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SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


Hi there! I'm forums user and noted bad poster SoundMonkey, and I guess I'm your new Dorkroom mod. Brad, if you're out there, all the best, and you did a hell of a good job.

Of course, the latest rules thread is from 2009, so…

Critique
Be nice. Well, be as nice as you can be. Some photos are pretty much terrible, but that's probably not a good reason to go on a six-paragraph rant about it. Express your opinion, and move on. If you're needlessly being a dick to someone, bad things might happen. If you're on the receiving end of the critique? Probably the person is critiquing your photograph, not you, so try not to take it too personally. If you feel it's unreasonable, then by all means, report it, but try to actually read the crit before mashing the report button.

Megathreads
Hot drat do I love megathreads. If you're going to post in one, please at least read the first couple pages and the last couple pages, to make sure what you're posting about wasn't either in the OP or recently discussed. And by all means, if you feel that a 250-page thread is getting unreasonably large, and you have a well-thought-out OP, shoot me a PM and maybe we'll start a new one. If you're the OP of a megathread, try to keep up with it, or indicate you're sick of it and let someone else start a new one.

Tiny Overly-Specific Threads
Try to post threads that are interesting to more than a couple people. Did you take a trip to Branson recently? Cool. Maybe start a travel thread, or contribute to an existing one, as opposed to starting a Branson thread. Try to put some thought into the OP and make it accessible to as many people as possible. It's always a good thing when you post a thread that everyone can be interested in. EDIT TO CLARIFY: If you took a trip somewhere and have a shitload of pictures, by all means go hog wild. Similarly, if you're starting a project or something and the thread is tiny but is going to get bigger, that's cool too. Just try to stay away from "Thoughts on the ShadyTech FireHazard9000 EN-EL3e battery charger?".

Selling/Buying/Shilling
Please don't shill your non-gear-related products/services. If you have gear to sell, or if there's gear you want to buy, post in the gear selling thread. If you have a business idea you'd like some feedback on, there's a thread for that too. If you have some novel concept that you're not sure about, send me a PM and we'll see if it's a good idea or not.

Miscellaneous Catch-All Creepy-People Rule
Please don't be creepy or stalk people or anything like that. It really shits up the forum and I'm really likely to probate you for it, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. We're here to talk about photography, nobody cares who you'd have sex with or who you think is a terrible deviant or who actually is a terrible deviant. Do you want to post a thread about relatively-worksafe fetish photography? Run it by me first, but once you post it, anyone who's obviously trying to get in your pants is going to have a really bad day.

Communication
Did you gently caress up your thread title? Did you forget a thread tag? You should probably avoid doing that, but if you did, feel quite free to PM me and I'll fix it at some point. Please don't just post "mod please fix thread tag" in the the thread, because I don't actually read every post of every thread.

Maintenance
Is the a stickied thread that's out of date? Is there a newer version that should be stickied? Let me know. I know the moderation has been a bit slow lately, so if there's something that needs fixing, tell me about it. If you don't have PM, reporting your own thread is an ok way to do this too (just report the OP to make it easier on me).

Suggestions
Now… it just so happens it's almost a brand new year! I'm leaving this thread open for suggestions about how you think Dorkroom could be improved, with specific focus on Photo A Day, which seems to have stagnated somewhat recently. If you have any ideas about how to make Dorkroom better, please post them, but also please don't poo poo up the thread debating other people's ideas too much. I'll probably close this in early January and implement whatever changes sound like a good idea.

The Chill Zone
Some of us like to hang out in #creatives on irc.synirc.net, which is probably the closest thing Dorkroom has to an unofficial IRC channel. Come chat, get your photos critiqued (or made fun of), or just be impaired and belligerent with us. Do note that the forums are generally not the place to discuss things that happen on IRC, although feel quite free to come on IRC and ask me any questions you might have.

Dumb Internet poo poo
Let's just not do macros, memes, ragecomics, dumb catchphrases, etc. I'm pretty sure this is a forums-wide rule but it bears repeating.

Don't Be Horribly Boring
Do not post status updates for your order. Feel quite free to tell us that it arrived and what your first impressions are. Let us know if it's backordered to hell at every place except one. Do not, however, tell us that its tracking status just changed from "In Progress" to "Exception" and you don't know what that means.

:snoop: The Condensed Version: :snoop:
code:
1.   Don't be an rear end in a top hat with critique, and don't get butthurt/mad about negative critique.
1a.  Don't get mad at the internet.
2.   Don't helldump or talk about irc poo poo.
2a.  IRC.  Do not talk about it.  Do not talk about IRC.  IRC is a thing you should not talk about.
3.   Give critique in PAD and don't give it in photo dump thread
4.   Don't be intensely unfunny or stupid or make low-content boring posts (to the point where I actually notice).
5.   Don't be creepy or sexist or racist or any of that poo poo.
6.   Use the drat report button.
7.   Don't shill your own poo poo unless it's legitimately a useful thing to post and you say it's yours.
8.   No loving referral links (including Amazon).
9.   Don't get mad at the internet.
9a.  "You just don't 'get' my art, man." is not an acceptable response to anything.
10.  Don't post SO BADLY that I am actually moved to take time out of my day to do something about it.
11.  Read thread rules before the first time you post in a thread, if applicable.
12.  If you have an issue with me or something I did, contact me privately and I'd be happy to 
     talk about it, don't start massive derails.  If it's a comment or suggestion post it in this thread.
13.  Contacting me:  Email: [email]soundmonkey@somethingawful.com[/email], AIM: sasoundmonkey, IRC (see above), PM.
14.  Max image size is 1024 pixels long-side.
15.  Do not link to stuff on reddit because reddit is universally terrible.
16.  Don't PM me about rule 15.
17.  Rule 17 doesn't exist.
18.  In this day and age, the term 'hipster' is not representative of any specific cultural group, manner of dress, 
     or style of photography.  As such, using it as a blanket term is really stupid and you really shouldn't do it.
18a. The word "hipster" is not banned, just its use as a reason to hate or dismiss someone's work or person or clothing/camera/etc choice.  Don't be a dumb.
19.  No page snyping outside of the best thread and the chat thread.  Also no emptyquoting outside of those threads, unless it's hilarious, as determined by me.
20.  No being incredibly pedantic and smug about crop factors with your "oh it's not REALLY 50mm, :smug:" bullshit. Yes. It really is 50mm. 
     Learn what field of view means.
21.  Do not loving post What The Duck comics.  They are terrible.  Posting this will get you a week off.
22.  Do not post in Dorkroom if you are one of the following people (or a namechange of any of them): vendagoat
36.  No whining about being poor to the point where it's annoying.
Thanks, people of Dorkroom! As always, if you want to chat, you can PM me, e-mail me, or ideally, find me in #creatives on irc.synirc.net.

EDIT FOR IMPORTANT THINGS: Don't be afraid of the report button. If you see a lovely post and it breaks or nudges some rule, just mash report. It takes me almost no time to review a report and deal with it, it's not like I'm going to get mad that you hit report or something.

Of course don't make total bullshit reports though.

MORE EDIT: You can also AIM me if you have a question/concern/belligerent drunk-rant, sasoundmonkey

SO MUCH EDITING: Additionally you can e-mail me at soundmonkey@somethingawful.com.

also there's a discord i guess https://discord.gg/98XxqMB

SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Dec 10, 2020

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Dread Head
Aug 1, 2005

0-#01
I know you mentioned selling stuff but I could possibly see having a thread that people could list (non gear) stuff they are selling. I think there are a number of people who sell prints etc. If we kept it to one thread it would not be disrupting other threads and people who are interested in buying or selling work etc have a place to do so.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


Dread Head posted:

I know you mentioned selling stuff but I could possibly see having a thread that people could list (non gear) stuff they are selling. I think there are a number of people who sell prints etc. If we kept it to one thread it would not be disrupting other threads and people who are interested in buying or selling work etc have a place to do so.

Did you have categories in mind? I can see a couple different threads for selling stuff, but a "everything but gear" thread might get a bit jumbled.

Dread Head
Aug 1, 2005

0-#01

SoundMonkey posted:

Did you have categories in mind? I can see a couple different threads for selling stuff, but a "everything but gear" thread might get a bit jumbled.

The only real thing that had come to mind was prints really but if there are other things I could see it being broken out. I think you may have to see how much traffic its gets to see if we need multiple threads.

365 Nog Hogger
Jan 19, 2008

by Shine

Dread Head posted:

The only real thing that had come to mind was prints really but if there are other things I could see it being broken out. I think you may have to see how much traffic its gets to see if we need multiple threads.

Not selling related directly, but I would love to trade photobooks with people. They're expensive, but looking at amazing art is something everyone can do more of.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


Reichstag posted:

Not selling related directly, but I would love to trade photobooks with people. They're expensive, but looking at amazing art is something everyone can do more of.

If you want to start a photobook-trading thread, I think that'd be a great idea. You'd probably want to outline the potential risk involved though (ie you send some dude a $40 photobook, and might get nothing back). It'd be a great way to present more of a sort of collection of work that just a single print though.

EDIT: And by 'trading' I mean 'no money or other commodity except books of photos changes hands'. If someone really likes someone else's work, they could buy it off them in a print-selling thread just to keep it simple.

SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Dec 21, 2011

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


This is more of a suggestion and encouragement than a rule...

Project Threads
I think it'd be really cool to see ongoing project threads. The forum's not so busy that they're going to get blasted off page 1 in five minutes, and it's be neat to see someone develop an idea and see their progress and everyone else's feedback and stuff.

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

Can we have a stupid questions thread. Although that probably won't help as the people who ask stupid questions seem to have selective illiteracy.

TheLastManStanding
Jan 14, 2008
Mash Buttons!
We have a general questions thread and a newbie 'my first dslr' thread, both of which kind of cover stupid questions.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


Paragon8 posted:

Can we have a stupid questions thread. Although that probably won't help as the people who ask stupid questions seem to have selective illiteracy.

I thought you were kidding for a second, but GWS's "Stupid/Small Questions" thread actually does pretty well. What kind of thing were you thinking of that would make it different from the general questions thread? Just like, questions so small/dumb that they'd get lost/poo poo on in the main thread, like "why is 'Tv' used to mean shutter priority"?

Paragon8
Feb 19, 2007

Yeah, I think that might be good. I was meaning more the occasional person who'll just stumble into the canon thread and ask about point and shoots while ignoring the P&S thread. But a thread where it's safe to just ask one liner questions might be good for stuff that might get ignored in the bigger threads.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


Paragon8 posted:

Yeah, I think that might be good. I was meaning more the occasional person who'll just stumble into the canon thread and ask about point and shoots while ignoring the P&S thread. But a thread where it's safe to just ask one liner questions might be good for stuff that might get ignored in the bigger threads.

I agree in principle - there's probably a subset of people who show up here but either don't know enough to even say anything in the questions thread, or have no intention of getting a DSLR so they don't post in the newbie DSLR thread. If a thread like this were to exist, I'd figure the OP would want to have links to other threads where certain questions might be more appropriate to ask (ie, P&S thread, Newbie DSLR thread, etc), but that oneliner questions that don't fit anywhere else are welcome.

So yeah, we can have that thread if you want to post it. If nobody posts in it, I guess nature will take its course and it'll drift gently onto page 2, but I don't see any reason you couldn't give it a shot.

Paul MaudDib
May 3, 2006

TEAM NVIDIA:
FORUM POLICE
No one reads the OPs anyway. Every single page in the film thread, someone comes in and is like "Hey so do any of you guys scan and develop your own film? How do I do that?" despite the FAQs on the first page, and the fact that if they read back even 2 pages they'd find someone asking the exact same question. Same thing in the camera gear thread, every page someone asks what lens they should get after the kit and the 50mm/35mm lenses despite the fact that the Tamron 17-50 is in the loving title.

I don't really have a solution, it doesn't seem worth banning people over innocent questions in a hobby subforum and it's nice to have at least some traffic, but it does get annoying to see the same questions over and over when people obviously aren't even reading the OP.

Niagalack
Aug 29, 2007

No half measure.

Paul MaudDib posted:

No one reads the OPs anyway. Every single page in the film thread, someone comes in and is like "Hey so do any of you guys scan and develop your own film? How do I do that?" despite the FAQs on the first page, and the fact that if they read back even 2 pages they'd find someone asking the exact same question. Same thing in the camera gear thread, every page someone asks what lens they should get after the kit and the 50mm/35mm lenses despite the fact that the Tamron 17-50 is in the loving title.

I don't really have a solution, it doesn't seem worth banning people over innocent questions in a hobby subforum and it's nice to have at least some traffic, but it does get annoying to see the same questions over and over when people obviously aren't even reading the OP.

There used to have the same problem in AI. People would come down and ask about how their car broke down and how to repair it...

Mannequin
Mar 8, 2003
One thing I wish is that the Snapshot thread was a place to dump what the poster thinks are essentially thoughtless/throwaway type pictures, and that we went back to a more critique-oriented forum in PAD. Before SAD there really was a monthly PAD thread that we all posted in. If you have access to the archives you can dig up those old threads and see how we were critiquing more and talking more about each other's photographs, which is a better type of format in my opinion. I really hate being the author of this snapshot thread where everyone posts and no one necessarily discusses photography. It seems that because there's a reason not to critique, people don't. And I think we all like it when people comment on our photos, good or bad, because it shows that they're worth talking about. Sometimes there is critique in the Snapshot thread, other times there is an outpouring of love for one particular photo or photographer, but most of the time there's just silence. It's a shame. And I am one of the guilty parties, I don't speak out enough and critique enough, and sometimes I don't do it because I don't feel like it, or I'm tired, and other times I question the value of my own opinions. Who am I to give a critique? Am I worthy of being critical about somebody's photo? I think these are questions many of us ask ourselves.

I don't know if this is a problem that can be fixed short of nixing the SAD thread and enforcing critique in the PAD thread. All the snapshots could theoretically go in their rightful mega threads -- the pet thread, the portrait thread (if it's an insignificant portrait not really worthy of a detailed critique), the film thread, etc. I don't know, maybe all this is a bad idea, but I just hate how there's very little discussion in SAD.

Bob Socko
Feb 20, 2001

I agree that the photo critique could/should be improved, but I'm a little hesitant about getting rid of SAD altogether. Some of the critiques in PAD can be absolutely brutal, and it's a little daunting to the layperson. What about enforcing a critique rule in both, but the SAD rules are looser/gentler? I dunno, just tossing out an idea.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


^^^ I wasn't considering getting rid of SAD altogether, but it does seem like both threads need a little retooling. They're pretty important, I mean, posting photos is a huge part of the reason we're all here.


Mannequin posted:

One thing I wish is that the Snapshot thread was a place to dump what the poster thinks are essentially thoughtless/throwaway type pictures, and that we went back to a more critique-oriented forum in PAD. Before SAD there really was a monthly PAD thread that we all posted in. If you have access to the archives you can dig up those old threads and see how we were critiquing more and talking more about each other's photographs, which is a better type of format in my opinion. I really hate being the author of this snapshot thread where everyone posts and no one necessarily discusses photography. It seems that because there's a reason not to critique, people don't. And I think we all like it when people comment on our photos, good or bad, because it shows that they're worth talking about. Sometimes there is critique in the Snapshot thread, other times there is an outpouring of love for one particular photo or photographer, but most of the time there's just silence. It's a shame. And I am one of the guilty parties, I don't speak out enough and critique enough, and sometimes I don't do it because I don't feel like it, or I'm tired, and other times I question the value of my own opinions. Who am I to give a critique? Am I worthy of being critical about somebody's photo? I think these are questions many of us ask ourselves.

I don't know if this is a problem that can be fixed short of nixing the SAD thread and enforcing critique in the PAD thread. All the snapshots could theoretically go in their rightful mega threads -- the pet thread, the portrait thread (if it's an insignificant portrait not really worthy of a detailed critique), the film thread, etc. I don't know, maybe all this is a bad idea, but I just hate how there's very little discussion in SAD.

Those are actually two threads I was trying to come up with ideas for. While I'm a huge fan of critique, the current PAD rules seem to have drastically reduced how many people post, although the critique that is there is generally really good. What would you say to making SAD monthly, with critique "very strongly encouraged", and relaxing the PAD crit requirements slightly? I think both threads fill different but important niches (even back in the day, PAD could be a bit daunting for newbies), but it seems like SAD sees more posts just due to being "easier".

I'd hope that we could get something like GWS's Iron Chef / Newbie Iron Chef thing going on - everyone welcome in both, but if you're doing really well in one, there's some encouragement to move to the other.

In the meantime, I'd be in favor of encouraging especially good SAD posters to try their hand in PAD. I can't think of concrete new rules as yet, but for the time being, I'm pretty unlikely to probate someone for "low quality" crit (although do at least say SOMETHING). If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Dec 28, 2011

nonanone
Oct 25, 2007


The problem I have is, what if you want to share your general stuff and see other people's stuff but you don't want to critique or get critiqued? I like SAD because I can flip through lots of cool photos without having to think critically, and I can post without having my work critiqued, which sometimes I find helpful, but mostly I find isn't helpful at all and is often just asking me to adhere to certain photography "rules". That's why I don't post in PAD anyways. If there's something someone feels really strongly about they'll post it in SAD anyways.

I know part of the problem is that everyone wants their work critiqued and doesn't want to critique (although I am the opposite). Maybe a thread where once a week or once a month one user's photo or set of photos is critiqued by everyone? I think dorkroom is small enough that that could work, allow for a good rotation and ensure each person who signs up gets tons of critique.

Dread Head
Aug 1, 2005

0-#01
I think what was nice about the old PAD was not even the critiques but that there was some discussion around the photos. It seems like SAD is just a place to dump photos which can serve a purpose but it is not really a great way to improve your work. What was cool about PAD was that it encouraged discussions about photos such as why someone did that or how they did it. It seems like the only "discussion" in SAD is along the lines of "nice photo" which is fine but it does not really promote growth. I think if the rules in PAD were scaled back and made it a bit more open (IE not a mandatory critique) then things may change.

Edit: nonanone, there is no reason that I can see why people could not post a thread asking for crit (I think there has been the odd one), I think for most people this is not really ideal unless you are working on a series or a larger body or work. I find that for my self I usually dont end up posting more than 3 photos from a days worth of shooting but it depends I guess.

Dread Head fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Dec 28, 2011

AIIAZNSK8ER
Dec 8, 2008


Where is your 24-70?
The PAD/SAD thing has been going on since Dorkroom opened up. The problem is that I feel lazy along with other people. It's easy to dump a picture to SAD, if it hits a chord then you get some praise. There's no downside to posting in SAD for the average poster.

What if PAD just became a critique thread for anyone to post individual photos and our little Dorkroom community tries it's hardest to give them good feedback. To keep it from being too spammy, it should be limited to one image at a time or a series of 3-5 which tell a story or have a reason behind multiple images. Posting does not require critique because those that need the most help often don't know where to start. Have a warning to not take critique personally, be brave, and have an open mind.

Posters should be encouraged to post whatever they feel like. They should not be afraid to post point and shoot beaches or HDR tone mapped rusty trucks. Everyone starts there, so we should just welcome as many people as possible, then show them a better way to produce images.

quazi
Apr 19, 2002

data control
How about this?

Rename SAD to "Dorkroom Image Dump". You can't post any text, except photo titles or flickr captions. You could reply to a post, but only with another photo. If you just want to say "cool photo, bro!", go to flickr and add it to favorites. (I think that's the "cool photo bro" button.)

If somebody wants to sit down and construct a critique for a photo -- even if it's in SAD, put it in PAD.

PAD wouldn't absolutely require people to critique, but it would require all posts to "further the discussion" -- you can interpret that however you like. Don't require anybody to post in five-paragraph essay format; but don't let anybody come in, dump a mess of photos, and bail. PAD should exist somewhere between those two extremes.

SoundMonkey posted:

I'd hope that we could get something like GWS's Iron Chef / Newbie Iron Chef thing going on - everyone welcome in both, but if you're doing really well in one, there's some encouragement to move to the other.
I don't know. There's something fun about seeing the beginners and seasoned pros all mixed up in the same thread.

Dread Head
Aug 1, 2005

0-#01

quazi posted:


I don't know. There's something fun about seeing the beginners and seasoned pros all mixed up in the same thread.

While it is nice I think it can be really daunting for someone who just got a camera to post after someone who has been shooting for a while.

Niagalack
Aug 29, 2007

No half measure.

Dread Head posted:

While it is nice I think it can be really daunting for someone who just got a camera to post after someone who has been shooting for a while.

Yes it is , I felt small in my short the first time I posted in PAD. But I did anyway waiting for the storm to hit me. I am glad that I have because I received objective criticism.

krackmonkey
Mar 28, 2003

when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...
Maybe the thing to fix PAD would be to loosen the critique requirements to include self-critique as an acceptable contribution. That way people who weren't comfortable nitpicking someone elses' work or felt like what they had to say had already been said could at least justify what they liked or didn't quite like about their own images at the very least. People who wanted to discuss would still do so as compelled, but it wouldn't create the initial high cost of entry where it felt like the safer choice was just to toss something obviously not a snapshot into SAD just because they didn't want to muddy the waters.

I know I worked really hard on trying to improve my abilities to make images worthy of PAD, and right about the time I feel like I'm getting closer to justifying contributing to that thread, it seems to have died out.

Likewise, SAD is updated so frequently that it seems like great shots go by so fast that it's very easy to miss out or get caught up in the crush of the newest hotness that there isn't much time for a worthy image to get the attention it deserves.

On one hand, it's a nice conceit that even our snapshots are works of loving art, we all know the reality is that most of what we've tossed into SAD lately took actual tme and effort and wouldn't really pass muster as a true snapshot, were it not for the convenience of being able to do so.

King Hotpants
Apr 11, 2005

Clint.
Fucking.
Eastwood.

Dread Head posted:

I think what was nice about the old PAD was not even the critiques but that there was some discussion around the photos. It seems like SAD is just a place to dump photos which can serve a purpose but it is not really a great way to improve your work. What was cool about PAD was that it encouraged discussions about photos such as why someone did that or how they did it. It seems like the only "discussion" in SAD is along the lines of "nice photo" which is fine but it does not really promote growth. I think if the rules in PAD were scaled back and made it a bit more open (IE not a mandatory critique) then things may change.

I think you pretty much nailed it.

The issue is that the people who need critique the most don't feel that they are qualified to give it, which discourages them from posting in PAD. On the other hand, some of the Dorkroom's best photographers only post in SAD either because they don't need/want critique or because they don't feel like giving it every time they post a picture -- they just want to share something cool. So you get the people best able to give critique posting in the non-critique thread and the people most in need of critique, who could really benefit from the experience of the better established guys, just kind of bouncing things off of each other.

In a perfect world, you'd be able to somehow force people to give crit, but I think we can all see that it's not working out that way. Instead, you end up with a PAD thread that barely gets any activity, to the point where it's not even a monthly thread anymore. Conversely, you get people posting photos in SAD that are in no way "snapshots."

My suggestion, for what it's worth, would be to restart the threads such that SAD is really about snapshots and PAD is about more thoughtful, considered work. Critique is encouraged in PAD but not mandatory. While this doesn't fix the "nobody wants to critique" problem, it at least stops discouraging people from posting in PAD.

quazi posted:

Rename SAD to "Dorkroom Image Dump". You can't post any text, except photo titles or flickr captions. You could reply to a post, but only with another photo. If you just want to say "cool photo, bro!", go to flickr and add it to favorites. (I think that's the "cool photo bro" button.)

I like the idea about changing the names of the threads - maybe something like Daily Photo Dump and Serious Photo Discussion, or something like that. I don't like those names, but you get the idea. The point is one thread is for "hey look what I took today" and the other is for discussion. Again, critique not mandatory, but the Serious thread should encourage discussion, even if that discussion is "I really enjoy this; how did you do it?"

I don't think you ever want to discourage discussion. The Dorkroom is small and pretty tight-knit, and I don't think a bit of discussion in an image dump thread would run it off the rails.

CarrotFlowers
Dec 17, 2010

Blerg.

King Hotpants posted:

I think you pretty much nailed it.

The issue is that the people who need critique the most don't feel that they are qualified to give it, which discourages them from posting in PAD. On the other hand, some of the Dorkroom's best photographers only post in SAD either because they don't need/want critique or because they don't feel like giving it every time they post a picture -- they just want to share something cool. So you get the people best able to give critique posting in the non-critique thread and the people most in need of critique, who could really benefit from the experience of the better established guys, just kind of bouncing things off of each other.

In a perfect world, you'd be able to somehow force people to give crit, but I think we can all see that it's not working out that way. Instead, you end up with a PAD thread that barely gets any activity, to the point where it's not even a monthly thread anymore. Conversely, you get people posting photos in SAD that are in no way "snapshots."

My suggestion, for what it's worth, would be to restart the threads such that SAD is really about snapshots and PAD is about more thoughtful, considered work. Critique is encouraged in PAD but not mandatory. While this doesn't fix the "nobody wants to critique" problem, it at least stops discouraging people from posting in PAD.


I like the idea about changing the names of the threads - maybe something like Daily Photo Dump and Serious Photo Discussion, or something like that. I don't like those names, but you get the idea. The point is one thread is for "hey look what I took today" and the other is for discussion. Again, critique not mandatory, but the Serious thread should encourage discussion, even if that discussion is "I really enjoy this; how did you do it?"

I don't think you ever want to discourage discussion. The Dorkroom is small and pretty tight-knit, and I don't think a bit of discussion in an image dump thread would run it off the rails.

I think this is the best idea so far. As was already pointed out, the biggest thing about PAD failing is that the people who know photography and know what will improve a photo rarely post there, and instead post almost soley in SAD or the respective type of photo thread (Portraits, bands, etc). PAD right now is a place for new photographers to say "I'm new at this, but this is what I would do..." which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it gets them thinking, but it's not ideal because it's like a bunch of blind people feeling in the dark and bumping into eachother. Eventually they will get somewhere, but it'd be nice to have some actual guidance from an experienced photographer.

Having mandatory critiques in PAD and having SAD as an image dump only (no text) would cut out a whole lot of discussion, and I think what might happen is we get even less traffic than we do now. I like the idea of just encouraging discussion, not neccessarily hard critiques, and maybe the new PAD should have a strongly encouraged text rule, instead of mandatory critique. Even if it's just "I like this photo" or something really simple. I also like the idea of being able to critique your own photos counting as a critique, because as long as it's a well thought out critique, why shouldn't it? Thay way we avoid the obvious "I have to write something so uhh, I would crop it differently" responses about other people's work that we currently see in PAD.

I'm as bad as any for not posting in PAD for many reasons. I loved what it was, and I tried to be active in it, but it is a lot of work to actively critique many photos, and not really get so many responses on your own. I found my work was overlooked often in PAD, and I resorted to SAD because it's a good indication of whether someone likes it or not. If it gets a lot of negative comments, clearly it's something I need to work on; if it's overlooked, I assume it is boring; and if it gets positive comments then I know it stood out from the crowd. So while SAD may not be the place for critique, there is a lot you can infer from how people respond to your photos, even if critique isn't mandatory there.

SAD has also evolved into a place where if you post an actual technically imperfect snapshot, people rip it apart. SAD is the new PAD without the mandatory critiques already, so we might as well start over and have one thread for 'serious, I tried on this photo' photos, and another thread for honest snapshots that people should actually be discouraged from critiquing in.

TheLastManStanding
Jan 14, 2008
Mash Buttons!

krackmonkey posted:

Maybe the thing to fix PAD would be to loosen the critique requirements to include self-critique as an acceptable contribution. That way people who weren't comfortable nitpicking someone elses' work or felt like what they had to say had already been said could at least justify what they liked or didn't quite like about their own images at the very least. People who wanted to discuss would still do so as compelled, but it wouldn't create the initial high cost of entry where it felt like the safer choice was just to toss something obviously not a snapshot into SAD just because they didn't want to muddy the waters.
I actually added that to the rules in PAD two months ago... and then failed to copy that part over in the newest thread :ughh:

I guess I'll go fix it...

William T. Hornaday
Nov 26, 2007

Don't tap on the fucking glass!
I swear to god I'll cut off your fucking fingers and feed them to the otters for enrichment.

krackmonkey posted:

Maybe the thing to fix PAD would be to loosen the critique requirements to include self-critique as an acceptable contribution. That way people who weren't comfortable nitpicking someone elses' work or felt like what they had to say had already been said could at least justify what they liked or didn't quite like about their own images at the very least. People who wanted to discuss would still do so as compelled, but it wouldn't create the initial high cost of entry where it felt like the safer choice was just to toss something obviously not a snapshot into SAD just because they didn't want to muddy the waters.

I really like this suggestion, as it pretty much explains why I haven't posted in PAD in forever.

East Lake
Sep 13, 2007

I like King Hotpants ideas. SAD is sort of like a Dorkroom tumblr/black hole sucking the life out of every other thread. Dozens of landscapes go by in SAD before one is posted in the landscape thread. Generally it seems people are more likely to talk about technique and whatnot in themed threads like portraits or landscapes but they sit unused since nearly everything is funneled into SAD. Snapshot or not.

I wouldn't mind seeing what King Hotpants said + increased themed threads activity.

PAD - Critique encouraged/serious photo thread
SAD - Actual Snapshots
Theme threads for the rest. Portrait/long exposure/landscape/whatever. Some of these can be consolidated to make the topic wider and the thread more active. Like landscape/cityscape or something. There's plenty of those being posted.

Also wouldn't mind seeing a hate thread. Where people post their photos and everyone else explains how it sucks no matter how good it is. Somewhere to post terrible rants. :pseudo:

I mainly lurk these days because of school so take what I say with a grain of salt but I do feel people post in SAD because it has become THE PLACE to show off your stuff and there's no way to redirect some of that activity without reworking it. Reworking it might decrease overall forum activity for a while as well but I don't think there's any way around it.

East Lake fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 28, 2011

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


There are a lot of great ideas here, especially from hotpants. What I'm seeing seems to boil down to this:

SAD: post photos that don't easily fit into a themed thread, or that you'd just like people to see. People are absolutely free to comment on them if they like, but it's not required. Also a place for photos that maybe weren't that great but turned out to have some interesting feature, etc. Posters are encouraged to cross-post to PAD if the critique gets serious.

PAD: post photos that you think are a good example of your work, from newbie to professional, with the desire that other people comment on the photo and suggest improvements / ask questions. Again, critique of other photos is not mandatory, but at least some kind of text is - even if it's just you explaining what you were going for, why it did or didn't work, etc. Critique is generally expected to be at least constructive. There should probably be a rule against "go back to SAD".

(experimental) Tear Me A New One: You post photos that you believe are your best work, with the expectation that people will tear into them and your poo poo will be thrown to the dogs. Critique may (and probably should) tend towards the harsh, but anything short of calling your mother a whore is probably okay. Nobody should really be too upset, because hey, you chose to post in the thread, and sometimes you really do need to hear a non-niced-up opinion of your work.

It would end up as sort of a three-tiered thing, with a no-holds-barred portfolio-review style thread occupying the space where PAD currently is, and PAD being the middle-ground between that and cat pix.

The themed threads seem to be doing really well as-is, though.

Thoughts?

East Lake
Sep 13, 2007

Yeah the themed threads are doing ok. I feel like they'd be thriving if most SAD posters used them more though. For the Tear Me A New One thread (good name!) I was thinking it would be the place to be be an elitist dope. Sort of a non-serious hate thread like the post terrible photographers thread but with our stuff. I think it would conflict with PAD a bit if it was serious critique oriented. But really I or any other Dorkroomer can start up a thread like that anytime. King Hotpants' ideas are the most important.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


East Lake posted:

Yeah the themed threads are doing ok. I feel like they'd be thriving if most SAD posters used them more though. For the Tear Me A New One thread (good name!) I was thinking it would be the place to be be an elitist dope. Sort of a non-serious hate thread like the post terrible photographers thread but with our stuff. I think it would conflict with PAD a bit if it was serious critique oriented. But really I or any other Dorkroomer can start up a thread like that anytime. King Hotpants' ideas are the most important.

Yeah, the hate thread could be a humorous sort of thing wherein you post some picture of yours, and get poo poo like "what the gently caress is that, a three-legged dog pissing on anthony hopkins? at least it's in focus this time". Sometimes everyone's gotta vent a little, and it tends to help people be nice in other threads. Everyone has a lot of poo poo they're not proud of, and at least it could be used for the entertainment of others, all in good fun.

The question now is... rules. I think the guidelines people have come up with are great, but there's nothing really enforceable. Not that there necessarily NEEDS to be, it's not like I want to spend half my day dealing with reports, but if there's some kind of post in SAD or PAD that you think should actually be prohibited, now would be the time to speak up. Obviously all the standard forum rules still apply to everything (table breaking, 4chanism, being a belligerent drunk/high cocknuckle, etc).

I'm also very open to people encouraging picture-taking by whatever means necessary. You got a lovely old rangefinder you don't want? Post a thread asking people to submit their best (some kind of photo), give it away as a prize. Little mini-photo-contest things are just as fun, and I may well kick this off myself when I get back home.

King Hotpants
Apr 11, 2005

Clint.
Fucking.
Eastwood.

East Lake posted:

Yeah the themed threads are doing ok. I feel like they'd be thriving if most SAD posters used them more though.

The themed threads are already a great resource when someone needs specific technique advice for that kind of photo. I get that you're saying that people don't post their photos in there, but I don't think they need to in order for those threads to be successful.

Just as an example, the bird thread starts off with a great technical primer and is mostly focused on giving advice to people who want to take pictures of birds. However, once someone takes a photo of a bird that they're proud of, there's no reason they shouldn't put that in SAD or PAD -- they want to know whether it's a good photo, not just if it's a good photo of a bird. SAD and PAD provide the biggest audience and thus the highest chance of useful feedback, so people post there the most. It's a bit of a feedback loop but it works.

Basically, if everyone cross-posted every theme thread photo to SAD or PAD, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. They serve different purposes.

SoundMonkey posted:

The question now is... rules. I think the guidelines people have come up with are great, but there's nothing really enforceable. Not that there necessarily NEEDS to be, it's not like I want to spend half my day dealing with reports, but if there's some kind of post in SAD or PAD that you think should actually be prohibited, now would be the time to speak up. Obviously all the standard forum rules still apply to everything (table breaking, 4chanism, being a belligerent drunk/high cocknuckle, etc).

I don't know if we need any hard-and-fast rules to make this work. I think the existing rules about high-volume photo posting are not bad, but could be loosened a bit. If you have a series of seven photos that absolutely must be shown together, you should be able to put that in PAD, but I think anyone posting over three at a time should have a compelling reason for doing so. The people around here aren't dumb and it ought to be pretty obvious when someone is abusing the privilege and/or spamming their poo poo. At that point someone can punch the report button.

You don't even have to phrase this negatively: just point out in the OP that fewer pictures will lead to more focused, more useful critique. It's easier to go in-depth on a photo when there's only one photo to think about.

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


:siren:NEW POLICIES:siren:

Snapshot A Day: This is now for photos that don't fit in themed threads, or are some photo you thought would be poo poo, but turned out ok, that you didn't really feel was worthy of posting anywhere else. It is NOT for photos that you don't want to post in PAD because you don't think you're good enough. Everyone is good enough to post in PAD. Bad things will happen if: you're a dick to someone needlessly, spam a huge number of low-content photos, or generally discourage people from posting photos. Mannequin, if you'd like to write a new OP and start a new thread, I'll lock the old one whenever. Whether or not this is monthly is up to you, we'll see how much volume it gets.

Photo A Day: I'd like to see this be monthly again at some point, but until people get used to it, the current format will probably work. This is now for photos where you have put some thought into the photograph, regardless of your skill level ("I thought the tree looked good on the side of the frame line that" is fine), and a place where you are strongly encouraged, although not required, to give critique to other photos. This is for photographers of all skill levels who would like the feedback of other photographers on their work. TheLastManStanding, you could either edit the OP or start a new thread, whichever. Bad things will happen if: you post angry belligerent critique, post a bunch of low-effort photos, post more than 3 without having a good reason for it, or generally harm the level of discussion in the thread.

Mystery Science Dorkroom 3000: This is a thread wherein you post your terrible fuckups, and people make fun of them in a humorous fashion. We all have lovely pictures that didn't work out, and now they can be entertaining to others. East Lake, you wanna start this one? Or if East Lake is busy, anyone else feel free to go nuts. Basically you can just go and make fun of photos people post, and anyone posting a photo is gonna have to accept it as all in good fun, because hey, they posted the photo. Bad things will happen if: you post a photo that isn't yours, you abuse a person instead of a photo, or if you have no sense of humor and get all internet hurt over some jokes. Anyone posting in this thread should know that people are going to make fun of their work.

That cover it?

SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Dec 29, 2011

East Lake
Sep 13, 2007

King Hotpants posted:

The themed threads are already a great resource when someone needs specific technique advice for that kind of photo. I get that you're saying that people don't post their photos in there, but I don't think they need to in order for those threads to be successful.

Just as an example, the bird thread starts off with a great technical primer and is mostly focused on giving advice to people who want to take pictures of birds. However, once someone takes a photo of a bird that they're proud of, there's no reason they shouldn't put that in SAD or PAD -- they want to know whether it's a good photo, not just if it's a good photo of a bird. SAD and PAD provide the biggest audience and thus the highest chance of useful feedback, so people post there the most. It's a bit of a feedback loop but it works.

Basically, if everyone cross-posted every theme thread photo to SAD or PAD, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. They serve different purposes.


I don't know if we need any hard-and-fast rules to make this work. I think the existing rules about high-volume photo posting are not bad, but could be loosened a bit. If you have a series of seven photos that absolutely must be shown together, you should be able to put that in PAD, but I think anyone posting over three at a time should have a compelling reason for doing so. The people around here aren't dumb and it ought to be pretty obvious when someone is abusing the privilege and/or spamming their poo poo. At that point someone can punch the report button.

You don't even have to phrase this negatively: just point out in the OP that fewer pictures will lead to more focused, more useful critique. It's easier to go in-depth on a photo when there's only one photo to think about.
I guess I just feel like the themed threads are a lot less active than I wish they were since they do seem to generate a bit more discussion. I will say though that people post in the places they do because that's where they like to post and as much as I'd like to see it change I wouldn't want everything changed so quickly it alienates people posting here. A really active PAD would be awesome though.

I do wonder if many will migrate to PAD if SAD is remade primarily for snapshots. Most of us rarely post snapshots. Just encouraging people like you mentioned would be a good start though.

nonanone
Oct 25, 2007


I've always been bothered by idea that some photos are considered "too good" to post in the snapshot thread. I figure, if I go on a photowalk for fun and take snapshots it should go in the snapshot thread right? And projects/tests/etc should go in PAD? Or is that everything "good" needs to go in PAD (even if you don't want critique) and only bad snapshots/cat pics should go in SAD?

Because I kind of just want to dump photos to share with people, though I don't mind writing a bit about technique and thoughts each time, I don't want to have to (or be strongly encouraged to) get critique on any ol' snapshot. What determines what's good enough that it should go in PAD?

SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


nonanone posted:

Because I kind of just want to dump photos to share with people, though I don't mind writing a bit about technique and thoughts each time, I don't want to have to (or be strongly encouraged to) get critique on any ol' snapshot. What determines what's good enough that it should go in PAD?

To put it simply? Whether or not you'd like other people to give serious consideration/critique to it. There's nothing saying you can't explain your snapshot a bit, or discuss it, just that in SAD, you shouldn't really be expecting critique.

EDIT: To clarify, you could post the exact same photo in PAD and in SAD, and the difference would be what you expect to get back out of it, and how seriously you take the photo. I don't think there's a "bar" as far as quality goes, although if a bunch of people found a photo posted in PAD to be of what they considered to be low quality, their critique would probably reflect that.

SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Dec 29, 2011

nonanone
Oct 25, 2007


Ok, thanks for the clarification :)

East Lake
Sep 13, 2007

SoundMonkey posted:

Snapshot A Day: This is now for photos that don't fit in themed threads,
Probably just axe this theme thread stuff and then you're good. Reworking SAD/PAD should be fine for now. I'm probably the only dude clamoring for theme thread stuff and I can increase activity by posting in theme threads! :downs:

I'm definitely going to do an MSD3K though when I get around to it.

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SoundMonkey
Apr 22, 2006

I just push buttons.


East Lake posted:

Probably just axe this theme thread stuff and then you're good. Reworking SAD/PAD should be fine for now. I'm probably the only dude clamoring for theme thread stuff and I can increase activity by posting in theme threads! :downs:

I'm definitely going to do an MSD3K though when I get around to it.

The theme threads are great, people should just be less afraid to post in them. And hell, it's not like there's a rule that you can only post a photo in one thread. Sometimes you want critique from the world at large, sometimes you want critique from people who shoot the same kind of thing you do. The theme threads don't seem to be a big issue though, they're doing fine on their own as-is.

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