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Hels posted:I'm near the end of Botns. At first I couldn't quit understand all of the hubbub, but he more I read the more I was sucked in. However, I'm still at a loss toward perceiving much of the depth and cleverness which people so often attribute the work. I'm hoping some of you all can elaborate on some "holy poo poo" moments you had while reading. I'm finishing up a re-read of BotNS right now, and many of the Holy poo poo moments were, in hindsight, very subtle and I generally missed during my first read. Off the top of my head: The legend of St. Catherine, the patron of Severian's order, is the St. Catherine of the early Catholic church, who was murdered in exactly the way described. Implying the order of the Torturers began with her death. The painting Severian finds the curator restoring, described as a man looking through a bronze glass at a desolate wasteland. It's the moon, described in Severian's age as green. Jonas' true age.He mentions more or less modern sounding Korean names being common in his day, and is also familiar with the true story of the Minotaur, which has become corrupted in Severian's age. The story of Frog. It's an amalgamation of the founding of Rome and Richard Kipling's The Jungle Book. There are also a few holy poo poo the world is loving old moments: Several times Severian mentions some interesting qualities about the Sun of Urth:namely, that it's red, and that even at noon other stars are plainly visible. Which leads to an interesting thought (for me, anyway): How loving cold is Urth even during the warmest Summer days? At one point, after escaping Thrax, and just before meeting the Alzabo, Severian descends a large cliff face. When he looks back he sees a whole city buried under the cliff. He sees the faces of buildings, some ripped right through the middle, going up hundreds of feet up the side of the cliff. How many eons of civilizations is he viewing? Also, what caused the cliff to shear down the middle like that? Also, the mountains I missed entirely the first time reading. Every mountain of Urth is carved similarly to Mt. Rushmore today. Of all these the mountain of Typhon is greatest. Some little lies that Severian leaves out: On Thecla: they were lovers. He never says they weren't, but chooses to frame the relationship in such a way to suggest they weren't On Dorcas: she and Jolenta were lovers. Again, he never explicitly lies about this, but omits (deliberately!) many of the details of their relationship. Also(End of book 4 spoilers): she's his grandmother Anyway, I find myself discovering things such as this on each reread. The depth, the stories within stories, are what really make the HOLY poo poo moments for me.
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Mar 12, 2012 00:50
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Neurosis posted:Palaemon. Isn't Malrubius a Roman name too?
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Mar 13, 2012 21:23
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Yeah that's what I got too. It just sounds Roman. (Silly reasoning I know)
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Mar 13, 2012 22:14
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Neurosis posted:Yeah, you're right about the name in that post. I suppose what leads people to theories like the one I posted above was that the name is both that of a god and a saint. It's been so long since I read the discussion of that name that I can't remember how it properly ran. That's an interesting take. I'm sure it's not an accident that the spoilered name was both a real person and a figure from Roman mythology. Might then that person (in the BoTNS) been both? Perhaps at one time a human, and later something else? edit: realized said character wasn't a god in the pantheon, changed post accordingly DickParasite fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Mar 14, 2012 |
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Mar 14, 2012 03:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's possible, even likely that he's lying about how much sex he's had. Keep in mind that in the one case where he almost certainly did, and where he was definitely in love with the woman in question (Thecla) he goes out of the way to gloss over or omit mentioning it until the Thecla-personality part of him confirms it. Why do you think he's lying about the amount of times he's had sex? Can anyone cite more specific examples of Severian's lies? Other than the omission that he was sleeping with Thecla I mean.
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May 5, 2012 05:56
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Neurosis posted:Palaemon. Just wanted to add on a reread I realized there's another character mentioned with a name that is both historical and in the Greek Pantheon. Paeon the "honey-steward" of the old autarch. He also, apparently, told the old Autarch of Severian's coming.
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Jun 5, 2012 03:29
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Xenix posted:After this, Dorcas and Jolenta have a physical altercation. Am I misremembering this? I won't argue one way or the other about his encounter with Jolenta but it's after this incident that Severian becomes separated from the group . Some time after that Dorcas and Jolenta become lovers . Though you don't actually find that out, as far as I know, until Book 3, after Severian meets little Severian but before he encounters Typhon .
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Oct 26, 2012 03:22
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In Urth of The New Sun The Hierodules mention putting him back together multiple times after dying. Specifically: falling to his death on Tzadkiel's ship and being killed by the villagers as Apu-Punchau.
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Nov 29, 2012 14:19
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my dad posted:Personally, half the fun of the books is figuring out when Severian is outright lying. If you read carefully, you can find several contradictions that aren't a plot-hole, but a clue. Example?
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Mar 3, 2013 14:35
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:He insists that he's not sleeping with Thecla through the first book, then later on he fondly looks back at all the sex he had with Thecla. I could be misremembering, but I don't think he ever outright claims to not sleep with Thecla. I think he just omits it.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:24
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freebooter posted:There's a lot of deus ex machina and philiosphical metaphors and I never really shook the notion that Severian was a puppet being jerked about on a string. He is being manipulated. He knows this at the time of writing but not at the time of the events described. The hierodules travel backwards in time and change things whenever they require up to and including reviving Severian when he dies, which happens more than once. Palaemon isn't who he says he is and most likely manipulates Severian into falling in love with Thecla. I can't think of anything else right now but those are two of the biggest.
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Mar 12, 2013 18:36
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Levitate posted:That's actually what I don't really remember, is he reviving himself or are the hierodules reviving him every time he dies? He is not, they are.
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Mar 12, 2013 20:10
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Urth will clear up some of those. However there is a more or less explicit answer with regards to your last question about the Hierodules: When Severian meets them in Baldander's castle at the end of the Lictor, Famulimus removes her second mask. He describes her as having a face very similar to the stone creatures he saw at the House Absolute. Midway through Citadel Severian meets the Anchorite at the last house. He claims to be a human from the very far (bad) future of Urth. He has a similar face. Also as near as I can tell "cacogen" refers to a creature not of Urth. Thus the Hierodules are cacogens, but not all cacogens are Hierodules. What really sets them apart is that the Hierodules travel backwards in time. It would seem Father Inire does not.
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Apr 30, 2013 12:57
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Popular Human posted:So Lightspeed has a reprinting of "Suzanne Delage" as its lead fantasy story this month: http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/suzanne-delage/ This seems even more opaque than most of GW's work. I read it twice and I can't even figure out what was so outrageous that the protagonist simply forgot it. It can't be Suzanne, since he clearly remembers her. Is it whatever caused the photo to be cut out of the sophomore year yearbook?
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Sep 6, 2013 18:27
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House Louse posted:Not quite! You forgot Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. And didn't Baldanders begin as a human? Also (UotNS, I think) all the robots are called "Steel" or "Iron" in different languages. He was a preacher in Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severian_of_Gabala
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Jun 8, 2015 18:30
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Wasn't Severian also wounded in the thigh/leg in in Citadel of the Autarch?
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Dec 19, 2016 10:47
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Can someone remind me what word Wolfe uses to describe a priest who reads prophecy in lighting?
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Aug 2, 2020 05:22
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Action Jacktion posted:Fulgurator. It’s a real word going back to Roman times. I knew it was a real word I just couldn't remember it for the life of me. Thanks!
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Aug 2, 2020 11:28
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