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unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Hey, there's been some topics of conversation in the Tourism and Travel thread and the German language thread that are perhaps better served by a more general current events thread.

If you're visiting Germany and want some travel tips, try: Ask me about Germany.
If you are learning German and want some help, try: The German Language thread.

Germany is the world's fourth largest economy after the US, China and Japan, and the world's second largest exporter after China. It's noted for its beer, sausage and kickin' techno.

Hot topics include: Church tax, the pirate party, nuclear power, bailing out southerners and the best clubs to have sex in.

For a seemingly reasonable discussion of German politics have a read of A New Germany? by Perry Anderson (from 2009 possibly slightly out of date). I would be interested to hear other peoples take on this, if they believe it to be accurate.

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WTBCzero
Oct 20, 2008
How likely is it that Germany will keep to its plans to shut down all of its nuclear power stations? I read a analysis somewhere that this decision was made in the expectation it could be reversed later when anti-nuclear feelings had died down a bit.

Trench_Rat
Sep 19, 2006
Doing my duty for king and coutry since 86
will Germany become Russias "bitch" when the gas pipe from Vyborg is finished?

Hungry Gerbil
Jun 6, 2009

by angerbot

Trench_Rat posted:

will Germany become Russias "bitch" when the gas pipe from Vyborg is finished?

Germany is already Russias bitch. gently caress ex-chancellor Schröder.

BexGu
Jan 9, 2004

This fucking day....
unixbeard, are you German or living in Germany? Im real curious on how Germany is taking basically being the corner stone of the Euro.

DerDestroyer
Jun 27, 2006
Every time I see the news I see yet another European country coming to Germany for a welfare check and I just sigh. It's like the entire Eurozone wants to get hitched on Hartz IV.

Is there any truth to this financial bailout of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etc as being nothing more than a very indirect way of bailing out German banks who actually own the debt and would be insoluble if there were defaults?

I'll be coming to Germany on an Internship this Spring and I'm hoping to land something permanent afterwards. How likely is the entire German economy going to collapse into a clusterfuck of unemployment and austerity measures within the next 2-3 years?

Horseshoe theory
Mar 7, 2005

DerDestroyer posted:

Is there any truth to this financial bailout of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etc as being nothing more than a very indirect way of bailing out German banks who actually own the debt and would be insoluble if there were defaults?

From what I've read, the French banks are more exposed than then the German banks, but there's still some pretty significant exposure on the German side.

Harik
Sep 9, 2001

From the hard streets of Moscow
First dog to touch the stars


Plaster Town Cop

DerDestroyer posted:

Every time I see the news I see yet another European country coming to Germany for a welfare check and I just sigh. It's like the entire Eurozone wants to get hitched on Hartz IV.

The idea is to get the public to own the debts instead of the banks before the music stops and all the weak countries default. It's not a particularly good idea for anyone but the major bank shareholders, but it's the idea.

Shbobdb
Dec 16, 2010

by Reene
Back-in-the-day, I was an ardent APPD supporter -- and by that I mean, a worthless drunk. What have they been up to lately?

hankor
May 7, 2009

The feast is not the most important meal of the day.
Breakfast is!
They were deemed not organized and serious enough to run in the general election in 2009 and ran in a single voting district in the Berlin election last week where they were soundly beaten by a similar but not quite as silly party (Bergpartei). So I guess you can be proud that they didn't sell out I guess.

sauer kraut
Oct 2, 2004

WTBCzero posted:

How likely is it that Germany will keep to its plans to shut down all of its nuclear power stations? I read a analysis somewhere that this decision was made in the expectation it could be reversed later when anti-nuclear feelings had died down a bit.

It has been going back and forth for a couple of years. The Social Democrat/Green Party coalition put all NPPs on a mid term but definite shutdown plan based on the individual plants' age a couple years ago. But then the Conservative/Upper Class party took over Berlin and extended those plans or softened them up for the powerful Big Power companies.

Then recently two (well three) things happened that made the Conservatives flip on that position.
Japan came awfully close to a Chernobyl. The EU went down the shitter and people are upset with Merkel because she wants to bail out lazy southerners no matter what.
Finally the Green Party, for the first time ever, won a state governor election (in ultra conservative Swabia no less) effectively turing the old "two party plus some small poo poo" system into a three way game, with little hope of the Conservatives ever ruling again because the Upper Class party is collapsing into a black hole at the same time.

Imo the last two points are long term trends, and it's unlikely that Conservatives could wiggle out of this again or they'd get crushed by the Green Party.

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

BexGu posted:

unixbeard, are you German or living in Germany? Im real curious on how Germany is taking basically being the corner stone of the Euro.

I'm a German citizen and live in Germany but I grew up in Australia and haven't really been here that long so my viewpoint is really as a foreigner living in Germany.

From what I've seen the response is mixed, there is definitely populist sentiment against the current situation but the economic reality is that Germany has benefited hugely from the Euro. Countries don't go broke overnight and the situation in Greece had been building up over many years, and the lack of political will across the euro zone is what let it get to this point. It's not like Germany is without sin.

DerDestroyer posted:

Is there any truth to this financial bailout of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etc as being nothing more than a very indirect way of bailing out German banks who actually own the debt and would be insoluble if there were defaults?

There is a lot of truth to that. The problem is all the banks lend money to one another all the time for very short periods of time (days). This creates what is called liquidity and is needed so banks can meet the requests of people withdrawing their cash, paying employees etc. Here is a simplified example:

Bank A gets a bunch of deposits and lends it out most of it for 2 years so it can pay interest on the deposits.
For whatever reason, over the next 1-2 months more people come to withdraw their money than they forecast. The bank has the money but it is locked up because it lent it out for a while, so they can't get it back just now.
Bank A will go to bank B and borrow just enough cash to meet the withdrawal requests, and when their loan or other mature it will pay back Bank B.

And this all works fine and has worked fine for many decades.

Now lets say Bank A lent that money to Greece. If Greece defaults, all of a sudden Bank A is missing a bunch of cash it needs to pay back depositors. That's bad in itself, but not insurmountable as maybe the local regulators of Bank A have some money available to pay back the the depositors.

The real problem is when Bank A goes to Bank B to borrow short term. Bank B knows Bank A has a lot of Greek debt. Bank B is rightly starting to worry that if it lends it to Bank A, and Bank A has to declare bankruptcy due to Greek default, maybe Bank B wont get their short term loan back. If the situation gets bad enough, the only sensible thing for Bank B is to not lend to Bank A, and you end up with a liquidity crisis as no-one is lending to anyone else, and the short term liquidity that keeps an economy ticking over dries up. It would be a repeat of the GFC from 2008, no one knows who is solvent and who is safe to lend to (at an institutional level), so no one lends.

When you also take into account that a lot of other banks and pension funds etc have lent money to Bank A, if it goes under it will throw into question all of those other banks and you get the contagion effect. It is a situation that is clearly best avoided.

quote:

I'll be coming to Germany on an Internship this Spring and I'm hoping to land something permanent afterwards. How likely is the entire German economy going to collapse into a clusterfuck of unemployment and austerity measures within the next 2-3 years?

It's unlikely in my opinion. There are a lot of problems but everyone is in the same boat so to speak. Like if you take China that has lent a lot of money, for sure it could drive countries to bankruptcy but those countries are the ones that buy Chinese goods that have made it so rich. So if they go under all of a sudden China loses its export markets which would be very damaging to its financial position and stability. It is in everyones interest to find a solution, and thanks to the GFC politicians are at least aware of how bad things can actually get.

The media likes to hype it up and sell doom and gloom cause that's what gets readers. Complete economic destruction is pretty rare, and when you have 80 million people who all need basic services at a very bare minimum, something will happen. You can see a chart of unemployment by state here: http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/2192/umfrage/durchschnittliche-arbeitslosenquote-nach-bundeslaendern/ which is all in German unfortunately and you need to register to get the numbers. The top states are all from the historic east while the lower ones like Bayern and Ba-Wu have very low rates, I think around 5% or lower.

It is not over yet though and never say never I guess. Just pray nothing bad happens to China, at least until the US sorts itself out.

WTBCzero posted:

How likely is it that Germany will keep to its plans to shut down all of its nuclear power stations? I read a analysis somewhere that this decision was made in the expectation it could be reversed later when anti-nuclear feelings had died down a bit.

I couldn't really comment on if it will be reversed, however it seems like they are purchasing a lot of nuclear generated power from other countries like France and somewhere in Eastern Europe. Germany has been a leader in alternative energy sources however they are heavily subsidised, and I believe recently they cut the subsidy to solar panels which gutted the industry somewhat. If there is a protracted economic crisis I would expect further subsidy cuts.

unixbeard fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Sep 26, 2011

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

quote:

I couldn't really comment on if it will be reversed, however it seems like they are purchasing a lot of nuclear generated power from other countries like France and somewhere in Eastern Europe.

Germany has exported electricity for much of the last few years, including the recent months where the NPPs were off the net. The biggest problem is getting the electricity that is produced to every corner of the country without placing powerlines on every free square inch.

quote:

How likely is it that Germany will keep to its plans to shut down all of its nuclear power stations? I read a analysis somewhere that this decision was made in the expectation it could be reversed later when anti-nuclear feelings had died down a bit.

I highly doubt that the Exit from the Exit from the Exit from the Exit could be made without sparking an armed revolution. Merkel's move to extend the life of NPPs was met with widespread criticism, especially since it included provisions that would have made it difficult to reverse this decision if they lost an election later on and a new government came into power. Basically a giant middle finger to the Greens. Then Fukushima happened, and the conservatives realized that there is a whopping 70 or so % of the population that want out of the nuclear power production. Opposing them is not a recipe for success, and so they ate the poo poo sandwich and repealled their own decision which they had made difficult (read: expensive) to repeal. Karma at work.

ArchangeI fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Sep 26, 2011

Jinx
Sep 9, 2001

Violence and Bloodshed

unixbeard posted:

I'm a German citizen and live in Germany but I grew up in Australia and haven't really been here that long so my viewpoint is really as a foreigner living in Germany.

Not to side-track the thread, but as a Polish citizen living in Poland, who recently migrated here from err...a few different places (including NZ and AUS), I am curious as to your experiences when it comes to fitting in with your German colleagues? Do you have much of an accent? Do you think there is significant 'Englishification' in Germany? And what is your opinion about it?

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

Jinx posted:

Not to side-track the thread, but as a Polish citizen living in Poland, who recently migrated here from err...a few different places (including NZ and AUS), I am curious as to your experiences when it comes to fitting in with your German colleagues? Do you have much of an accent? Do you think there is significant 'Englishification' in Germany? And what is your opinion about it?

I think my accent is pretty bad, and I wish I spoke German better which is mostly my fault for being a lazy language student. Imagine Steve Irwin speaking baby german and you're bound to get some confused looks along the way. The culture is definitely different from the Anglo culture I am used to, but people are people and I have never felt ostracised because I was a foreigner or anything like that. I live in Berlin which is not a typical German city but I can't imagine the cultural values being vastly different in other places.

I personally don't see a great "Englishification" in Germany, but you get a lot of say US TV shows here etc which does have a cultural impact as it did in Australia.

niethan
Nov 22, 2005

Don't be scared, homie!

unixbeard posted:

The culture is definitely different from the Anglo culture I am used to.

What are some of the differences?

DerDestroyer
Jun 27, 2006

unixbeard posted:


It's unlikely in my opinion. There are a lot of problems but everyone is in the same boat so to speak. Like if you take China that has lent a lot of money, for sure it could drive countries to bankruptcy but those countries are the ones that buy Chinese goods that have made it so rich. So if they go under all of a sudden China loses its export markets which would be very damaging to its financial position and stability. It is in everyones interest to find a solution, and thanks to the GFC politicians are at least aware of how bad things can actually get.

No government is perfect, naturally but if there's one country I can trust to get all this right It's gotta be the Germans. I'm sure whichever leader or economist finds a solution to this economic problem we have this year will probably become a legend like Roosevelt and Keynes.

By the way, what is the diplomatic relationship with Germany and Russia like right now? Will German political independence be heavily compromised by their reliance on the new pipeline they have with the Russians?

DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 26, 2011

unixbeard
Dec 29, 2004

niethan posted:

What are some of the differences?

For one thing the attitude towards friendship is different. Say in Australia you have the concepts of "mates" which to a degree means a superficial friendship with everyone you've ever met. Germans seem a little more "closed" when you meet someone new, however I do feel that my German friends would give me the shirt off their back if i needed it, which differs from the more casual friendships I was used to.

Also, community and looking out for one another seems to be taken a lot more seriously here then it was in Sydney. For example it seems pretty common that people in WG's cook and eat together which was never something I experienced living in share houses. It's obviously not all of them that are like that, but it is definitely more common. Everyone also seems to be vastly more politically aware than in Australia, where most people are pretty apathetic about it. It would be a while before you ever saw something like the pirate party get people voted in.

The attitudes to education and work seem to be different as well, I think the social support is where that comes from. Like my cousin's boyfriend was 28 and had never had a job. That is pretty much unthinkable in Australia, but if you add in 18 months civil service, a four year degree, maybe a year travelling and further study it doesn't seem uncommon. In Australia the social support for students is minimal so most people do a three year degree then enter the workforce because they are tired of living in a dump and eating 2 minute noodles every night. Sydney is quite an expensive place to live so unless you are making decent money your quality of life can take a bit of a hit and life can be quite stressful. People seem to be more focussed on their career and work back in Australia, if only out of necessity.

The work environment seems more hierarchical, you have your manager and your managers manager and unless you've been at the same company for 40 years you wont get much say in decision making. They are also a lot more methodical in the way projects are done, there's a lot of planning and discussion, to the point where actual implementation becomes almost an afterthought. I find it a little slow sometimes, but usually things are done to a high standard when they are completed. The discussions are also great because you're free to speak your mind and have your concerns addressed, rather than dancing around issues trying to be polite. Most people I worked with are pretty open about what they are thinking and what they are after, which is refreshing. I think thats why some people from anglo cultures find Germans a bit blunt. I still sometimes feel like im being interrogated when I leave a social situation early or something. "Where are you going? Why cant you stay here?" look i just gotta go do some stuff OK, it's all boring so ill spare you the details. Those are kind of hostile questions where I'm from but here people are just interested I guess.

There's just a million little things like that. Also I have memorized the product lines for about five different supermarket chains. If i want a cheese I like I go to one place, a cereal i like its somewhere else, the tuna i like a different one, that's also something a bit different. Shops are also open on Sundays as well, l was used to being able to go grocery shopping at 10pm on a sunday night and I would go to one place and it would have multiple varieties of everything and high quality fruit/vegetables etc. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other its just one of the little things I had to adjust to.

The church seems more powerful here as well, I read something a while back that Berlin liberalised its Sunday trading laws but the political representation of the Church intervened at a federal level and they had to change it back. Details of that stuff I miss out on because its local to Germany so not really covered in English, and I've learnt my lesson about reading Spiegel international edition.

I don't really like to generalise about Germany or Germans based on my experiences, which are limited and reflective of the people I've meet and the circles I am in, but those are just some of the things that have struck me about living here.

hankor
May 7, 2009

The feast is not the most important meal of the day.
Breakfast is!
Having done the whole Work and Travel spiel as a farmhand and salesman in a commercial and domestic environment in Australia my admittedly short experience mirrors yours. I was pretty flabbergasted that people invited me into their homes on a regular basis when I was pitching charities in the suburbs of sydney.

unixbeard posted:

There's just a million little things like that. Also I have memorized the product lines for about five different supermarket chains. If i want a cheese I like I go to one place, a cereal i like its somewhere else, the tuna i like a different one, that's also something a bit different. Shops are also open on Sundays as well, l was used to being able to go grocery shopping at 10pm on a sunday night and I would go to one place and it would have multiple varieties of everything and high quality fruit/vegetables etc. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other its just one of the little things I had to adjust to.


I get the suspicion you don't quite grasp the different kind of german grocery shopping. If you are looking for big stores like target you are not looking for regular supermarkets you are looking for unusually large stores like "Kaufland", those are not that common.

From the sound of it you seem to shop mostly at "Discounter"s like "Netto", "Plus" and "Aldi", those are not proper supermarkets, as you mentioned they have a rather lackluster choice and very few brand products. Maybe you should have a look at supermarkets like "Edeka", "Reichelt" or "Kaisers", usually they are a bit more expensive but they offer a lot more choice, especially if you are looking for fresh products, their generic brands aren't that bad either.

Deceitful Penguin
Feb 16, 2011
I was an exchange student in Schawben, anything interesting happen there recently?

cant cook creole bream
Aug 15, 2011
I think Fahrenheit is better for weather

DerDestroyer posted:

By the way, what is the diplomatic relationship with Germany and Russia like right now? Will German political independence be heavily compromised by their reliance on the new pipeline they have with the Russians?

Hey! I am a college student from western Germany. I guess I can answer some questions if I am around.

Our realations with the Russians aren't bad. I wouldn't say that we are best friends, but both sides profit from professional cooperations. It might change a little though. Germany opposes the fact that Putins pary is basically guaranteed to win the next election. The relationship wont break down if the All-Russia People's Front gets "elected", but it might cool down.

We are actually kind of determinated when it comes to democracy. Political corruption is a thing which really manages to enrage the average person around here. Sure it happens and often enough noone even notices it. But if something serious reaches the papers, the public wont forget it to soon. I think this is different from the American public. From what I can see, your media is a little bit oblivious when it comes to some things.

No there wasn't really anything happening Schwaben.

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Whats up with bashing southern Germany? Or does southerners describe Italy/Spain/Greece?

ReV VAdAUL
Oct 3, 2004

I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Boiled Water posted:

Whats up with bashing southern Germany? Or does southerners describe Italy/Spain/Greece?

The latter. While Germany profited immensely from exporting stuff to the European South / Periphery due to the increased purchasing power and borrowing ability the Euro gave their comparatively weak economies now those economies are deeply in debt because of the Euro essentially being a currency peg Germany is suddenly very upset with their spending habits.

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Bashing Bavarians is cool too though.

Also, what's up with fat male Germans wearing cowboy hats? I see this all the drat time.

Resource
Aug 6, 2006
Yay!
Any advice for places to find information on getting a job in Germany? I have German citizenship, but I've been living in the states for most of my life. I have some family over there, but I could use some resources specific to moving there to work.

Shbobdb
Dec 16, 2010

by Reene
The parallels between Bavarians and Texans are pretty apt. They both talk funny, wear awkward forms of dress without a hint of irony, they express a longing and glorification of when their former status as independent states (though, to be fair, plenty of areas in Germany have this), their culture is one of the major lenses through which the entire country's culture is viewed (internationally speaking) and they suck.

cgeq
Jun 5, 2004

Resource posted:

Any advice for places to find information on getting a job in Germany? I have German citizenship, but I've been living in the states for most of my life. I have some family over there, but I could use some resources specific to moving there to work.

Wow, it's like watching myself in a post.
This land's time draws short. Let us return from whence we came.

hankor
May 7, 2009

The feast is not the most important meal of the day.
Breakfast is!

ReV VAdAUL posted:

The latter. While Germany profited immensely from exporting stuff to the European South / Periphery due to the increased purchasing power and borrowing ability the Euro gave their comparatively weak economies now those economies are deeply in debt because of the Euro essentially being a currency peg Germany is suddenly very upset with their spending habits.

Having a free trade zone and a common currency that eliminates exchange rates is pretty much the most important part of the Euro. The theoretical increase in purchasing power actually is what created problems for Portugal and Spain in the first place, the cost of living increased massively while the wages remained stable, a few years down the line it's not unlikely to see the same thing happening in Poland. While this sucks for the moment, it's a thing that can and will be fixed once the troubled economies fully adopt the changed market.

The reason Germany is upset with Greece in particular is because they flat out lied about their situation without having a contingency plan, which has almost nothing to do with the Euro itself and everything with a laissez faire approach when it comes to taxation and corruption. The reason Greece is such a problem is because the country is broken. The government can't communicate it's actions to the citizens and even if it could, the needed reforms not only in the governmental structure but in the basic way people live are so massive that it's nothing you want to rush into because somebody forces you (which is what's happening now because needed change was postponed for too long).

Previously on GBS
Jul 13, 2007

Resource posted:

Any advice for places to find information on getting a job in Germany? I have German citizenship, but I've been living in the states for most of my life. I have some family over there, but I could use some resources specific to moving there to work.

Do you speak German? Do you have a agree? What kind of job are you looking for?


Shbobdb posted:

The parallels between Bavarians and Texans are pretty apt. They both talk funny, wear awkward forms of dress without a hint of irony, they express a longing and glorification of when their former status as independent states (though, to be fair, plenty of areas in Germany have this), their culture is one of the major lenses through which the entire country's culture is viewed (internationally speaking) and they suck.

It's really a lot more complex than that. Bavaria is more like Texas would be if Boston was in Texas and there were no other major cities in the state. Something like that.
(I have lived in Munich and Boston but I have never been to Texas.)

elwood
Mar 28, 2001

by Smythe

hankor posted:

The reason Germany is upset with Greece in particular is because they flat out lied about their situation without having a contingency plan, which has almost nothing to do with the Euro itself and everything with a laissez faire approach when it comes to taxation and corruption.

It reeks of hypocrisy though when (german) politicians feign outrage now even though they clearly knew what was going on. It's not as if it wasn't known that greece bend the rules. They all looked away and hoped for the best.

niethan
Nov 22, 2005

Don't be scared, homie!

Resource posted:

Any advice for places to find information on getting a job in Germany? I have German citizenship, but I've been living in the states for most of my life. I have some family over there, but I could use some resources specific to moving there to work.
I've had good experience using monster.de and stepstone.de

hankor
May 7, 2009

The feast is not the most important meal of the day.
Breakfast is!

elwood posted:

It reeks of hypocrisy though when (german) politicians feign outrage now even though they clearly knew what was going on. It's not as if it wasn't known that greece bend the rules. They all looked away and hoped for the best.

Even when Greece had no choice but to disclose how much of a gently caress up their budget was, they still withheld information that would have revealed the full extent of the situation. While I don't think german politicians didn't suspect that the rabit hole was deeper than anyone was ready to admit, I think there was still a sliver of trust in the greek government left, calling them out on it would've probably done more harm than good from that perspective since the resulting fines and loss of market trust would've let to a clusterfuck similar to the one we see now, even if the situation wasn't as dire yet.

So yeah, as always in EU-politics there is a lot of hypocrisy going on but Greece has done it's fair share to warrant some genuine outrage. It's going to be an interesting ride, loosing them is not an option since it would question the european idea, keeping them up indefinitely by throwing money at them would be absurd and getting them back on their feet is hard. If we (europeans) succeed in doing so it might shut up the polemic knuckleheads that try to paint the EU as a threat to Germany, when in reality we are the ones that profit the most.

elwood
Mar 28, 2001

by Smythe
In other news: According to the latest polls, the pirate party would get 7 % nationwide right now with a dissmisal 2 % for the FDP.

DerDestroyer
Jun 27, 2006
*nevermind

DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Sep 28, 2011

Sereri
Sep 30, 2008

awwwrigami

"elwood" posted:

In other news: According to the latest polls, the pirate party would get 7 % nationwide right now with a dissmisal 2 % for the FDP.

I can't decide if that is terrible or hilarious. Oh well at least the pirates are getting the protest votes now and not the nazis or the Linke.

Sereri
Sep 30, 2008

awwwrigami

E: double post. drat you awful app. :argh:

Yadoppsi
May 10, 2009

Sereri posted:

I can't decide if that is terrible or hilarious. Oh well at least the pirates are getting the protest votes now and not the nazis or the Linke.

What's wrong with die Linke?

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

Sereri posted:

I can't decide if that is terrible or hilarious. Oh well at least the pirates are getting the protest votes now and not the nazis or the Linke.

I'm going with hilarious, especially considering the internal arguliner (is that even a word?) for the JuLis that was leaked two years ago: http://kontroversen.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/julis-haben-angst-vor-der-piratenpartei-2009.pdf.
I can't find an english version right now but the gist is that it recommended to marginalize the Pirates and not treat them as a "real" party during conversation. Looks like that didn't work out too well :v:

elwood
Mar 28, 2001

by Smythe

Yadoppsi posted:

What's wrong with die Linke?

The far left wing of the party is what's wrong with them. A party were an influential part sees the wall a necessity is, for me at least, not electable.

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Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010

Hi there, would you like to try some spicy products?
Aren't there even a couple of ranking folks in Die Linke that get hard for old time SED talk and values and some guys that denied Stasi-crimes and whatnot? Heard something to that effect a while back, couple of years back at this point, I guess.

Duzzy Funlop fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Sep 28, 2011

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