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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I just started a cowboy run. Followed my quick start up to Vegas, collected the 3 globes for 6k, bought the INT implant to max my int (9int/9lck start I like skill points and criticals deal with it) then used the last 2k to buy the GRA 5.56 Pistol. I proceeded to make it my signature weapon and I'm planning on going through the game as neutral rear end in a top hat (yes man ending while barely tolerating NCR and murdering anything Legion) using only that gun. If you're looking for armor that has good DT and looks cowboy-y, then you should try the Desert Ranger armor from Honest Hearts--it's basically the NCR Elite Ranger armor without the faction tag.
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Oct 5, 2011 03:40
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I never really thought of the BoS as a particularly assholish or evil faction (prior to New Vegas, at least), and it always kinda puzzled me that people painted them as such from the beginning. Sure, sending the Vault Dweller to the Glow was a bit of a dick move, but it never seemed to me like the guy outside the BoS bunker actually expected you to go through with it, let alone come back with something useful. And when the Vault Dweller succeeds, the BoS recognizes your success and lets you in. Regarding the BoS's philosophy about hording technology, which is the other thing that leads to lots of BoS-hate around here--the BoS hordes tech because they feel that the "unwashed masses" of the wasteland can't be trusted to wield something so dangerous. Sure, that seems like something an elitist prick would say. And what gives them the right to make such a decision? See, the funny thing is, the BoS is kinda...well, correct. Look at the Fiends, for instance--they're kinda like the BoS's nightmare scenario: a somewhat-organized gang of murderous drug addicts armed to the teeth with lasers. Sure, they're not much of a threat to the Courier (but nothing in the Mojave really is, seeing as the Courier is the consummate badass and all), but they're presented as a very dangerous and destabilizing presence in the region. And, even though the Legion has some weird philosophical qualms about using lasers, can you imagine if the Legion decided to use energy weapons instead of machetes crudely fashioned out of lawnmower blades? They'd be unstoppable. I guess the most effective argument pointing to the BoS being douchebags would be something like "if they have the means to help wastelanders in need, then they have the responsibility to help them." I guess that's true, but that's what the East Coast Brotherhood ended up doing in Fallout 3, and look how boring they were 
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Jan 30, 2012 20:26
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Ddraig posted:They're sneering imperialists who believe that the unwashed tribal masses (i.e. everyone not themselves) deserves nothing less than to bang two rocks together to survive because they clearly have no use and appreciation for the technology that will ultimately save them because some people decided to drop bombs on each other a long time ago. I think these are all valid points, except for the "sneering imperialist" part--in the original games, all they really did was hang out in their bunkers and trade with caravans when they came around. I don't really recall them sending out knights to conquer parts of the wasteland and impose their will on the natives. Also, I don't understand why people are so upset about not being "allowed to become one of the Brotherhood." They're clearly willing to give people access to their tech under the right circumstances--in Fallout 2 they give the Chosen One unfettered access to a bunch of bunkers with cool poo poo in them as well as a machine which can make people stronger, faster, and smarter, yet people scoff at them and say "well, you won't give me a cool-sounding rank like 'Knight' or 'Paladin,' so gently caress you!" Crigit posted:What exactly do you think the Brotherhood is doing to benefit anybody? All they do is recover pre-war tech, either by securing it before anyone finds it, or killing the people who found it and taking it. They don't consider whether the person is using the tech responsibly or not. Subsistence farmer who uses a scavenged laser rifle to ward off bandits and protect his family? Brotherhood demands he give the rifle to them without compensation or they kill him. They never go out into the wastes and get their vigilante on, they never try to protect anybody from any thing for any reason, indeed their holy text explicitly forbids that kind of behavior. It's important to remember that the Brotherhood in New Vegas can't really be compared to the Brotherhood from any of the other games. That's why I never understood people who claimed that New Vegas brought the Brotherhood back to their roots or whatever. The New Vegas Brotherhood may be a bunch of assholes who steal tech from people, but you have to remember that by the time New Vegas rolled around, the Brotherhood had just recently lost a disastrous war against the NCR--a war which the NCR started, by the way--and I'd have to imagine that this would cause a huge shift in the way the Brotherhood conducted business, hence the explosive collar when you first meet them. Hell, they can hardly be blamed even for that, since apparently most of the people in this thread feel like they can't blow up the BoS bunker fast enough Granted, it's been a while since I've played the originals, but I don't remember any instances of the BoS killing innocent people and stealing their tech in those games. Also, in regards to the BoS helping people, didn't Fallout 1's epilogue say that the BoS was instrumental in helping the wastelanders defeat the Master's army? Again, I can't remember since I haven't played it in a long time. They're certainly instrumental in helping the Vault Dweller defeat the Master--allowing the Vault Dweller to come and go as he/she pleases, giving the Vault Dweller a whole bunch of cool poo poo, sending a squad of Knights to help the Vault Dweller attack the Military Base, and doing the research necessary to prove that the Master's plan would be a spectacular failure. Alas, this all seems to be ignored in favor of "  but but but they wouldn't call me Paladin Vault Dweller/Chosen One! "\/\/\/\/\/ Ironically, it's the NCR that's guilty of the crimes that the Brotherhood is accused of! Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 05:28
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Isn't it pretty much a given that someone will make Fallout: New York as long as the series remains profitable? It's more or less the most iconic American setting in existence, and given Fallout's Americana thing I have to imagine that it will happen at some point (this is also why I don't think Fallout: Canada will ever happen)
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Feb 9, 2012 09:28
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Honestly I found a fully-modded laser rifle to be a perfectly serviceable sniper rifle, and I used it throughout the entire game. Energy weapons rule.
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Feb 15, 2012 21:31
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The NCR prior to F: NV is much more likeable than what they ended up becoming in New Vegas. In New Vegas, they're mostly an expansionist empire that doesn't have the people of the Mojave's best interests in mind, and the game points out that the NCR kinda de-evolved into what it is now, which is a mirror of the pre-war US (at least in regards to foreign policy). I seem to remember that the NCR of Fallout 2 (and the end of Fallout 1) was, as a whole, not so much concerned about gaining power, but more concerned with protecting their citizens from the horrors of a post-apocalyptic world (poverty/starvation, radiation, disease, horrifying mutants/monsters, bloodthirsty and cannibalistic (and possibly rapey) raiders, etc.). Basically, the NCR was a noble organization whose founding ideals were pushed to the wayside after it was hijacked by the interests of big business and the military-industrial complex. I guess that's why I always have a soft spot for the NCR--maybe they just need a leader who can stand up to the wealthy landowners and warhawks and return the NCR to it's original mission. Sure, that's probably extremely naive, but I think it's a better option than the Legion or House. I don't understand why anybody would think of House as the best option--he never actually does anything for the good of the Mojave. Sure, his missile defense system shot down most of the nukes that were shot at Vegas, but then he just sits there in his cryogenic chamber for a few hundred years while the Mojave turns into a hellhole. It's the NCR that does most of the work defeating the Legion, only for House to swing in at the final ceremony and snatch the trophy. And his plans for the future seem kinda vague--I don't know how sending a man into space or whatever he wants to do will help the destitute, starving people of the Mojave. It's already been mentioned, but House exterminating the Kings, AKA one of the most benign organizations in the game, simply for leaving NCR refugees alone, doesn't make me trust anything he has to say.
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May 23, 2012 22:33
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Let me just say that I'm glad this thread is still active because people can quickly correct me or give me more details/remind me of stuff I've forgotten, since I last played the game many months ago. In the end, while the NCR is far from perfect, I still feel that the Wasteland has a better chance with a flawed democracy rather than with an autocrat, benevolent (supposedly House) or not (Caesar). I had forgotten about Cass's good ending, what with Crimson Caravan and the Van Graffs getting smacked down for doing illegal poo poo. It proves that the NCR isn't completely broken. And as far as the "Cult of Personality" thing goes--if people thought Tandi, a powerful-but-still-elected executive, dying after ruling for fifty years was bad, imagine what might happen if a few bacteria managed to slip into House's sterilized chamber. Sure, House may be "immortal," but he's still extremely fragile. I dunno, maybe if I stop thinking of House as Howard Hughes and start thinking of him as Mr. Burns's impression of Howard Hughes from the casino episode of the Simpsons (and the Courier as Smithers)...maybe I'd be more fond of him. Eiba posted:And House is a bit more pragmatic and a bit less ideological than you seem to think. He doesn't care who's rich or poor. He cares who's useful and who's superfluous. If you are useful, House will make you rich. If you are useless, well, that's a different story. But who gets to decide who's "useful" and who's "superfluous"? Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 22:48 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 22:41
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Stroth posted:The kind who wipes out armed insurgencies that are literally sitting on his doorstep? The Kings are like the most benign faction in the game, behind the Followers.
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May 25, 2012 00:42
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The Sunset Star Cap guy we're talking about is the same guy who runs up to you outside of Nipton and says "that crazy bitch just tried to kill me!" right? Because on my current playthrough I finally witnessed said crazy bitch trying to kill that guy over in dry lake racetrack. In fact, I ran over there and helped her kill the guy, then talked to her afterwards. Also, I think this playthrough was the first time I saw the residential neighborhood in Primm. I'm still discovering new poo poo about this game nearly two years and hundreds of gameplay hours later.
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Jul 2, 2012 16:50
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OldMemes posted:
Remove "NCR" from that list and you might have a true statement 
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Jul 27, 2012 05:48
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gyrobot posted:That said, conditions in the NCR isn't much better off since working for Crimson Caravan is effectively caps slavery. I fear the moment someone fails to pay his debt and suddenly some CC hired guns comes for your head. I'm pretty sure that caps "slavery" when working for one company in a foreign land is much worse than actual slavery everywhere. The fact of the matter is that the Mojave is infinitely better off with the NCR in charge. Pretty much every town/faction ending with the NCR in charge is some variation of: -They remained independent of the NCR and were happy -They thrived under the NCR -They complained about NCR taxes, but they were ultimately better off Hell, the best NCR ending makes the eternally-hated Brotherhood of Steel into productive members of society, for gently caress's sake! In the end, the only people who get totally screwed over by the NCR (and this is only one possible ending--you can get them to leave the Mojave and become a warlord empire) are the Khans. And you know what? gently caress the Khans. They're raiders. They've been murderous raiders since Fallout 1. They go out of their way to help the Fiends, who might be the most indefensible faction in the game. Bitter Springs was a tragedy, but everyone you talk to in the NCR about it shows complete remorse for the tragedy, and Bitter Root even says that the Khans had it coming. The best argument for the NCR is that Boone, who is objectively the Best Companion, supports the NCR. Don't Tread on the Bear, motherfuckers
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Jul 28, 2012 07:49
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Thompsons posted:Not to mention Colonel Moore, who actually gets pissed off at you for reaching any kind of solution with the Brotherhood that isn't "kill everyone." They really don't like playing nice with people they've tussled with before, even if it's in their best long-term interests. They might complain, but in the end, they play ball.
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Jul 28, 2012 08:01
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Wolfsheim posted:
"Imperialist" seems to be the "trump card" that everyone uses to tear down the NCR, but who really gives a flying gently caress about "imperialism" in this world? When my choices are fascist slavers, anarchy, a two-hundred-year-old reclusive lunatic, and "imperialists," then I might at the very least hear the imperialists out. Wolfsheim posted:How Vegas provides 'no service' is beyond me, considering they offer the opportunity to be in a pre-war paradise, with things like clean water and actual beds and prepared meals. For the people of the wastes (and the poor farmers and such of the NCR) who likely grew up sleeping on dirty mattresses, drinking irradiated water and preparing radroach burgers, it's utterly utopian. Are you serious? House runs a loving casino--it's purpose is to provide the momentary thrill of gambling in order to drain you of your life savings so he can cryptically elude to building a spaceship that you won't be around to see. The moral of the story: gently caress House with one thousand razor-dicks.
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Jul 28, 2012 08:22
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Davos posted:Boone is a potato, and I will never relent on that issue. I fully understand people favoring pretty much any of the factions, but I have never, ever, understood the love for Boone. He's just so boring Wrong. Boone is the best companion combat-wise, his backstory is tragic, he has some of the best endings (especially if you go pro-Legion), and he has my favorite three-line conversation in the entire game.
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Jul 28, 2012 08:37
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Wolfsheim posted:Who says you won't be around to see it? After passing a speech check he suggests he'll offer the same immortality deal to my Courier. And since he never lies to you at any point in the course of the game, why wouldn't that be the truth? I was thinking more about what's best for the common people of the Mojave, but if you're thinking about what's best for the Courier, then yes, supporting House might be the best thing. Personally, I wouldn't really want "immortality" if that means being trapped in a tube forever like House, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. At least that's what I assumed House meant by "immortality." Regarding the Kings--it's important to make the distinction that the Kings don't "make peace" with the NCR--rather, they make an executive decision to not go out of their way to make life a living hell for NCR citizens who have been drained of their life savings and kicked to the curb with no way to get home by House's casinos. Even something as minor and innocuous as that is deemed an extermination-worthy offense by House.
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Jul 28, 2012 18:28
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
This is literally the best possible thing that can happen in the Fallout universe. EDIT: Boone becomes NCR Secretary of Defense.
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Jul 29, 2012 05:05
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ED-E is in charge of the Secret Service, Yes Man is the NCR's version of Karl Rove, etc. EDIT: The NCR President Courier's cabinet would just be the Civilization 2 Council: War Advisor (Boone) Economic Advisor (House, if you have mercy and let him live) Foreign Advisor (Veronica) Science Advisor (Arcade) Happiness Advisor (The King) Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jul 29, 2012 |
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Jul 29, 2012 05:18
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Coolodile posted:Just make sure that you go with Yes Man on the final mission and blow up the dam, making the entire war pointless. You know, for a laugh. Wait, is this actually an option for the Yes Man ending? (I'm still working on my first Yes Man playthrough)
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Dec 9, 2012 03:31
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Sorry everyone, I know I missed the faction discussion of the thread cycle. Still, I wanted to point out to all the House acolytes that, while the whole "NCR shouldn't trample on sovereign nations" thing makes sense, that shouldn't apply to House, since a huge part post-Hoover Dam II economy is based on stealing all the NCR's money via casinos. In other words, this supposedly-peaceful neighbor is dedicated to trying to bankrupt the NCR. gently caress House. And the whole "Hey, House owned Vegas before the war (*cough* 200 years ago *cough*), so he can do whatever he wants with the Mojave" is literally the same exact justification the Enclave had for doing everything they did.
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Jan 18, 2013 05:07
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Line Feed posted:In all fairness, where else is he going to get money from? He's got to pay his workers something unless he wants to rule the Mojave Legion style. I guess there's nothing else he can really do. Seriously--there's really not much practical use for the Mojave in this universe besides the Hoover Dam and Helios One. It kinda makes the whole conflict seem kinda overblown, but I guess that's the point--people will fight over anything even remotely shiny.
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Jan 18, 2013 05:27
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Byzantine posted:The Enclave was literally trying to slaughter everything in the entire world. Even the Legion under Lanius isn't that horrible. ...and? What's your point? We really know nothing about House's actual motives--he's extremely vague about all his plans, and I have a hard time thinking he's a humanitarian when he speaks with such contempt and disdain for everyone and everything. Hell, someone in the thread earlier listed "House is nice to you as long as you don't question him in any way" as a point in his favor, and I thought it was funny that goons of all people weren't at all suspicious of a dictator who mercilessly guns down poor people whose first command is "don't question anything I say, do, or command." SlothfulCobra posted:House was providing entertainment to NCR citizens along with sapping their money to defend himself against the NCR's inevitable betrayal. If you can't take the gambling losses, get the gently caress outta Vegas. I don't really care that House makes his money by bankrupting NCR civilians, I was just using that to refute the idea some posters floated that the existence of a House-led state in the Mojave is somehow good for the NCR, which it clearly isn't. And there's no evidence that the NCR will crush every sovereign people under their jackboots--the NCR ending seems to suggest that they're happy letting the Boomers live in peace, and they even established friendly trading relations with them. Regarding the second point--House was in stasis for centuries before he rolled out his securitrons, making all three factions relative newcomers to the area. All three factions are trying to conquer the Mojave through military force, and no one can really claim the moral high ground on that front. Monicro posted:Really, I find there's a whole lot of finger-crossing involved with all 4 of the endings. There's nothing that really says that House will or won't help humanity as a whole (for all we know, he makes Freeside and the area surrounding Vegas safe and lets the rest of the world figure it out themselves), just as there's nothing that says that the NCR won't continue to wrecklessly expand and wage war until they collapse under their own weight. This is the only "correct" answer to this debate--there's no guarantee that any of these prospective societies will succeed or fail, but this game is so awesome that it's fun to argue this point over and over again.
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Jan 19, 2013 02:43
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Byzantine posted:NCR attacks the Boomers unless the Courier intervenes (by restoring the bomber). They fail, because the Boomers aren't defenseless doctors like the Followers, but the NCR still tries to conquer them for the terrible crime of being in the way. This is more or less the same approach that all the major factions take--"You're on my side, or you're in the way." If you get all the factions to ally with whichever horse you're backing, they get rewarded in the end. If not, then they get hosed. House does this to the Kings. Hell, the Legion does it to the people who actually help them!
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Jan 21, 2013 20:00
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Byzantine posted:I slightly disagree, though I freely admit I'm biased towards House. The Kings are an unfriendly gang living literally on House's doorstep. That's a bit different from the NCR attacking a bunch of unarmed doctors. The NCR doesn't "attack" the doctors. Kicking them out of the Fort is a dick move, but it's hardly a war crime. And even then, getting them to work with the NCR ends up being the best possible ending for the only true morally good faction in the game--House just ignores them and basically lets Freeside continue to decay. And it's already been said, but I don't have any sympathy for the Khans. They're raiders, and they have been since the first game. Furthermore, they're raiders who helped Benny shoot the Courier in the head. Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jan 22, 2013 |
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Jan 22, 2013 00:42
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Democrazy posted:Pro-Legion I think the best defense of the Legion would involve pointing out that, while a slaveholding-rapist-fascist army is a definitively Bad Thing to us, whom are by and large liberal people with humanitarian sensibilities, it might make alot more sense if you grew up in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland. In a world where the majority of deaths are caused by monsters, wild animals, and raiders, having a society that first and foremost protects you from these things doesn't seem so bad. \/\/\/\/ I agree wholeheartedly. It's still fun to think about and discuss, though--is there anywhere I can read a synopsis of Caesar's plans for governing after winning the war? It's been a while since I did a Legion run and I don't remember. Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jan 22, 2013 |
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Jan 22, 2013 04:27
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My favorite speech check in any game is the REPCONN HQ password guess (Luck at 7 or higher, Intelligence at 2 or lower). "Uhhh...ice cream?"
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Jan 23, 2013 00:09
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CharlestheHammer posted:You have to find charismatic dude that also shares your views, while fighting off the incumbent heir. That is no easy feat. Plus you can live with corruption and political corruption to a degree. I'm not too familiar on actual Roman history, but wasn't succession in the Roman Empire also really problematic?
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Feb 1, 2013 03:20
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Wolfsheim posted:This is because House is not only way too prideful to cower before some pissant courier, but he knows that whatever plans you're making after his death are going to make things worse for the Mojave, and almost certainly yourself But the Courier's not just "some pissant courier," he's basically a loving demi-god as far as the Mojave is concerned. Seriously, the Courier's actions over the course of a few in-game months have an infinitely larger affect on the state of the Mojave than House's 200+ years of scheming or whatever. None of House's plans are going to get realized without the Courier. And siding with the NCR will make things better for the Mojave 
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May 11, 2013 18:04
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Wolfsheim posted:That's the thing, though: House recognizes this, and immediately recruits the courier into his plan. He basically hands you the Lucky 38 suite and encourages the courier to have at it, he never lies to or messes with the courier, you have to betray him. And really, any courier who doesn't realize what a sweet deal House is offering and chooses to kill him is a bit of a pissant Maybe the Courier wants what's best for the Mojave rather than tons of material possessions Regarding House's "plans"--I wouldn't trust a drat thing he says seeing as he always has some sort of ulterior motive to everything he does. For example, he makes like he's totally on the NCR's side through this whole Hoover Dam ordeal and that he's not just going to stab them in the back and exploit the everloving gently caress out of them after the NCR finishes doing all his dirty work, so it's kinda hard for me to agree with the "House is doing the NCR a favor" crowd, and I certainly don't give a poo poo about the "but the NCR wants to kill the poor creepy billionaire! " sentiment.
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May 13, 2013 02:05
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Utgardaloki posted:So, House is a scumbag because he's working against the NCR, but the NCR working against House is fair game because he's creepy and rich? House is a scumbag for hundreds of reasons that have been discussed in this thread ad nauseam. And those reasons, plus the reasons why the NCR winning is a net positive, is why the NCR working against House is fair game.
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May 13, 2013 04:37
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Wolfsheim posted:I guess I missed these hundreds of reasons Obviously. Wolfsheim posted:It's actually kind of interesting, if you just follow the NCR's orders for most of the game the ending is pretty dark; Kings at war or dead, Followers forced out, Khans literally put on a reservation. You have to essentially ignore everything Moore says to actually receive a good NCR ending, with House you just follow his orders and most of it works out. If you consider "Robo-dictatorship run by a completely unaccountable deranged hermit who has cut himself off from humanity for several hundred years rather than a flawed-but-well-meaning democracy whose problems you can fix" to be "working out," then I guess you're right or whatever. I also think it's funny that House apologists keep mentioning Moore as the single most important reason why the NCR is bad, when in the end all she amounts to is a powerless mid-level bureaucrat who throws temper tantrums while more capable people get things done (also gently caress the Khans who are nothing more than Raider Scum).
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May 13, 2013 06:31
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Ravenfood posted:Actually, I think the biggest problem with the NCR is that you can't fix most of the problems. Oh, sure, you can fix some of the decisions re: the Mojave, but you as one person cannot significantly alter the character of the NCR, especially its status as a plutocratic expansionist democracy. You might be able to alter some of the expansionism, but in part that's because it just took over Vegas (assuming you back it) and accomplished its goal, rather than any change. The problem is that people like Moore aren't the exception, Hanlon and Curtis are. I dunno about that, it seems for every Oliver or Moore there's a Hanlon or Hsu to counter-balance them. And it's been mentioned before but the NCR's expansionism isn't necessarily a bad thing (at least it doesn't have to be). If you do it right, almost all of the NCR's endings result in life getting significantly better for the citizens of the Mojave, and this is without an army of killbots watching their every move. The NCR's relative flexibility over House is the real reason that they're the better choice. The Brotherhood of Steel is a good example of this--while both factions might just say "they're in our way, kill them," only the NCR allows you to go through diplomatic channels to turn them into *gasp* productive members of society! Moore might impotently rage at you for not being a murderous rear end in a top hat, but why let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch?
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May 13, 2013 23:51
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OldMemes posted:House does intend to fight crime in Freeside, he's just too underpowered to do it before the Dam is taken. I actually don't remember him saying that, do you happen to remember which conversation he says it in? It's been a while since I did my last House playthrough (why do I seem to remember asking this same question at least four times in this thread) At the same time, it doesn't seem like House shows much interest in Freeside after the dam--he either rolls in to kill the Kings or ignores them, and the Followers ending slide points out that Freeside is worse than ever after Hoover Dam.
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May 14, 2013 00:12
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OldMemes posted:You have to remember, the Fallout world isn't like the real world. In real life, House would be awful, but he's basically a philanthropist in the blasted wastelands. House isn't a dictator, he's a guy with a lot of stuff who employs a lot of people, and he wants everyone to have lots of stuff and work for him....so long as things do smoothly. House just wants to chill in his tank, working on his plan and letting everyone benefit. There's no indication whatsoever in the game that House wants everyone to benefit from his plans. If that were true, he wouldn't throw around vague promises of space exploration as being an ultimate good for humanity. He'd probably rather help the poor people on his doorstep rather than gunning them down in cold blood for the "crime" of not having 2000 bottlecaps or whatever. And you're admitting that he won't "waste" resources on an area that he doesn't want RE: Freeside. That certainly doesn't sound like wanting everyone to work for him and benefit to me. I also don't think that a guy who has willingly cut himself off from humanity for 200+ years has any idea about what's good for humanity. Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 00:58 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 00:55
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Byzantine posted:House wants everyone, as in the whole of humanity, to benefit from his plans. Whether or not a specific individual benefits is irrelevant as long as the greater cause is fulfilled. But House hasn't done any good since the bombs fell. He could have saved untold millions of innocent lives with his high-tech missile defenses, but instead he uses them to protect a loving casino in the middle of the desert. Then he uses said casino to exploit the gently caress out of people while using none of those resources to help any of them in any tangible way. I don't think that spouting lame platitudes about "scientific progress" and "humanity's destiny is in the stars" is going to benefit humanity as a whole when 99% of what's left of mankind is clinging to life in a radioactive murderous global hellhole. Is it okay to let those people suffer for however many hundreds of years it will take House to colonize the moon using the scraps of what the Old World left behind? It's not just that a few people won't benefit from House sending a securitron to the moon or whatever--no one will. The NCR spreading "Ideals of Democracy" isn't what makes them the best choice--it's the fact that, as far as we know, the NCR protects more people than any other singular organization on the planet from the horrors of the wasteland. Hell, by those standards you could argue that the NCR is the largest humanitarian organization in the world. The NCR isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's fair (especially in the context of Fallout) to write off a nation that provides stability and safety to millions of people without enslaving them just because they're "imperialist."
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May 14, 2013 01:32
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Nitrousoxide posted:Lets be honest here. If House had installed the missile defenses throughout the US what would have happened? Remember this is the US that had annexed Canada, invaded Mexico, controlled the last bit of oil in the world, and who's government was run by a bunch of facists who welcomed nuclear war? Canada is better off under US military occupation--it only took 300 years and multiple tries, but we've finally freed our brothers to the north from the oppressive British monarchy! In all seriousness, though, I wasn't referring to House protecting the US government from nuclear bombs, but more protecting major population centers filled with innocent civilians who were nuked into oblivion thanks to circumstances completely beyond their control. Instead he used it to protect himself so he could mold the post-apocalyptic world in his own way. One could even suggest that he saw the oncoming nuclear destruction as an opportunity to further his weird vision of a scientific-industrial utopia. Hell, if you're really ambitious you could argue that, as a huge part of the pre-war military industrial complex, House was partly responsible for the war happening in the first place--while the NCR could be seen as a throwback to pre-war society that allowed World War III to happen, House is literally a pre-war relic that helped cause World War III, and living in a pod by himself for 200 years doesn't seem to have changed him one bit (I don't necessarily subscribe to that idea myself, but it's an interesting argument). What really matters to me is that he seemingly had the power to save millions of innocent lives before the war, but decided to save his own instead, all in the name of his narcissistic "world vision." Sure, I guess it all amounts to whether or not you think his world vision will make humanity better, as we've been discussing. I guess I believe that there's nothing there to suggest that it will.
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May 14, 2013 22:38
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I didn't mean to imply that he had the power to stop the war, or to save all the innocent people in the world, or even a fraction of them. I just wanted to point out that he seemingly had the power to save a larger number of innocent lives than he did, or at the very least save something more valuable to mankind than a bunch of casinos, but instead he chose to save himself because he believes himself to be some kind of Jesus-like figure. I don't know about you guys, but when I think of Jesus-like qualities, I don't immediately think of the guy who (presumably) helped design Liberty Prime.
Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 23:16 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 23:04
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Raygereio posted:Again: House barely managed to keep one city from being completely obliterated. He did not had the power to save more. So then why are we so impressed by House in the first place? He's accomplished basically nothing as far as the current residents of the Fallout world are concerned and has done almost zilch to help humanity as of the beginning of FONV. You can make all the excuses you want--"he didn't have the resources to save anything besides the strip," "he couldn't do anything without the platinum chip"--I think House supporters are putting far too much faith in a guy who's total worth in the current wasteland amounts to zero accomplishments and extremely vague promises about making the world better. Regarding the Hoover Dam and Fresh Drinking Water point--I guess you're right. Although House almost definitely wasn't thinking about helping the victims of World War III when he saved those things, and I get the feeling that preserving those two things was completely incidental to saving the Strip, it's only fair that I acknowledge your point when some of my defenses of NCR imperialism revolve around the notion of "it's not the intent that matters, it's the results" Raygereio posted:I don't know: If the New Testament had a couple of chapters where Jesus did awesome stuff like building a giant, Optimus-Prime-quoting robot, I probably wouldn't have dozed off in church as a kid. One of my favorite things about Liberty Prime is that he throws nukes exactly like a quarterback throwing a football. Truly the most American weapon 
Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 23:57 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 23:55
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/\/\/\/\/\/\ Yeah, how would the Courier change his clothes without a Pip-Boy? Byzantine posted:Because he has done great things in the past, and I want to see his grandiose plans fulfilled more than I want to help the NCR eat everything in its path. What has he done that's so great? What's so great about his grandiose plans? (no one has been able to say exactly what those are yet, btw) And the NCR "eating everything in it's path" has thus far proven to be a net positive.
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May 15, 2013 00:27
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StandardVC10 posted:Also, the NCR may be repeating the mistakes of the Old World, but House is the Old World. You'd be handing the keys back to one of the people who were at the wheel when the world burned the first time, because that new kid looks like he might crash. Sure, his achievements before the great war are impressive, and he's not actually one of the people who pressed any buttons, but of course that's what you hear about from his existence back then because everybody else died. This. And although it might not help our point, I wanted to point out that this mirror's the Democrats' 2010 campaign mantra of "they crashed the car, why give them the keys back?"
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May 15, 2013 00:40
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StandardVC10 posted:I'm exaggerating to make a point a little- nothing directly points to House promulgating the war personally or knowing about the Vault-Tec experiments/Enclave. But RobCo was massive and it couldn't have been as successful as it was without a great deal of political and cultural influence as well. I agree with you, I even said as much in an earlier post. It's just worth pointing out that trashing the NCR as an imitation of the Old World, then comparing them unfavorably to a literal Old World Relic that was arguably part of the problem doesn't make much sense. CommonSensei posted:As far as House's accomplishments and influence goes, my understanding is that RobCo Industries had a hand in pretty much all of the major robotics (Securitron, Protectron), all of the operating systems on computers seen, as well as the aforementioned Pip-Boy. Mister Handy and Liberty Prime were joint efforts with General Atomics International. Sure, he's proven that he's done an excellent job of building killbots, but I fail to see how that's been beneficial to humanity. And I guess that inventing operating systems and Pipboys is kinda cool, but it doesn't make me want to anoint him the Absolute Monarchy of All Humanity any more than I would want to anoint Bill Gates or Steve Jobs the King of the World for inventing Windows or iPads, respectively. Sheen Sheen fucked around with this message at 00:58 on May 15, 2013 |
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May 15, 2013 00:48
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