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Actually sorkins meltdown started in Season 3. Lowe admitted on the Jonathan Ross show here in the UK that he left because the writing was on the wall for the show and he didn't like how it was heading. I don't think that an actor who's a small part of a large ensemble was so perturbed by being a small part of a large ensemble that he also stayed for 4 seasons. I love Sorkin, but he hosed himself. Scripts were coming in late and he was holding up production with the mistaken belief there was nothing they could do. That's on top of the copious drug use. He was a nightmare to work with but a great writer. I don't envy John Wells one bit. He hard a hard job to follow up Sorkin and actually pulled out some great episodes from season 6 onwards. I just think he sometimes focused on the big stories instead of the characters. That's not to say Sorkin was perfect. He has a terrible habit of dropping stories when it suits him.
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Jul 7, 2011 20:43
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The Gunslinger posted:I feel bad for the actress because you can tell the writers had no clue what her role was supposed to be. Toby is in charge of communications, CJ in goaltending the press and Mandy is supposed to be spearheading some early image/re-election thing that is never fleshed out very well. It's also impossible to take her very seriously because she looks like shes 22 and has no official position with the administration. Finally, shes never given any funny lines to work with to contrast the tough political operator routine they tried to have her do. It's amazing seeing Season 1 again how they manage to fade out her character. She all but vanishes halfway through and barely pops up again. Again I can't really fault John Wells. He and his writers had a horrible task when Sorkin left. There was a writers roundtable during awards Season and both Sorkin and Wells were there. I was expecting conflict but Sorkin was very gracious to Wells. Wells brings up a great point in one of the commentaries though to Sorkin when he says that Sorkin simply cannot write an antagonist. One of the great crimes in Studio 60 is that they neuter Steven Weber's character very quickly. He would've made a great antagonist, but instead he occasionally meddles to no end. While I'm ripping on that show (Mainly because it highlights the worst of Sorkin), there's an episode where the big 3 leads of the show are unable to make it. So one of the peripheral characters gets his chance to shine. By the end he's realised it's too hard, and he's just as drat good as those guys. It plays right into Sorkin's annoying habit of placing the brilliant up on pedestals and hailing them as largely infallible. They might make mistakes, but it all works out at the end because they're simply the best of the best. He exhibits some of this in The West Wing too. Though his worst habit there is picking up and dropping plots on a whim. The Charlie/Zoe relationship is one of the worst offenders. It completely vanishes until they set her up to be kidnapped at the end of Season 4.
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Jul 20, 2011 15:44
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thexerox123 posted:What exactly was the behind-the-scenes reason for Danny disappearing for such a long time? Sorkin didn't know how else to use him? Danny, like Zoe, goes from being a character to a Sorkin plot point when they're needed.
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Jul 20, 2011 21:44
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HORATIO HORNBLOWER posted:Here's my thing. (Besides all the other problems with this plotline that have already been mentioned.) There's a plotline early on--season one or two, I can't recall--where some information is deliberately withheld from CJ so she has plausible deniability in front of the press. CJ is ticked and I think it's resolved not to do that anymore because she's a valued member of the team and hugs for everyone, etc. But when we're talking about a super secret military space vehicle--what reason would CJ have to have access for that information? And for that matter, what reason would Toby? She's the press secretary; he's in charge of communications. Unless they were planning on announcing that the vehicle existed--which, clearly, they weren't--then there isn't any plausible reason why either or both of those people would have access to that information. I'm not exactly an expert on information security, but that seems obvious, right? Actually they withhold the information from her because Toby says she's seen as being too close to the press. She gets pissed off because it looks like she's lied to them. Yes Toby being the leak is bullshit, and Richard Schiff is smart enough to play it differently than the writers intended him to but the show has always been inconsistent with its own characters, to varying degrees. I'm rewatching the show again and it's frustrating how Sorkin will pick up and drop plots when he needs them. To be fair to Sorkin though he has admitted that plotting was never his strong point. I still hate his treatment of Hoynes though, he constantly got the short shrift. Gary Cole didn't exactly fair much better either (Though I know that's not a Sorkin issue). Interestingly enough Sorkin admitted he was due to leave the show after 100 episodes, which would've placed it at roughly mid-Season 5. He had an idea of where he wanted the characters to go but I don't think he had anything concrete planned for them. It sucks he had to leave when he did, but at the same time he basically hosed himself so my pity only runs so far. And I hate the Josh Vs the Message Board episode, if only because the rest of the episode is pretty great and that subplot just drags it down.
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Apr 22, 2012 15:24
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Yeah I think it's fair to say that Season 4 is arguably the worst that Sorkin did. It's not bad by any means, but there's maybe the feeling that the wheels were coming off. Going by what was happening behind the scenes I'd say it was a fair assessment. I think I've mentioned this before but when Rob Lowe was on a chat show here in the UK he was asked about why he left and he was very diplomatic but said that there were behind the scenes issues and he felt the writing was on the wall for the show. For those who don't know Sorkin had a pretty substantial drug habit at the time and was often writing scripts throughout the night when he was high. This wouldn't really be an issue but he was also turning in scripts late, and throughout Season 3/Season 4 he was delaying production because they weren't ready. Production is still paid for whether they're shooting or not, and as it was the shooting schedule was being pushed further and further back and the cost of the season was escalating. Sorkin was warned on occasion but obviously it fell on deaf ears and he was sacked. I did read that he wrote the cliffhanger of Season 4 just to gently caress with them, but on the commentaries he does mention some things he wanted to do for Season 5 so I got no idea whether that's true or not. As it is Sorkin was due to leave midway through Season 5 anyway as that's when his contract was up and he didn't seem likely to sign up for more, so the show was definitely intended to continue without him. John Wells even asked him to come back for the final season and write some episodes but Sorkin declined because he'd be writing for characters he didn't know, however it was rumoured he consulted on the end. Also on the Sorkin talk. It's amusing he's now working for HBO given that they were one of the studios who wanted to buy up Sports Night and/or The West Wing but Sorkin felt they'd get the bigger audience on network TV.
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May 26, 2012 23:45
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SpaceDrake posted:So I'm curious, is this streaming legally anywhere? I don't quite have the scratch to throw at the full box set, but I'd love to watch a few episodes I remember being great. I think Amazon stream it don't they? On that note there are some uh...rips out there that have all the Seasons in widescreen and HD. 'Two Cathedrals' looks so much better in 16x9.
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May 27, 2012 11:34
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myron cope posted:And the death penalty one, so josh can still say No, Burt Lincoln! But otherwise yeah, she sucks. She does. But they realise it so by the end of that season she's barely in it. If you look at her role during the back-nine she hardly factors. I do love though that no one addresses where she went. Still the biggest cringe worthy moment for me is, when I introduce people to the show, you have to sit through her intro. Everything about it is so unbelievably 90's. The music, the camera angle. It just screams 'Attitude'.
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Jun 7, 2012 20:15
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Going back a few posts now, but Mandy was completely terrible in every regard and entirely lacking in redeemable qualities. However, it makes me wonder what the hell Sorkin/Wells/Schlamme thought would happen when they wrote a character who is completely terrible in every regard and entirely lacking in redeemable qualities. How could they have ever thought that the audience would connect with her? Gus from Breaking Bad is more endearing than that woman. Her whole character trait was 'sassy 90s chick' who just always seemed to win over Josh. It also highlights the worst of Sorkin, in which we're supposed to just accept a character is something because other characters say they are. She, for some reason, has Josh and Sam scared of her for seemingly no reason. There is a moment where I liked her and it's early in the season. It's just her and Josh talking in his office. She drops the sass and they just have a conversation and surprise surprise she's absolutely fine, but then she reverts to type almost straight away. Nothing at all against Moria Kelly, it's really not her fault. Meryl Streep could be playing Mandy and she'd still be a terrible character.
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Jun 8, 2012 20:25
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To bring back up a slightly older discussion. I just happened to watch THE PORTLAND TRIP, which has that Donna/Ainsley scene and...I don't see the subtext that people are talking about. Only because I think people are ignoring the context of it. Donna sees Ainsley because she's bored and she's restless and as she says, there's no one else around. And later when she mentions the date to Josh, she points out that he was basically just a dick. All Donna does is make a joke about their appearance, that's all. If you take the scene in isolation then...sure, maybe? But it's not written that way and it's not delivered that way. Also, one of the sad things about watching the show now is how much of a fantasy it feels like. There's still a hopefulness and idealism that I find kind of moving but it seems such a huge leap from where the world is now.
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Mar 7, 2017 22:06
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blunt posted:More importantly he thoroughly debunked the "Donna's date thought he was going out with Ainsley" theory. It's still such a weird theory and relies on people ignoring both context and half the lines that the actors are saying. Coming to the end of S2. It's interesting that Oliver Platt is taller than everyone he's in a scene with (He practically towers over Stockard Channing), because visually it gives the impression that he's the most important person in the room, which he arguably is. DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 26, 2017 19:47
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Yeah to be fair to Lowe, at a certain point they weren't even including him on publicity photos. Like yeah he thought that Sam was going to be the lead role and I think he was fine being part of an ensemble until Sorkin had a lot less for him to do. I'm part the way through S3 again now and Sam is just sort of...I guess off to the side? For his part, he has also said that by the time they got to S4 that he thought the writing was on the wall for Sorkin (By this point he was regularly holding back production because he couldn't turn scripts in on time) and so thought the writing was on the wall for the show.
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Apr 3, 2017 21:38
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algebra testes posted:We are also starting to get to the point where the burnout begins and the episode quality begins to dip. Not that they aren't still good but definately less memorable. I actually really like Season 3 so far. It's always the season I remember the least about (Which maybe says something), but I like that the walls are starting to close in. The early episodes are great for it: people gently caress up, and they don't know what to do for once.
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Apr 6, 2017 20:44
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I forget, but is it ever mentioned who Bartlett actually beats the first time around?
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Apr 8, 2017 11:25
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thrawn527 posted:I love the actor interviews, and I love hearing how they got the part. Rob Lowe's story about signing the contract while in costuming the day before shooting was great. And Dule Hill talking about wearing the same thing to the second audition because, hell, it worked the first time. And Richard Schiff talking about how terrible he is at auditions, and how the room was already prepped for that. That stuff is great. Honestly I've liked most of the interviews from everyone they've talked to. It's addressed in the oral history of the show, but does Schiff or Sorkin talk about how - of all people - Eugene Levy was the frontrunner for the part of Toby? Even Sorkin said he was fantastic in the audition, but Schiff played the part differently than anyone else did.
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Apr 11, 2017 22:11
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One thing I miss on the post-Sorkin years is obviously his writing, but it's also the guiding hand of Tommy Schlame. There's less confidence in the directing and it looks like any other TV show. Anyway, NIGHT FIVE in S3 is a pretty interesting episode given today's current climate. Toby writes the speech condemning Islamic fanatics and basically he's told to 'Not all Muslims' the speech. It's a tricky situation and I like that there's no easy answer. Also, it's Adam Arkin's last appearance I think. And that's a shame because he's great.
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Apr 24, 2017 20:19
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thrawn527 posted:Nah, he has two more appearances after that. Posse Comitatus near the end of season 3, and Holy Night at Christmas time in season 4. Excellent. I wasn't sure but I couldn't remember. I think Arkin is probably the best recurring guest star they had, both for the energy that Arkin brought, and the fact that the character isn't subject to that same awe everyone has when faced with the President. It makes those scenes play out a lot differently.
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Apr 25, 2017 07:10
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Forgot to mention in NIGHT FIVE, it has probably one of the worst things Sorkin has written, where Sam compliments Ainsley and a staffer is bothered by it. The argument itself isn't all that bad. You know Sam and know that he means it affectionately towards a friend, but then Sorkin puts the counter-point in Ainsley's mouth instead and it really sounds like he just wanted to lecture people on what feminism could be. Usually Sorkin wraps up the points he wants to make in great dialogue, but everything in that scene is extraordinarily on the nose. And to top it off moments before Sam is laughing at Charlie because he lost a basketball game to his sister
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Apr 25, 2017 17:08
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The first time I saw that episode I thought wow thats powerful stuff, so it's sad to see it doesn't hold up well at all. It kind of makes CJ ignorant and insufferable. And then you have that weird ending where Nancy has to talk her down and it just ends up looking like CJ is some hysterical woman. The only thing I do like is that it fits the theme of season 3, which is for all their ideologically, they still have to do lovely things because that's the way the world works.
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Jun 1, 2017 10:35
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thrawn527 posted:Yeah, I especially hate the scene with the WWII vets. Like, I get why you're mad CJ, but your fight is not with them, why are you trying to make them feel lovely? Yeah with all that it feels like there should be bigger consequences for CJ. Or really she shouldn't be in that situation at all. I think on watching it again it tends to ring false because Sorkin doesn't really care about carrying these things on across episodes. His characters are all consistent, but something they care about this week isn't necessarily the thing they'll care about in two weeks time. But like Josh said in the podcast, it's one of those episodes where Sorkin just tries to do everything in 42 minutes.
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Jun 1, 2017 14:28
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Khablam posted:I'm glad they both bounced hard off the idea of making up generic countries to fill a stereotype. Qumar & Equatorial Kundu are lovely stand ins. I like that they note that CJ is thoroughly less concerned about the Native Americans and their issues in the previous episode. If anything she's slightly bemused by it. Yet now, she's going off the rails with concern. I can see why they would consider putting the argument in Sam's mouth instead because it should be an ideological argument: The US is making deals with some really lovely people. Instead though it's an argument about women, and as a result CJ just starts to sound hysterical while everyone else has to explain that's just the way things are done. Until of course another woman has to come along and explain things. I think if the argument was made by Sam, and it was more about them being an oppressive and violent regime then it might've worked better than it did.
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Jun 3, 2017 22:55
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Ron Silver was a gift and it's a shame they didn't use him more. Also, as amusing as it is that Sorkin drops Mandy, everyone forgets about Gianelli's team. Also, I have to think his performance here got Mark Harmon that NCIS gig.
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Jul 14, 2017 20:07
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