|
I'm re-reading this series for the first time, and I have to ask: am I the only one that finds the whole story about Moenghus' exile suspect? I got the impression from Kellhus' time with the trapper that he'd never even seen Sranc before. Perhaps not even heard of them. He had to read the trapper's face before he put the name to the tracks. And reading the prologue, the Dunyain may or may not have sent Kellhus to kill his father. But there's never a flashback to them giving him said order, or as far as I can remember any internal monologue of the sort from Kellhus besides contingency plans should his father prove hostile. In fact, as he first leaves Ishual he specifically thinks "I shall dwell in my father's house." I'm beginning to think that entire story was simply made up for Cnaiur's benefit. Back to black cum talk. This series has made the not inconsiderable achievement of being more sexually awkward than ASOIAF. But in its defense, it's supposed to be. I'm pretty sure GRRM does it by accident.
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2011 15:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 09:40 |
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Back to black cum talk. This series has made the not inconsiderable achievement of being more sexually awkward than ASOIAF. But in its defense, it's supposed to be. I'm pretty sure GRRM does it by accident. Bakker does credit porn as an inspiration! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47G5onp-rOI "What do you think is the key to writing convincing characters and plot?" RSB: "I would actually say lots of good luck and a couple bags of good weed. [laughs] I mean, really, like how did I come up with this poo poo? I mean, sometimes I think back and it's like where did it all come from? And I don't know. You know, maybe a troubled childhood helps. Too much porno. You know, it's one of those things. The ideas come and as an author you can take credit for being there when it happens, you know, or you can take more of a sort of ancient mindset, which is what I like to do, and be baffled by the mystery of it all." GRRM could learn from such honesty. It would be so much easier to excuse Myrish swamps and gratuitous lesbian handmaiden action if he just admitted the role of porn.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2011 23:53
|
|
|
Are the Nonmen just crazy because their lives have been so incredibly lovely and horrifying, or is their madness an inescapable consequence of immortality? I remember that there was talk about how awful memories remain and accrete whereas happiness just fades away.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 19:25
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Are the Nonmen just crazy because their lives have been so incredibly lovely and horrifying, or is their madness an inescapable consequence of immortality? I remember that there was talk about how awful memories remain and accrete whereas happiness just fades away.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 20:10
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Are the Nonmen just crazy because their lives have been so incredibly lovely and horrifying, or is their madness an inescapable consequence of immortality? I remember that there was talk about how awful memories remain and accrete whereas happiness just fades away. It was mentioned that they can't see paintings but they do somehow see those carvings and statues in their halls differently than humans because of their different visual system. The rest of their mind could be equally alien.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2011 20:34
|
|
|
I think Bakker is extrapolating from human limitations for the Nonmen: connections to memory neurons weaken or break if not used for long periods, traumatic memories form stronger connections, and PSTD from warring with the Inchoroi and the loss of any potential children combine to produce hosed up madmen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 05:32
|
|
|
Hey so when Achmian and the nonman king face off against the dragon, it says that the Ichinroi have gone from planet to planet reducing each to 144,000 trying to save themselves. That number also appears in Revelations as the number of people who will be saved before the apocalypse, is this a mere coincidence, or is Bakker linking his world explicitly to Christian theology?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 05:42
|
|
|
Mr.48 posted:Hey so when Achmian and the nonman king face off against the dragon, it says that the Ichinroi have gone from planet to planet reducing each to 144,000 trying to save themselves. That number also appears in Revelations as the number of people who will be saved before the apocalypse, is this a mere coincidence, or is Bakker linking his world explicitly to Christian theology? Aside from the imagery in the organized (in-story) religions (circumflex vs. crucifix etc), various real world religious imagery shows up in Earwa in contexts that aren't explicitly religious. The imagery of the sephiroth (or possibly the qliphoth) shows up a couple of times. The most obvious is with the sarcophagus of the no-god, which has eleven chorae embedded in it. Then there's the various tree references in TTT, with Kellhus being told about where to find his father, and having the vision of some sort of human-beast creature meditating under a leafless tree (this might also be a reference to the bodhi tree, hard to tell though since the creature was obviously supposed to be the no-god).
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 06:13
|
|
|
Algid posted:It's intentional. All those examples are more like analogies, but the exact number seems more of a reference.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2011 09:22
|
|
|
So, on a whim I bought Neuropath for the Kindle and read it. Don't read Neuropath. It's not very good, and it really, REALLY doesn't help contradict the "Bakker is a sex pervert" crowd. This book actually brought my opinion of him down a little bit, and made me think he actually shows admirable restraint when writing his fantasy novels.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 16:29
|
|
|
Popular Human posted:So, on a whim I bought Neuropath for the Kindle and read it. Don't read Neuropath. It's not very good, and it really, REALLY doesn't help contradict the "Bakker is a sex pervert" crowd. This book actually brought my opinion of him down a little bit, and made me think he actually shows admirable restraint when writing his fantasy novels. Yes. I agree. I'm jaded and desensitized and all that and it's really rare for a book or movie to weird me out, but Neuropath really bothered me - not all the neurophilosophical stuff, but just some of the poo poo that happens. I felt really unhappy that I'd read it. It was the point where I started wondering if there was a bit of merit to the claims that Bakker is somewhat misogynistic/hosed up. And yeah, like you said, it made me realize that the Second Apocalypse books are low-key Bakker.
|
|
#
?
Nov 23, 2011 16:43
|
|
|
I'm about halfway through The Darkness that Comes Before and it feels like this just isn't clicking for me. It's like the worst parts of a Steven Erikson book without any decent characterization. It seems like every character introduced is yet another political schemer, small piece on a large chess board blah blah. He's throwing out factions, names and kingdoms practically at random. I feel like I'm almost overwhelmed with information but I barely know anything at all about the various characters and backstory. Does this improve? I wanted to like this guys stuff, hes from my hometown but it seems like it's not my thing. If it was just his first book and the series greatly improves then I'll stick with it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2011 14:59
|
|
|
Get through the second book, then decide. The first book is shallow and wide, because that's how Kellhus experiences it at first.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2011 15:47
|
|
|
I was under the impression that the Nonmens brain issues weren't necessarily unique to them. The Inchoroi gave them immortality, but as they often do, screwed them in the long run by not altering their neurology enough to be able to take it. The whole first book basically reads like the first third of a single novel. The other two books in the Prince of Nothing series likewise read like the middle and the climax respectively. I don't think it's a very good thing to dump on readers just starting the series, but on the positive side pretty 3/4ths of Thousandfold Thought reads like the climax of a novel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2011 01:37
|
|
|
Maytag posted:Get through the second book, then decide. The first book is shallow and wide, because that's how Kellhus experiences it at first. Shriah & the Shrial Temples = the Pope & the Catholic Church Nansur Empire = the Byzantine Empire the Fanim = the Muslims and Turks The Three Seas = Europe
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2011 02:32
|
|
|
I've heard that he originally intended the Fanim to be based more on the Persia of antiquity. Seleukara and Nenciphon sound a lot like Seleucia and Ctesiphon, so it may be true. Think I'd have preferred that as a matter of personal taste. Still, the Three Seas have king of a Hellenistic feel despite the whole Crusades thing. Amphora, drinking wine from bowls, slaves everywhere, etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2011 03:51
|
|
|
The Gunslinger posted:I'm about halfway through The Darkness that Comes Before and it feels like this just isn't clicking for me. It's like the worst parts of a Steven Erikson book without any decent characterization. It seems like every character introduced is yet another political schemer, small piece on a large chess board blah blah. He's throwing out factions, names and kingdoms practically at random. I feel like I'm almost overwhelmed with information but I barely know anything at all about the various characters and backstory. I found the same thing, but I stuck it out and referred to the indexes at the back a lot. The book ends strong and the next two keep it up. I think it would be worth it to stick it out. If you still don't like it by the middle of the second book, I would just drop it though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 02:32
|
|
|
Seldom Posts posted:I found the same thing, but I stuck it out and referred to the indexes at the back a lot. The book ends strong and the next two keep it up. I think it would be worth it to stick it out. If you still don't like it by the middle of the second book, I would just drop it though. Yeah, the books suffer heavily from what I call "fantasy-name syndrome", but the core ideas and plot are pretty cool.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 05:28
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:I've heard that he originally intended the Fanim to be based more on the Persia of antiquity. Seleukara and Nenciphon sound a lot like Seleucia and Ctesiphon, so it may be true. Think I'd have preferred that as a matter of personal taste. Still, the Three Seas have king of a Hellenistic feel despite the whole Crusades thing. Amphora, drinking wine from bowls, slaves everywhere, etc. Also, I always thought Zeum was Africa but I saw someone say Japan.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 19:25
|
|
|
savinhill posted:What culture are the Skylvendi supposed to be like? I picture them to be a mixture of Mongols and American Indians. I believe they are dark-skinned people with a Japanese style culture.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 21:04
|
|
|
Don't they wear powdered wigs, too? 18th Century central Europe Japan o-Africa. Honestly Bakker doesn't seem too reliant on directly transplanting things. Most of the cultures make sense in the universe as opposed to "Well my fantasy world has a far south area so there should be black people."
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2011 21:43
|
|
|
Good lord, an author that can appreciate complexity and employ analogues that are anything less than 1-to-1, god forbid he understand and explore the darker nature of the human condition and its intrinsic relationship with sexuality Neuropath rules, screw you guys, it's just a freakin' thriller, and a dope one at that. Sorry if modern cognitive science freaks you out. Which is kind of why that subject matter is a great choice for a thriller. savinhill posted:Also, I always thought Zeum was Africa but I saw someone say Japan. My exact words were "niggas in japan"
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 06:26
|
|
|
yellowjournalism posted:Neuropath rules, screw you guys, it's just a freakin' thriller, and a dope one at that. Sorry if modern cognitive science freaks you out. This is literally the opposite of why it squicked me out. Like I said, I am completely onboard with all the scientific and philosophical points he made in Neuropath. I just think some of the ways he decided to illustrate his points reveal certain implicit attitudes he holds - something he'd probably agree with, if he's as aware of modern cognitive science as I am. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 06:31
|
|
|
Fair enough, I haven't read it in a bit; so what implicit attitudes are squicking you out?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 07:11
|
|
|
yellowjournalism posted:My exact words were "niggas in japan" Boondocks style?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 08:24
|
|
|
Yeah, I had no problem with the cognitive science stuff (other than how it tended to be expounded by the narrator in ten page speeches that slowed the plot way down), I specifically said it doesn't help the perception that Bakker is some sex fiend. It's really obvious from Neuropath that he really 'digs' rape and cuckolding how many loving times do we hear about Thomas' wife/girlfriend/fuckbuddy banging someone else behind his back or RIGHT in front of him, especially considering how short of a novel it is. Also, the reveal of The Chiropractor was just loving stupid.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 14:21
|
|
|
Yeah I agree with all that, plus the scene in the cabin made me really uncomfortable for reasons that are hard to articulate. I didn't like how he turned a previously sympathetic female character into a rape slut and then killed her because she was literally overwhelmed by how slutty she was and how great it felt to rape people. Then he leaves her dead body lying around and mentions it casually but nobody gives a gently caress at all, because women in R. Scott Bakker books are objects and lessons, not characters! It sort of drew out the fact that I don't think he's ever written a major female character who doesn't cheat and serve as a source of angst and pain for a man. I haven't read Disciple of the Dog, but other than that, does he have a single woman who isn't some kind of source of sexual angst? Mimara maybe. I know, the neural circuitry for sex and violence are intertwined, I get the point. It was just a bit too 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 14:28
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:women in R. Scott Bakker books are objects and lessons, not characters! False. We have discussed this. Not to mention, we are mostly working in the realm of Ancient Man, where the idea of a sassy empowered charlie's angel is retarded and I'm sick of how transparently male gaze that poo poo is in fantasy. Bakker is presenting a pretty "realist" view of how an ancient society would work, with fantasy science and tech, and managed to put power in the hands of Serwa, Psatma Nannaferi, Mimara, and arguably sympathetic tones in Esmenet's beleaguered monarchy. I imagine most female regents felt equally beset on all sides during their medieval reigns. On top of that the Kellian empire brings women's rights and an all female sorcery school to international superpower status. I can't imagine anything more feminist, when the majority of empowered fantasy characters are super sexy stern badass queens and ninja warriors that play more to the male gaze than any kind of reality. And injecting modern day values so artificially into presumably ancient societies grinds my goddamn gears, so, when Bakker does it deftly, with Kellhus as a symbol of logic and rationality, I can only applaud it. You have to realize Kellhus like sending a loving feminist bomb back in time. Women's suffrage dropped less than a century ago, gentlemen. Stop trying to expect that any society, story, or any anything past that is going to be anything but pretty sexist. (Or that the large majority of the modern world isn't incredibly sexist) So to intelligently write a fantasy tale, grounded in reality, and make a strong effort to empower women within the bounds of plausibility, pitting them against the sexist chains of their surroundings, and showing just how hard it is to be a woman, is pretty dope and one of the best hopes for fantasy to be viewed as anything but escapist. So yeah I'm pretty tired of this argument that "Bakker hates women" because it is just straight up shortsighted. I think he has more empathy and understands the female psyche better than some of you do. General Battuta posted:I know, the neural circuitry for sex and violence are intertwined, I get the point. It was just a bit too I do actually mean things much deeper than just the cold neural stuff, but to avoid the risk of getting pretentious and standoffish, I'll capitulate because I do totally understand how undeniable his... "taste" permeates his intellectual treatment of the subject. And it is pretty gross and I do admittedly like it because I'm the type that gets so bored so easily, that I'm almost delighted to see someone handle "gross" subject matter with some intellectual oomph behind it. What I don't understand is how people like poo poo like Hostel.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 22:29
|
|
|
yellowjournalism posted:=Not to mention, we are mostly working in the realm of Ancient Man, where the idea of a sassy empowered charlie's angel is retarded and I'm sick of how transparently male gaze that poo poo is in fantasy. Bakker is presenting a pretty "realist" view of how an ancient society would work, with fantasy science and tech, and managed to put power in the hands of Serwa, Psatma Nannaferi, Mimara, and arguably sympathetic tones in Esmenet's beleaguered monarchy. I imagine most female regents felt equally beset on all sides during their medieval reigns. On top of that the Kellian empire brings women's rights and an all female sorcery school to international superpower status. The problems with his writing are not in the big ideas but in how he handles them scene by scene. (I just had an interesting conversation with him on his blog, actually; he said that he wrote Esmenet in TWLW as someone who was ultimately unable to escape her biological role, in order to frustrate liberal expectations. I told him - honestly - that this was interesting and I was glad he'd put thought into it.) quote:when the majority of empowered fantasy characters are super sexy stern badass queens and ninja warriors that play more to the male gaze than any kind of reality. Yes, in lovely fantasy, I completely agree. These are stupid archetypes. quote:ck in time. Women's suffrage dropped less than a century ago, gentlemen. Stop trying to expect that any society, story, or any anything past that is going to be anything but pretty sexist. (Or that the large majority of the modern world isn't incredibly sexist) So to intelligently write a fantasy tale, grounded in reality, and make a strong effort to empower women within the bounds of plausibility, pitting them against the sexist chains of their surroundings, and showing just how hard it is to be a woman, is pretty dope and one of the best hopes for fantasy to be viewed as anything but escapist. You're misunderstanding my criticism, and reacting to allegations I haven't leveled. I have no problem with the fact that the setting is incredibly sexist. Do you want me to explain further, or would you just like to drop the topic? e: We haven't actually discussed this before, just FYI, at least not that I can see from your post history. e2: Actually, I just want to say that reading your post was really frustrating, though not in a hostile 'you're an idiot' way. I know you must've heard a lot of arguments about how Bakker's world depicts horrible misogyny and therefore he's a horrible misogynist. I'm not making that argument, but I understand why you think I am, and I hope I can clarify. I'm a huge Prince of Nothing fan and I've put a lot of thought into the setting and the role of gender within it. The frustration lies in the assumption that I'm just flipping out at 'oh, god, rape, whores, the women don't FIGHT with SWORDS'. It's a little more complex than that, but I don't want to go forward discussing it until I'm sure we're both ready to listen to each other. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Dec 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 22:38
|
|
|
Sorry if I seemed to be coming directly at you, when it's simply that 99% of my conversations involving Bakker end in "cum" and "hates women" and "black hatecum on women" and it discourages me from posting at all Maybe you didn't go far back enough in my post history? This was on page 2: yellowjournalism posted:Really glad you brought this up so we can put this issue in the dirt. Forgive me if my tone rings vaguely hostile but I've been saying stuff like this over and over all thread like I'm playing whack a mole. e: Admittedly my mind sort of lumps all the Bakker-misogyny posts together, and you might be frustrated because you're only expressing just one angle or lament, but the thing is, to me nearly all of these accusations are still just splinters of the same, disturbing knee-jerk attitude I keep seeing from people who level criticisms at Bakker because they misunderstand his "rough" (lack of a better word) but realist characterization of females. If you appreciate that his thinking behind Esmenet in White-Luck was to present a woman trapped by her sex, biologically and sociologically, then I think you get what I'm arguing for. e2: I should just make it abundantly clear that I don't really reply directly at people in this thread. I mostly just see words and then shout airy proclamations from a rickety soap box mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 2, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2011 23:33
|
|
|
I don't think Bakker is a raging misogynist, but I can easily see how people could get that impression even ignoring the hatecumblackrape crap. It permeates a lot of the language he uses in his prose even outside of scenes with any sexual content. See Akka in Warrior Prophet blowing away his opponents' wards "like a rapist's thrust" or something to that effect. It made sense in context, and added a great deal of descriptive power to the action, but it's not something most authors do and frankly, Bakker seems to do it more as time goes on. Presumably because it's worked for him so far.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2011 23:40
|
|
|
I don't think the worlds Bakker depicts, as full of rape and institutionalized oppression as they are, are misogynist. They're honest (or at least, they make an argument rather than spinning a fantasy). He'd be the first to agree, though, that subconscious attitudes - often held without awareness - have an impact on behavior, and I think he's dropped a few tells over the years. I didn't pick up on them until I read Neuropath and White-Luck Warrior (though some of the decisions I objected to in WLW were apparently quite deliberate.) I don't think he's a Bad Terrible Misogynist Person, but I think he's got some issues with women, sex, and rape. They don't stop me from enjoying his work, but it's bittersweet to know he'll probably never write a female character who feels as genuine as some of his men. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 7, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2011 00:08
|
|
|
This may be a stupid thing for me to say, but...is it possible for a male author to be as good at writing female characters as males? A female life is more removed from his experience, after all. I can see what you mean about tells though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2011 00:58
|
|
|
I don't know! That's an interesting question. I'd have to think about it and see if I can come up with any really compelling examples.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2011 02:01
|
|
|
Of course a male author can write a female character and/or perspective as well as a male one. I don't think you really need examples for that, the field of psychology is proof enough; all it takes is some studying and plenty of empathy. And to me Bakker's incessant waxing philosophical about mankind's shortsighted, self-centered lack of empathy is my "tell" that he has made a concerted effort in his own life to combat his own innate, human certainty and its correspondingly egocentric perspective, and has perhaps spent some time learning about the female psyche. I do want to say that I respectfully disagree that the nasty, sexual stuff is merely "issues." Yes I think his fascination with the subject matter expresses itself in the perverse. I'm not saying that Dude does NOT have a sex dungeon in his basement. At this point I feel like we're basically discussing style rather than his moral or gender views, and so all I ask is that you consider my take. I personally think the elements of graphic sex and rape in The Second Apocalypse aren't born out of simply deviant tastes, like dude is really into hentai or some poo poo. I genuinely think it's because part of his vision of this ancient, fantastic, yet utterly realist world takes into account the sheer...weight of sex, and its relation to power, life, man and animal, good and evil. That chastity came with civilization. That before large-scale organized religion people worshiped fertility, and sex. That sex is old. Like, I think it's cool that someone has the balls to depict the old world how it was: it was really not too long ago that rape and pillage was par for the course. As if mankind hasn't been perverted as gently caress by our modern standards. Our modern depictions shy so far away from just how brutish sex and treatment of women has been, I feel that it's a disservice to the women who are treated like poo poo today, in countless, countless countries across the world where women are still viewed as babymachines. In truth, Earwa is not so far from our own, in terms of man's pettiness, arrogance, short-sightedness, and abusive, violent nature (not to mention misogyny). Yet amid his dark and cold world he DOES provide a shining beacon of hope, and that is Intelligence, and its acknowledgement of uncertainty. Our heroes and sympathetic characters are all smart. So it's actually a quite hopeful view of rational logic as our saving grace. Anyway okay so when you apply a harsh view of reality and how sex is undeniably intertwined to the core of our being, psyche, and mechanics of survival and life, to his completely insane swords-and-sandals-and-aliens fantasy world, wouldn't his ultimate manifestations of evil be obsessed with complete domination and profound violation? And how was that expressed, in the most base and ancient terms? Huge black cum spitting demon triple-cocks from space, that's how I surrender mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Dec 7, 2011 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2011 10:20
|
|
|
I never thought the stuff with the Inchoroi could be reasonably taken as an example of the author's misogynism anyway. They were clearly supposed to be horrifying. They work in the plot as a fun antithesis to the Dunyain as well. Both use logic and thought to overcome their circumstances; rejecting morals and tradition to advance their place in the world, but the Dunyain do it to retreat further from their animal desires while the Inchoroi do it to better sate them. Though it's a fantasy series at its core, each faction sort of represents two opposite paths that scifi style transhumanism could take. Given his apparent interest in neuroscience in regards to philosophy this really can't be an accident. But I'd still be shocked if he wasn't into some weird sexual poo poo in his private life. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2011 19:32
|
|
|
Guaranteed freak nasty at home with the missus
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2011 22:10
|
|
|
I don't think the setting - as full of rape aliens and institutionalized oppression as it is - is particularly misogynistic. If anything I think its brutality is influenced by the Bible. Same goes for all the semen imagery.
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2011 22:14
|
|
|
It doesn't have to stop there! Ancient mythology is full of fun depravity. Aurang is basically Space Zeus.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2011 04:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 09:40 |
|
|
New atrocity tale up: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/ Bakker recommends that some people hold off on this one until Unholy Consult is out but I didn't find any of the revelations in there too world shattering. Just kind of gives you a window into the Consult a lot earlier than the traditional pacing would have allowed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 14:57
|
|