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Ixian posted:I agree with you in that Martin certainly wants us to empathize with her, the problem is he just (in my opinion) ham-fisted it. After re-reading AFFC just recently I was again reminded just how many times he hammers in that she's an ugly, stubborn "wench", and little else. Well, she is a woman who has none of the attributes that are important for a woman in this society. She's ugly. She's not particularly clever. She's of noble birth, but of very minor one. She's lovely at any of the "womanly arts". Her redeeming qualities are her loyality, honor and amazing ability to fight, which are all great in men, but except the first two, which aren't really apparent until people know her better. For her world she is a freak and it is no wonder she has internalized this view of herself. She would have been less of a oddity and would have have a lot more self-esteem if she was born/lived in the North, Dorne or the Iron Islands, where women fighting isn't that uncommon (see the Mormonts, Sand Snakes, Asha Greyjoy). Ixian posted:The only thing she's got going for her is a sense of duty and honor, which leads her on a journey to find Catelyn Starks daughters because Catelyn was nice to her once for 5 minutes, and as I said before we all know that is just a waste of time because we know where the daughters are. And that's my problem with the story line summed up. It is a story that's now 10 years running, nearly as long as Don Quixote, but far less funny and far more boring and even more futile. We know that the only way she will find the girls is when they come out of hiding. Currently she doesn't really have a shot at being able to fulfill her promise barring a miracle (Arya coming back to Westeros and stumbling over her/a misstep by Littlefinger). Yeah, it shows us Westeros is a lovely place during/after the war. But we knew that already. Decius fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Jul 7, 2011 |
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Jul 7, 2011 08:25
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Ray_ posted:Seriously? She's throwing away the Dornish alliance to wed a loving Mereenese. She chose a lovely city in Slaver's Bay over Westeros. How. loving. Dumb. Another king/queen following the proud and successful example of Robb Stark.
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Jul 9, 2011 07:25
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I don't think that was pig meat Coldhands fed Bran & Company during the early book... Even if, there is a drat lot of cannibalism in this book. Eating humans - the new rape?
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Jul 14, 2011 12:33
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Hemp Knight posted:- The Jon and Dany chapters really didn't advance at all. I thought that by the end of this book, we'd have seen a massive army of wights and Others (who've turned thousands of the defeated wildlings into wights) attack and overrun the Wall as winter arrives in full force, and Dany would have finally sorted out Meereen and trained her dragons once Tyrion arrived, letting her set sail for Westeros. I agree with your point about Dany (and Tyrion), but Jon's part/the North/the Wall did progress quite a bit. quote:- Bran/Arya. I suppose they needed to progress rapidly for the next book, but having them learn as much as they did in just a couple of chapters each didn't feel natural at all. Agreed about Davos and Manderley (don't forget the delicious Frey pie), but clearly set up for Winds of Winter. A boy who gets fused to a tree/uncovers his magical abilities and a girl who learns to change her face aren't really persons whose learning needs to feel/be natural I think. quote:- Kevan. I suppose he had to go since he was one of the few people left who could hold Westeros together, but he was fairly cool once Tywin wasn't around to use him as a puppet and he could give Cersei a few ice burns in AFFC. Well, you surely can imagine what I think of Ser Kevan Lannister dying.
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Jul 14, 2011 13:51
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I actually enjoy Jon far more now that he starts to grow into his role as Lord Commander. Still has some whiny spells, but overall I liked it quite a bit.
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Jul 14, 2011 20:17
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Montasque posted:After reading Dance, it really hit me how pointless Feast truly was. AFFC was about four things: How much Cersei hosed things up and how much she brought the realm to the brink of ruin in just a few months, even alienating Jaime (whose growth was also an important point of AFFC). And of course about Brienne traveling the world. Third thing was the Ironborn voting Euron to be king and turning from the north to Highgarden territory. And the most important and in my opinion best part: Littlefinger gaining the Vale, showing Sansa how the world works and being creepy Thirtysomething having a boner for a fourteen year old girl. Only Brienne's story was pointless and boring because it is futile from the start and we know it. Jesus Louise posted:I didn't think I cared about Jeyne, but now I'm curious how much of her story gets told. Did Robb get her pregnant before he died or what? (That may have been answered in Feast, but I've only read it once and don't remember) You mean Jeyne Westerling? She drunk Moon Tea, so unlikely. Although it would be interesting what happend to her. Because the women that leaves Riverrun with her mother and father doesn't match up with her description in ASoS at all. But the fake Arya was Jeyne Poole. Decius fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 14, 2011 |
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Jul 14, 2011 21:13
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Cersei isn't pregnant, she's just getting fat from all the wine drinking and eating poo poo.
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Jul 14, 2011 21:17
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Oh, yeah, five things. I always forget Dorne. Because it's boring too. I disagree that Littlefinger, Jaime and Cersei could have been handled in just a few chapters in ADwD. That stuff did need some space to grow. And especially Cersei's actions will have pretty big repercussions for the fight against the Others and against Dany (arming the faith, appointing a completely lovely council, alienating the Tyrells, losing the fleet...)
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Jul 14, 2011 21:26
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Arrrthritis posted:It'd also be interesting to see if the TV show made a point to show the talking Weirwoods as well. They showed it once, when Bran was in the Godswood with Osha and Hodor, when he thought he heard his name. But people were probably distracted by Hodor's whorebane.
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Jul 15, 2011 06:23
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Darth Windu posted:The twins being Targaryens makes no sense at all. If Tywin was aware of it, why did he want Jaime to inherit so badly, and completely refused to countenance Tyrion getting the Rock? I think Tyrion being a secret Targaryen is a very interesting twist in and of itself. If any of the Lannisters turns out to be a secret Targ I would quit the series in an instant. Because it would completely ruin everything from the development of Jaime and Tyrion and their relationship with Tywin. Also, we really, really, really have enough secret Targs by now. With Jon Snow we are up to five surviving Targs when we thought there were two at the start of the series. If this trend continues we have more surviving Targs than we had Jedis surviving the Rise of the Empire (17 of them currently if I am not mistaken). Decius fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 08:06
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Tyrion being a Targ completely takes away the meaning of him trying to get the approval of Tywin. Of Tywin denying being his son. It ruins a storyline that run for three books. It ruins the culmination of the storyline. It would be a completely dumb move. Luckily it is as confirmed as Jon being the son of a fisherwoman of the Vale. And it does matter even if they are "Targ Bastards". Bastards can be legitimized easy enough by a king. "He is our last hope". "No, there is another. And if his sister fails too we take one of the other 15 Jedis. They are all better trained anyway." Yes, that seems like good storytelling to me.
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Jul 15, 2011 08:29
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Lawlicaust posted:No? That's just another rumor about Jon's mother. As far as we know, Ned is the only one who knows for absolute certainty who Jon's mother is. Howland Reed most likely knows and there are a few other maybes. Until there is an full reveal of Jon's mother by someone who actually knows or a Bran vision, then nothing is really confirmed. Yes, I meant with it that Tyrion's "secret Targ"-stuff is about as much hearsay and interpretation as the one about Jon's mother being a fisherwoman of the Vale. As in: Very, very unlikely.
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Jul 15, 2011 13:10
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Gully Foyle posted:Isn't it just chess with different names? Actually it sounds a lot like Xiangqi, which is both less abstract and more complex than Western chess.
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Jul 15, 2011 18:26
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Teenagers. That's why you don't let them rule more than a High School council meeting. See Jon Snow, Robb Stark and Joffrey Baratheon for additional examples of it. Yeah, she reminds me a lot of Cersei in her behaviour, an additional reason why I don't like the Mereen stuff. And unless she changes her tone when ruling Westeros she will have another usurper on her hands come next summer.
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Jul 15, 2011 20:30
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Don't forget, Dany's first reaction when she felt she was losing control was to get him the hell away from her. Robb's was, "Hey, let's get married even though it's going to be a huge loving disaster!" Well, at least Robb's reasons were somewhat understandable. He was wounded and Jeyne cared for him, which led to sex. Being his father's son, and not wanting to make his mistake too (fathering a Bastard - as if Moon Tea doesn't exist), he did the "honourable" thing and married her. Breaking his vow to the Freys in the process, but Robb is apparently blind like that. Stupid, but at least Robb's reason was somewhat rooted in his personality/upbringing. Dany's string of decisions was simply flailing around and coming off like a crazy, brutal, unpredictable dictator (one day lopping off heads and taking away traditions, the next day feeding starving refugees with plague) like Cersei did. Robb made some stupid decisions, but at least he was consequent in his behaviour. Of course additionally either the whole thing with Jeyne was set up by Tywin Lannister or Jeyne's father saw the opportunity and made a deal with Tywin after the marriage. Still, I wonder what's up with the apparently fake Jeyne that left Riverrun with the Westerlings (as her description differs very much from the one in ASoS - good, wide hips and a nice rack became "a wisp of a girl").
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Jul 16, 2011 07:32
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The Ninth Layer posted:One thing I noticed was that occasionally some esoteric word like "vainglorious" would be dropped into a chapter and then the same word would get repeated in the very next chapter. Happened a few times and it's something I noticed in his previous books too. "Words are Wind" and "if she looked back" are the "half a groat" and "nuncle" of 2011. Suddenly everyone in the book uses the phrase. I actually like "words are wind", but seeing it a couple of dozen times makes it annoying.
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Jul 16, 2011 09:01
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Darth Windu posted:Roose/Ramsay: I do not see why people think they are unbelievably evil. Roose doesn't seem any worse than, say, Tywin Lannister. He is not shown as being cruel in any manner. He is simply utilitarian to a terrifying degree. He raped Ramsey's mother under the hanging body of her husband under the pretext that they didn't ask for his permission. Because he fancied her.
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Jul 16, 2011 11:34
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NihilCredo posted:I thought this was one of GRRM's trademark "make a word sound medieval by stepping back once or twice through the etymology" tricks (see also: "break one's fast", "morrow"), but the French word has always been simply "sergent" Both "break the fast" and "morrow" are real words/phrases though. Just not used much nowadays (breakfast comes from breaking the fast). Serjant is like Ser a different phonetic spelling of the normal word.
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Jul 16, 2011 12:17
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Master Kush posted:So let me get this strait. George made a football bet and lost so he had to write in a pats fan. The pats fan, Ser "Pat"rek, was the guy who got the poo poo beat out of him by the giant (his favorite team). Good one George! It's not exactly uncommon for authors to put friends or family into cameos. Or sometimes they auction it off for a charity. Terry Pratchett has done it several times, Brandon Sanderson too if you read the annotations to his books. A few of capital L literature authors too (their publisher was always a favourite of early 20th century German authors for example, Unseld appeared more or less disguised in at least a dozen books).
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Jul 17, 2011 08:09
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SelfOM posted:The whole Jon death is cheap. Makes no sense for Bowen et. al to kill him then, and the rationale for them doing it is stupid. Winning over the wildings makes sense, preventing the creation of more zombies makes sense, killing your sworn brother surrounded by people who will likely seek vengeance is not rational. Why couldn't they wait until he leaves with the wildings, and hopes he dies? Jon tried to use the Night's Watch to meddle in the affairs of the realm by riding to Winterfell to rescue "Arya" - and he skirted the line already before. I can see their point, especially if they think Bolton has won and the NW would be in deep poo poo with him if Jon attacks him, but two Lord Commanders killed by their own men in a row nearly qualifies as tradition.
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Jul 17, 2011 16:51
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literallyincredible posted:the one thing that makes me think Aegon might not be fake is that Varys portrays him as legit before he kills Kevan. why lie to a dead man? Yeah, that's also the main reason why I think he is legit. Of course I also think Littlefinger will kill him off pretty quickly, as he would probably make short work of his plans.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:26
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Ray_ posted:No, he wasn't using the Night's Watch for that. He was sending them to Hardhome and he was going to Winterfell by himself. It was an important distinction that he made, in his mind at least. Jon might have deluded himself into "it's just me", but that doesn't mean the others see it the same way. He is the Lord Commander after all, and even if he alienated a lot of people he also has people who follow him (even if he sent many of them away). Caesar might really have had the notion to give back his power as Dictator after he "fixed" the Roman Republic, but that didn't stop the Senators from stabbing him because they feared he would make himself king.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:33
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Cervixalot posted:Am I crazy for saying this book suffered without Sansa/Littlefinger? No, I feel the same. Especially in AFFC the Sansa chapter became some of my favourite, even the ASOS/ACOK were pretty good the Dontos-stuff aside. But then, I also liked the Cat-chapters this time around. Rather 50 chapters of Littlefinger teaching Sansa how to play the game and creep out over a fourteen year old than Dany loving things up and pining for Daario.
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Jul 17, 2011 20:17
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Fried Chicken posted:The only thing that can stop them is dragons. Not the only thing of course, as Westeros didn't have dragons the last time. Obsidian still works too, as do fire and swords (in lieu of shotguns) against the wights. Wildfyre would be pretty useful too I'd wager. But having a dragon is like bringing an A-10 to the Siege of Vienna (1584).
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Jul 18, 2011 07:16
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mcable posted:Like I compared with Indiana Jones, I think ADWD is coasting on the goodwill and positive word of mouth of the rest of the series. Else, I can't figure out why there is such overwhelming critical acclaim for a book that is a fairly big step down from the first three. 2/3 loving awesome + 1/3 boring, medicore still makes a pretty great book. The Blackwater and Tyrion/Arya aside ACoK was worse in my opinion. The major complaint about ADWD for me is the lack of a climax/payoff.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:29
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whowhatwhere posted:Why does everyone think Dany's going to head for Westeros from Meereen? I'm pretty sure she's got to get to Asshai first. While I would love to see Asshai (as long as it isn't as boring as Meereen), I don't think it's possible to do it and her going to Westeros and gently caress poo poo up there in just two books. Of course, it could always be that Dany never actually goes to Westeros and Jon Snow & Westeros deals with all the Others-stuff themselves, while Dany erects her little South-Eastern Empire and goes "screw Westeros, nobody wants that cold poo poo-hole anyway". Littlefinger becomes the King on the Iron Throne. His reign was long and peaceful, the whores plentiful, his enemies died quickly.
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Jul 18, 2011 13:41
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Sexpansion posted:I am a huge Martin fanboy and I pretty much agree with even the most ridiculous praise, but I think it's silly not to recognize that if there weren't a TV show, the book wouldn't be getting all these rave reviews. It's the increased cultural awareness that's driving this, not the quality of the books. His stuff wouldn't be reviewed by a lot of mainstream media if it wasn't for the show, that's for sure. Roark posted:Martin isn't Faulkner, but he's still light years ahead of 99% of contemporary sci-fi and fantasy writers when it comes to writing. Put it at 80 %. Abercrombie, Lynch (if he writes something), Bakker (love him or hate him), Sanderson, Wolfe, Guy Gavriel Kay are some I would put into the same league, even if their scope isn't as epic.
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Jul 18, 2011 18:12
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Regarding the Lannister inheritance from earlier - would Devan stand a chance to get it? Because he seems a pretty chill guy from his conversations with Jaime.
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Jul 19, 2011 06:14
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Groke posted:Much and more. Much and more. He was not wrong.
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Jul 19, 2011 11:36
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Kainser posted:e; I'm disappointed that we haven't seen one of the raptors that Syrio mentioned seeing. They were otherwise engaged Skagos at least has a ruling house so they are somewhat civilized. I always pictured them being a lot like the Thenns. Decius fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 13:28
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NihilCredo posted:On the other side, the Tysha = Sailor's Wife theory got somewhat boosted now by the fact that her daughter was named "Lanna". That's really a theory? Not everyone from the past needs to get famous. I rather see her as some beggar or some crofter's wife or dead than a famous whore we've already encountered.
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Jul 19, 2011 16:27
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Kainser posted:He's just that dedicated to destroying Tommen's enemies man. Is there anyone in the Seven Kingdoms who doesn't see through this (the church excepted)? The Small Council wasn't composed of the most intelligent people right now (Kevan excepted), but even they realised what was up.
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Jul 19, 2011 18:04
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FairGame posted:Who's the Khal that found her? I didn't do a re-read of anything before Dance, so it's been like 6 years since I read anything. Jhago, who took the largest part of Drogo's Horde. They didn't part on good terms. She swore something like "when we meet again you wish for what you gave the girl you raped and killed".
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Jul 19, 2011 18:29
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Or he simply likes the boy who lived 15 years in his household? No reason to automatically assume some blood relationship. Aegon being the real deal seems far more poignant to me when he dies horribly or fails hilariously at being a leader.
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Jul 19, 2011 19:10
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Substar posted:How is Jon definitively Azor Ahai? The propecy states: "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." The only person that fits that description, and fits it to the letter, is Dany. The common theory is: smoke: the mist from his wounds salt: Bowen Marsh tears star: the symbol of Ser Patrek Maybe TPWWP and Azor Ahai are different people? meanolmrcloud posted:I can't be the only person who does not like aryas current arc. The Faceless Men are pretty clearly only her means to get training. After she has that she won't stay with them for sure. That's why I'm not really worried about her current arc - it's just a temporary thing for her, all the stuff about her not being able to let go of "Arya" is a clear indication for this. Decius fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jul 19, 2011 |
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Jul 19, 2011 19:45
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whalestory posted:It was just as dumb as when yoren cut her hair and sandor smacked her in the back of the head I never understood why anyone thought it was a "fake death" when Sandor smashed her with the axe. It seemed pretty clear to me that the intended thing was to make it unclear if Sandor wanted to bring her to Roose instead of to her mother. Because in the chapters before he refuses to say where they are going.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:23
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hypocrite lecteur posted:Why does Tyrion keep telling people he killed joffrey? Just because he doesn't care and it's going to be laid at his feet anyways? The evidence points to the Tyrells otherwise doesn't it Because he thinks Sansa did it and he wants to protect her. Also he already told Jaime to hurt him, so why not stick with the story? And I like the Arya chapters too, especially during her "Cat of the Canals" personality. Camel oval office never gets old.
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Jul 19, 2011 20:31
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:So Dany, you went up to a man with tons of history in Meereen and tons of personal connections to your enemies, who you don't really know much of anything about at all, and offered to make him to most powerful man in the realm? And your price was 90 days of peace from the DAILY murders and attacks, and somehow, even though it was already his loving job to keep the peace, attacks drop off completely and instantaneously once you make this request? BOY, THAT'S NOT loving SUSPICIOUS AT ALL. What exactly was it she even thought he did do to stop the attacks? She doesn't seem too curious about how it happened. It's not like this was pointed out repeatedly by several characters in the book however. Hell, it was one the reasons why Barristan and the Shavepate decided to take the king into custody after all. It's hardly "plot stupidity" when it is done consciously and deliberately. euphronius posted:The smart way to be a foreign conqueror is to co-opt the local elites and make them rule for you. She could have done it better though. Freeing the slaves was dumb. Marrying Hizdahr could have worked. Yeah, take India for example. Most (rural) Indians didn't know or realise that the British were actually calling the shots until they left (and then only because suddenly there was elections and poo poo). Decius fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 18:09
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hhhmmm posted:Ned made a point of always inviting different subjects to his table to listen, learn, and promote loyalty.. and not create too much of a distance. Yes, but notice he invites them to his table, he doesn't sit down on theirs. He elevates them up to be a guest of their Lord, not sitting himself down to be "one of them". I think Jon should have done the same instead of eating alone (or do it like Captain Jack Aubrey in Patrick O'Brian's series: invite the Lieutenant and a Midshipman from the last watch to breakfast most days. It makes it "reward" (good food) for your night duty), but that's too late now. Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I think nipples on a breastplate is used twice, it just seems jarring because the usage is 2-3 chapters apart. It's used four times in AFFC already too, so it's not like it just appeared with ADWD. "Words are Wind" too, by the way, used twice in ASOS, used six times in AFFC. Decius fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 21, 2011 06:38
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Sweet As Sin posted:The thing I'm the most interested in, though, did Arya warg into a cat? or was that my imagination? She did, and I thought it was very clearly spelled out, it was how she knew that the Kindly Man was the one attacking her.
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Jul 21, 2011 07:34
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