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mycot posted:Only barely related but I remember "we're focused on fun not balance" being said the developers of Jojo All Star Battle, and what happened there? Was character balance even the biggest problem with that game? I think that had something to do with the framerate - someone asked why it only ran at 30FPS and they said "we want it to be a better Jojo game more than a good fighting game" or something but oops it wasn't either of those things!
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Apr 13, 2016 05:01
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i love nasty okizeme, strong mixup, and resets also, good normals are good to me personally, i like them NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 05:03
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Zand posted:balance and devs obsessing with achieving perfect balance are one of the critical failures of this era of fg what about mvc3 tho
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Apr 13, 2016 05:08
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TheManSeries posted:Hi yes, I quit playing both Akatsuki and Uniel once I found out he was literally the worst character. He's high tier in ST coming west never
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Apr 13, 2016 05:19
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But Guilty Gear is balanced and diverse??? The unicorn......
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Apr 13, 2016 05:19
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attackmole posted:But Guilty Gear is balanced and diverse??? The unicorn...... Try playing pot v sin, elphelt, or venom sometime.
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Apr 13, 2016 05:23
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Pomp posted:Try playing pot v sin, elphelt, or venom sometime. There's few things as demoralizing as watching a GG tournament and Danger Time activating in a Pot vs Sin match. Even the commentators sound crushed. Admittedly it would break my heart if Pot mains dropped the character. Thankfully most Pot mains seem to be completely insane nutters, and I love them for that.
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Apr 13, 2016 05:30
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attackmole posted:But Guilty Gear is balanced and diverse??? The unicorn...... arcsys is one of the only devs that seems to be capable of having characters that feel strong without their game being an unbalanced mess. but even then problem matchups that are worse than the worst matchups in other games come about because of this. but since each character in gg is generally capable of so much more than the characters of other games, the matchups tend to have a lot more nuance also since the characters are capable of doing so much in arcsys games, character specialists can take basically any character extremely far. this is seen mostly in older games like ST where some characters have many many options
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Apr 13, 2016 06:52
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The worst part of Jojo ASB is that it was worse at handling fanservice than Heritage for the Future. In addition to having a worse framerate, worse controls, worse mechanical problems, worse universal systems, etc. Like, the difference between how timestop is handled in ASB (Road Roller gets an extra cutscene vs. Jotaro) vs. HftF (time stop is a sandbox of emergent mechanics that let you recreate scenes from the comics at will or make your own cool interactions) speaks wonders at what qualifies for "fanservice" nowadays.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:26
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I think emergence can lead to balence but balence will never lead to emergence.
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Apr 13, 2016 09:33
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Zand posted:balance and devs obsessing with achieving perfect balance are one of the critical failures of this era of fg I don't buy the argument that balance = non-diverse characters. Some of the most balanced games of this modern era have more diverse characters than the unbalanced ones. Guilty Gear is reasonably balanced and has a diverse set of characters. Skullgirls is reasonably balanced and has an extremely diverse roster as well. Developers can do both. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 12:54
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punk rebel ecks posted:I don't buy the argument that balance = non-diverse characters. Some of the most balanced games of this modern era have more diverse characters than the unbalanced ones. Guilty Gear is reasonably balanced and has a diverse set of characters. Skullgirls is reasonably balanced and has an extremely diverse roster as well. Developers can do both. Someone who knows more about gg than me just said gg has devastatingly bad matchups
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Apr 13, 2016 13:00
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dangerdoom volvo posted:Someone who knows more about gg than me just said gg has devastatingly bad matchups Well I've heard differently from other people who play the game. Regardless there are still other games, like Skullgirls, that have very diverse characters and not terrible matchups. The reason why games of today focus more on balancing is so that people don't end up using the same four or five characters all the time.
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Apr 13, 2016 13:08
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Pomp posted:Try playing pot v sin, elphelt, or venom sometime. except for pot*. Nothing's gonna ever be perfect, you just hope everyone's pretty viable and that's good enough for me/probably as good as you're gonna get. 'Balanced' doesn't have to mean micro adjusting everything till everyone is perfectly equal. I think it's just a reasonable goal to try to avoid blatantly shittacular characters.
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Apr 13, 2016 13:28
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I'd be interested in knowing if roster size was also a big factor when it comes to balance. If the reaction to SF5 is any indication It seems like a people expect huge rosters right out the gate but I feel like smaller rosters would make it easier to gauge how everyone matches up against each other.
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Apr 13, 2016 13:35
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Well yeah absolutely big games tend to have worse balance. That's not rocket science. But big rosters are also a selling point and having lots of choice is fun soooo.... There's a happy medium somewhere in this ideological battle. People also always are grumpy out of the gate when they're playing 'Fighting game 3: super complete edition' and then 'fighting game 4:the new one' comes out and has half the roster size because it hasn't had expansions dumped on it for the last decade, even though it's inevitable. CRISPYBABY fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 13:51
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Monk E posted:I'd be interested in knowing if roster size was also a big factor when it comes to balance. If the reaction to SF5 is any indication It seems like a people expect huge rosters right out the gate but I feel like smaller rosters would make it easier to gauge how everyone matches up against each other. SF4's balance was alright for having such a large roster at least by the end of Ultra. Still some problems, but far less so than mvc2.
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Apr 13, 2016 14:06
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attackmole posted:except for pot*. Agreed. attackmole posted:Well yeah absolutely big games tend to have worse balance. That's not rocket science. But big rosters are also a selling point and having lots of choice is fun soooo.... I feel it depends on the game. A game like Marvel or Smash is meant to have a huge amount of playable characters due to all of the IPs invovled, Guilty Gear has a lot of legacy characters they need to incorporate but also need to make new ones as well so they can't afford to have a starting roster of ten or so, a new IP however has the luxury of not needing to start out with around two dozen characters right out the gate because they don't have any legacy character to work with.
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Apr 13, 2016 14:08
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As long as a low tier character has something that makes them enjoyable to play or watch then it's okay (Phoenix Wright) There's a stereotype where balanced = boring and that shouldn't have to be true
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Apr 13, 2016 14:23
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Fighting games should always have a few bad characters because good players clowning on other players while using bad characters is always going to be hype (see: the guy who played rocket raccoon in UMVC3, justin wong beating all of britain with servbot, kuroda using everyone in 3S)
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Apr 13, 2016 14:35
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Yea I can certainly agree that every fighting game having a Sullgirls sized cast in exchange for maybe being more balanced wouldn't be a particularly good tradeoff. I was mainly Interested in how much testing there was that dealt with how characters interact with each other and if cast size influenced how much of it could be done.
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Apr 13, 2016 14:50
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Cat Machine posted:justin wong beating all of britain with servbot) I didn't know this happened and now I'm watching this match and spitting out my coffee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHFCNN1nLcw It's around the 6 minute mark if you haven't seen it before.
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Apr 13, 2016 15:02
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attackmole posted:except for pot*. Hey you can't bring up Zelda vs. Bayonetta as ruining a game then say Pot doesn't count. 
mycot fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 15:10
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I.....didn't? (I did vaguely mention Sonic being so lovely in Brawl that I quit playing him so you might be confusing me with one of the other dudes who mentioned Smash's lovely balance)
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Apr 13, 2016 15:18
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There's an old article by Sirlin about how GG's cast manages to be so diverse and still fairly (outside a few problem matchups) balanced. The general thrust is, GG has a wide suite of universal defensive mechanics, so no matter how crazy and diverse the cast's offense is every character has an answer. Sirlin can be a jackass about basically everything, but he definitely puts a lot of thought into game design. I'm really looking forward to the fighting game he's working on.
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Apr 13, 2016 15:38
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Sirlin can be a jackass about basically everything, but he definitely puts a lot of thought into game design. I'm really looking forward to the fighting game he's working on. There's a playable alpha of that out there somewhere but I heard it's pretty bad in its current state
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Apr 13, 2016 16:45
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dhamster posted:There's a playable alpha of that out there somewhere but I heard it's pretty bad in its current state Yeah, you get early access to it, and all of his board/card game stuff, if you sign up for his patreon (lol, not happening). Everything he's said about the game in his podcasts and articles make it sound pretty interesting, like he's trying to hit some bizarre sweet spot between ST and Divekick. Yomi, Puzzle Strike, and even the absurdly pretentious Chess 2 all turned out pretty drat good in the end, so here's hoping.
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Apr 13, 2016 17:15
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Afaik you have one normal attack button, two one-button special attacks and a one-button super, and the buttons do different things in the air. Characters have something like 8~10 discrete hit points and most attacks take off one HP. The big golem guy has a lot of HP, all the female characters have very little. Throw inputs are similar to ST and there's no high-low blocking. In practice the gameplay looks kind of clunky and weird, but it could just seem that way because the art looks really, really bad right now. The game is still in early development right now, so I am probably being unfair. I'd say rising thunder does what sirlin is trying to do better, but rip edit: http://www.sirlin.net/fantasystrike dhamster fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 18:02
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dhamster posted:all the female characters have very little 
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Apr 13, 2016 18:09
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Yeah, that sounds really lovely.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:10
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wasn't sirlin's game supposed to be made by the rising thunder devs when rising thunder was finished or something
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Apr 13, 2016 18:10
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I looked at BBCF and found out the newest as yet unreleased character is a big tittied girl who is actually five years old and is literally named Embryo Storage Thanks for listening
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Apr 13, 2016 18:14
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I want to get a second fight stick for bullet hells and so guests don't have to suffer my hitbox. If PC comparability is the only console I care about, is the TE2+ still the correct option?
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Apr 13, 2016 18:14
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dhamster posted:Afaik you have one normal attack button, two one-button special attacks and a one-button super, and the buttons do different things in the air. Characters have something like 8~10 discrete hit points and most attacks take off one HP. The big golem guy has a lot of HP, all the female characters have very little. Throw inputs are similar to ST and there's no high-low blocking. In practice the gameplay looks kind of clunky and weird, but it could just seem that way because the art looks really, really bad right now. The game is still in early development right now, so I am probably being unfair. sounds like the actual sweet spot betwen ST and divekick is "literally just ST"
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Apr 13, 2016 18:14
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well ST is really good so I'm ok with that.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:17
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dhamster posted:Afaik you have one normal attack button, two one-button special attacks and a one-button super, and the buttons do different things in the air. Characters have something like 8~10 discrete hit points and most attacks take off one HP. The big golem guy has a lot of HP, all the female characters have very little. Throw inputs are similar to ST and there's no high-low blocking. In practice the gameplay looks kind of clunky and weird, but it could just seem that way because the art looks really, really bad right now. The game is still in early development right now, so I am probably being unfair. Wait, so, I don't know who is playable in the current build but Setsuki, Jaina, and Valerie should be loosely modeled after Ibuki, Sagat, and Fei Long. Ibuki having low health makes sense, but the other two is kinda strange. I hadn't heard about the discreet hit points before; I assume Sirlin got the idea from Pocket Rumble, but I haven't heard him mention that game at all.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:23
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AnonSpore posted:I looked at BBCF and found out the newest as yet unreleased character is a big tittied girl who is actually five years old and is literally named Embryo Storage Dizzy married and had a child at the ripe old age of 3
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Apr 13, 2016 18:25
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dragon enthusiast posted:Dizzy married and had a child at the ripe old age of 3 And the kid is named Sin! Honestly the big tittied girl part is just par for the course but Embryo Storage. Really.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:28
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AnonSpore posted:I looked at BBCF and found out the newest as yet unreleased character is a big tittied girl who is actually five years old and is literally named Embryo Storage
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Apr 13, 2016 18:29
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Looking forward to the new male character Sperm Injector
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Apr 13, 2016 18:35
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