|
Kuiperdolin posted:Or Khelus dies before Golgo, the Great Ordeal crashes and burns, the No-God rises and everybody panics. Hero time. Sadly, this would open a giant plothole because in the second trilogy, there are some chapter-prefaces presumably written by Kelhus under a pseudonym, long after the second apocalypse. Of course, Bakker could always change his mind and retcon this minor fact away! 
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2014 16:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 04:58 |
|
|
Libluini posted:Sadly, this would open a giant plothole because in the second trilogy, there are some chapter-prefaces presumably written by Kelhus under a pseudonym, long after the second apocalypse. Of course, Bakker could always change his mind and retcon this minor fact away! Wait, what? How do you know this?
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
mcustic posted:Wait, what? How do you know this? From some offhand remark Bakker made years ago. I think maybe in his blog or something? I could be totally wrong, though! (It was literally years ago. )
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2014 18:40
|
|
|
Good thing you spoilered something you vaguely remember from years ago. Were Kellhus to die, the "hero" better not be Achamian. Or Mimara. Or Esmenet. Or loving Inrilatas. No hero. I want to see it all collapse. I want the architecture of this world revealed through its breaking.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2014 03:40
|
|
|
If Kellhus dies, the "hero" would obviously have to be Cnaiur
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2014 09:39
|
|
|
If you don't think the Consult are the protagonists then I don't even know what to say about you. gently caress the Gods. gently caress the Outside. Bring on the No-God.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2014 13:28
|
|
|
Something which remains untouched-upon, despite Bakkers lavishly detailed history of the world (one of my favorite things about this series is how much time he's spent on the world building ), is the far east where humanity and the tusk originated from. Unlikely that he would introduce a new and major faction at this stage, but the potential remains for a deus ex machina from that angle.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
Rime posted:Something which remains untouched-upon, despite Bakkers lavishly detailed history of the world (one of my favorite things about this series is how much time he's spent on the world building I'm pretty sure he explains how the Inchoroi pretend to be prophets and give the tribes of man the tusk as a holy artifact. The tusk tells them to migrate west over the mountains which helps the Inchoroi disrupt the Nonmen civilization.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2014 06:19
|
|
|
One tribe mostly stayed behind and no real contact has been kept up with them. Presumably there are still people in Eanna. Apparently those mountains are pretty hideous to cross though so there's no trade or anything with Earwa.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2014 20:57
|
|
|
Poldarn posted:I'm pretty sure he explains how the Inchoroi pretend to be prophets and give the tribes of man the tusk as a holy artifact. The tusk tells them to migrate west over the mountains which helps the Inchoroi disrupt the Nonmen civilization. There's also the story of how the Nonmen found humans running around in Eanna and started enslaving them, since they thought in their madness they could replace their dead women and children with human companionship. So I guess they got what they deserved in the end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2014 22:04
|
|
|
I don't know if they really deserve it. I mean they do horrible stuff but they're generally quite insane when they do that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
I thought that humans arrived before the womb plague, and were tutored by the Nonmen?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 03:28
|
|
|
The Breaking of the Gates was long after the Womb Plague. This is why apparently some of the Nonmen Mansions just opened their gates and let the invaders come in and kill them all. They didn't care anymore. Their race was doomed, and they'd already had their vengeance on the Inchoroi. The Nonman Tutelage happens later, when men have already carved out a huge chunk of territory and mellowed out about the whole "Suffer not the False Men to live" thing. Incidentally the extensive later relations between Nonmen and humans having no hybrid children after the womb plague probably indicates that the Cunuroi-sapiens hybrid only works with a Cunuroi female and a Homo sapiens male. Getting different results depending on the gender combination in inter-species hybridization is something that happens in real life. Lions and tigers can only breed if the lion of the pair is male and the tiger female. The inverse results in no offspring. Likewise, this seems to have been true in human history for crosses between neanderthal and sapiens; since despite traces of neanderthal DNA being present in Europeans, there's not neanderthal mitochondrial DNA, which can only be inherited from the mother.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 04:15
|
|
|
There actually are female lion-male tiger offspring. Your words made me realize how much I forget about this series, it's been forever since I read it, I think I gotta do a reread before TUC comes out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 04:37
|
|
|
Ditto, time to go back for a third round.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
This is my favorite series to do rereads of, and probably the most rewarding one too. There's just so much depth in about every way that's possible. The audiobooks are great for this and they have an awesome narrator.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 05:57
|
|
|
His Cnaiur voice 
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 11:56
|
|
|
Poldarn posted:I'm pretty sure he explains how the Inchoroi pretend to be prophets and give the tribes of man the tusk as a holy artifact. The tusk tells them to migrate west over the mountains which helps the Inchoroi disrupt the Nonmen civilization. I thought he actually said this out of book, like in an interview somewhere? I remember being irritated that a big plot point like that was dropped in such a weird way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 13:52
|
|
|
Jeffrey posted:There actually are female lion-male tiger offspring. savinhill posted:This is my favorite series to do rereads of, and probably the most rewarding one too. There's just so much depth in about every way that's possible. The audiobooks are great for this and they have an awesome narrator. Yeah you catch all kinds of poo poo. Like this re-read I noticed that Esmenet can kinda sorta see Skin-Spies. So early marker of Dunyain genetic compatibility. Seldom Posts posted:I thought he actually said this out of book, like in an interview somewhere? I remember being irritated that a big plot point like that was dropped in such a weird way. Yeah he did and it pissed me off too. Maybe the fact that he dropped it outside the books means it's never going to come up though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2014 15:13
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:
Yeah, speaking of rereads and Skin-Spies, one of my favorite things about rereading these is trying to figure out exactly when some characters were replaced and seeing if there's hints to verify it. On my last time through I think I discovered some about the Dowager Empress.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 18:38
|
|
|
I'm two thirds of the way through Neuropath. Jesus christ. I love what it's doing, and it's great seeing the disturbing implications of modern neuroscience really prodded at and explored in a fictional work. The victims are all really creepy and troubling and the themes hit to heart. But gently caress me is it preachy. Half the book is just Tom telling people about the results of psychological research and repeating the same stuff about The Argument again and again. I'm glad that the book was written, it's a topic ripe for exploration and right up Bakker's alley, but I wish he'd been a bit more subtle about it and more willing to show rather than tell. Boing fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
Finished it. Loved it. Bakker rocks. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned reading Neuropath and having 'the usual response to reading Neuropath'. What's the usual response?
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 11:39
|
|
|
Boing posted:Finished it. Loved it. Bakker rocks. Being skeeved out, I think? I have not read Neuropath so I can't comment.
|
|
#
?
Nov 3, 2014 17:46
|
|
|
It's Bakker so they probably decided it was too rapey.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 07:54
|
|
|
Boing posted:Finished it. Loved it. Bakker rocks. Wondering how he can write good fantasy, but horrible thrillers? Neuropath is really not that good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 08:19
|
|
|
I found it incisive, provocative, and disturbing, which are the same things I found Prince of Nothing to be. Prince of Nothing has more breadth to it (it's a bigger series!) and has a lot to talk about, but the core theme of free will as a function of human ignorance is the same throughout both. Neuropath just pushes on confronts it head on with much less subtlety, while in Prince of Nothing it takes a back seat to the fantasy worldbuilding and secondary themes (morality and damnation I guess?). Neuropath also helped me appreciate the Dunyain a lot more and where Bakker might be going with them. At first I thought it was an oversight that people without emotion could have any motivation to do anything at all, and that Bakker hadn't thought it through to the end, but he obviously has and he obviously is saying something with it. The Dunyain search to become "self-moving souls" is doomed of course since it doesn't make any sense, unless the metaphysics of Earwa allow for a fundamentally different interpretation of free will than in our world.
|
|
#
?
Nov 5, 2014 13:18
|
|
|
So I bought Neuropath yesterday and read the whole thing in a day. It's a pretty good horror thriller but way too much time is spent on Bakker shoving his nihilistic philosophy, via discussion of the story's MacGuffin, down your throat. I will say the guy is able to construct fairly horrific scenes and concepts that say with you after your literary adventure is over; I have spent most of today uneasy and disgusted. This is the first Bakker book I've read - my brother loves the PoN novels, of which he has lent me the first; I think I'll continue down the rabbit hole.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
I must be a terrible person because I enjoyed neuropath too, as terribly bleak and nihilistic as it is. PoN is better though, give it a shot!
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
superh posted:I must be a terrible person because I enjoyed neuropath too, as terribly bleak and nihilistic as it is. PoN is better though, give it a shot! Oh I enjoyed it; I couldn't put it down. It was just a total mindfuck, is all, and left me kind of depressed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 00:54
|
|
|
Dystram posted:So I bought Neuropath yesterday and read the whole thing in a day. The reason for reading Bakker is the fantasy series, which are pretty amazing in scope and characters. Giving a poo poo about an authors opinion will lead you down the wrong rabbit hole, as clearly evidenced by the recommendation thread. As for Neuropath, it went a little bit too crazy in the end and as example, American Psycho left me far more disturbed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 09:03
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:The reason for reading Bakker is the fantasy series, which are pretty amazing in scope and characters. I meant the rabbit hole as in "reading the rest of his books" not "giving a poo poo about, and exploring his opinion;" his philosophy and opinions are garbage imho. I've been meaning to read PoN for a while now; I think I'll tackle it after I'm done with some cosmic horror stuff I'm reading.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 14:43
|
|
|
Bakker's philosophy is the main reason I read his books, he has a lot of insight into the philosophical implications of his premises and his premises are very compelling to begin with. I was really disappointed with Dune because Frank Herbert had a bunch of cool ideas in his world and characters but failed to deliver on any of them, he didn't seem to have the writing chops to see his conclusions out to the end. Meanwhile Bakker's writing is evocative and thoughtful enough to make you fully appreciate what it's like to never forget anything ever, or not distinguish between past and future, or see the emotions and 'movements of the soul' that tug at the strings of the face. It's odd that you prefer American Psycho since that came across as shallow sadism and gore to me; compared with Neuropath which is really effective at making a profound point about the nature of human experience. Bakker knows his psychology and his neuroscience and it shows, the stuff he writes about is hard to deny. I think we're coming at it from very different perspectives?
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 15:23
|
|
|
I think the biggest problem with Neuropath is not that it's preachy. It's that every single person you meet for 4/5ths of the novel displays a strong reaction to hearing about this theory. Most people would just shrug.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
Yeah, the argument pushed in Neuropath is a triviality. It's like listening to someone at a party try to blow your mind with the idea that morality is a human construct. Then he asks if you've heard of a world called 'Gor' Blindsight is a much better book about the ramifications of monism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 16:46
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Yeah, the argument pushed in Neuropath is a triviality. It's like listening to someone at a party try to blow your mind with the idea that morality is a human construct. Then he asks if you've heard of a world called 'Gor' Exactly. My problem with the ideas peddled in the book were that because our consciousness is partly or mostly composed of electrochemical processes, that can be mechanically subverted and augmented through outside intervention, it means human experience is meaningless, while the idea that the world has meaning because humans build meaning is off the table or at least never brought up. It felt like Neil was an author insert and the grand purpose of the book was to say "dude you're just a bio computer, bro, as i have expertly proved through the fact that you can alter a person's identity through purposeful brain damage, so just kill yourself, k?" Also, it's pretty much a long-form version, conceptually, of a Thomas Ligotti short story called "Purity." Dystram fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Nov 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Nov 6, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
Boing posted:Bakker's philosophy is the main reason I read his books, he has a lot of insight into the philosophical implications of his premises and his premises are very compelling to begin with. I was really disappointed with Dune because Frank Herbert had a bunch of cool ideas in his world and characters but failed to deliver on any of them, he didn't seem to have the writing chops to see his conclusions out to the end. Meanwhile Bakker's writing is evocative and thoughtful enough to make you fully appreciate what it's like to never forget anything ever, or not distinguish between past and future, or see the emotions and 'movements of the soul' that tug at the strings of the face. Does he actually know his psychology and neuroscience? More knowledgeable goons in that area have called him a hack. His academic career is in literature and philosophy, which hardly makes him an expert in neuroscience. As most scientists know, it is very easy to lie to people about science since people in general don't know enough about a subject to know if one is lying or not. I also didn't find Neuropath that disturbing, mostly since I already have a very cynical view on humanity (based on human history), and it was in the end a rather bland thriller. PoN is a different thing, since it is fantasy and taking that too serious is just asking for problems. General Battuta posted:Blindsight is a much better book about the ramifications of monism. Not wanting to take this too off-topic, but what do you mean by this? I read Blindsight a month ago, and while it was very good, I never saw it as an exercise in philosophy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 08:58
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Does he actually know his psychology and neuroscience? More knowledgeable goons in that area have called him a hack. His academic career is in literature and philosophy, which hardly makes him an expert in neuroscience. To be fair, no one demands a storyteller to have a degree in everything he/she writes, that would be insane. As long as he knows enough to spin some entertaining yarn, who cares? Besides, I would be careful with claims of "lying" in fiction, since technically everything fictional is a lie. Storytellers are liars, didn't you know? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 12:29
|
|
|
Libluini posted:To be fair, no one demands a storyteller to have a degree in everything he/she writes, that would be insane. As long as he knows enough to spin some entertaining yarn, who cares? Besides, I would be careful with claims of "lying" in fiction, since technically everything fictional is a lie. Storytellers are liars, didn't you know? Pretty much, yeah. The reason why I don't get upset by Bakker is simply because I don't take his world view and opinions to be anything else than a work of art. PoN is a great fantasy series and the main fault with Neuropath is that it is a pretty ordinary thriller story. Disciple of the Dog wasn't pretty good either. As for the lying part, that has more to do with the scientific field and how you make science understandable for the common man. If you don't know anything about a research area, you also don't have the requisite knowledge to distinguish between actual knowledgeable persons and hacks. I don't know much about neuroscience, so I can't really say whether Bakker knows what he is talking about, but given that is not his field of research, reasonable doubts of his conclusions is in order.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 12:50
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Pretty much, yeah. The reason why I don't get upset by Bakker is simply because I don't take his world view and opinions to be anything else than a work of art. Well, I've read a book about neurology once, so Bakker's stuff seemed plausible to me. (At least in his fantasy series, I haven't read Neuropath, because thriller stories are boring as gently caress for me.) You may take this with a huge sack of salt, of course.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 13:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 04:58 |
|
|
I'm a psychologist and Bakker is spot on, at least in Neuropath, with his understanding of modern trends in psychology and neuroscience. The dude's done his research, which is why I find it so compelling. Fiction books written by psychologists (and philosophers) are always a treat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2014 14:33
|
|