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I seem to be one of the few that actually likes Coby. He's a good kid.
Jupiter Jazz fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Nov 3, 2011 |
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Nov 3, 2011 22:56
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I've never understood the hate for Coby either, it can get pretty over the top in fan discussions. Not having uber-powerful cool guy status handed to you immediately by the gods of plot isn't a crime.
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Nov 3, 2011 23:02
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Well, it was probably that in the beginning, he was a spineless complainer whose learned helplessness made him grating and hard to sympathize with. Personally, I think Coby's an alright character, and the fact that he was unlikeable in some ways in the beginning was an acceptable part of his character arc. I guess other people are always going to frame him as the whiner. First impressions go a long way.
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Nov 4, 2011 00:24
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I hated Coby and was glad he didn't stay with Luffy and Zoro. However after his reappearance he's pretty OK. The real importance of Coby is as an example of the effect of Luffy on the world. He makes everyone he interacts with stand a little taller and dream a little bigger, assuming they're neither an Absolute Justice rear end in a top hat nor the recipient of a world class beating.
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Nov 4, 2011 00:50
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Hell, even the people he and his crew do beat up get that. Look at Mr. 3.
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Nov 4, 2011 01:00
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Endorph posted:Hell, even the people he and his crew do beat up get that. Look at Mr. 3. Yeah, just look at Wapol. He went from being the hated leader of a backwater town to being a world famous multi-millionaire toy/steel baron with everything he ever wanted, even his own country to rule over after the timeskip.
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Nov 4, 2011 02:26
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Uh, what? Is that a manga thing? If so, gently caress you.
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Nov 4, 2011 02:41
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Anony Mouse posted:Uh, what? Is that a manga thing? If so, gently caress you. All of what he said was from manga covers, which will likely never be shown in the anime.
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Nov 4, 2011 02:45
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Stupid Boob posted:All of what he said was from manga covers, which will likely never be shown in the anime. Yeah, this is the same place where we learned that Enel made it to the Moon and had adventures with Moon Men. Also where we saw the continuing adventures of CP9 following their beating at the hands of the Straw Hats. I think the only cover stories to ever actually tie back in were Buggy's adventures, which they animated before his reintroduction.
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Nov 4, 2011 05:06
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Gyges posted:Yeah, this is the same place where we learned that Enel made it to the Moon and had adventures with Moon Men. Also where we saw the continuing adventures of CP9 following their beating at the hands of the Straw Hats. Aww, I feel like we're missing out. I also agree, Coby is there to show the Luffy affect very early on. He also sets up the whole Luffy is my friend/enemy/rival thing, too, that a lot of characters share. I have a hard time believing he was a throw-away later rewritten. I also like him now that he's more powerful, perhaps because I hated him sooo much when I first met him. I was actually surprised how early they came back, I definitely predicted their return though.
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Nov 4, 2011 05:51
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Gyges posted:Yeah, this is the same place where we learned that Enel made it to the Moon and had adventures with Moon Men. Also where we saw the continuing adventures of CP9 following their beating at the hands of the Straw Hats.
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Nov 4, 2011 09:38
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I forgot about Hachi and Camie. But all of it was fairly irrelevant to the plot while the Buggy ones actually showed how he got his missing pieces back. Or I could be remembering wrong.
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Nov 4, 2011 10:09
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Gyges posted:I forgot about Hachi and Camie. But all of it was fairly irrelevant to the plot while the Buggy ones actually showed how he got his missing pieces back. The Hachi-Camie cover arc showed how Hachi recovered the lost takoyaki sauce and opened a takoyaki stand, and his takoyaki was the deciding factor that induced Luffy to rescue Caimie from Duval's gang and kicked off the whole Saobody Isle-Human Auction Centre plot.
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Nov 4, 2011 10:22
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I really can't hate Coby for being the eternal pessimist in the beginning. poo poo, he was basically a child slave/punching bag for an evil pirate crew for gently caress's sake, that's gotta leave some marks. The thing with Coby is that he overcame that. Sure, it was Luffy that set him on the path, but it was his own courage and effort that got him where he is now. And actually, Coby is probably one of the bravest characters in the entire series. Even though he's terrified out of his mind he's the kind of guy who, when the chips come down, stands up to face even certain death just because it's the right thing to do. Because doing the right thing is his dream. Coby is a good character 
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Nov 4, 2011 11:16
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I wasn't a fan of Coby early on, but Garp's influence really turned it round. It seems to me that Coby and Helmeppo are fitting in where Garp had hoped Luffy and Ace would. Saying that Garp is just one of my favourite characters and I would love them to do an historical filler arc where Garp, Roger et al were in their prime.
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Nov 4, 2011 12:05
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Colonel K posted:I wasn't a fan of Coby early on, but Garp's influence really turned it round. It seems to me that Coby and Helmeppo are fitting in where Garp had hoped Luffy and Ace would. Garp is in his prime right now. This being a shounen series, the older you are, the more badass you become.
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Nov 4, 2011 12:16
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JosephWongKS posted:Garp is in his prime right now. This being a shounen series, the older you are, the more badass you become. Pretty sure he outright says he's not as strong as he used to be back in the good ol' days at one point, and that his cannonball punch isn't as good as it used to be. Think it was when he met Coby and Helmeppo. Not sure though. Regardless, he was still strong enough that he felt he could take Akainu after he killed Ace. And Sengoku believed him by the looks of things.
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Nov 4, 2011 12:20
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tsob posted:Pretty sure he outright says he's not as strong as he used to be back in the good ol' days at one point, and that his cannonball punch isn't as good as it used to be. Think it was when he met Coby and Helmeppo. Not sure though. Not to mention he downed Marco with a single punch. That's how tough Garp is.
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Nov 4, 2011 18:58
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I was never too bothered by Coby in his initial appearance honestly, because when I first started watching, barged through the series. I started watching, Coby showed up, and an hour later he was gone and I was like "oh, well, bye".
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Nov 4, 2011 19:08
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Coby's character at the beginning was mostly to show what kind of guy Luffy is, and the entire tone of the show. He was the one grounded in reality so Luffy could blow away expectations like declaring he'd rather die than not be the Pirate King. If this was a different manga, Coby would be the main character and Luffy would be the sparsely seen side one. As for now, I find him kind of boring, to be perfectly honest. While his character did need to return eventually, I really hope they don't go the Roger:Garp route for Luffy and him.
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Nov 5, 2011 01:44
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New episode is up. Poor Robin. She's the only one without friends to stop by to see her off. Reading the manga and even more-so watching the anime I get the feeling that Zoro didn't sleep alone during the past two years. 
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Nov 6, 2011 03:57
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Liar posted:Poor Robin. She's the only one without friends to stop by to see her off. Well if the Revolutionary Army showed up, it would have been sort of a big deal. Liar posted:Poor Tashigi... Go for the Harem End, Zoro!
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Nov 6, 2011 05:10
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I will never get tired of Franky's shameless attention-whoring. 
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Nov 6, 2011 05:22
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Liar posted:New episode is up. Franky also didn't have anyone come by to see him off. Liar posted:
Perona obviously likes him. Zoro's probably completely oblivious, though.
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Nov 6, 2011 05:24
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You know, I'm a big fan of Mr. 2, naturally. Ivaknov was awesome as well, as were the people of Newkama Land. They're all pretty crass and stereotypical, but they had character. Sanji's Okama friends? gently caress them. That's just being loving offensive. I've done my best to ignore them, to consider the much more fun and interesting, more fleshed out (but, I realize, not particularly realistic) depictions of transvestism from earlier in the manga... but watching that episode was the final straw. They're horrifically offensive. Their entire shtick is that they like dudes, but they look like men, so the dudes are horrified. They have absolutely nothing to them but that 'joke,' and even that joke is shallow and one sided. These aren't people acting in any recognizably human way, their actions are calculated to be 'humorously' off putting- there's no possible way to identify with them as people. They're just pure shallow symbols of "disgusting" lust that might be directed at you! Horrors! I realize One Piece is cartoony in a lot of ways, and there are a lot of shallow joke characters... and for the most part that's okay. Their lack of depth isn't the issue. The issue is how loving dehumanizing that joke is to real people. Even if they were "just" ugly women it would be a loving lovely regressive joke, but for them to be the entire population of the Island of Transvestites just pisses me right the gently caress off. It's incredibly lovely.
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Nov 6, 2011 05:47
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Glad I'm not alone on that. Somehow it is made even worse knowing that they live on the same island as Ivankov and his magical hormone dispensary.
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Nov 6, 2011 06:05
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Another incredible episode of OP.
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Nov 6, 2011 06:15
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There are times when I feel the joke is at Sanji's expense, and we're meant to laugh at him for being -phobic and freaking out and generally miserable. Just one more way in which he's the resident buttmonkey sometimes, and it's his own drat fault. There are other times that...yeah. mushroom_spore fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Nov 6, 2011 |
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Nov 6, 2011 06:16
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If the joke was at Sanji's expense, then there'd be at least some people there who weren't horrifically ugly, and the other characters wouldn't react the same way. I mean, Mr. 2 had some wonky lines, but he was still treated as a person with his own dreams, goals, and motivations. Same with Ivankoff or however you spell that. These characters literally just exist for you to laugh at and be horrified at, because, hey, they're different. Talking reindeer? Sure. Animated skeleton? Far out. Someone you do not find personally attractive having a romantic interest in you? Woah, slow down there. It's seriously harshing my 'gently caress yes One Piece' buzz.
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Nov 6, 2011 07:29
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Endorph posted:If the joke was at Sanji's expense, then there'd be at least some people there who weren't horrifically ugly, and the other characters wouldn't react the same way. Yeah, it was slightly tolerable when it was Sanji on their island. Oh ho, the ladies man is now surrounded by gay cross-dressers. How delightfully "ironic". But defeating an entire squad of Marines with the power of their super icky kisses and terminatoresque drive for affection jettisons the idea's kernel of non-horribleness into the ionosphere.
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Nov 6, 2011 08:37
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Endorph posted:If the joke was at Sanji's expense, then there'd be at least some people there who weren't horrifically ugly, and the other characters wouldn't react the same way. Probably the best example of something that strikes me as only at Sanji's expense is still a manga spoiler, but yeah you're pretty much right too.  And this episode was definitely not even remotely a "Sanji's expense" thing.That said, I can't complain about the ugly part, I love and prefer Oda's ugly/weird-looking characters, but in-story bashing them for their ugliness appears to be something reserved solely for okamas (okama? is that also plural?) and women. And that's not cool.
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Nov 6, 2011 13:54
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mushroom_spore posted:That said, I can't complain about the ugly part, I love and prefer Oda's ugly/weird-looking characters, but in-story bashing them for their ugliness appears to be something reserved solely for okamas (okama? is that also plural?) and women. And that's not cool. You're forgetting Duval.
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Nov 6, 2011 14:50
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tsob posted:Pretty sure he outright says he's not as strong as he used to be back in the good ol' days at one point, and that his cannonball punch isn't as good as it used to be. Eiba posted:They're horrifically offensive.
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Nov 6, 2011 16:07
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If it makes you folks feel any better, in the manga chapter one of the Okama's was chewing on one of the marine soldiers in the background. So it's presumed something was going on aside from just "Oh no they are creepy and fruity!"
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Nov 6, 2011 17:35
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Scratchman Apoo posted:If it makes you folks feel any better, in the manga chapter one of the Okama's was chewing on one of the marine soldiers in the background. So it's presumed something was going on aside from just "Oh no they are creepy and fruity!" In the manga it was just one panel, so it's assumed they were actually doing something fighty. Like you said, someone in the background was EATING A MARINE'S HEAD. That sort of thing is less "oh they're creepy and weird" and more "HOLY poo poo". It was pretty strongly implied that these people Sanji spent two years running away from might actually be really legitimately scary dudes! Then the anime kind of dashed that all under the rocks by giving them a good minute of airing time, during which they did nothing but flirt with marines, who were running in fear. Which really strongly undermines any mental image you might've had about them from the manga and replaces it with transphobia.
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Nov 6, 2011 18:22
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Endorph posted:If the joke was at Sanji's expense, then there'd be at least some people there who weren't horrifically ugly, and the other characters wouldn't react the same way. I think they're beautiful.  Gyges posted:Yeah, it was slightly tolerable when it was Sanji on their island. Oh ho, the ladies man is now surrounded by gay cross-dressers. How delightfully "ironic". But defeating an entire squad of Marines with the power of their super icky kisses and terminatoresque drive for affection jettisons the idea's kernel of non-horribleness into the ionosphere. This is why I can't watch One Piece in public. I think, but I could be wrong, that Japan is more tolerant (well, everyone has to be more tolerant than America), but it is unfortunate that the Newkamalites are reduced to just jokes about their hideousness/whatever. I do think it was initially to poke fun at Sanji. He loves women, so making them excessively manly makes it funnier I suppose. But we do have people like Ivankov, that orange dude, and Mr 2 to break up any stereotypes they are trying to make. I had been definitely thinking it for a while what kind of stereotype the show is building. But aside from the side-characters, I think overall the main characters are likable, so there's that at least. And I like to think they are just scaring/beating up a bunch of homophobes. It's not like Luffy had a problem when he was among them. Redcrimson posted:Poor Tashigi... Go for the Harem End, Zoro! Is it wrong to get with someone that reminds you of your dead girl/childhoodfriend? Shadow0 fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Nov 6, 2011 |
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Nov 6, 2011 18:59
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IShallRiseAgain posted:You're forgetting Duval. Wasn't the entire joke only that someone actually looked like Sanji's wanted poster?
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Nov 6, 2011 19:12
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gnome7 posted:In the manga it was just one panel, so it's assumed they were actually doing something fighty. Like you said, someone in the background was EATING A MARINE'S HEAD. That sort of thing is less "oh they're creepy and weird" and more "HOLY poo poo". It was pretty strongly implied that these people Sanji spent two years running away from might actually be really legitimately scary dudes! When I first went on my rant against them, for some reason I had expected people to dismiss the issue, saying it was all in good fun or something dumb and privileged like that, as a fanboyish defense of their favorite show. But instead the reaction has been universally negative. Sometimes people aren't as lovely as you expect. (Alternately, the okama in this episode were that bad.) Shadow0 posted:I think, but I could be wrong, that Japan is more tolerant (well, everyone has to be more tolerant than America), but it is unfortunate that the Newkamalites are reduced to just jokes about their hideousness/whatever. I do think it was initially to poke fun at Sanji. He loves women, so making them excessively manly makes it funnier I suppose. But we do have people like Ivankov, that orange dude, and Mr 2 to break up any stereotypes they are trying to make. I had been definitely thinking it for a while what kind of stereotype the show is building. But aside from the side-characters, I think overall the main characters are likable, so there's that at least. And I like to think they are just scaring/beating up a bunch of homophobes. It's not like Luffy had a problem when he was among them. It should be noted that Newkama Land in Impel Down was treated very differently from the Kamabakka kingdom. Newkama Land was a fun libertine place, where gender rules didn't apply and everyone was happy. The Kamabakka kingdom is full of animals in blond wigs and beard stubble. The former was incredibly awesome. The later was always a joke about how transmen want to be pretty, but aren't, which is a lovely joke on a bunch of levels. Japan seems like it might be bit more tolerant of homosexuality/transpeople, but they are far, far worse when it comes to good old fashioned sexism and gender roles. This can lead to issues for transpeople, particularly women who still have masculine features who are seen as scary and confusing, as demonstrated by this episode. Eiba fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Nov 6, 2011 |
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Nov 6, 2011 20:04
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I never reacted negatively to this scene in the manga, but the anime adaptation irks me too. Looking at the manga I always assumed that the marines were afraid of the Okamas because they were on the recieving end of some Newkama Kempo assbeatings with a side dish of fruityness, but the anime just drops the ball completely when it comes to execution. Also Kamabakka Kingdom is a bit mystifying, yes. I mean, given that Ivankov is back in charge, one would assume that anyone wanting to be a woman could just get some hormone shots. This would imply that the crossdressers who look like ugly men actually want to look like ugly men, but that doesn't really make sense on any level and the more I'm overthinking this the more confusing it gets. It's strange, really. Given that he's written characters like Mr.2 and Ivankov into his story Oda seems to have quite progressive views on transgender issues, but sometimes he still seems to play on stereotypes for laughs. Or maybe the message is that it's OK for burly men to dress in dresses and harass homophobes for shits and giggles? But that doesn't make much sense either, and now I'm more confused than usual. Anyway, I hope that we get some more Ivankov later on in the story, because Ivankov owns.
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Nov 6, 2011 20:31
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Cerebral Bore posted:This would imply that the crossdressers who look like ugly men actually want to look like ugly men, but that doesn't really make sense on any level and the more I'm overthinking this the more confusing it gets.
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Nov 6, 2011 20:39
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