|
Plankalkuel posted:
I am sure all was well in your private, paid for, esotherical, left leaning happyfunschool. Can you still dance your name? Ad Astra fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 2, 2011 |
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 04:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 05:24 |
|
|
DerDestroyer posted:My understanding is anyone from the Balkans in Germany endures the same discrimination as middle-eastern or black people even though they're technically white and European. Despite having been Canadian for more than 20 years I've always been terrified that having a east European sounding name and "Serbia" written on my place of birth in my passport will condemn me to some severe discrimination in Germany. Your place of Birth is also vividly displayed on your Personalausweis and I feel like this is a way to add to any distinctions in case you are able to speak perfect German and blend into the crowd. It doesn't help that Serbians living in Germany have traditionally been thieves, swindlers and criminals or that Serbia was involved in a genocide a very short time ago. The Balkans are bit tricky indeed. Generally the Balkans are referred to as south-eastern Europe, which already has bit of a more negative connotation than just eastern Europe. South-Eastern Europe often evokes association of "Gypsies", though of course no one would openly admit to it. It's mixed though: Croatia for example is regarded as a "good" country, because it's a popular tourist place, and they have been traditional allies in the not so good'ol times of WW2 (it's funny how in the public subconscious old allies from those times retain a "reputation bonus", even though many people don't know that these countries were friends with Germany "back then" anymore). On the other hand the average German would probably feel safer in Baghdad or Kabul than in the Albanian capital of Tirana. Being from Albania is probably worse than being from anywhere in the middle east. Serbia is kind of in the middle. It does have the negative reputation from the Milosovic days, and though one would assume that a country with a history like Germany would be less judgmental about war crimes, it annoyingly really isn't. We like to point out how other countries "don't face their history, like we have done", and people really, honestly think that Germany is a shining beacon of human rights now, that is not only allowed, but morally obligated to to "friendly remind" other nations of their present or even past human rights violations, because we have "learned from history" or such drivel. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 09:25
|
|
|
Confusion posted:Believe it or not, but not every child has the same capabilities. Raising all schools to the Gymnasium level is simply impossible because not everybody can reach that level, no matter how much you invest in it. Futhermore, you'd be making a lot of kids very miserable, as trying to push somebody above his level is an incredibly frustrating experience for that person. Well, more than 50% of all students do attend the Gymnasium already right now so it's not like it's some kind of elite track for the best of the best. Having done the Abitur myself, I have to say that it was ridiculously easy to finish Gymnasium if you were correctly prepared during the formative years of the Grundschule (Grades one to four, for our foreign readers). Basically as long as you attended class regularly you couldn't fail, I attribute that to the excellent qualifications of the teachers and the learning friendly atmosphere. Pretty much everybody who got kicked out (mostly they ended up at Realschule) along the way either started skipping classes or seriously neglecting homework due to whatever problems at home. Certainly not every child does show the same capabilities but that's not due to some inherent genetical superiority of upper and middle class children but due to their higher exposure to education, higher valuing of education and learning and routine use of more refined high German at home, after school ends. Like I wrote, to balance out those advantages of the privileged you would have to invest huge sums of money into education so that disadvantaged children could receive extra attention. If you right now simply herded the Hauptschülers into the Gymnasiums and left everything else like it is that would lead to spectacular failure, you would release hordes of semi-retarded brutes onto the unsuspecting sheltered children of the middle and upper classes. The upper classes are seriously advantaged right now. Not only do they have the time, energy and education to tutor their children by virtue of having completed the Gymnasium track themselves but they also have the money to hire external tutors if little Karl-Hubertus/Anna-Sophie encounter any learning difficulties. Even if they actually fail to enter Gymnasium (which is absurdly unlikely, teachers will give them extra attention and push them into Gymnasium, just look at those fancy upper class first names, just look at how adorable they are!) they simply get sent off abroad to study at some fancy english/french/swiss boarding school and gloriously return back to Germany with some ridiculous foreign degree that allows them to study at German universities anyway, rejoining their upper class brethren. Kevin and Mandy from the other side of the town on the other hand are pretty much thrown to the wolves right from the beginning. Neglected by their uneducated hard working parents (or more likely, their divorced unemployed single parent) who barely scrape by as it is, they will utterly fail during Grundschule, never acquire the learning techniques and respect for learning and even if they did, the Gymnasium and University educated teachers would probably recommend their parents to put them on the lower tracks anyway(I mean just look at their first names screaming underclass already!). Their parents, having not the slightest idea how the education system works neither the time to inform themselves, would gladly follow the reccomendation. The immigrant experience will vary depending on what class the immigrants belonged to in their country of origin.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 09:41
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:I don't know how it is in Germany, but if I recall correctly, all teachers at all levels in Finland have to have a Masters degree in their field and a teaching degree. I bet that has a lot to do with their good results. In Germany you study "Lehramt" which is basically a "Masters light". Teachers study two fields, so they can teach multiple courses, but not as extensively as a normal Masters student, the reason being probably that they don't teach all that to children anyway. The "Lehramt" degree is usually seen as a 2nd class Masters and teachers in general are not that well respected and viewed as lazy. As far as I know in Finland you need a regular university degree, to become a teacher and a good one at that. However the profession is much more respected in society and paid very well. No wonder, the Finnish system gets better results... Ad Astra posted:Yeah, how did that happen? How did what happen? Me going to a Waldorfschule? Well my father was heavily dyslexic, something completely unknown back in the day, and my mother was the child of the only communist in the village. Both caught absolute hell from their teachers for these things and hated the regular schools subsequently. When the time came, they wanted a school for their children, that wouldn't subject them to such mistreatment for any reason and they picked the Waldorfschule. While this might seem paranoid and irrational, cousins of mine, who were at the age of my older sister, were hassled in school for being grandchildren of a communist. Ironically the Waldorfschule my sister made her Abitur at and which I went to for the first 5 classes was absolute crap and did probably more damage, then some teachers who were still sore about my grandpas political opinions (and the fact that the British made him the major of the village after WWII, because everybody else were Nazi sympathizers). Which smoothly transitions to the next point. No, not everything was well in Waldorfland and I would probably not send my children there, but thats getting awfully e/n. The fact is, that the school costing money doesn't prevent children with problems from joining. Actually it was apparent, that some children were sent there because the regular school system wouldn't have given them as much of a chance. I was never good at dancing my name and have forgotten all about that since then.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 10:11
|
|
|
hankor posted:Crossing the street while the light is red without endangering others? Fine. I usually give very few shits and fucks compared to the average german all-up-in-yo-bidnezz-attitude, but for some reason I am the J-walking Gestapo incarnate. Heck, I'll even go for some awkwardness with those somewhat undecided "aww, gently caress it, I'm crossing"-people by staring them the gently caress down. Those that then avert their eyes even get a little shake of the head from me for good measure. No point doing that with people that waltz across red lights because they simply don't give a gently caress to begin with, but those hesitant folks whose moral-conflict you can actually see happening before they cross deserve a little stinkeye if it makes them uncomfortable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 10:12
|
|
|
Previously on GBS posted:Having students that do better than German students and educating everyone to Abitur level are still very two different things. Besides, if basically everyone in German was middle class and a native speaker of German, we'd also do a lot better. So basically we should sort out those non-native speaker, non-middle class students as early as possible to ensure results on average are better, am I right? There is a big difference of splitting "career paths" at 15/16 or telling kids at age 9/10 to gently caress off with any hopes of a higher education. You don't need to qualify everyone to university levels (Abitur) if you can ensure that they get a good education anyway to qualify them for skilled labor. What we do at the moment is knowingly send children into failure (because we know that the Hauptschulen and even Realschulen in many places are broken), not based on realistic academic reasons, but because nice, decent Germans want to protect their little princes and princesses.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 10:14
|
|
|
DeusEx posted:The Balkans are bit tricky indeed. Generally the Balkans are referred to as south-eastern Europe, which already has bit of a more negative connotation than just eastern Europe. South-Eastern Europe often evokes association of "Gypsies", though of course no one would openly admit to it. I think people from the Balkans have a much worse reputation in Austria (where they're actually a sizable minority) than in Germany. The only time I noticed a significant negative sentiment was we accepted refugees from Kosovo and then they started stabbing people. You're right about the German smugness when it comes to nations that haven't confronted their war crimes. Concerning the German school system: I grew up in one of the conservative (aka good education score) states and trust me, the only injustice that happens is too many dumb kids getting Gymnasium recommendations. Some people just aren't meant for academic work and unlike in the States, where every gardener boasts some pointless college degree, doing an apprenticeship instead isn't a social stigma here. That said, I can't wait to move to Edinburgh for my masters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 10:14
|
|
|
Condiv posted:It's where my university program is sending me this spring and I figured it would be easier to get into a program there since I had already attended the university. It doesn't really matter. The bigger issue is that Master programs apart from the M.Ed. are often extremely small and underattended. They haven't exactly been embraced by Bachelor students, and Paderborn is not a university that can pull a significant amount of qualified students from other instutitions. However, both Münster and Bielefeld are within a 40-minute drive, and they're both making efforts to develop good Master programs that Paderborn probably cannot afford to make. Plankalkuel posted:The "Lehramt" degree is usually seen as a 2nd class Masters and teachers in general are not that well respected and viewed as lazy. I'd say "extremely intellectually lazy" is a more accurate term. The typical M.Ed. student seems to either want the job for the steady paycheck or because they really, really like children, but not because of any passion for the subject. Since the B.A-level classes they have to attend force them to deal with aspects of their chosen subjects that don't transfer 1-1 into their future currriculum, they come to yearn for a ghostly presence hovering over their shoulder telling them exactly what to do with all this information being taught to them. They're some of the most disinterested people I've met. As a consequence you'll hear many M.Ed. students complaining about how useless university is and that they don't bother learning anything they haven't heard about in their own Gym/Ges classes anyway. SNAKES N CAKES fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 10:53
|
|
|
DrewkroDleman posted:Haha, this is so goddamn true with the older Germans. I was being serious.  I'll also call you out if you use your loving mobile as a tinny ghettoblaster on the public transport, I might even call you a rude oval office for it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 11:41
|
|
|
Plankalkuel posted:
No. I meant how did it happen that there were not many immigrants and pupils from low income homes. It is ridiculous to say there was no separation of children if the separation already happened before it started. You had a good experience there and that is nice. But you were sitting in an small ivory tower. To compare that to the other schools you would need to add 400 kids who don't get any help with their homework and 300 turks.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 11:53
|
|
|
hankor posted:I was being serious. Cellphone ghettoblasters, the scourge of modern society. Seriously though, those things are even more annoying when people decide they don't like the music in a bar and play their own terribly dissonant tunes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 12:24
|
|
|
DeusEx posted:though one would assume that a country with a history like Germany would be less judgmental about war crimes, it annoyingly really isn't. We like to point out how other countries "don't face their history, like we have done", and people really, honestly think that Germany is a shining beacon of human rights now, that is not only allowed, but morally obligated to to "friendly remind" other nations of their present or even past human rights violations, because we have "learned from history" or such drivel. And I think everybody is obligated to point out human rights obligations.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 12:31
|
|
|
Stuhlmajor posted:Cellphone ghettoblasters, the scourge of modern society. To be honest I really haven't encountered it much lately, it was pretty bad a couple of years ago but with growing public awareness and a BVG-campaign it has stopped with the possible exception of alcohol laden subway rides in the middle of the night. I've never seen it in a bar but I guess it takes a rather special kind of rear end in a top hat to even consider it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 12:40
|
|
|
Ad Astra posted:No. I meant how did it happen that there were not many immigrants and pupils from low income homes. It is ridiculous to say there was no separation of children if the separation already happened before it started. You had a good experience there and that is nice. But you were sitting in an small ivory tower. To compare that to the other schools you would need to add 400 kids who don't get any help with their homework and 300 turks. Ah a rhetorical question. I think I acknowledged your objections for the most part already in my previous post. In my class were people who had no help with their homework or had otherwise difficult backgrounds. While Waldorfschools require their student's parents to pay, there is also a rule, that if they don't have the money to pay the full fee, they pay what they can. This can mean they pay nothing. So it's not a rich people only club. As long as there is no disproportional amount of people with immigration background, I don't doubt, that a more integrated school would help with problems like language barriers. However once you have classes full of Germans with Turkish ancestry, who can't speak German although their family lives here for several generations, such a system would of course not work. The current school system fails horribly at improving the situation as well, so it's not like we have already a solution to that problem (which is going to require a lot more then a changes to the school system if you ask me, but  ).
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 13:10
|
|
|
DeusEx posted:Serbia is kind of in the middle. It does have the negative reputation from the Milosovic days, and though one would assume that a country with a history like Germany would be less judgmental about war crimes, it annoyingly really isn't. We like to point out how other countries "don't face their history, like we have done", and people really, honestly think that Germany is a shining beacon of human rights now, that is not only allowed, but morally obligated to to "friendly remind" other nations of their present or even past human rights violations, because we have "learned from history" or such drivel. It's interesting you should say this with a school system that's so obviously very racist. The spice of life is irony.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 13:44
|
|
|
hankor posted:To be honest I really haven't encountered it much lately, it was pretty bad a couple of years ago but with growing public awareness and a BVG-campaign it has stopped with the possible exception of alcohol laden subway rides in the middle of the night. Many phones now have standard headphone jacks and not some proprietary poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 13:58
|
|
|
Plankalkuel posted:In Germany you study "Lehramt" which is basically a "Masters light". Teachers study two fields, so they can teach multiple courses, but not as extensively as a normal Masters student, the reason being probably that they don't teach all that to children anyway. The "Lehramt" degree is usually seen as a 2nd class Masters and teachers in general are not that well respected and viewed as lazy. How do you reconcile your opinion with German Gymnasium students being the best worldwide according to PISA? And with German Gymnasium teachers of sciences also being among the best worldwide? What makes you think German teachers are not respected? Because their students don't like them? StrangeRobot posted:Well, more than 50% of all students do attend the Gymnasium already right now so it's not like it's some kind of elite track for the best of the best. Well, out of all people attending grades 5 to 13, a little less than 50% attend Gymnasium, but if you want to talk about the percentage of a class of any year attending Gymnasium, which your entire argument relies upon, then it is, as one would expect, around 33%. Also, like I said above, the most recent PISA indicates that German Gymnasium students are the elite of the world. I think that is a good thing and also indicates that the selection process is mostly okay. Also, forums poster DeusEx, since you are implying you are above being the Ron Paul type (which, really has nothing to do with the Pirate party), how does it feel to mock Germans for pointing out human rights violations, something, I am sure, not even the stupid stupid young male naive whites you speak of (and belong to) would utter? KingaSlipek fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 14:38
|
|
|
KingaSlipek posted:I think that is a good thing and also indicates that the selection process is mostly okay. As my time is limited at the moment I'll take your word for the German Gymnasium students being among the best in the world and I definitely agree that's a good thing, but I believe that there's much more potential. Haupt- and Realschul students could probably achieve a lot more with more adequate support. I recall that the German PISA standings aren't exactly stellar if you consider all German students and not just the elite.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 14:51
|
|
|
Boiled Water posted:It's interesting you should say this with a school system that's so obviously very racist. The spice of life is irony. Exactly, but of course no one sees it that way. Many people really believe that the way things are run in Germany, naturally has to be superior to the rest of the world. I always cringe when politicians talk about other countries, that have to do their "Hausaufgaben" (Homework), as if we would be their teachers. The irony is of course that we disdain US foreign politics for the very same reason. Namely to openly judge about other nations and demand that every thing should be run according to US values. But of course we know that these values are faulty and corrupt, while ours surely are intrinsically good ("Am deutschen Wesen, soll die Welt genesen"). Some examples of Germanys "unique" view on human rights: We always have been thought that our armed forces (Bundeswehr) are one of the most democratic run armies in the world. Well, it took a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, around ten years ago, to allow women to serve in the armed forces in other roles than as field medics. Even our own constitutional court denied them access before. Also the European court of Human Rights ruled very recently that Germany can't just lock away dangerous criminals in jail forever (Sicherheitsverwahrung), but has to make sure that they have to be held outside of the penal system, after they have served their sentence. You can't believe the outcry of conservative politicians about this, because of course child rapists and such don't deserve human rights. Germany remains one of the few countries that doesn't require video or audio documentation of police interrogation. Yes that's right, no one shall ever know how the police obtained that confession. Cases were courts void confessions, because it's obvious that the defendant is innocent and the police just pressured some simpleton to confess a murder, happen all the time. Of course the police union and conservative politicians resist initiatives to require video documentation of interrogations, because that would mean "that society doesn't trust the police" and that of course that can't be allowed to happen. I kid you not. The same argument is made that police on riot duty doesn't have to display some identification numbers, when they beat people up. You know it wouldn't be fair to distrust and control the police because of the occasional bad apples. Additionally we have the fine institution of the "Verfassungsschutz", which is an interior intelligence agency, that not only has the legitimate purpose of counter espionage, but also to keep a watch on people that are suspicious to work against Freedom and Democracy (Freiheitlich Demokratische Grundordnung) in very general terms. Keep in mind those people doesn't have to do anything criminal to be wiretapped and watched over with intelligence methods, it's just sufficient that they are unhappy with the order of things and voice it. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 15:54
|
|
|
KingaSlipek posted:How do you reconcile your opinion with German Gymnasium students being the best worldwide according to PISA? And with German Gymnasium teachers of sciences also being among the best worldwide? What makes you think German teachers are not respected? Because their students don't like them? Most of what you quoted wasn't my opinion, but simple statements about facts or about what in my experience the general outlook is on things. Personally I don't consider teachers lazy in general, no matter where or what they teach. Is that a comparison of the best Finnish students with the best German students? Otherwise it's hardly a surprise, that the Gymnasium is better. I bet the other countries would get better results too, if the could throw all the not so great students out of the statistic. If looked at as a whole, Germany is still not in the top 10, and thats the 2009 study, where Germany had actually improved. For a system that was supposed to be naturally superior. it sure produced lovely results when people actually bothered to put it to the test. Besides a system, that only benefits a few on the top (not even the best in ability as much as in social rank as PISA shows) and discards the rest is amoral in my opinion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 16:10
|
|
|
Plankalkuel posted:Most of what you quoted wasn't my opinion, but simple statements about facts or about what in my experience the general outlook is on things. Personally I don't consider teachers lazy in general, no matter where or what they teach. It is one of the main talking points for all the people that want to bury their heads in the sand. "If only we dismiss the results of all the people not going to Gymnasium we are at the top of the world". It's true that the Gymnasium leads to good results (students don't test better than the top students elsewhere though), but the lower schools lead to much worse results. So we are buying good results for roughly 25% of the students at the expense of the 75% who are not allowed to take part. Now if the proponents of our seperated school system would have a plan on how to actually fix this for those 75%, but nothing has been happening for the last 20 years but frantic defenses of their precious seperated Gymnasium.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 16:33
|
|
|
dreamin' posted:So basically we should sort out those non-native speaker, non-middle class students as early as possible to ensure results on average are better, am I right? None of that has anything to do with my statement so I'm not sure why you're telling me all that. The fact that hauptschule sucks does not mean that tracking itself is a bad idea. By the way, I know quite a few people with Masters degrees and PhDs who originally went to realschule, it's far from impossible to get to university even if you didn't attend gymnasium. dreamin' posted:Many people really believe that the way things are run in Germany, naturally has to be superior to the rest of the world. People liking the way things are in their country? How dare they, I'm sure this disgusting trait is unique to those nasty Germans. All this Germany-bashing is very very German.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 17:08
|
|
|
I went to Realschule even though I was strongly advised to go to a Gymnasium. All my friends went to the Realschule and my parents didn't mind me joining them. I changed after 10th grade and it wasn't really a problem. The only thing that I'm missing is a Latinum, but who really cares about that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 17:35
|
|
|
Plankalkuel posted:Most of what you quoted wasn't my opinion, but simple statements about facts or about what in my experience the general outlook is on things. Personally I don't consider teachers lazy in general, no matter where or what they teach. You were talking about Finnish teachers, those that require a "true" master's degree and such. The point of the comparison between German Gymnasium students and Finnish students in general is, not only are these students the best, they also probably have the best education available to them (in some fields). We do have better teachers than Finland when adjusting for university education. My point of contention is "No wonder, the Finnish system gets better results". And what do you mean by "naturally superior"? And what is "lovely" about having the best general school variant in the world? And we still rank pretty well, all things considered (and not just Scandinavia and Korea).And, again, if the selection process in grade 4 were faulty, then why is the Gymnasium so successful? Explain this to me, angry German! dreamin' posted:It is one of the main talking points for all the people that want to bury their heads in the sand. "If only we dismiss the results of all the people not going to Gymnasium we are at the top of the world". It's true that the Gymnasium leads to good results (students don't test better than the top students elsewhere though), but the lower schools lead to much worse results. So we are buying good results for roughly 25% of the students at the expense of the 75% who are not allowed to take part. Now if the proponents of our seperated school system would have a plan on how to actually fix this for those 75%, but nothing has been happening for the last 20 years but frantic defenses of their precious seperated Gymnasium. You people are arguing that when we select in fourth grade, we do not really consider skills but instead social background. The latter may be true, but the PISA shows that the selection per skill is working well. Since PISA mostly checks for abilities learned before fifth grade, there is no need in changing the system after the fourth grade but while still in elementary school or kindergarten. Besides, more and more people are attending Gymnasium (in percentages), and your percentage figure is, of course, wrong. A third of fourth graders get to go to the Gymnasium, and since the Gymnasium features 8-9 years of education, a little less than half of all German students at any time are Gymnasium students. But who cares about facts, right? KingaSlipek fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 17:40
|
|
|
KingaSlipek posted:You were talking about Finnish teachers, those that require a "true" master's degree and such. The point of the comparison between German Gymnasium students and Finnish students in general is, not only are these students the best, they also probably have the best education available to them (in some fields). We do have better teachers than Finland when adjusting for university education. My point of contention is "No wonder, the Finnish system gets better results". You didn't answer my question. Is that a comparison between the best Finnish and the best German students, or between all Finnish students and the best German students. In the later case that wouldn't really surprise me. How about some sources for that? I don't think, that the Finnish system has a better overall score then Germany, because their teachers have "real" Masters. A Finnish goon explained it that way, that because teachers have to earn a regular degree and in addition study teaching, it's actually harder to become a teacher in, say, maths then earning simply a master. However the pay is really good and teaching is a well recognized profession. Thereby you end up with people who are qualified and motivated to teach. Thats what I meant. "naturally superior" was an ironic stab, aimed at the fact, that our school system is touted as the best thing ever by virtue of it's design, when in reality it doesn't even make the top ten. Are you saying, the selection process is working well then? Why is there still such a strong correlation between education of the parents and education of the children? Is stupidity suddenly inheritable?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 18:11
|
|
|
Plankalkuel posted:Are you saying, the selection process is working well then? Why is there still such a strong correlation between education of the parents and education of the children? Is stupidity suddenly inheritable? Actually, it is. As are attitudes about education (figuratively speaking).
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 18:20
|
|
|
StrangeRobot posted:The immigrant experience will vary depending on what class the immigrants belonged to in their country of origin. This might explain why my Uncle was able to get his Abitur and become a Professor in his own right. His children followed suit (though they didn't become teachers themselves).
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 18:40
|
|
|
Previously on GBS posted:Actually, it is. Yeah, but only figuratively speaking not in an actual significant genetical way. What's so difficult for you to undestand that right now social class directly translates into better learning ability? That this is fundamentally unjust and could be helped with with intelligent school reforms? Yes, your precious pure german middle and upper class children do better at school but not because of any inherent Übermensch capabilities but because they get much more support from their parents/families and are allowed to use the better schools and better educated teachers. The solution can't be continued classist segregation but only actual reform adressing exactly the problem of lower class children doing worse. It's the state's duty to educate the populace and society can only benefit from a better educated population. Else we will slide back into feudalism (even faster). You can't expect the poors and the immigrants to bootstrap themselves into model Bildungsbürgers. But you're not one of those people whose solution to all of society's problems is to basically ship them immigrants back to where they came from and put those uppity poors back into the coal mines where they belong, are you? DerDestroyer posted:This might explain why my Uncle was able to get his Abitur and become a Professor in his own right. His children followed suit (though they didn't become teachers themselves). The system is intentionally classist first and racist only by correlation of immigrants often being from lower classes. In this discussion it's relly difficult to keep the racist and the classist separate from each other. In theory xenophobes and racists can hide behind the classist "But people have differtent talents!" all day long and you wouldn't be able to call them out.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:06
|
|
|
DeusEx posted:Some examples of Germanys "unique" view on human rights: Holy poo poo. I had no idea you had this kind of insanity going on. I was going to make a post about how at least you guys aren't like the Japanese who try to trivialize their actions in WW2 but it seems you're more like them than I thought.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:11
|
|
|
StrangeRobot posted:Yeah, but only figuratively speaking not in an actual significant genetical way. No, that's not true, there's actually a pretty significant correlation, although of course no one has exact and definitive numbers (how could they given that there isn't even a reliable way to quantify intelligence in the first place). I don't find this very interesting though, I believe social factors play a much bigger role, and not because of any intentional discrimination, which certainly also exists. StrangeRobot posted:What's so difficult for you to undestand that right now social class directly translates into better learning ability? That this is fundamentally unjust and could be helped with with intelligent school reforms? I never said that this was not the case. However, there is no indication that getting rid to tracking in the way to go and in fact I don't believe that it is. StrangeRobot posted:But you're not one of those people whose solution to all of society's problems is to basically ship them immigrants back to where they came from and put those uppity poors back into the coal mines where they belong, are you? Of course I am, how could anyone disagree with you for any other reason than that they're just plain evil?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:29
|
|
|
DeusEx posted:Also the European court of Human Rights ruled very recently that Germany can't just lock away dangerous criminals in jail forever (Sicherheitsverwahrung), but has to make sure that they have to be held outside of the penal system, after they have served their sentence. You can't believe the outcry of conservative politicians about this, because of course child rapists and such don't deserve human rights. As far as I understood all the hooplah around that ruling was that the legal grounds for "Sicherheitsverwahrung" eventually came to be in conflict with european "law" (as far as you can call it that). It's not like germany had been doing something legally inhumane for ages, it was more along the lines of "See, now that we all have agreed on the constraints of our beautiful community, that thing you've been doing is no longer okay." But the concept of Sicherheitsverwahrung is enough material for a seperate massive discussion and I don't really want to open that quote:Additionally we have the fine institution of the "Verfassungsschutz", which is an interior intelligence agency, that not only has the legitimate purpose of counter espionage, but also to keep a watch on people that are suspicious to work against Freedom and Democracy (Freiheitlich Demokratische Grundordnung) in very general terms. Keep in mind those people doesn't have to do anything criminal to be wiretapped and watched over with intelligence methods, it's just sufficient that they are unhappy with the order of things and voice it. That's not true, the BfV needs probable cause just like any other executive institution or agency. What has been criticized for a while though, is the involvement/legality of covert informants in entities that are under active surveillance or investigation. And then of course there's the post-9/11 interpretation of probable cause when it comes to potential islamic extremists, which, I'm pretty sure at this point, is currently defined as something in the neighborhood of "Negro be wearin' a beard, poo poo's suspicious."
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:34
|
|
|
Deceitful Penguin posted:Holy poo poo. I had no idea you had this kind of insanity going on. I was going to make a post about how at least you guys aren't like the Japanese who try to trivialize their actions in WW2 but it seems you're more like them than I thought. In the Netherlands we also don't have video or audio recordings of police interrogations, and on top of that you don't even have the right of a lawyer being present, as far as I know. It's backwards as hell but it's also tradition and very convenient for the police, so it's very hard to change. It's no surprise that in many high profile murder cases of the last decades, the police has ended up getting tunnelvision and hounding the wrong suspect for years. This must be some kind of weird northern-continental Europe thing or something. I wonder how Belgium and Denmark do these things. I don't really see what any of the examples DeusEx gave have to do with WW2 though. I find that the younger generations of Germans are really good about WW2, and the older the German the higher the chance gets of them still holding some pretty reprehensible views. I don't think that's unique to Germany though. Although there's a shocking amount of hate for Turks sometimes. The most shocking to me was when we needed an emergency dentist and went to a hospital that had some, and there was a lot of people waiting and all the dentists were very busy, except for one Turkish woman. People would rather suffer dental pain than be treated by her I guess. There was a good chance she was going to lose that job, and it was a pretty drat sad situation. We've also seen some casual racism in stores from middle aged or old Germans, and our elderly neigbhour with his bloodgroup tattood on his arm is about as racist as you'd expect, but the younger generations are again much better. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:36
|
|
|
To be fair he's blowing it out of proportions. Only allowing women in the Bundeswehr as medics and doctors was an inequality but not really a big issue, only about 10 percent of the armed forces are women right now (about half of them as medics, so you are looking at about 10.000 out of 40 million that have joined in ten years). The problem with the Sicherheitsverwahrung was not that it was against human rights in general. The problem was that they tried to apply it to people that were proven to be a continuing danger to society but had already been sentenced so they couldn't keep them locked up even though it's very likely that they will kill/rape/whatever again. Right now the criminals that couldn't be kept in custody are followed by police pretty much all day long at great costs. Identification numbers during demonstrations and video taped interrogations would be nice I guess. The Verfassungsschutz is not the Stasi or the Gestapo, they investigate people that might be a danger to society due to ideological conflicts with the constitution. I think there is not a single country in the world that doesn't have a similar institution. DeusEx appears to me like a rather stereotypical left-wing brat (I'm sure he'd prefer the term Antideuscher) that enjoys all the freedom this country offers him while getting his panties in a bunch whenever he realizes that he's not living in an anarchist utopia. vvvv I completely agree hankor fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 19:48
|
|
|
hankor posted:DeusEx appears to me like a rather stereotypical left-wing brat (I'm sure he'd prefer the term Antideuscher) that enjoys all the freedom this country offers him while getting his panties in a bunch whenever he realizes that he's not living in an anarchist utopia. If you remove systems like the Verfassungsschutz or the mandatory 5% rule to sit in the Bundestag you will just be repeating the mistakes of the Weimar republic. I know this sounds ironic, even counter intuitive but some authoritarian measures are necessary so that the constitution and rights of a nation can be appropriately protected. I really do believe that these measures are in place for good purposes rather than malicious purposes. I'm pretty sure serious pure white Neo-Nazi movements bent on undermining the nation's constitution and instituting a one party state are just as likely to be monitored by the police. Sometimes it is absolutely necessary to fight fire with fire. Some people need to do the dirty work so that the rest of the country can live in peace.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 20:04
|
|
|
hankor posted:
...so basically pretty much like the Stasi or Gestapo, but with a much more liberal ideology and correspondingly methods+scope?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 20:15
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:...so basically pretty much like the Stasi or Gestapo, but with a much more liberal ideology and correspondingly methods+scope? It's not like Adolph Hitler Jr. is going to mysteriously disappear at night and get driven away in a black van never to return again. This does however prevent YOU from being driven away in a black van at night never to return again because the people who are monitoring those guys are making sure that scenario never happens in the first place. They are bending the rules slightly (with probable cause) specifically so that the rules don't get changed by force and ruin the life you take for granted. In spite of the classism and hidden racism in Germany I would rather live in Germany than in North America any day of my life and I say that as someone who is most likely to encounter discrimination due to the misfortune of having a Serbian birth certificate. The German government and constitution has a very serious commitment to prevent the repetition of history and if there's one government I can trust not to become authoritarian again it's the German one. I can't say the same for the United States and even the Canadian governments. There will always be fringe people in society, especially in European society who will quite happily use democracy to destroy democracy. It happened in the Weimar era and it can happen again in the modern era. The German government set up the current system to prevent that as best as possible. So yes, I would rather see antidemocratic pro-authoritarian crazies monitored by police because that prevents far more serious violations of human rights from taking place. DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Oct 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 20:27
|
|
|
hankor posted:To be fair he's blowing it out of proportions. Just because there hasn't been a huge rush of women joining the armed forces (beyond field medics) doesn't mean it wasn't a big issue. There's no reason the demographics of the military population shouldn't reflect the demographics of the general population, so it would seem the fact that it does not would reflect a big and ongoing issue.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 20:46
|
|
|
cgeq posted:Just because there hasn't been a huge rush of women joining the armed forces (beyond field medics) doesn't mean it wasn't a big issue. There's no reason the demographics of the military population shouldn't reflect the demographics of the general population, so it would seem the fact that it does not would reflect a big and ongoing issue. Ya well, the Bundeswehr has always been a little slow to react to societal changes. Young men were drafted into military service until July of this very year after all. It's a large, conservative organ that likes to resist change as long as it can. I mean, it was only in 2004 that homosexuals were allowed to openly serve for crying out loud. We're pretty much at the rear end-end of Europe here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 21:00
|
|
|
elwood posted:I went to Realschule even though I was strongly advised to go to a Gymnasium. All my friends went to the Realschule and my parents didn't mind me joining them. I changed after 10th grade and it wasn't really a problem. The only thing that I'm missing is a Latinum, but who really cares about that. Oh, I thought fascist society shunned you after it determined your future social class in 4th grade. Guess those meddling LF posters tricked me again. Getting an Abitur isn't a major hurdle unless you're extremely lethargic or simply not very smart. The Abitur is officially the certificate that says you're educated enough to attend university. Since university education is virtually free over here, I think it's in society's best interest not to let super lethargic or dumb people participate. The real problem with Germany's education system is the idiotic refusal to make "Ganztagsschulen" the standard. That's far more harmful to children of poorer or single parents than the 3-tiered System.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 05:24 |
|
|
SNAKES N CAKES posted:I'd say "extremely intellectually lazy" is a more accurate term. The typical M.Ed. student seems to either want the job for the steady paycheck or because they really, really like children, but not because of any passion for the subject. How many Lehramt diplom students did you meet? Maybe you just happened to meet some really poo poo people who happened to study Lehramt, but that's not a quality that is limited to just one subject.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2011 21:54
|
|