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Redcrimson posted:There's something about One Piece that just doesn't click with the mainstream US audience. gently caress if I know what it is, though. As far as I can tell, it's the art style. People get mad as gently caress when they watch an anime that doesn't have that identical sparkle-eyed CLAMP bishounen look. (I'm not sure why Dragonball gets a pass while One Piece doesn't, since DB/Z/etc's art is worse in every way.) Pretty much the same thing happened to Lupin III.
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Oct 30, 2011 01:15
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I've never understood the hate for Coby either, it can get pretty over the top in fan discussions. Not having uber-powerful cool guy status handed to you immediately by the gods of plot isn't a crime.
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Nov 3, 2011 23:02
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I will never get tired of Franky's shameless attention-whoring. 
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Nov 6, 2011 05:22
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There are times when I feel the joke is at Sanji's expense, and we're meant to laugh at him for being -phobic and freaking out and generally miserable. Just one more way in which he's the resident buttmonkey sometimes, and it's his own drat fault. There are other times that...yeah. mushroom_spore fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Nov 6, 2011 |
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Nov 6, 2011 06:16
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Endorph posted:If the joke was at Sanji's expense, then there'd be at least some people there who weren't horrifically ugly, and the other characters wouldn't react the same way. Probably the best example of something that strikes me as only at Sanji's expense is still a manga spoiler, but yeah you're pretty much right too.  And this episode was definitely not even remotely a "Sanji's expense" thing.That said, I can't complain about the ugly part, I love and prefer Oda's ugly/weird-looking characters, but in-story bashing them for their ugliness appears to be something reserved solely for okamas (okama? is that also plural?) and women. And that's not cool.
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Nov 6, 2011 13:54
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IShallRiseAgain posted:You're forgetting Duval. Wasn't the entire joke only that someone actually looked like Sanji's wanted poster?
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Nov 6, 2011 19:12
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Cerebral Bore posted:This would imply that the crossdressers who look like ugly men actually want to look like ugly men All things considered, half of them could originally have been women. Cerebral Bore posted:Or maybe the message is that it's OK for burly men to dress in dresses and harass homophobes for shits and giggles? I've seen this pulled off epicly, but really, the more I think about it, you need some acknowledgement that that's what the characters are intentionally doing. Otherwise, like this episode, you end up sending a different message entirely. Semi-related, but did anyone get reminded of this news story about cross-dressing cage fighters? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8296190.stm 
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Nov 6, 2011 21:42
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Cerebral Bore posted:But if you're a woman who wants to become a man and you do, why would you wear womens' clothing afterwards? To feel pretty? 
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Nov 6, 2011 23:48
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tsob posted:The eye just got lost while Zoro wasn't looking. While he wasn't looking...at...his eye? I think my brain just exploded. But if anyone could find a way to lose their own eye like that, it'd be Zoro.
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Nov 16, 2011 00:45
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I totally lost it during Franky discovering Caribou in the barrel, the slow lean-in, and Caribou noticing. That awkward lid-lowering bit was amazing.
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Nov 27, 2011 05:21
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I didn't think that scene could get any funnier than it was in the manga. The anime is on a roll lately. Brook adding a bizarre little drumroll while rambling to himself was also pretty great.
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Nov 27, 2011 19:45
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So many great background antics in this episode. The camera angles on Nami's breasts are ridiculous, though.
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Dec 4, 2011 21:46
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Gyges posted:Two years on that island really hosed with his head. This. If you watched that scene and thought it was anything other than a joke about Sanji being stupid, I don't know what to tell you.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:59
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tsob posted:am I the only one not getting bent out of shape about this transgender thing? I just don't think Oda has any bone against them and is playing it for laughs, so I don't see any offense to take. It's like when stand up's make jokes about various races and ethnicities. I don't think they have any actual beef, so I just laugh at the joke and forget it. There's a phrase floating around that I think sums it up well: Intent Is Not Magical. Not ~meaning~ any harm doesn't mean you don't CAUSE harm when you write or say (insert horribly offensive thing here), and you can't wave your good/harmless intentions around as an excuse for not acknowledging or apologizing for the fact that you have hurt someone. You don't have to be a cartoonish racist/homophobe/etc before things you do or say or make jokes about count as -ist. I'm still torn on what I think of the issue in One Piece. I thought it started out a pretty positive representation - weird but positive, because everything in One Piece is weird as hell. Then it grew less and less positive and Sanji's character became increasingly gross and I'm very ready for Oda to stop this now.
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Jan 9, 2012 04:32
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tsob posted:than someone who has shown respect towards them, even if he tells a joke at their expense too. The "joke" here is basically the trans equivalent of "haha, those black people, with their huge lips and their stealing watermelons and going to jail all the time. Am I right? Hilarious!" If you make jokes like that, here's a hint: you don't actually respect the people it's about. If you do respect them, why do you find it funny? Oda didn't pull the stereotype of ugly crossdressers who want to forcibly convert straight men to their ways out of thin air. Real, actual people in real life are frequently hurt or killed or have their rights taken away because other people believe in stereotypes like that. It's not at all comparable to Chris Rock making fun of white people, and I'm not capable of finding it funny.
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Jan 9, 2012 06:08
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tsob posted:The joke seems to be mainly in Sanji's reactions, and not the way transgender/crossdressers look. When we had the last discussion about this, I was still leaning partly towards the joke being at Sanji's expense for being a -phobic jerk too. Some of it is, or can be read that way (most of the blood donors gag) but honestly not much of it. When the okama themselves are portrayed as negative stereotypes, it's not about Sanji's reactions anymore.
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Jan 9, 2012 06:21
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tsob posted:I don't think the joke is "oh look at what a phobic dick Sanji is" His personal tick is that he's horribly traumatized from two years spent running from aggressive trans/gay people who wanted to convert him, and that he finds them so repulsive that he (manga spoiler) gets a powerup from it. That "something he doesn't like" is trans/gay men. His personal tick is being a -phobe. I don't know how else you can read it.
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Jan 9, 2012 06:31
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tsob posted:He's horrified by being fooled (as he sees it) or come on to by men instead of the sexy women he imagines. Which is amazingly textbook trans/homophobia. Not being interested and turning someone down, or whatever, is one thing. This is something else.
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Jan 9, 2012 06:45
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tsob posted:Why aren't you getting offended that he's a pervert that is willing to steal in to showers and spy on the women in them out of interest? ...because it's in no way relevant to a conversation about Oda writing the okama?
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Jan 9, 2012 06:55
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Endorph posted:there are probably a few people who think Sanji is perfectly justified in both being horrified by and wanting to beat the poo poo out of them. No probably about it. I have seen huge numbers of these people. It's depressing. I'm not about to say Oda is a feminist, but there's a very important reason why no, the peeping tom joke is still not relevant to this conversation at all: with the okama, the narrative itself takes Sanji's side. They actually did aggressively pursue him and try to convert him against his will, and dialogue in the Impel Down scene (when another man is forcibly changed against his will) implies that they have a reputation for this. Sanji's reaction to all this "trauma" is treated as comedic and over-the-top but ultimately justified and something we're supposed to sympathize with (aside from brief moments like Usopp scolding him for not thanking the blood donors). Sanji wanting to spy on women is gross and casually laughed off by the narrative (and it doesn't magically become funny when Oda recycles the joke with another character in the manga), but it's not the same dynamic at all. The narrative treats it like no big deal, but it doesn't try to justify it with "women are asking for it with the way they act" or something either.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:21
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tsob posted:I'm just wondering if you feel that no-one should be allowed use them as the butt of any kind of joke until they've become so commonplace in society that no-one will think anything of them being laughed at? When real living people are no longer murdered because people believe that the content of those specific jokes reflects reality, we'll talk.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:34
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tsob posted:That counts out any kind of racial or religious jokes though. Probably for the duration of human society. Sadly. I feel no great sense of loss over not being able to make -ist jokes, personally. (The joke there is that you absolutely ARE able to make all the -ist jokes you want, because after all they're only minorities and much of society will ultimately side with you. It's just a joke, you guys, he didn't ~mean~ any harm when he created a reality in which gay/trans people are a legitimate threat to straight men, lightheartedly reinforcing existing negative stereotypes that hurt actual people every day! Just good clean fun here!) quote:I have no response to that - beyond the gut feeling that Oda doesn't have any hate towards them. You have a gut feeling. We have the actual text. Whether he actively and consciously hates them is irrelevant, because again, intent is not magical. If I am not paying attention while I stomp down the street and end up stomping down on your foot, breaking three of your toes, I don't get a free pass to keep stomping on you over and over again because I didn't ~mean~ to hurt you.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:10
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Himuro posted:Are you basing Oda's opinions off of the manga or the anime? Because this is very important. I think the manga had some lovely moments that the anime made worse and added more of. So both...ish. I know he didn't write the anime filler, but he didn't help matters either.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:16
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tsob posted:I do, because those are some of the best material. Although admittedly, only really when it's pointing out how those -isms are bad in some way. Jokes that point out that -isms are bad are by definition not racist jokes. More to the point, that's irrelevant, because the "joke" here in no way points out that the -ism in question is bad. In fact, One Piece has constructed an elaborate fantasy scenario in which a caricature of the -ism is true and accurate instead. That's the exact opposite of what you're defending. tsob posted:It's the differences that make things interesting after all. Then why are you defending humor that is ANTI-difference? tsob posted:By the same token though, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to walk down the street without staring down at the ground obsessively so as to make sure you never hurt anyone. There is a space between the two extremes, amazingly, where you try to pay a reasonable amount of attention to what you're doing, and if you hurt someone don't respond with "I didn't mean to step on your foot so it doesn't count, you are wrong for pointing out that I stepped on your foot. Foot-steppers are bad people who have a cartoonish, all-encompassing hate of toes, and I'm a good person, so lalalalala" when all they want is for you to get off their drat foot already. Because you are standing on it, whether you intended to or not.  Yes the metaphor is goofy when you think about it too much, but it's the best illustration I've heard yet. I get it, we all like One Piece or we wouldn't be here. We like Oda or we wouldn't be here. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend he and his work both poo poo gold and can do no wrong. tsob posted:More to the point though I suppose would be that I would expect an apology and probably some kind of compensation to pay bills. I think that Oda using them rather postively for a stretch (how long did they appear for?) in Impel Down fits the bill in this over done metaphor Doing it right for a while doesn't build up some kind of credit for time in which you can do it horribly wrong instead and it's okay. This conversation never goes anywhere and I'm tired enough as it is, though, so I think I'm done here. mushroom_spore fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 08:47
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Liar posted:Actually he was. He was REALLY strong. But Luffy's a goddamn monster amongst monsters. This. You have to remember that One Piece readers are getting a very warped view of what passes for a "normal" level of strength in Oda's world. Hell, a lot of the people passing through the first half of the Grand Line probably never even SEE a Shichibukai, while the Straw Hats stumbled into every single possible arc boss in the entire ocean.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:59
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He could probably kick the collective asses of about 90% of the not-the-New-World Grand Line, or at least make a good show of trying. The admirals and Kuma and whoever else could take him, but that's like eleven people. Plus another handful for the Emperors and whoever the stronger people in their crews are (there's no telling how squishy their rookies are, considering that anyone would be a rookie next to Beckman). I'm sure there are some other named characters who could, but the point is that the people yelling "oh my goodness, that Luffy sure is a monster!" and getting their entire army rolled over by Mihawk make up the vast, vast majority of the world's population. I think Arlong would still be considered a bit more than "above average," once you take into account that "average" includes more than that tiny handful of individuals (out of an entire planet) that One Piece focuses on. And I'm not even particularly an Arlong fan.
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Feb 16, 2012 07:22
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Loanarn posted:
While I'm not about to argue that Oda is a feminist or anything, that's a line uttered by a creepy villain and authors are not their characters. Otherwise the existence of Akainu would be far more worrisome than Decken.
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May 6, 2012 20:13
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Really Oda? While less creepy than most anime I expect more from you.
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Purple D. Link posted:I wonder how much longer we'll have to wait to hear Brook in English, and if they'll do him justice. Brook has always struck me as one of the more challenging VA roles, and not just for the singing. It seems to demand a lot more...range, I guess, and Cho is a maniac for pulling it off so flawlessly. That's gonna be a tough act to follow. 
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Jul 29, 2012 00:13
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"d[-.- posted:b" post="407871200"] I'm pretty sure this was a joke, and that the only times that Brook has been shown to *actually* be healed by milk were anime-only filler scenes written by people who didn't realize that it was a joke. In the original Thriller Bark thing, he just announced that he was healed and then immediately fell down again like an idiot. Dukeofdummies posted:Or you could go the pure evil route and just end his will to live somehow... I mean he only has the option to come back, he could choose not to. Someone had the fruit before him so you know death's gotta be possible. He had the option to come back ONCE. If he gets hurt badly enough to die again/completely break his soul's grip on his remains, I'm pretty sure it's game over.
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Sep 24, 2012 23:33
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KoB posted:Sure, but he has to be able to heal somehow, and milk makes perfect One-Piece-world-sense. As far as I can tell he seems to just heal with time and Chopper's help like the rest of the crew. It's the same logic as being able to eat (and poop) just like everyone else does, I guess. 
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Sep 25, 2012 00:49
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Shadow0 posted:Yeah, some of the Supernovas have comparable or higher bounties. I want to know what they did. It'd be nice to see someone else making an affect on the world. I mean Luffy and his crew blew up the Enes Lobby and Impel Down and Luffy fought in the War of the Best... What tops that? Murdering lots of people. I'm pretty sure at least one Supernova outright had their bounty confirmed as being higher for this reason way back during Sabaody.
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Oct 15, 2012 00:28
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Shadow0 posted:what would happen if a human ate the human-human fruit? Actually, Oda answered this specific question in SBS years ago. The person who ate it would become "enlightened."
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Oct 30, 2012 17:09
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