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idiotsavant posted:I mean, pumping over is pretty drat benign on the order of things - you have to wet down the cap somehow. That's exactly my point - even "benign" interventions often seem unnecessary or unnatural to wine consumers. Not that this is a reason to drink or make natural wine, but it's obvious to me how the natural wine movement is commercially threatening to industrial growers despite being a small slice of the market.
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Nov 22, 2016 02:43
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 01:26 |
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Just call it a natural fermentation. Go on, you know you want to.
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Nov 22, 2016 17:17
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Perhaps you got a bad bottle. Or perhaps you don't like the style. What was it?
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Dec 4, 2016 06:11
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I love Madeira with chocolate desserts, but a large part of that is loving Madeira. It can be a somewhat challenging flavor profile to people who don't expect it. I don't want to put you off, though, loads of people love it, especially if you preface with a brief explanation.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:59
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This is what constitutes "good Twitter beef" in the wine world
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Jan 31, 2017 19:28
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I'm by no means in the industry, but certainly am evangelist for acid and find myself pouring or drinking different things to many of my peers. I find that word - acidity - puts people off in the first place, so emphasizing freshness, or making the comparison between oversweet stewed fruit vs a fresh red raspberry often work better. Talk about how mouth-watering the wine is, how it's light on its feet, elegant, a complement not a competitor to your dish.
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Apr 2, 2017 19:13
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I have no idea what that natural wine rant/parody/whatever the gently caress it is is even trying to say. Like, as a person who drinks a lot of natural wine, goes to wine bars/shops/restaurants which specialize in it, and is friends with plenty of people who prefer natural wine, I don't think I've met anyone like the putative girlfriend in the post (by the way, that bit of it struck me as repeatedly sexist). But I've met plenty of people who even hear the phrase "natural wine" and go berserk in defense of, well, industrial wine.
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Apr 4, 2017 01:52
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Acid is really in right now.
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Apr 4, 2017 07:39
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Aren't you literally describing the Parker effect which has hosed wine styling for like a generation? Christ.
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Apr 22, 2017 03:39
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A tiny bit of spritz in a fancy Foillard is expected. It's a reason that wine is recommended to decant. I'm not sure if it's secondary (I think it's likely a result of a heavy carbonic maceration which can sometimes present as spritz in my experience), and I might be a little more into the natural wine thing than Kasumeat, but with that wine I'd call a light dusting of light fizzy texture par for the course and I certainly don't think it's a negative. If you liked it after the fizz blew off, try the Cuvee Corcelette. And if you want to dive in to this sort of bojo, there's plenty of there there.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:47
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For the Cali wine guy, I'm pretty sure La Clarine Farm ship. But also look to stores that would happily ship to you. I'm pretty sure Ordinaire does, and there's always places like K&L with big selection and some good local names.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:49
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For an article that begins with "Imagine a yoghurt manufacturer decides one day that using predictable laboratory-cultured lactic bacteria to create their product compromises its integrity. They decide to market a completely “natural” yoghurt where the milk is left to ferment at will, without any additions, interventions, or preservatives." it's not as abjectly terrible as I'd expect. But it's full of scaremongering and, to me, overstates the case. I've had mousy wine, sure. It's unpleasant. But I've had far more unpleasant commercial wine (admittedly, not faulted - just insipid, and to me that's worse), and I appreciate that the radical, almost political, nature of the hardcore naturalists is exerting pressure on the whole industry. For some content, here's the last few (natty) bottles I've had.  The Trousseau was light and lovely, by Philippe Bornard. Great spice on the back. The Sans was also really good - super juicy. Marissa Ross has a good review. Clos Saron is always reliable, and the Old Man's Reserve was no disappointment. Double decanted and drunk with dinner, this was awesome, with plenty of primary fruit and plenty of secondary development at the same time. You gently caress My Wine is made of Jurançon Noir, a grape that used to be permitted in Cahors. It was lighter than I expected, juicy, spicy, and deeply food friendly. It felt very laid back, if that makes sense.
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Jun 5, 2017 23:55
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Crimson, how do you explain the prevalence of natural wines on many restaurants wine lists these days, up to and including the top tiers of fine dining? I still think all y'all industrial wine apologists are missing one of the most exciting culinary moments today.
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Jul 10, 2017 14:53
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On the one hand, y'all so easy to troll (me too). But if no sulfur is a precondition of natural wine, even Cornelissen isn't natural.
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Jul 11, 2017 03:17
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Furious Lobster posted:Recommend me a natural wine from K&L that doesn't suck under either Crimson or everyone else's interpretation of the word "natural". They usually sell La Clarine Farm. Try one of the reds (the whites are funkier, deliberately). ETA - or Catherine and Pierre Breton from Loire, or jp brun (terre dores saint amour is lovely) would both meet my definition of natural. All of these use a small amount of sulfur. And idiotsavant, that sounds like you make natural wine. And that some folks in the "scene" are idiots, which, of course. The thing that really gets my goat about this argument is that there really was a trend, a state of affairs, in the wine world where taste was homogenizing, production methods were on a consistent trajectory towards the industrial a la food or beer production on a large scale, and producers who had always been more or less natural often ended up with the choice between intervention, selling grapes cheap, ripping up traditional grapes and replanting industrial varieties, or folding. Natural wine represents a radical critique of that paradigm, of that history, a rejection of sameness and engineering in favor of freshness and vivacity. And now that the mainstream is incorporating elements of the radical critique, of course the radicals further radicalize and concomitantly the mainstream moves the goalposts. But it'd be nice if industry apologists admitted that natural wine is a spectrum, that natural products and producers have had a positive influence across the wine world - perhaps this would allow some more constructive dialogue. Benzinger wouldn't be biodynamic without some trailblazers laying the way. I see more natural producers and critics by far talking like idiotsavant about minimizing intervention but allowing a sensible amount than the people he criticizes, but perhaps I don't try to show wines at Brumaire or RAW. But if you admit the nature of this spectrum, I also don't see something wrong with carving an arbitrary piece out of it for some specific event. pork never goes bad fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 14:15
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Lioco make a great Chardonnay in California that's by no means a white burgundy ringer, but it's great wine without suffering from the flaws of overdone Cali chard from past years.
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Jul 30, 2017 22:25
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I love a kabinett with many Thai dishes, and think that it can be really great with something like pad prik khing or pad krapow. But if you're more on the sticky rice with grilled pork and nam jim jaew side of things, it gets challenging - that's so much spice, with the complex aromatics of woody herbs and the spike of lime - an awfully hard thing to pair. Sangria can be a good option, or even beer. In general I'd say stick to aromatic whites with a good acid backbone - something aromatic and low acid like much Californian viognier can be just blown out and made even more perfumey by the ample sourness in the food. Being honest, as someone who drinks wine with almost every dinner, I have lager with most South East Asian food.
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Aug 11, 2017 20:13
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So I won't claim to know the source of that note speciically. But I drink plenty of Bojo and most Cru Beaujolais that goes through carbonic doesn't have that note.
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Oct 24, 2017 08:52
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A few nights ago I had a bottle of Arnot Roberts Gamay, which I had very high hopes for. It was good, to be sure, but definitely lacked the earthy/savory/herbaceous notes that I love and look for in good Cru. But it also lacked the sort of glouglou sense I get from less "serious" bojo. It was really disappointing, and my first miss from that producer.
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Oct 24, 2017 20:03
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Chambers Street Wine is also just a delightful store to visit, with great staff who care.
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Nov 8, 2017 02:00
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I quite liked this post by Josh Haas of Tablas Creek on biodynamics - http://tablascreek.typepad.com/tablas/2017/11/our-skeptics-path-into-biodynamics.html
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Nov 8, 2017 22:42
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Wine is very political.
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Nov 10, 2017 07:08
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Possibly a can of worms question, there, emotive! Where are you located? If in the US, I'd likely suggest looking for some specific importers. Kermit Lynch tends to import more natural wines, though perhaps they're less explicitly part of the movement, but they are widely available. Jenny & Francois, FiFi's, Bliss, Louis/Dressner, Camille Riviere, Savio Soares, David Bowler, Polaner Selections, and Zev Rovine are all importers that I respect a lot. Oh, and Selection Massale, of course. If you'd like specific bottle recommendations, it'd be great to hear something about what you like as well as where you are - I'm sure there are some of us who can call a few good bottles in your market.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:12
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I like that wine a lot, especially with a light chill, in a tumbler, outside, on a warm day. I was going to ask if you like Beaujolais at all, but checked your post history and that's a yep. I don't find it typically Morgon, more like a decent nouveau. Lapierre's declared Morgon has a lot more structure/stuffing, if that makes sense. Darker toned fruit, more and tighter tannins, more body, maybe even more acid (though it drinks as if it has a little less, because there's much more there to balance).
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Nov 28, 2017 20:41
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I think I have to disagree with Kasumeat - 2014 was good plenty of places. Beaujolais, Loire (inc reds - I really love aged Cab Franc), a lot of Bordeaux, Provence, early Jura indications are positive, lots of Australia, some NZ, Sicily, Oregon all had good vintages. It's never really a vintage of the decade candidate, but all should produce plenty of good, ageable wine. If I were you, I'd especially look for some Beaujolais with serious stuffing. 2014 was rocking in Beaujolais and some of the more structured bottlings should age extremely well. http://vinous.com/articles/2014-beaujolais-another-dream-vintage-aug-2016 has some great insight. Other than that, I'll echo the Savennieres and Chablis recommendations, suggest some Saumur/Chinon Cab Franc, and maybe a Coonawarra Cav Sauv or two, and maybe some good Bordeaux. I threw some links for some of these recommendations below. K&L didn't have a lot of great options, but I barely scratched the surface at Kogod. Max, the owner, is super helpful by email, and I'm sure he'd love to help you put together a half-case of ageables. I stuck to regions I know well and have drunk older wine for my recs, so they're all French, but if I were you I'd do a little research and definitely throw a good Aussie Cab on there too. It's so delicious when it's old, really special, but I just don't know enough (about sourcing OR producers) to make really good recommendations. Some Beaujolais options: Foillard 3.14 is an insane Beaujolais that'll easily last: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-foillard-morgon-3-15 Metras Moulin a Vent Magnum: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-metras-moulin-a-vent-1-5l Lapierre Morgon Magnum: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-lapierre-morgon-1-5l Some Loire Cab Franc options: Guiberteau makes long lived wines, this is a nice bottling: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-guiberteau-saumur-rouge-les-motelles-1 The Breton's also make long lived wines, and you can try some older vintages (K&L have some, as do Kogod) if you want a sense of what you're getting into: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-breton-bourgueil-clos-senechal Clos de l'echo: http://www.klwines.com/p/i?i=1321600 Others: Ganevat Les Chalasse Marnes Bleues will live forever: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-ganevat-les-chalasses-marnes-bleues Pontet-Canet should be good for a while, would be a strong contender for me in the vintage: http://www.klwines.com/p/i?i=1322526 Joly Coulee de Serrant Savenierres will be sick in a couple decades: http://www.klwines.com/p/i?i=1283574 It was also a good vintage in Provence - Trevallon is a reliable ager: https://www.kogodwine.com/collections/wines/products/2014-trevallon-igp-rouge
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Dec 22, 2017 21:17
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I really hoped to avoid this dumb slapfight again. The three specific producers I recommended don't have reputations for faults or mousiness and do have reputations for producing great ageable wine, the three bottles I linked are all sulfured, and in all three cases I've personally drunk well aged wine from that producer and enjoyed it.
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Dec 22, 2017 21:42
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Amazing.
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Dec 22, 2017 22:43
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I've had some really delicious older Coonawarra Cab with what might be my favorite version of the eucalyptus note you can get out of cab. I work for an Australian company and one of the founders is a wine collector with some really great and really interesting older bottles. Definitely a fan, but I'm pretty unknowledgeable and I'm not sure that America is really the right place to get that stuff.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:04
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Disinterested posted:Forgive me if I missed the (probably lots of posts) but is there a consensus good place to order wine from online in the US? Furious Lobster's not wrong (though for aged wine I'm not sure blindly trusting search results and picking cheapest is the best idea!), but if you're looking for recommendations for specific stores to browse I can highly recommend K&L
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May 3, 2018 16:22
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Ah, yes, the Wisconsin Medical Journal. https://www.winemarketjournal.com/ for those who don't already know what the acronym means. It's a paid service. I like https://www.kogodwine.com/ as a store for older wines.
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May 3, 2018 17:15
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got off on a technicality posted:K&L's already been mentioned, as has Kogod, but I would also add Benchmark and Flatiron Flatiron has a great physical location in SF, too. Fun tastings. I haven't been to the original NY store.
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May 5, 2018 03:26
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While I've heard of Fundador (Spanish mass-market brandy), I hadn't heard of those bottlings. Looks like they're Philippines specific. If you're curious, I'd say to buy one to try!
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May 8, 2018 23:31
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I get the impression that the concern is cooking a decent bottle of local bubbly designed to drink in the next few years when you store it for 9 months in a hot house. The advice so far is good if you're storing wine for years (I use off-site storage in the east bay for longer term aging, and love it for what it is - I add and pick up wine about two or three times per year and otherwise buy for immediate consumption or store under a year in my closet and try to let nothing go more than two months in the July-September period). If you mostly buy wine for consumption within twelve months of purchase or in that ballpark, then I'd look at Wirecutter reviews and go with their suggestion. https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-wine-fridges/
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Jul 8, 2018 04:26
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got off on a technicality posted:I've never had trouble with bottles from the '70s and '80s with my regular ah so so I've never felt the need to buy a Durand Same. Except it's called a butler's friend!
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Aug 2, 2018 07:37
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Ola posted:Battenfeld-Spanier. I can heartily second this - really beautiful wines. Searingly, tooth-meltingly acidic, with really expressive fruit. I like the Moelsheim bottling (vineyard?) very much at a good price, and any of the GGs are a nice step up.
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Nov 23, 2018 10:48
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 01:26 |
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White pepper in Gruner is nowhere near as distinct as white pepper in Pineau D'Aunis. I feel this way about many "classic" notes - they may be distinct, and identifiable, but often only in sighted tasting, and often only because some more distinct exemplar is no longer produced in any significant manner because of the homogenization of fine wine. It's not clear to me what conclusions to draw from this, exactly, but try Poivre et Sel and tell me that white pepper came after you called the wine and I'll be flabbergasted. Minimally, the fact that classic styles often mean that not only the grape and place are the same but that the same series of productive or interventionist steps are followed suggests to me that the entire notion of classic ought to be rethought, if only because it's no longer useful for consumers and the anchor of history is only unclearly useful for producers and cataloguers today.
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Dec 9, 2018 09:56
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