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I wonder if the sovereign debt crisis in Europe will have any impact on how liberals in the US look at the Socialist Utopia that is Europe. What does the average German think about bailing out PIIGS?
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Sep 30, 2011 08:01
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Orange Devil posted:I absolutely loathe the country. Don't take it personal though I doubt anyone will, but I also strongly doubt your view is unbiased. You may not have loathed the country before being there, but I'm guessing a couple of things went wrong for you or adjusting to unfamiliar things inconvenienced you in a way that subsequently amplified everything else you experienced adversely. I'm not going pseudo-psychoanalytic on you here, but while all of the things you mentioned could very well happen anywhere in germany, claiming that these are standard situations everywhere in germany is just plain ol' bullshit. (Except for the Telekom thing, because gently caress those guys.) Also: Orange Devil posted:I've lived in Frankfurt am Main for the better part of three years now. Dude...I've lived in Frankfurt for considerably less time and I almost started hating germany. Frankfurt is Germany's Baltimore...or the Netherlands'...well, whatever your Baltimore is. I have 2 other friends that had a similar experience in germany. In both cases, it started with little things that annoyed them and ended with them turning into cynical assholes that generalized and projected a lot. In one case, the hate was kina warranted though, because everything terribly/annoyingly german that I've experienced in 30 years happened to this guy over the course of barely a year.
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Sep 30, 2011 08:30
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Orange Devil posted:We've had 5 law suits in the last 4 years and none of them got settled out of court. Neither me nor my parents ever had the need for any lawsuits in the Netherlands in my lifetime as far as I can remember. I've been living in germany for 33 years now and I've never had a need for a lawyer or had a law suit thrown at me. quote:Also be happy the German government doesn't pass laws that allow them to monitor your activities on the internet and telephone without a warrant and log every detail of it. quote:The German Bundestag had implemented the directive in "Gesetz zur Neuregelung der Telekommunikationsüberwachung und anderer verdeckter Ermittlungsmaßnahmen sowie zur Umsetzung der Richtlinie 2006/24/EG".[17] The law became valid on 1 January 2008. Any communications data had to be retained for six months. On 2 March 2010, the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany ruled the law unconstitutional as a violation of the guarantee of the secrecy of correspondence.[18] As such, the directive is not currently implemented in Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Germany and now guess what the CDU is trying to get back...
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Sep 30, 2011 08:43
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DerDestroyer posted:Live in Canada or the United States and your opinion will quickly change. Both myself and my relatives who live there love Germany. When there are so many things fundamentally wrong with your home country you quickly give little things like this the benefit of the doubt. Be happy Deutsche Telekom doesn't throttle your connection and limit the amount of bandwidth you use per month. Also be happy the German government doesn't pass laws that allow them to monitor your activities on the internet and telephone without a warrant and log every detail of it. Kabel Deutschland throttles my internet connection. I ultimately switched to them because it took me OVER 2 MONTHS to get a connection with 1&1 set up and I rage cancelled my contract. When I had Telekom years back, it also took them around a month and a half to get my internet connection set up. The problem is that you see a lot of the seemingly competing internet providers, but since Telekom still physically owns all of the telephone lines, every provider ultimately has to go through them anyhow. So no matter which provider you choose, they still have to arrange an agreement with the Telekom to free up a phone line. Since KD doesn't go through the phone lines, you don't have to deal with the Telekom ratfuckery, but as I said earlier, they do throttle your connection on weekends and weekdays after 5 pm (which apparently varies from region to region).
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Sep 30, 2011 08:56
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clownpenis posted:Kabel Deutschland throttles my internet connection. I ultimately switched to them because it took me OVER 2 MONTHS to get a connection with 1&1 set up and I rage cancelled my contract. When I had Telekom years back, it also took them around a month and a half to get my internet connection set up. The problem is that you see a lot of the seemingly competing internet providers, but since Telekom still physically owns all of the telephone lines, every provider ultimately has to go through them anyhow. So no matter which provider you choose, they still have to arrange an agreement with the Telekom to free up a phone line. I've been with KD from 05 to 07 then with Arcor between 07 and 09 and now KD again eversince and I have only experienced the throttling once during a period that lasted about a month. It was annoying as gently caress though, the only upside was that it was absolutely punctual. weekdays from 6pm to 6am and the entire day on saturday and sunday. But outside of that, I've been more than happy with KD the entire time, the one time I switched was because they couldn't supply anything over 2Mbit while Arcor offered 6Mbit. Sure enough, KD upgraded their service to offer 12 Mbit lines in the region i lived in roughly 4 months into my 2 year contract with Arcor. elwood posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention#Germany I thought they completely buried that one politically...which votes were they going for with that back then anyway? I remember a bit of a ruckus on the web, but nothing worth mentioning in the news.
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Sep 30, 2011 09:39
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clownpenis posted:Kabel Deutschland throttles my internet connection. I ultimately switched to them because it took me OVER 2 MONTHS to get a connection with 1&1 set up and I rage cancelled my contract. You should be more than happy that you did not end up with 1 & 1. They are the worst company I've ever had the pleasure to be involved with. Telekom is chicken poo poo compared to them. I've changed from telekom dsl light 1mbit to 32 mbit with unitymedia (128 mbit is available but overkill) and so far I really get around 4 mb/sec down.
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Sep 30, 2011 10:05
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cremnob posted:I wonder if the sovereign debt crisis in Europe will have any impact on how liberals in the US look at the Socialist Utopia that is Europe. According to current polls 75% of the population are against the bailout. People are very much aware that we don't bail out Greece, because we need to save the Euro, or for the greater good of the "European Idea", but because the Governments are deathly afraid of Greece and the other PIIGS defaulting on their credit, and sinking the banks holding the aforementioned credit, creating multiple Lehman like situations in Europe. More and more people realize that the EU isn't about it's people, but rather about it's money, and are increadingly pissed off.
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Sep 30, 2011 10:16
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Stuhlmajor posted:I thought they completely buried that one politically...which votes were they going for with that back then anyway? I remember a bit of a ruckus on the web, but nothing worth mentioning in the news. http://www.computerbase.de/news/2011-09/vorratsdatenspeicherung-union-laesst-nicht-locker/
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Sep 30, 2011 10:18
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Living as a foreigner in Amsterdam, I was surprised at how many strange stereotypes the Dutch have of the Belgians, which is akin to the way Americans poke fun at Canada. Before coming here I had never given the Belgians enough thought to form a stereotype about them. I guess it is a general rule that you don't have any stereotypes in your head about a people unless you are near them and interact with them. For example, I doubt anyone here can think of any trait that they think of as typical for Burma or Vanuatu. One way to understand a country is the way it looks at others. I'm not really interested in how the Germans view France or Poland or Italy, because those countries have stereotypes that exist on the radar of most people in the West. I'm more curious about what percieved stereotypes exist about the little countries neighboring Germany that most people in the English-speaking world never think about, like Austria, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Luxemburg, and other low-key countries nearby. (Don't worry, we won't get upset about hearing Germans poke fun at their little neighbors. I think all countries have some strange preconceived notions about their neighbors and it can be quite funny to hear them.) Edit: And what's the deal with Denmark closing off their border with Germany? karmaconfetti fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 10:38
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Stereotypes Germans have about their neighbouring countries: Swirtzerland: Even more perfectionist than Germany, rather quaint and a bit boring, epicenter of worlds shady financial deals, talk funny. Austria: Our ski resort. Basically like Germany, without the Nazi guilt (famous Austrian saying goes: "Mozart was an Austrian, but Hitler, Hitler was a German"). They are like our little brothers, that we like to make fun of ocassionally. Netherlands: Supplying our weed, and congesting our precious Autobahns ("Schwarze Schrift auf gelbem Grund: Halte Abstand bleib gesund!") Denmark: Definition of boredom ("Compared to Denmark, the Netherlands are like Brazil"), can't drive if their live would depend on it. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 11:05
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DerDestroyer posted:Live in Canada or the United States and your opinion will quickly change. Both myself and my relatives who live there love Germany. When there are so many things fundamentally wrong with your home country you quickly give little things like this the benefit of the doubt. Be happy Deutsche Telekom doesn't throttle your connection and limit the amount of bandwidth you use per month. Also be happy the German government doesn't pass laws that allow them to monitor your activities on the internet and telephone without a warrant and log every detail of it. The Danish government does this! Taps on everything!
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Sep 30, 2011 11:08
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karmaconfetti posted:
They violate Schengen in fear of criminals from south-eastern Europe. The fastest - which is the only route by land - way for those to get to Denmark is through Germany. It doesn't have anything to do with Germany per se.
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Sep 30, 2011 11:15
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DeusEx posted:Stereotypes Gernans have about their neighboring countries: Actually if you live further north Denmark becomes a very nice, if expensive summerbreak destination. Also I bet more than half of Hamburgs post-graduation party-trips are to Denmark.
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Sep 30, 2011 11:19
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The Real Foogla posted:Actually if you live further north Denmark becomes a very nice, if expensive summerbreak destination. Also I bet more than half of Hamburgs post-graduation party-trips are to Denmark. That's very true. Denmark is very beautiful, and being myself from Hamburg I can attest that we drive a lot to Denmark, still it isn't really what you would describe as an "exciting country". 
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Sep 30, 2011 11:23
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karmaconfetti posted:One way to understand a country is the way it looks at others. I doubt that this is a good approach to understanding foreign cultures. For example there's no such thing as a single "Germany" with likes and dislikes like a single person. The german population is divided into lots of different classes, subcultures and tribal/regional groups. An altbau-dwelling well off hipster from Swabia/Berlin lives in a completely different country than an unemployed Hartz IV(a relly vile form of unemployment benefits) receiving small-town person from say, Thuringia. Likewise an upper class Bavarian with a mansion and a selection of the finest sports cars at his hands near the starnberg lake lives even in a completely different reality than a temporary work agency employed have-not on the depressing ourskirts of Bremerhaven. Our schooling system that openly divides people into classes at the end of fourth grade makes things even more diverse and segregated. I would even go so far and claim that a Hauptschule (the shortest and lowest degree of education) educated worker barely belongs to the same culture as a university educated ivory tower professor. From what I've observed this seems to be somewhat different in anglo-saxon countries where there seems to be a pervasive general universally experienced culture throughout most classes, most strongly so in the United States. Maybe a better way to understanding Germany is to realize that there is no monolithic German culture (despite some misguided nationalist's otherwise claims) and consciousness and from there to look at the various subgroups of Germans and their parallel universes. From what I've observed online and in real life a lot of Americans for example mainly come into contact with either rural or urban upper-middle class Germans, since most of them(the Americans) go to universities in the southern part of the country which is also the most affluent and culturally more detached from other parts of Germany. Being restricted to this socio-cultural environment they barely ever meet any different "kind" of German and leave with an at times very inaccurate view of Germany. EDIT: class assignment is at the end of fourth grade not at age five vvvv yeah right, I somehow got it wrong due to writing in English (meant fifth grade, wrote age five) StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 11:38
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StrangeRobot posted:
What are you talking about the first four grades aren't divided. The kids are divided at age ten.
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Sep 30, 2011 11:59
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DerDestroyer posted:Live in Canada or the United States and your opinion will quickly change. Both myself and my relatives who live there love Germany. When there are so many things fundamentally wrong with your home country you quickly give little things like this the benefit of the doubt. Be happy Deutsche Telekom doesn't throttle your connection and limit the amount of bandwidth you use per month. Also be happy the German government doesn't pass laws that allow them to monitor your activities on the internet and telephone without a warrant and log every detail of it. Actually DT has sold our Internet activities to third parties, which resulted in a law suit. Stuhlmajor posted:I doubt anyone will, but I also strongly doubt your view is unbiased. You may not have loathed the country before being there, but I'm guessing a couple of things went wrong for you or adjusting to unfamiliar things inconvenienced you in a way that subsequently amplified everything else you experienced adversely. A bunch of horrible poo poo definitely happened very soon after I moved here, with the highlight being my girlfriend almost dying in a hospital lobby and the staff not giving a poo poo. Most of the bad poo poo usually ends up happening to my girlfriend, and even her parents have trouble believing the amount of poo poo we get here in Frankfurt. So maybe you're right and it is just Frankfurt, in which case you need to read my "stay away from Germany" as "stay away from Frankfurt". On the other hand, it's been an interesting experience. We've sort of had a light-version of living in poverty, where we get about what we need to get by from our parents every month and living in a single room and so on. It makes it very easy to imagine what would have happened to us if we didn't have our parents to fall back on every time something bad happened, which was often. If we had been working poor making the same as we were getting, which is altogether possible, we'd probably both be unemployed, in heavy debt and possibly homeless by now if it wasn't for being able to call the parents. Some of the things I talked about really hit us hard, and my girlfriend has had some psychological problems as a result. The only thing we want now is get our degrees and then get out of Germany as fast as possible. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 12:33
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Orange Devil posted:Actually DT has sold our Internet activities to third parties, which resulted in a law suit. Details pls.
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Sep 30, 2011 12:34
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elwood posted:Details pls. Seconded,like did it result in you sueing them or that third party sueing you, etc.? Don't be such a tease. And I really want details on any proof of that sale or the means to ascertain those allegations.
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Sep 30, 2011 12:51
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elwood posted:Details pls. They sold our internet activity to a bunch of law firms, which proceeded to claim copyright violations to things they don't even own the copyright to as far as I can tell (and they weren't representing the copyright holders either). They then tried to intimidate us into signing a statement saying we were guilty, we'd pay something like 10,000 euros and we wouldn't do it again, which would also do something ridiculous like allow them to monitor our internet activities for 20 years. Fun times getting a threatening letter like that on every holiday and birthday for months. Eventually ended up with a suit which I think we got dismissed because they brought seperate action for each claimed violation through seperate third parties rather than everything together.
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Sep 30, 2011 12:55
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They didn't sell poo poo, the law firms got a court order (probably Landgericht Köln) to hand over your details. They also didn't force you to pay € 10.000, they wanted you to sign a document stating that you stop uploading xy and in case of further violations you agree to pay € 10.000 per infraction. That declaration would have been valid for 30 years.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:04
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elwood posted:They didn't sell poo poo, the law firms got a court order (probably Landgericht Köln) to hand over your details. They also didn't force you to pay € 10.000, they wanted you to sign a document stating that you stop uploading xy and in case of further violations you agree to pay € 10.000 per infraction. That declaration would have been valid for 30 years. OK, I'm just going to trust what the letters and our lawyer said though, if you don't mind.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:06
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The practice of "Abmahnung", what seems to have happened to Orange Devil, is a loving plague on this country. Due to the slow passing of laws for anything internet-related and the resulting unclear legal situations this can actually happen, be legal and utterly gently caress people over. There have been cases like some old woman, who didn't even know what a computer is and having none in her home, getting accused of illegally downloading specific movies. You had seriously bad luck if that happened to you, it's akin to being struck by lightning, not very likely but possible and devastating if it actually happens under the wrong circumstances. There are also lots of scammers and other scum trying to intimidate people into paying whatever bullshit sum they demand. Your best bet in such a situation is to immediately hire a lawyer and let him deny everything in a formal written way, if you ignore the demands for too long in some perverse loophole way even bullshit claims can become valid and then the real fun starts. EDIT: To clarify, I also don't think the Telekom sold anything. But the Abmahnung bullshit going on here is seriously outrageous. StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 13:10
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Ok, I'm not going to argue with you, but a standard Abmahnung follows what I've posted and I'm certain that that is what has happened (because I see it daily). One way or the other Telekom did 100 % not sell your details.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:10
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Orange Devil, you don't know what you are talking about. DT doesn't have anything to do with it. It's still a pretty lovely practice and I hope it will be outlawed soon. http://abmahnwahn-dreipage.de/
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Sep 30, 2011 13:15
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On the topic of illegal downloading and copyright violations: I watched a programme last night where they had a lawyer explain that if you have an unprotected or badly (WEP) protected WLAN (whoever decides when a network is appropriately protected is still open to wild interpretation) running at home you could be hit with the full force of the law if some stranger enters your network and does illegal stuff while there. So the logical conclusion is, apart from the common sense of securing your network for privacy reasons, that you're under a huge legal risk if you don't properly install your networks according to the newest technological standards. Welcome to Germany!
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Sep 30, 2011 13:45
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I think we all agree that the Abmahnungs situation is a disgrace and needs to be dealt with.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:58
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elwood posted:I think we all agree that the Abmahnungs situation is a disgrace and needs to be dealt with. Also Telekom, although apparently not necessarely related.
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Sep 30, 2011 14:00
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Orange Devil posted:Also Telekom, although apparently not necessarely related. Yeah, it's not related but Telekom is a really lovely company. As is Deutsche Bahn. Privatizing them was not a good idea.
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Sep 30, 2011 14:06
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DeusEx posted:Stereotypes Germans have about their neighbouring countries: Austrians: cliffshitters Netherlands: clowngermans
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Sep 30, 2011 14:13
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Seriously, the way to deal with Telekom is to plan around their incompetence yourself. Are you planning to move within Germany and direly need an internet connection at your new home immediately? Then if in any way the Telekom is involved you better have a backup plan for the time it will take them to set up the connection. (which could range from two weeks to several months) To be on the safe side get a mobile internet connection for that time period. An often occurring beginners mistake is to assume that their personell will arrive at the appointed time and set everything up. No wrong! If they miss you by just a second before or after the appointed timespan, something worker friendly like 8:00 a.m. to 4 p.m., or your doorbell is too complicated to find or too inconvenient to reach or a butterfly catches their attention or whatever, they will leave and never return until you hunt them down via email and phone and arrange another appointment that they may or may not charge you money for due to missing the first appointment clearly being your fault. So you basically have to camp out in front of your building the whole day from dawn till dusk, so to speak, grab the fucker by the hand as soon as he or she appears in the distance, lead him to where he or she is supposed to perform the operation and lead them back out, never forget to let them check if it really works this time. Ideally have everything set up by your tech-savy friend so that the only thing missing is the connection, if you don't have a tech-savy friend then may god have mercy upon you. One time I tried to get them to activate my connection I even had a friend operate on their inside, an inflitrator agent, literally, they somehow still managed to gently caress up the order and the subsequent installation. It's like they're doing it on purpose laughing maniacally while hapless citizen's tears flow in agony and helpless desperation. Their personell are competent individually, but as an organisation they never fail to dissapoint. I have never heard of anyone getting their connection without some kind of fuckup. StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 14:26
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I couldn't find an English version so I'll summarize: http://www.net-tribune.de/nt/node/60866/news/Datenschuetzer-fordern-unabhaengige-Pruefung-der-Anti-Terror-Gesetze Data protection authorities are pushing for an independent scientific inspection of the current anti-terror laws. IMO all countries with such laws in place should be doing this.
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Sep 30, 2011 17:11
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snorch posted:I couldn't find an English version so I'll summarize: I like the idea but I have trouble believing that anything worth mentioning will come of this. Consumer/data protection agencies and/or interest groups have convened and pointed fingers before, but always lacked political leverage. But I can't really say anything of the traction this particular conference of DSBs has on the political stage, so something good might come of this after all.
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Sep 30, 2011 17:43
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Just a quick heads-up: If you don't stop hating on Frankfurt I will have this thread closed. It's not okay to single out one city and project all your personal shortcomings on it. You have nobody but yourself to blame. Thank you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 30, 2011 20:12
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StrangeRobot posted:On the topic of illegal downloading and copyright violations: I watched a programme last night where they had a lawyer explain that if you have an unprotected or badly (WEP) protected WLAN (whoever decides when a network is appropriately protected is still open to wild interpretation) running at home you could be hit with the full force of the law if some stranger enters your network and does illegal stuff while there. So the logical conclusion is, apart from the common sense of securing your network for privacy reasons, that you're under a huge legal risk if you don't properly install your networks according to the newest technological standards. Welcome to Germany! That decision is actually pretty sensible in regards to consumers when you think about it. You are required to secure your WLAN with what is the standard at the moment you install it (currently WPA2) you are not required however to update it to whatever is the current standard. People that aren't savvy with computers will get preinstalled solutions from the providers and leave the sufficiently secure settings. Whoever fiddles around with his security setting either knows what he is doing or willingly ignores common sense. Contrary to popular believe we do punish people for being idiots which is a good thing. The real problem is with public hot spots where the only solution would be to register every user which is rather inconvenient. Quite frankly outside of a controlling body that issues ID's that can be traced to a single individual I have no idea how you could effectively do something like that. While I agree that you have the right to use the internet effectively anonymous, when you do something that is against the law you should be held accountable, this includes people that willingly or due to negligence support you in your actions.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:22
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elwood posted:I've been living in germany for 33 years now and I've never had a need for a lawyer or had a law suit thrown at me. Yeah but it looks like they ultimately didn't succeed. We have a majority conservative government in Canada that can ram legislation like this through without anything to stop them. I'm on the fence about the German education system by the way. I hear all kinds of horror stories of how well educated foreign students get sent back 4 grades because they're foreign or something. I also hear stories of teachers deliberately recommending hauptschule for children of immigrant background out of some racial bias. Alternatively, I think that there is a great deal of entitlement in places like Canada and the US and too much of a drive for University education without enough jobs to satisfy the supply of people who studied humanities and political science. Somewhere down the line someone decided you must have a University education to get a nice white collar job. If you don't have University, then you somehow failed life. I argue that for those seeking proper career training and a positive future in the job market then University is not necessarily appropriate nor desirable. Yet for whatever reason we have this culture that our standard of living will improve with a Bachelor's degree and I simply disagree with this sentiment. I don't think everyone has the skill set necessary to go to University. In all likelihood I would probably have been sent to Gesamtschule or Realschule if I was German unless my parents stepped in and aggressively forced a Gymnasium entry. I don't think there's anything wrong with becoming an apprentice in the trades. Some people just naturally have an inclination towards those kinds of jobs. Would you rather have an idiot doctor or a really good Werkstattmeister? At least from what I've been told by other Germans it seems people involved in more vocational careers are respected for what they do, especially if they're good at it. In some cases they even make more money than a white collar worker. Meanwhile where I live anyone in a vocational career tends to be looked down upon as stupid or lower class. Even if they're really skilled at what they do they are somehow less qualified than an over entitled rich kid who studied history. I'm not looking down on history majors but I am saying that if you want a job University shouldn't be the be all and end all of qualifications. More valuable skills can be learned elsewhere.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:42
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We have what I believe the Anglo-Saxon world calls "tracking" in Dutch schools as well, starting in high school (after 8 years of primary school, starting at age 4), and I've always thought it is a really good idea. It helps that there's pretty good mobility between the various kinds of secondary education. I don't know how much of that Germany has, but it's certainly possible to have either way. I've also heard that a lot of the stuff you learn at American undergrad in university is highest level high school level stuff over here, probably as a result of everyone being in the same class in high school over there. I can see how you can make arguments against tracking, but the allergic reaction I tend to find in US media about it is just so completely alien to me.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:50
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You are aware that you aren't necessarily "forced" into a specific school curiculum, you are recommended one.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:57
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The only problem I see with the system is that there are some genuinely intelligent kids out there who simply lack the motivation or drive to study for some courses because it doesn't interest them or hold any practical meaning. Conversely, there's a lot of kids in North America who really have no business being in higher education who are constantly given a sense of entitlement and positive reinforcement despite not performing appropriately. People in North America are taught that everyone's a winner and that everyone is special and thus under performing people are isolated from the reality of failure. I believe when I went to primary school it was literally impossible to be held back a grade unless you REALLY screwed up and thus you got people being promoted through the school system who really had no business in a higher grade.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:58
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az posted:You are aware that you aren't necessarily "forced" into a specific school curiculum, you are recommended one. Some states force you, other just make a recommendation
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Sep 30, 2011 21:05
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