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You have no idea how much I wish this was possible. EDIT: A shameful snype.
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May 25, 2012 07:13
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SoundMonkey posted:I'm not even sure I have enough buttons to properly respond to a thread like that. Post some hdr photos you took bro. honestly bring back some place for us to dump horrible photos we took so we can laugh at each others bad ideas and debate why its art. Wait, we have a dorkroom flickr group?
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May 25, 2012 18:16
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Petition to bring back Snapshot A Day (or something like it). Why? Because this forum needs it. As far as I can tell, forum participation is down. I see fewer and fewer posts in PAD, when there used to be 20+ new posts in SAD every day. PAD discourages participation: it requires a much higher level of output in order to take part. One must read and analyze and submit. It is not a casual activity. It also encourages some kind of formal level of photography that totally kills all the dynamism and interest in taking your camera out and taking pictures (not to mention that I think that "formal level" is totally self imposed, ridiculous and incorrect). There was a poster recently who scoffed at having "snapshots" in the thread, and I think that's awful. Photography is not only about your overly composed photos, your photos that you think somehow "qualify" to be posted in PAD, it's about capturing a moment and a feeling however you feel like doing it. I think PAD totally discourages that and I think it's a shame. Why SAD specifically? Because people need a thread to come together and post photos in. This forum is a conversation among amateurs about photography, it's not a comedy forum (I'd trade every single "best new thread" thread for a single snapshot thread every single time). It needs a central thread that people can post their photos in without worry that they somehow don't qualify. We should be encouraging everyone to go out and take some pictures and then come back and post them. PAD (IMO) scares them off, and encourages some kind of painfully stilted photography. What's the problem with SAD? Too many people post in it, not enough effort is given over to crit around photos. Photos can get lost in SAD, people can get lost also. Crowd pleasers rise to the top, while other interesting and important work can get overlooked. It devolves into another tumblr, or flickr. Thing is, it's at least OUR tumblr. How can we fix it? Ideas: 1. Encourage feedback in SAD. Make SAD a relaxed PAD. 2. Relax PAD and start a new "THIS IS FOR PHOTO CRITIQUE" thread. Don't call it PAD, call it CRITIQUE or something similar. 3. Have two or three days a week for crit. Say, do weekend crits. Open a crit thread, people post, people are allowed to give crit. 4. Open up the crit thread to photo posts just for a few days, and then for the rest of the week people can only give crit. Mirrors more how crits are done (in that it's not a running stream, you go in, show work, people talk about it and then it's over). The reason I love forums like this is because it encourages people to make something. It encourages creation by amateurs and pros alike and lets us all come together to talk about doing the thing that we love. The lack of a SAD thread has cut into that conversation, IMO and I think that is too bad. SAD (or threads like it) may be less serious, less formal than threads like PAD, but they are the heart of the forum: a place where we can all come together and post pictures, which is kind of the point of Dorkroom, right?
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Jun 5, 2012 16:42
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The "participation" that SAD encouraged isn't necessarily the good kind. I know people want a place to dump whatever photos they took without having to actually put any effort in and/or help anyone else improve, but that's sort of contrary to your stated goals for Dorkroom. If having to put effort into photos you post kills photography for a person, then... I dunno, man. Also this is in fact a comedy forum. I can shoot down the first two ideas off the bat, though, and honestly it makes me sad to do it. The "critique encouraged, but not mandatory" was in fact the original purpose of SAD. That went downhill pretty quick. A "more relaxed" PAD (this is not completely out of the question) would probably end up being roughly equivalent to the first idea. What makes this hard is that there's a significant population of people who just aren't ever going to give critique if it's optional, because thinking critically about a photo is actually somewhat challenging. I wish this weren't the case, but historically it would seem that it is. You make some good points though, and it's clearly something people care about, so I'll have a think on this today and hopefully have a better/more complete response later on. Everyone else should feel quite free to post any ideas they have about this too, nobody's gonna get in trouble for having an idea I don't like.
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Jun 5, 2012 19:18
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Actually if people get some decent ideas going we might just try them out one at a time, sorta Rotating Subforum style, and see if something ends up working. I'd ask that anyone who feels the same as Awkward Davies (thanks for the actual effortpost and not just 'bring back SAD'), re-evaluate their preconceptions about PAD though, especially regarding the perceived minimum skill level, since there actually isn't one and there are rules in place (that I'm more than happy to enforce) to ensure that new people don't get ripped on for not being 'good enough'. And yeah that dude got ripped on for a snapshot, but mostly because he explicitly stated that it was. Neither myself nor anyone else is (or should be) scanning through PAD and singling out people they don't think make the cut. SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 19:28
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SoundMonkey posted:Actually if people get some decent ideas going we might just try them out one at a time, sorta Rotating Subforum style, and see if something ends up working. I'm a SAD guy. I shoot lots of "snapshot" photos, but I give them effort, and want to display them for possible critique from the dorkroom. I avoid PAD with them, since they are snapshots. I still read PAD, and critique there sometimes. But I find myself trying to jam photos into the specific threads. A photodump is good and bad. It encourages the newbies to post, and then we can push them to PAD. A common refrain was, "post that in PAD, that's no snapshot!" IT was a good initiation for cautious goons. The critique required keeps those without confidence out, and we need a way to encourage them to post, too. Awkward's ideas were pretty well thought out, I thought.
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Jun 5, 2012 20:51
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SoundMonkey posted:Actually if people get some decent ideas going we might just try them out one at a time, sorta Rotating Subforum style, and see if something ends up working. The preconceptions about PAD are bad, and so maybe we should just get rid of PAD altogether. Create a new thread, same rules, but more encouraged participation. Certainly there are some people that will never critique, but their participation in posting photos is still useful to the forum. They are contributing by posting photos just as someone who posts photos and critiques is contributing. Certainly, they are doing less to provide explicit feedback, but they are lending their voice (through their pictures) to the forum. They are also implicitly lending support to all posters. By posting whatever they post they are showing everyone else it is okay to post and demonstrating different areas, techniques and styles of photography. Their participation should be encouraged, just as everyone else's is. I wasn't talking about the dude who provoked you, I was talking about someone else who provoked a small spat when he said "this thread is not for snapshots". I'd challenge that person to explain what exactly that means, what makes a "snapshot" better than a "PAD", and what defines them. The point being a "snapshot" can evoke a feeling and a mood without the set-up of a photoshoot. Hell, all of photojournalism is based on "snapshots" and requires as much training and work to get good at as anything else. Torgeaux is an excellent photographer and great contributor to this forum, but feels locked out of the PAD thread. Is that right? Certainly we should encourage people to get better at photography, but if your participation in that is only about critique and getting better, that's an awfully restricted and boring way to go. School is about testing and learning, but it's also about less structured socializing and play. I guess what I'm saying is that both things have their place in the forum, Structured critique and photo posting.
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Jun 5, 2012 22:23
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Awkward Davies posted:I wasn't talking about the dude who provoked you, I was talking about someone else who provoked a small spat when he said "this thread is not for snapshots". I'd challenge that person to explain what exactly that means, what makes a "snapshot" better than a "PAD", and what defines them. Well poo poo, I guess I missed that, that's a flagrant rules violation and bad things would have happened if it'd been reported. I AM tossing a few ideas around, and people have privately given me some interesting opinions, so I might throw up some kind of test thread later on today. Sneak preview: if you want critique, it won't be thread for you. Also renaming photo a day just so it's not called photo a day any more is just plain silly. The current lack of a thread to dump low effort photos into is not oppressing valued members of the community nor is it killing dorkroom. There's nothing I'd love more than to have both kinds of thread and have them both work as intended, but I think getting there will be a challenge (as a bonus the failed ideas will probably end up providing a goodly amount of comedy while we get this all worked out). Also unless anyone objects, I'll OP any SaD style thread that gets made, just so nobody has to get offended when "their thread" gets gassed. SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 22:37
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Awkward Davies posted:I wasn't talking about the dude who provoked you, I was talking about someone else who provoked a small spat when he said "this thread is not for snapshots". I'd challenge that person to explain what exactly that means, what makes a "snapshot" better than a "PAD", and what defines them. The point being a "snapshot" can evoke a feeling and a mood without the set-up of a photoshoot. Hell, all of photojournalism is based on "snapshots" and requires as much training and work to get good at as anything else. Torgeaux is an excellent photographer and great contributor to this forum, but feels locked out of the PAD thread. Is that right? You can call me out by name, if you want. I don't get hurt when people disagree with me on the internet.
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Jun 5, 2012 23:26
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dukeku posted:You can call me out by name, if you want. I don't get hurt when people disagree with me on the internet. More people should strive to not get irl sad about things on the internet. A new thread is up. Dump your photos in it. Dump as many as you want (as long as that number is five or less). View other people's photos. Just don't post a single word of critique. Or emptyquote a picture to say you like it. SoundMonkey fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 23:32
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To clarify my intentions a bit, this isn't a "gently caress you SaD, you want this, you get this" thing on my part, I do care about peoples' enjoyment of this forum and how much use they get from it. I've heard from a couple people privately that they liked SaD just because they could be inspired by looking at other people's photos, so this will let that happen without overlapping with PaD's mandate.
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Jun 5, 2012 23:42
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SoundMonkey posted:
I have absolutely nothing against PAD in either implementation or the idea behind it, it just doesn't interest me in the slightest. It's not about the effort, it's about taking something I approach in a loose fashion and breaking it down systemically. This is something I do for fun and myself since I already give and receive critique during my day job while making other people's ideas and art. That's not supposed to be flippant or whiny, I have different motivations and get different things out of the Dorkroom. Ultimately, the Dorkroom is a subforum of a subforum. The participants here are pulled from a larger base of people who paid their $10 for their own various reasons to be here. I think the question of what the role of the Dorkroom is and who is it for is what PAD calls into question. I never viewed SAD as a photo dumping ground, I liked SAD for the glimpse into what people in the Dorkroom were doing, where they were going and what they chose to put their eyeballs on. I've learned far more from what different people decided had value enough to share than how any particular image was executed. I'm not a photographer, I'm a guy with some cameras-photography is just a technical means to an end to me. Even though I may not be enthused about a particular image, I can sit here and say that I've been moved and influenced by many people in the Dorkroom and that approaching the Dorkroom as way to connect with people has brought me dukeku's medium format photos of lonely buildings, aliencowboy and Mr. Despair's landscapes, krackmonkey and Augmented Dickey's urban wanderings, QPZIL's experiments with his billion cameras, Tom Rinthema's family, etc and ad infinitum. These are just some of the Dorkroomers and their work that I can name off the top of my head. Sorry for being a wordy bitch, I just wanted to put to print what it is I get out of the Dorkroom.
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Jun 5, 2012 23:47
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ThisQuietReverie posted:I never viewed SAD as a photo dumping ground, I liked SAD for the glimpse into what people in the Dorkroom were doing, where they were going and what they chose to put their eyeballs on. I've learned far more from what different people decided had value enough to share than how any particular image was executed. I'm not a photographer, I'm a guy with some cameras-photography is just a technical means to an end to me. If a lot of people feel the same way as you about this, the new thread might actually just work. Also never be sorry for typing a bunch of words, the more I know about what people get out of Dorkroom and what parts of it they like the most, the better we can make it.
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Jun 5, 2012 23:49
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I'd also like to encourage "offsite" (or out-of-thread) critique with the new thread - I've had many, many people get crit from me over AIM or PM or whatever, when they didn't feel comfortable asking in a public venue (although of course that's the first thing I encouraged them to do), so if you like someone's picture a lot and want to tell them that you found it really inspiring or whatever, why not shoot them a PM or an e-mail or AIM or something. Ideally of course this would all just happen in Photo a Day, but for a variety of (valid) reasons some people don't post there, but would, I'm sure, love to hear that you enjoyed their photo and/or make a new friend or something. Just not in the thread. I'm not all that great a photographer and my opinions are no more valid than anyone else's, but anyone who wants someone to look at their picture without it being in a public venue is more than welcome to PM/AIM me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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Jun 6, 2012 01:10
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SoundMonkey posted:I'd also like to encourage "offsite" (or out-of-thread) critique with the new thread - I've had many, many people get crit from me over AIM or PM or whatever, when they didn't feel comfortable asking in a public venue (although of course that's the first thing I encouraged them to do), so if you like someone's picture a lot and want to tell them that you found it really inspiring or whatever, why not shoot them a PM or an e-mail or AIM or something. Question: will I be breaking a rule/social norms if I pull a photo from photo dump to PAD to critique it?
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Jun 6, 2012 16:29
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Awkward Davies posted:Question: will I be breaking a rule/social norms if I pull a photo from photo dump to PAD to critique it? At this point I'm gonna say yes (ie, yes it would be breaking a rule), but it's something I'd thought of and don't have a great solution for yet, so stay tuned I guess.
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Jun 6, 2012 16:41
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We have a flickr group for a reason... I think that would serve as a good way to keep track of each other.
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Jun 6, 2012 17:30
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Initially, I liked the idea of going PAD only, but I agree with Awkward Davies that it's really sterilized this forum. Yeah, SAD was essentially a tumblr, but it also helped unify the Dorkroom as a community. I guess we'll see how the current incarnation of SAD works out, but personally, I think it's kind of retarded trying figure out a perfect way of running SAD and PAD parallel from each other. Why not just have one thread and if you want critique, ask for it? People are more than willing to help others out if they need it. Sure, some posts will probably slip through the cracks but it happens with a good portion of the posts in PAD anyway. I don't see the point of discouraging discussion of a snapshot if it's merited; PAD isn't always the place for it.
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Jun 6, 2012 22:42
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SoundMonkey posted:At this point I'm gonna say yes (ie, yes it would be breaking a rule), but it's something I'd thought of and don't have a great solution for yet, so stay tuned I guess. What's the reasoning behind the "no critique" rule in the new SAD? How does excluding any photos in it from recieving critique, even in another thread, help the photographers here in any way?
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Jun 6, 2012 22:46
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David Pratt posted:What's the reasoning behind the "no critique" rule in the new SAD? How does excluding any photos in it from recieving critique, even in another thread, help the photographers here in any way? Probably because he was trying to not completely kill off PAD.
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Jun 6, 2012 22:49
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David Pratt posted:What's the reasoning behind the "no critique" rule in the new SAD? How does excluding any photos in it from recieving critique, even in another thread, help the photographers here in any way? I understand the rule like this: If you just want to show off your picture, put it in the dump. If there is any chance you want people to actually talk about it, take the small, additional effort to post in PAD instead. "If you don't want to talk about our pictures, we won't talk about yours either."
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Jun 6, 2012 23:10
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SoundMonkey posted:At this point I'm gonna say yes (ie, yes it would be breaking a rule), but it's something I'd thought of and don't have a great solution for yet, so stay tuned I guess. Why would it necessarily be a bad thing? If someone wants to put for the effort to write up a critique of someone else's photo, regardless of whether the photographer gives a poo poo or even sees it, then I say let them. At best, it could still help third parties learn about composition, technique, and thinking critically about photographs; at worst, it'll confuse a few people as to why there's a random critique about a photo not posted in PAD. That way you don't force people to talk about photos if they don't want to, but still leave the option open for other people to.
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Jun 6, 2012 23:23
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SoundMonkey: A good feature of the SAD days past was when someone was told to take the photo to the PAD for critique. This seems to actively discourage people from "moving up" to the big leagues. Mr. Hornaday has a good point. If you quote a pic from SAD, but put that quote in PAD, it seems to serve the purpose of both threads quite nicely.
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Jun 6, 2012 23:25
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I concur with Hornaday and torgeaux.
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Jun 6, 2012 23:45
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I see what both you folks mean, and I agree, but the issue I run into is that the person who posted in the lovely Pix thread might not WANT their picture to be critiqued in PaD. I'm not entirely sure how to get around this, and it's the only thing keeping me from just saying "yes". Is there anyone who WOULDN'T be okay with their picture being quoted in PaD? I recognize that people might think it will all of a sudden be held to a much higher standard, but I would hope PaD people would be decent about that (especially since the person who took the photo wasn't the one who thought it should go in PaD). Also yes, critique is prohibited because it's a photo dump, and that's all it is. Oddly this is probably closer to SaD's original intent than the SaD we knew.
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Jun 7, 2012 01:29
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We've always been allowed to offer unsolicited critique and/or comments on photos in pretty much any thread (excluding Photo Dump,) so I'd be kinda surprised to find someone that would be so vehemently opposed to anyone saying anything whatsoever about their photos that it would cause a problem.
William T. Hornaday fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 7, 2012 |
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Jun 7, 2012 01:41
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I'm gonna go ahead and say yes, this is ok, provided you indicate that you're cross-pasting from Badthread, and of course the PaD critique rules apply. I'd also just ask other people critiquing that photo to bear in mind that the person did not originally post it in PaD. If anyone gets their photo cross-posted and doesn't actually want it in PaD, report the post or PM me and I'll edit it out and edit out quotes of it. Not that I see this actually happening, but just in case.
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Jun 7, 2012 01:55
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This seems like a pretty good idea. Hopefully it pans out nicely.
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Jun 7, 2012 02:37
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I think the general gear thread could use a restart soon. It's past 12k posts and more than 3 years old. I think mainly to make it look less scary for new posters. (There isn't much new information that needs to go in the OP, I think.)
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Jun 19, 2012 18:46
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nielsm posted:I think the general gear thread could use a restart soon. It's past 12k posts and more than 3 years old. I think mainly to make it look less scary for new posters. (There isn't much new information that needs to go in the OP, I think.) Sounds like someone just volunteered. Go through the OP and edit/update anything that's wrong, and feel free to post a new thread (at which time the old one will go on a mystical journey).
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Jun 19, 2012 22:48
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William T. Hornaday posted:We've always been allowed to offer unsolicited critique and/or comments on photos in pretty much any thread (excluding Photo Dump,) so I'd be kinda surprised to find someone that would be so vehemently opposed to anyone saying anything whatsoever about their photos that it would cause a problem. I mentioned this over email to Soundmonkey but the portrait thread has a huge problem with a lot of criticism coming from people who basically only post snippy critiques and never really post their own work. The portrait thread I think could use a bit tighter moderation in that respect. When you're working with people I think criticism could stand to be a bit less armchair "I've read the strobist blog so I know everything". I sometimes get the sense that it's the blind leading the blind - it'd be nice if there was a loose rule that it's expected to contribute to the thread if your criticising in it.
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Jul 8, 2012 21:47
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So I can't offer critique on something if its not a style I shoot on a regular basis? Thats stupid.
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Jul 9, 2012 00:14
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Mr. Despair posted:So I can't offer critique on something if its not a style I shoot on a regular basis? I'd normally agree with you but the level of critique has gotten so low effort and poor that some structure might be helpful. As a speciality thread it sort implies that some expertise in that speciality would be welcome as part of criticism. It's not even to the point where it's people of the same skill level helping each other out, but people with no image posts in a thread making goony one liner criticisms on someone who's just starting out. Paragon8 fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jul 9, 2012 |
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Jul 9, 2012 00:37
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So if a post is obviously not serious critique and isn't helping the thread at all, report the post.
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Jul 9, 2012 00:56
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Mr. Despair posted:So if a post is obviously not serious critique and isn't helping the thread at all, report the post. I actually have no idea how to report a post.
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Jul 9, 2012 01:24
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Paragon8 posted:I actually have no idea how to report a post. If you have plat there should be a button labled report next to the quote button, otherwise Soundmonky posted:
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Jul 9, 2012 01:45
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Mr. Despair posted:If you have plat there should be a button labled report next to the quote button, otherwise i think the most obnoxious critic for landscapes (which i'm guilty of having given, too) is 'you should have waited for another time of day [morning/sunset]'
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Jul 9, 2012 05:42
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Mr. Despair posted:If you have plat there should be a button labled report next to the quote button, otherwise This. If a post is bad, send me an e-mail, hit me up on AIM, which is on pretty much 24/7, send me a PM, or get plat so you can report or something. A post doesn't have to have a report for me to do something about it. If a thread is going to poo poo, also send me an e-mail, because while I try to keep an eye on everything, I'm not in every thread all the time. lovely posts are lovely posts no matter the subject, and lovely posts are something you should report (or otherwise let me know about).
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Jul 9, 2012 07:08
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SoundMonkey posted:This. If a post is bad, send me an e-mail, hit me up on AIM, which is on pretty much 24/7, send me a PM, or get plat so you can report or something. A post doesn't have to have a report for me to do something about it. If a thread is going to poo poo, also send me an e-mail, because while I try to keep an eye on everything, I'm not in every thread all the time. okay thanks, I don't have plat so that's probably why. honestly I would like to see a sort of change in culture and attitude of the thread but that might be too much to change.
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Jul 9, 2012 10:27
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Paragon8 posted:I'd normally agree with you but the level of critique has gotten so low effort and poor that some structure might be helpful. The critics will only be as good as the photos. (they are pretty bad coughYOURFACEcough) Musket fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jul 9, 2012 |
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Jul 9, 2012 16:16
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