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AnonSpore posted:Looking forward to the new male character Sperm Injector I wonder what his IK is gonna be?
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Apr 13, 2016 18:43
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Serenade posted:I want to get a second fight stick for bullet hells and so guests don't have to suffer my hitbox. If PC comparability is the only console I care about, is the TE2+ still the correct option? It's probably the best all around stick out there, but if you only need a PC stick, you don't necessarily need to spend the money for a PS4 stick. (I.e., you could look for a last-gen stick instead and potentially save some money.)
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Apr 13, 2016 18:45
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Wait, so, I don't know who is playable in the current build but Setsuki, Jaina, and Valerie should be loosely modeled after Ibuki, Sagat, and Fei Long. Ibuki having low health makes sense, but the other two is kinda strange. Not sure, actually--I might be remembering it wrong. Maybe I can take a look at my bud's copy of the game and I'll report back.
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Apr 13, 2016 19:16
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punk rebel ecks posted:I don't buy the argument that balance = non-diverse characters. Some of the most balanced games of this modern era have more diverse characters than the unbalanced ones. Guilty Gear is reasonably balanced and has a diverse set of characters. Skullgirls is reasonably balanced and has an extremely diverse roster as well. Developers can do both. its not like a rule, its just something that tends to be true. i know next to nothing about skullgirls and even if assume that its one of the games that does this it gives us a grand total of two games out of many from this era that manage to have a diverse cast that is balanced. im sure in a theoretical sense it is possible to do both but the overwhelming majority of devs either can't or just don't. asymmetry is what makes fgs fun in the first place, and asymmetry pushed far enough creates bad matchups. bad matchups aren't bad for games, they just come with the territory. if I wanted to play a game with all even matches i'd play a game with just one character (or not fighting games)
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Apr 13, 2016 19:53
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Brosnan posted:It's probably the best all around stick out there, but if you only need a PC stick, you don't necessarily need to spend the money for a PS4 stick. (I.e., you could look for a last-gen stick instead and potentially save some money.) Thanks, that's what I was thinking but wasn't sure if there was some hidden shelf life for fight sticks.
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Apr 13, 2016 19:55
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Serenade posted:Thanks, that's what I was thinking but wasn't sure if there was some hidden shelf life for fight sticks. They should last a private user a long time - the parts are designed to be used in an arcade environment and are rated for millions of presses. Unless the previous owner was a serious player that used it for hours every day or abused the everloving poo poo out of it, the buttons/stick shouldn't be anywhere close to being worn out on used sticks. Even if they are worn out, replacing the buttons/stick in a modern stick is easy and when shopping used you mainly want to ensure the case and its internals (PCB, Wiring) are in good condition since those aren't as easy to replace.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:16
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Zand posted:its not like a rule, its just something that tends to be true. i know next to nothing about skullgirls and even if assume that its one of the games that does this it gives us a grand total of two games out of many from this era that manage to have a diverse cast that is balanced. im sure in a theoretical sense it is possible to do both but the overwhelming majority of devs either can't or just don't. In terms of balanced fighting games from this era you have: Skullgirls, Guilty Gear, and Killer Instinct. Marvel 3, Smash, TvC aren't balanced and I don't know much about the Street Fighters. What games exactly have suffered from this fighting game era due to being too balanced focused?
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Apr 13, 2016 20:21
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On a similar note..now I'm sure this is a dumbass question..Is anything happening, I suppose wear and tear wise, in my stick if I leave it plugged in to my PC that sometimes runs 24/7? The light's on so the stick is "on". Electricity is passing through stuff so technically wearing it down, but I'm guessing it's the kinda thing like giving those parts a 1,000 year lifespan instead of 1,100? Is everything but the light and however often it chats with Windows passive until you start hitting buttons? Ain't worried about it but curious.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:22
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Probably big IMO but I felt that CSExtend sucked out too much of the imba stuff from Blazblue
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Apr 13, 2016 20:24
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game doesn't have to end up balanced for it to get ruined by the attempt at balancepunk rebel ecks posted:In terms of balanced fighting games from this era you have: Skullgirls, Guilty Gear, and Killer Instinct. Marvel 3, Smash, TvC aren't balanced and I don't know much about the Street Fighters. What games exactly have suffered from this fighting game era due to being too balanced focused? smash 4 Zand fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 20:34
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Zand posted:game doesn't have to end up balanced for it to get ruined by the attempt at balance Zand posted:smash 4 While I'll accept Smash 4 as an answer it doesn't seem to give much fuel to your theory. It's a game that isn't even connected to the main FGC and is very unbalanced to begin with. Did that game even try to be balanced? The head developer constantly talks about how he wants to make the game fun more so than competitive. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 20:39
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punk rebel ecks posted:In terms of balanced fighting games from this era you have: Skullgirls, Guilty Gear, and Killer Instinct. Marvel 3, Smash, TvC aren't balanced and I don't know much about the Street Fighters. What games exactly have suffered from this fighting game era due to being too balanced focused? KI is not an example of a game with wildly varying character styles that end up being well-balanced. The actual neutral of that game is to be in a combo, which is literally a weighted rock-paper-scissors formula that's more or less the same for the whole cast. As someone already said earlier, mostly the only way to make a game that's well balanced without being boring is for the universal system mechanics to be very powerful. Then you can give characters some unique gimmicks without the concern about them being too weak or too strong being as much of an issue, because everyone has the same baseline answers to those situations. This is what Guilty Gear does; Street Fighter 4 doesn't, and is pretty well-balanced but also really loving homogeneous and boring. Players who suck at fighting games commonly look to balance/lack thereof as a good patsy for why they're losing, and they assume that a fighting game is better the more balanced it is. Meanwhile, the best fighting games that have existed are generally not balanced games.
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Apr 13, 2016 20:55
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punk rebel ecks posted:In terms of balanced fighting games from this era you have: Skullgirls, Guilty Gear, and Killer Instinct. Marvel 3, Smash, TvC aren't balanced and I don't know much about the Street Fighters. What games exactly have suffered from this fighting game era due to being too balanced focused? Let me know when you've finished making your tier-list of games by balance and I'll send it over to the event hubs guys. They'll love it!
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Apr 13, 2016 21:09
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Brosnan posted:KI is not an example of a game with wildly varying character styles that end up being well-balanced. The actual neutral of that game is to be in a combo, which is literally a weighted rock-paper-scissors formula that's more or less the same for the whole cast. Disagree on some parts, but still see your point. Booyah- posted:Let me know when you've finished making your tier-list of games by balance and I'll send it over to the event hubs guys. They'll love it! God Tier: Killer Instinct Skullgirls Guilty Gear Xrd Super Turbo High Tier: Street Fighter IV King of Fighters XIII Super Smash Bros. Melee King of Fighters ''98 Breakers Revenge Mid Tier: Samurai Shodown VI Marvel vs Capcom 1 Power Instinct Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike Low Tier: Marvel vs Capcom 3 Tatsunoko vs Capcom Capcom vs SNK 2 King of Fighters 2002 Garbage Tier: Super Smash Bros. Brawl Marvel vs Capcom 2
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Apr 13, 2016 21:18
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if you need any proof of the balance not being equal to fun thing/a good game thing you need only compare mvc2 and mvc3
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Apr 13, 2016 21:20
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NecroMonster posted:if you need any proof of the balance not being equal to fun thing/a good game thing you need only compare mvc2 and mvc3 I'm not saying balance trumps all, just that it is a good trait to have. Or at the very least not a bad one.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:21
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no loving way st is balanced
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Apr 13, 2016 21:24
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also, melee isn't a well balanced game at all
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Apr 13, 2016 21:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:Disagree on some parts, but still see your point. Super turbos balance is awful lmao
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Apr 13, 2016 21:24
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punk rebel ecks posted:This doesn't change my initial question. What games have suffered from being too balanced focused? the core draw of asymmetrical versus games like fighters is the diverse cast capable of doing a variety of things. the more homogenized they become to cater to cries of balance the less asymmetrical they tend to be. the modern era of games, especially with fighters and with a focus on online play, has put a huge focus on balance in games. online play has made bad players able to experience fighting tough human competition at rates never before seen in the genre. in previous eras you had to go out of your way to find tough opponents: driving hours to tournaments, find a living arcade with a scene, meeting up with people from shoryuken, etc. peoples complaints about balance and cheap poo poo back then were wildly different. people thought iceman was top tier in marvel 2, for example. this increased access to competition has led developers to basically nerf everything in advance and try to prevent emergent gameplay or stop it before it gets "out of hand." while not an fg, starcraft 2 is a good example of a game that was made simpler at the expense of high-level gameplay. execution heavy strategies from starcraft 1 do not exist in the same way in starcraft 2 and the game is weaker competitively as a result. blizzard had to literally stop starcraft 1 tournaments from being main-stage events because it was simply more exciting and better/cooler/whatever than Starcraft 2 and their live announcement was met with boos. street fighter 5 is a good example of a fighting game that is recent and was made with balance in mind. if capcom didn't think of it first, it will most likely be removed from the game if its mechanically possible for them to do so. so far, at least two things (rashid/mika poo poo) have had to be removed from the game after being shown off in tournaments. they exercise very tight control of the competitive landscape in order to preserve the sense of balance they have created because they want to make sure people don't have a bad time. in previous eras, fighters were made in such a way that they tried to make sure people were able to have a good time. now with the concept of software as a service and DLC models that need playerbases to support games in the long term, developers have to genuinely worry about offending people with strong characters or bad matchups because players will quit and write angry comments on kotaku and capcom unity. fighting games already barely sell unless they have obscene amounts of sex or gore so if your game isnt going to have those you have to retain as many (lovely) players as possible. anyway, the rise of netplay and DLC models for fighters have strong correlations to this increased focus on balance. its insane how excited I was personally for good netplay in fighters. I thought, "wow when people have greater access to competition they will finally have access to the tools necessary to understand the genre and become powerful warriors" ... little did I know it would play a major role in the utter destruction of the genre.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:26
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punk rebel ecks posted:Disagree on some parts, but still see your point.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:26
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I've played very little of both but aren't both MvC 2 and 3 insanely unbalanced? I know every single MvC3 finals I've watched has included at least 1 virgil and 1 doom, and the the rest of the top tiers don't seem to be deep at all.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:37
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Super Arabian Burglary Back Breaker! *cracks spine*  'Ay
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Apr 13, 2016 21:45
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I wouldn't be surprised if the whole view on balance thing is generational.Zand posted:drat why did i even bother responding to that other post The list isn't serious.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:48
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Dracula Factory posted:I've played very little of both but aren't both MvC 2 and 3 insanely unbalanced? I know every single MvC3 finals I've watched has included at least 1 virgil and 1 doom, and the the rest of the top tiers don't seem to be deep at all. mvc3 has many many viable teams. mvc2 has as many viable teams as some games have viable characters.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:52
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SG2E is the most balanced fighter in existence, and I do not say that lightly. I have played a shitload of games extensively, and it is not an example of things done normally. It didn't reach that state of balance easily, and I'm of the belief that the game is less balanced than most people claim it to be (I think the game has 3 tiers instead of 2). The trick is that every character has the options necessary to make them function on a basic level. The problem with Xrd Pot is very much like the problem with MvC3 Thor-- he lacks basic things (like good movement) that the rest of the cast has, but the developers "make this up to him" by giving him higher stats so he can make more mistakes. I commonly use Thor vs. Phoenix as the platonic ideal of why HP-balancing characters is a fundamentally flawed concept, because Phoenix already has 1HP and no amount of additional HP would make Thor win the matchup. In Potemkin's case, it's a bit more insulting, because he had a shitload of options in AC+R that were removed because Xrd was trying to roll things back to #Reload for nostalgia reasons and also Mori hates grapplers. MvC2 is a weird case. On the surface, the game looks like it has the worst balance ever, but true MvC2 is functionally a different game with way better balance. There is no excuse for developer time wasted on characters who aren't meant to be fair, but once you cut 35 or so dudes from the cast you end up with a pretty decent game! Additionally, the game was the first Vs. game where teams had more individuality than characters, and thus team vs. team matchups mattered moreso than character vs. character matchups. ST and Xrd, games which have really poor balance objectively, make up for this by making characters interesting and fun to explore and execute. There's poo poo like unblockable loops from Elphelt and Zato, but outside of Pot each player feels rewarding and their options are a sandbox of interesting tricks instead of an uphill struggle or reflection of everybody else. The opposite of this is MK9, where it's clear that NRS doesn't know how to make characters from scratch, and everybody has the same normals and the same zoning (even Freddy loving Krueger has to wear 2 gloves instead of 1 and throws his gloves like fireballs). ST's cast is wildly varied in playstyle for the most part, and that adds to the awesome feel of Street Fighter 2 by letting players identify with characters more intimately and making each character feel like you're playing a different game. Back to Skullgirls, there's examples of both the good parts and the bad parts of what I've mentioned in it. The game has 3 tiers (Amazing, Great, and Redundant) with only a single character in the third tier and the first 2 being split rather evenly. The characters are each designed from the ground-up with the question asked, "How would this character handle this?" with the answer being anything but "They don't, but we'll adjust their stats to compensate." Cerebella scared the poo poo out of people who came from other games because she's a grappler with great options and great movement. Fortune has tradeoffs for being a puppet character that go beyond something like having reduced HP (when the puppet is out, her hitboxes and invulnerable options are less scary). Big Band is Q but with great movement, great hitboxes, Slide Head, a great reversal, and Juggernaut Head Crush. When you pick up these characters, it's like picking up a GG or ST character, and exploring what they can do is rewarding while letting players express their own creativity and individuality within the confines of the game's sandbox. The opposite of this is Filia, who often struggles with bad hitbox issues, character redundancy (her strength is iad mixups and half the cast has those), and purposely designed bad neutral, which makes her players spend more time compensating for her flaws than pioneering cool things for her to do. Are these the results of layers of overlapping universal systems like those in AC+R? No, but it is possible (and Third Strike demonstrates) that you can use universal systems to ensure that each character in the cast is technically viable. It's not perfect, but the same type of mindset that allows everybody to be good from universal stuff is generally the same type of developer mindset that's willing to give more characters options to handle troublesome matchups.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:03
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Broken Loose posted:In Potemkin's case, it's a bit more insulting, because he had a shitload of options in AC+R that were removed because Xrd was trying to roll things back to #Reload for nostalgia reasons and also Mori hates grapplers. Uh...
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Apr 13, 2016 22:11
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Let's just say Pachi hates grapplers too
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Apr 13, 2016 22:12
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everyone hates grapplerelrelrlelrelrers
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Apr 13, 2016 22:15
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Brain fart. Was thinking about BB. The following applies: AnonSpore posted:Let's just say Pachi hates grapplers too
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Apr 13, 2016 22:15
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Broken Loose posted:SG2E is the most balanced fighter in existence, and I do not say that lightly. I have played a shitload of games extensively, and it is not an example of things done normally. It didn't reach that state of balance easily, and I'm of the belief that the game is less balanced than most people claim it to be (I think the game has 3 tiers instead of 2). Great write up. To be fair though, could the fact that Skullgirls received PC style patches play a part of its sound balance?
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Apr 13, 2016 22:23
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Cat Machine posted:Fighting games should always have a few bad characters because good players clowning on other players while using bad characters is always going to be hype That's always cool, but you also get poo poo like at recent CPEX thing where a Terumi made it to top 8(?) and people were actively rooting for him to lose and saying that the whole thing sucked because he got that far. I mean, you can't please everyone but you definitely have folks who swing the other way on it. I dunno, personally, I've been burned a ton of times playing characters I thought were really fun but blew chunks in the game as a whole, so I can't speak impartially on it, but I don't disagree with zand either.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:35
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I remember a time when Melee, a game where a third of the game's 26 playable characters are considered viable at all, was considered a "balanced game"
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Apr 13, 2016 22:43
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This is a very good post I appreciate having a more detailed look at balance than a sliding scale of varied but unbalanced vs uniform but balanced.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:46
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punk rebel ecks posted:Great write up. To be fair though, could the fact that Skullgirls received PC style patches play a part of its sound balance? No. It was because the lead dev plays the game heavily, participated in the beta periods, listened to good player feedback, allowed players to keep doing cool things instead of removing them (Daisuke does this in GG, where the future versions of characters refine what players used to abuse), and set limitations for himself in advance (things like "all characters must have the same HP," "no unblockables," and the average player's Millia Blocker reaction time). I disagree with Mike Z on a lot of things but his development process is very sound. Patches in SG/SGE/SG2E are actually blown out of proportion. During the beta period, we experienced constant changes, but that's because the beta was for testing changes. There were only major patches when characters were added to the game, so like twice a year. Way less than MK or even SF5.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:46
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Broken Loose posted:No. It was because the lead dev plays the game heavily, participated in the beta periods, listened to good player feedback, allowed players to keep doing cool things instead of removing them (Daisuke does this in GG, where the future versions of characters refine what players used to abuse), and set limitations for himself in advance (things like "all characters must have the same HP," "no unblockables," and the average player's Millia Blocker reaction time). I disagree with Mike Z on a lot of things but his development process is very sound. Eh, I kinda remember a LOT of catellites circa early SG...
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Apr 13, 2016 22:48
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punk rebel ecks posted:Great write up. To be fair though, could the fact that Skullgirls received PC style patches play a part of its sound balance?
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Apr 13, 2016 22:56
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Dias posted:Eh, I kinda remember a LOT of catellites circa early SG... That's what I mean about it not reaching that state easily. More Different Edition (Squigly patch) fixed catheads, but the reason catheads were good in SDE even after the disaster that was launch catheads was because Mike was like "Catheads are fun and good so let's not nerf them into oblivion." SG had a shitload of problems until undizzy was added to the game (which was when the beta period started), both on a universal and on a character level. If we were to go back with the players at the level they are now, there'd be so much more than just catheads wrong. Peacock with 3 bombs, Dynamo's old hitbox, pretty much everything about launch Fortune, etc. Not to mention that even throughout the patch process there was one group of character mains (Painwheel) who consistently went out of their way to troll Mike for buffs without actually playing the game (see: Unfly patch). The game does not resemble what it used to be, and that's a very, very good thing. It's very good now, and I feel like if the game launched in this state then it'd have a gigantic following instead of being Biggest Side Game contender.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:59
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Broken Loose posted:The game does not resemble what it used to be, and that's a very, very good thing. It's very good now, and I feel like if the game launched in this state then it'd have a gigantic following instead of being Biggest Side Game contender. To be fair it is still growing. Combobreaker seems to be another record turnout for it this year as it's the fourth biggest game.
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Apr 13, 2016 23:12
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punk rebel ecks hasnt even played half of the games on his list even if he has, not to the level where he would even be able to make a comment on their balance
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Apr 13, 2016 23:19
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