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The theory isn't that Pas is Typhon; Scylla comes right out and says this in Lake of the Long Sun, so that's fact. There's a theory on the Internet that Silk is a clone or offspring of Typhon; as near as I can tell it's based on three pieces of evidence that are pretty circumstantial when added together, but it's very hard to tell with Wolfe. A) Silk and Typhon are both blond, though this is incredibly well-hidden. Typhon's hair color only becomes apparent if you notice that the head on the left is described as blond in Sword of the Lictor, which is the head that speaks in Urth. B) The bit with Kypris showing Silk a vision of Pas, wherein "one of the heads was Silk's." This is pretty ambiguous--theory proponents insist that this is a vision of what Pas actually looked like, but it's just as easy to read it as Kypris showing him a vision of what could be, i.e. his own personality being joined to Pas. Considering that he receives this vision after Kypris tells him to imagine what it would like to be Pas, I favor that reading. C) Typhon insists that his face be transferred with his consciousness into new bodies--that's why he had his head grafted onto Piaton rather than just replacing Piaton's brain with his own. He insisted that his subjects would only submit to his continued rule from body to body if they could continuously recognize him. Since Typhon planned to somehow leave the Whorl to rule the colonies as himself, and since the "gods" of the Whorl are able to transfer their consciousness into living creatures, it's not a stretch to imagine that he would store some of his own genetic material to be revived at the time of their landfall in order that he might transfer into it. As far as I know those are the only bits of evidence. In The Book of the Short Sun it's confirmed that Silk did in fact consent to upload his mind into Pas, thus becoming the central consciousness of the Whorl. Personally the Silk is Typhon's clone theory seems incredibly circumstantial to me and I'm not sure what the point would be if it were the case, but then Wolfe himself has said that Blood's father was Patera Pike, and the evidence pointing that way is all incredibly obscure, so who knows.
PateraOctopus fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Aug 22, 2012 |
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Jun 8, 2012 09:29
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I can't stress strongly enough how much people should stay the gently caress away from Lexicon Urthus, Solar Labyrinth and any other books written about the New/Long/Short Sun series. For every bit of insight you get into the work itself you'll get ten outlandish theories insisting on intricately crafted networks of hidden subplots that, if extant, would add approximately jack poo poo to the text. Wolfe's both a writer and a reader, and he wrote these books to be read, not to be unlocked by an elite cadre of true believers. Enjoy the books, think about them, form your own opinions, and keep Borski and Andre-Druissi as far from your house as you can. And only visit the Urth.net mailing list if you've ingested a poison whose antidote is pure unrefined batshit.
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Jun 9, 2012 11:27
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Juaguocio posted:Thread back! Good thread! He is definitely aware of the fact that he's in Silk's body--he essentially comes right out and says it in In Green's Jungles--but up until Remora reads him that passage, he's under the impression that that's all it is: he's Horn transferred into Silk. With that passage he realizes that he has (somewhat willfully) misinterpreted everything that's come before, and that he's been Silk the whole time. Horn has been dead since before page one--he died on Green, and the Neighbor he encountered essentially pulled a fast one on him in order to grant his dying wish of finding Silk and bringing him back to Blue. As I understand it, what actually happened was that the Neighbor essentially uploaded Horn's memories into Silk so that the latter, while remaining himself, would believe himself to be Horn for a while and essentially be tricked into following his own trail back to Blue. The Neighbor's "I will transfer your soul into a dying man" line was basically there so that Silk would subsequently have that memory and assume he was now Horn in Silk's body. Couple that with the heavy implications that towards the end Silk essentially loathed and considered himself a failure--he was very likely attempting to slit his wrists when he got Horn's memories--and we can see why he would leap at the chance to be someone else for a while. There's a passage in the final book where either Hoof or Hide describe Silk as viewing everybody else as rough and dirty like Oreb but loving them anyway--the chance to "be" Horn gives Silk the much-needed opportunity to allow himself to be just a rough and dirty human, rather than the holy messenger he's striven his whole life to be. drkhrs2020 posted:Yeah, Severian was/is a piece of poo poo to the women in his life and gets karmic retribution when tracking down Dorcas. Yeah, he's a straight-up rapist. It's clear on the first read that Severian is intentionally white-washing his life in an effort to create a "historical record" from his position of power, but on subsequent ones it becomes brutally obvious that the guy is actually a legitimate monster. BigSkillet posted:Is it possible to read and enjoy Short Sun without having read Long Sun beforehand? No, it is definitely not. Short Sun is close to labyrinthine even when you have read Long Sun; I can't imagine what it'd be like without it. PateraOctopus fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 02:29
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Beyond sane knolls posted:I was referring to a bit on the second to last page of Lake of the Long Sun: "Yet Pas's seal had been disturbed many times; [Silk] himself had scraped up the remains of one such seal. Embryos, mere flecks of rotten flesh, had lain among the remains of another. Was Pas's seal to be valued more than the things it had been intended to protect?" Am I misinterpreting this? Yeah, I think you're misinterpreting it a bit. This isn't a pro-life statement, it's a statement against empty ritual. The fact that the objects in question here are embryos isn't a huge part of this passage's importance--it's mainly Silk realizing that the Vironese faith put more emphasis on the literal doctrine of leaving the Seals undisturbed than they did on thinking about why the Seals shouldn't be disturbed, and rejecting that doctrine. Embryos in the Whorl were incredibly valuable because they ensured that the breeding population would never fall below replacement levels--no matter what cataclysms occurred on the interstellar journey, Pas gave them all a backup so that they could still have a sustainable population base when they reached the Blue/Green system. However, the letter of the doctrine became more revered than the logic that led to the doctrine being in place--"Don't disturb my seal, because you might gently caress up the embryos that are your backup in case you near extinction levels" became "Don't disturb my seal." More emphasis is here being placed on respecting the symbolism of the seal than on the rationale for that symbolism's existence in the first place, and as Silk observes the major error in this scriptural logic--if you disturb both the Seal and its contents, you're only going to be chastised for the part with no practical application--he distances himself further from the Faith he was raised in. He doesn't yet know what the deal with the embryos is, but he's realizing that no sanely-ordered universe would place more emphasis on a lock than on the thing behind the door. I don't know if Wolfe is personally pro-life or not--he's vocally Catholic, but he's also incredibly non-dogmatic--but if this was (and I really don't believe it is) intended as a pro-life statement, that sentiment doesn't crop up elsewhere in the series.
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Oct 25, 2012 04:25
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Neurosis posted:Wolfe has made one unambiguously pro-life statement, which was in An Evil Guest. He alludes to post-natal abortions being legalised in the US. Still haven't read that one. Bought it when it came out, still on my shelf. I understand it's tied up with Memorare somehow--is the connection terribly explicit?
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Oct 25, 2012 07:56
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Klyith posted:Wolfe is a author-missionary, but he doesn't want to forcefully convert you. He wants you to convert yourself. It's like he's trying to encapsulate the religious experience itself and preach it, rather than specific theology or Catholic doctrine. This sometimes goes to weird places for a Christian writer; like Latro in the Mist portraying the greek gods and Wolfe saying that he believes that those gods were, at the time, real entities. One of my favorite bits of the Long Sun books--and one of the parts that sometimes makes me place them above the New Sun--is the completely unexpected treatment of Kypris's divinity. Kypris was Typhon's concubine in life, and he had her uploaded into the Whorl presumably for selfish reasons, giving her the role of the Aphrodite-role of goddess of love and desire in his pantheon. And yet Wolfe portrays her as taking this job seriously, believing wholeheartedly in her "responsibilities" and honestly paying attention to the prayers directed her way. And because she represents love in all its forms--her possessing Maytera Mint is likely responsible for the latter's transformation from timid nun to outspoken defender--she is on her way to "becoming" the Outsider, or an aspect/avatar thereof. It's not presented in a similar way to CS Lewis's "When you were worshiping Tash you were really worshiping Aslan" thing, because Kypris's divinity isn't portrayed as based on a misunderstanding--she's autonomous and separate from the Outsider but no less legitimately divine because of it. Unexpected to read things like that from an unabashedly Catholic writer.
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Oct 25, 2012 10:53
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Neurosis posted:I haven't read Memorare, so I couldn't tell you. An Evil Guest is not Wolfe's best work. It borrows more from early 20th century pulp than it does from Lovecraft, although the Lovecraftian connections become more evident as the novel goes on. Not recommended unless you are a Wolfe completionist. That seems to be its reputation. I already own it, so I'm committed at this point, but I'm in no hurry. quote:Speaking of which, I still have a few stand alone Wolfe novels I have yet to read. These are: Operation Ares is nearly impossible to find, and it was heavily edited down from what Wolfe wanted it to be, besides which he himself looks on it largely as a learning experience and nothing else as you said, so you can probably put that on the bottom of the list. I'm pretty close to a Wolfe completionist (dig the username), but I have no interest in that one. Pirate Freedom is entertaining and as close to "edutainment" as Wolfe is ever likely to get--it's largely just a travelogue of a 21st-century kid living in the golden age of piracy, so if you're interested in that time period it's a pretty good resource, but not much of it stuck with me after I finished it except the twist at the end. I really enjoyed The Devil in a Forest, though it's not what you'd call a "rewarding" read--you'll leave with a lot of questions that might not have answers. Still, it's well-written and a nice look at medieval peasant life. Free Live Free, Castleview and Pandora by Holly Hollander I haven't read--I'm most interested in the latter, because to my knowledge it's the only instance where Wolfe wrote first-person from a woman's perspective, at least in novel form. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it for sale in any stores, and when I got it from the library the backpack it was in was stolen before I could read it.
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Oct 27, 2012 06:12
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xiw posted:I think I recall someone speculating that the 'marrying their animals' thing is just Severian hearing about 'animal husbandry' and getting it Completely Wrong. Holy poo poo.
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Nov 2, 2012 08:05
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Levitate posted:I just started reading Book of the Long Sun again and realized (this probably isn't anything amazing) but basically everything Silk does is probably influenced by him being enlightened at the very beginning. He gets a glimpse of everything and then from that point on his decisions are probably influenced by that...what to do, etc. Kind of a play on fate and controlling your destiny, perhaps It's certainly got an influence on him, but he's very frequently surprised--he states multiple times that he immediately forgot most of what he saw because it wasn't like normal "seeing," so he tends to only remember bits when something reminds him of it. He also didn't get that "save the manteion" meant "save the people who make up your congregation" rather than "save the building," so the enlightenment really only presented him with raw data without giving him an idea of what to do with it. He didn't know he was going to get shot, for instance, and the Outsider deliberately misled him with the "expect no help" bit. The enlightenment was less the Outsider showing him what was going to happen and more the Outsider revealing to him the nature of the universe and his own whorl, but in such a way that he wasn't able to comprehend most of it for more than a moment. The majority of what he saw was less immediately important to his mission than the fact that he saw it.
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Nov 12, 2012 03:04
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Neurosis posted:The ship. Yeah. No doubt.
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Dec 5, 2012 10:23
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Beyond sane knolls posted:Weird how a guy with perfect memory would forget what he previously wrote. Or is that totally the point? Are his obvious inconsistencies there just to prove his memory is in fact poo poo? Or is Severian recalling the perceptions of several Severians, whose realities differ from one another's? Severian often mentions not being able to remember something small, or a memory being hazy, but he quickly rationalizes it away--things were so intense that he wasn't concentrating, or he was concentrating so intently on one thing that he didn't pay attention to others, etc. But he does it enough that you eventually realize that his memory's definitely not as good as he thinks it is--he's so wedded to the idea that it's perfect that he ignores all evidence to the contrary even when he's aware of it. Off the top of my head I remember him forgetting what meal he brought Thecla during a given encounter and being unable to recall a lot of details about the boat battle in volume 4, but there are a bunch of others, as well. Thing is, he mentions these things so offhandedly that I personally didn't even notice them on the first read-through--we're used to narrators saying "I kind of forget this little detail" because hey, that's what people do, so our brain doesn't make a special note of it when it pops up. Once you're familiar with Severian's character and how much he defines himself by his memory, though, the little inconsistencies pop out at you and make you question Severian's version of things.
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Mar 4, 2013 22:04
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DONT CARE BUTTON posted:Also, did you read Urth? It's a lot more straightforward as a narrative Uhhhh...really? If someone found the first four books dense I'd guess they're liable to think Urth is nigh-on goddamn impenetrable. sebmojo posted:I read about half of the Long Sun and it felt like the characters spent the whole time explaining the plot to each other. Does anyone else feel this way? Part of this is, I think, because part of Silk's character is that he's didactic to a fault--he never stops being a teacher and preacher--, but also because in large part the Long Sun books take a lot of their cues from detective novels. Silk has any number of moments where he says something to himself and you scan the preceding paragraphs for what the hell he's talking about, and then pages later he gets his "parlor scene" where he recaps the clues he spent the last twenty pages quietly piecing together (without alerting the reader to the fact that there was even a mystery). The most memorable for me is in Nightside when he remarks, "Only she didn't, did she?" to no one in particular upon discovering a corpse, and no elaboration is provided for it. A few chapters later he explains that she was named after a type of flower that's also known as "Live-Forevers," and he was remarking upon this to himself at the time. I spent at least five minutes scanning the preceding scene trying to figure out who in God's name he was responding to and what that line meant before deciding to just keep reading...and this was on my second read-through. But you're not alone in noticing the tendency toward explanatory conversations--if there's one part of the Long Sun books that sort of sets them back for me, it's how prone the characters (but Silk especially) are to imparting very verbose lessons to one another. PateraOctopus fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Mar 12, 2013 |
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Mar 12, 2013 07:47
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freebooter posted:Has anybody read Solar Labyrinth by Robert Borski? Is it worth reading for someone like me who found BOTNS puzzling and fascinating, yet hard going, and wouldn't mind reading some explanations of what's going on in it? No. The Gene Wolfe "fan community" is one of the most loving batshit circle-jerks you're liable to encounter on the internet and Borski is one of its most prolific crazies. You won't get anything approaching an open, adult conversation about a work of literature; discussions alternate between fetishization, one-upsmanship and treatment of obscure, nearly-groundless theories as fact. Gene Wolfe is one of my favorite authors--dig the username--but I wouldn't go near the fan community for more than release date info if you paid me. This thread is as much Wolfe discussion as I like to get into on the Internet because it's adult human beings talking about books that they read and on which they have opinions; it's not some weird mystical order engaging in a set of approved rituals over their icons.
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Mar 16, 2013 03:21
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sebmojo posted:Borski crapping himself Hahaha, holy poo poo. Hardcore Wolfe fandom ("Lupines," as they unironically honest-to-Christ call themselves) reminds me of that bit from one of the Tarzan books where there's a whole city of gorillas who thought they were English historical figures and that their jungle city was London, but since they had no actual basis of comparison the whole thing was basically a ridiculous caricature of what they assumed London would be like, with anachronisms all bumping into each other. They're aware that they're reading books worthy of deeper thought and analysis, but their only experience of engaging with a work of literature comes from sf/fantasy fandom with its emphasis on discussing plot, world-building and concrete detail, so they create this weird bastardization of that and what they assume people sound like when they talk about Ulysses. Instead of "What does this mean?" or "What can we take from this?" it's all "What do you figure the secret identity of the thing in the jar is?" and "Since Typhon is named after a monster, does that mean he's an alien?" And then you read their discussions of the Short Sun books and I swear to God it's like taking a wrong turn in a mall you've never been to and opening a service door that leads into a room full of strange doughy creatures with no eyes sitting in padded chairs hooked up to IVs and covered in their own poop, periodically opening their too-wide mouths to issue an incoherent moan like something between a death-rattle and a challenge. Personally I try to stay away from any and all "fan communities," but this one's pretension that they're something different and better than that makes them among the worst.
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Mar 18, 2013 02:44
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Fenrra posted:At least that is better then Oh my sweet Christ.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:07
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Neurosis posted:postpartum abortions. Most books I've read come out pretty strongly against this.
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Nov 9, 2013 19:12
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