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Focusing on how much money you can earn is entirely the wrong attitude to have in New Zealand - if this is your primary driver then you should absolutely go to Australia or London or the US or wherever as you will undoubtedly earn more. While you commute for hours each day in your 60+ hour week and maybe see a tree in the weekend. I'm happy earning enough money to be comfortable and spending less than quarter of an hour walking to work and back each day. I'll also never have to declare bankruptcy because of an unexpected health issue under our current system, and until recently I couldn't be fired "just because". It's a real shame that the majority of the country seems to be focused on something unachievable (EARN AS MUCH AS AUSTRALIA!) at the expense of what we already have.
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Jan 20, 2012 10:35
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Goat Bastard posted:Focusing on how much money you can earn is entirely the wrong attitude to have in New Zealand - if this is your primary driver then you should absolutely go to Australia or London or the US or wherever as you will undoubtedly earn more. It depends on the job. There's a reason why an overseas job looks attractive to teachers in New Zealand - you get paid a hell of a lot less than you do in Australia or Canada and you work a hell of a lot more hours on average. It's not unusual to do a 12-hour day, so why wouldn't you take a job in the UK or Australia or Canada if one was offered?
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Jan 20, 2012 10:44
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Vagabundo posted:It depends on the job. There's a reason why an overseas job looks attractive to teachers in New Zealand - you get paid a hell of a lot less than you do in Australia or Canada and you work a hell of a lot more hours on average. It's not unusual to do a 12-hour day, so why wouldn't you take a job in the UK or Australia or Canada if one was offered? Yea fair enough, I guess the hours/pay thing is probably pretty job specific.
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Jan 20, 2012 10:50
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Goat Bastard posted:Focusing on how much money you can earn is entirely the wrong attitude to have in New Zealand - if this is your primary driver then you should absolutely go to Australia or London or the US or wherever as you will undoubtedly earn more. The thing that drove me away is that it is just so goddamned dull in NZ. There is gently caress all going on. So I live on the other side of the world now and stay inside the house. ClubmanGT posted:It is not uncommon for The Herald to print letters claiming students in New Zealand should surrender their passports until they've repaid their debts entirely. gently caress YOU I'M NOT COMING BACK NOW FOR DEFINITE
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Jan 20, 2012 11:05
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Goat Bastard posted:Focusing on how much money you can earn is entirely the wrong attitude to have in New Zealand - if this is your primary driver then you should absolutely go to Australia or London or the US or wherever as you will undoubtedly earn more. Check again, New Zealanders work far more hours for a far lower per-capita wage than anywhere else in the OECD. The problem is that stuff like living costs and starting a family isn't getting any cheaper. It's all very well to take the 'money isn't everything' angle, but if you actually want to live in a house or have a hobby, you have to spend money. The attaining money bit isn't what drives people - it's being able to live knowing that they don't have to pay a power bill with a credit card, let alone spend time doing something recreationally like fishing or whatever. People get worried about how much they earn because it's barely enough to eek out a meagre existence. I hold no ill-will to those who move to somewhere else simply for the peace of mind that financial security itself brings, not the smug satisfaction of earning a higher wage for no other reason than earning a higher wage.
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Jan 20, 2012 12:03
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Pozzo posted:The thing that drove me away is that it is just so goddamned dull in NZ. There is gently caress all going on. So I live on the other side of the world now and stay inside the house. Hope you're paying your loan while over there.
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Jan 20, 2012 12:07
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ClubmanGT posted:The attaining money bit isn't what drives people - it's being able to live knowing that they don't have to pay a power bill with a credit card, Power in NZ is roughly 3x more expensive than it is where I live in the US, despite NZ's hydro power being practically free to provide. That right there is a quality of life killer, how many NZ'ers can afford to run central heating? It's the little things like that that make the difference. Smoke belching clapped out Japanese diesel vehicles are another thing I don't miss, people drive big SUV's sometimes but at least you can't smell them. Would possibly trade air quality for burger fuel.
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Jan 20, 2012 14:33
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Red_Fred posted:Hope you're paying your loan while over there. Don't be silly, they can't get me (Repayment holiday, for now) sanchez posted:Power in NZ is roughly 3x more expensive than it is where I live in the US, despite NZ's hydro power being practically free to provide. That right there is a quality of life killer, how many NZ'ers can afford to run central heating? Man I never even understood what central heating even was until I left NZ. Prior to that it was just this generic term from American/British media. We must be one of the worst heated countries Pozzo fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 20, 2012 |
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Jan 20, 2012 15:44
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Red_Fred posted:Hope you're paying your loan while over there. The Government finally cracking down on student loan defaulters is the only policy in the last five years that hasn't made me feel like a chump for staying in New Zealand after I graduated.
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Jan 20, 2012 21:46
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sanchez posted:how many NZ'ers can afford to run central heating? I just wear another hoodie.
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Jan 20, 2012 21:52
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Also don't forget that building houses to first world standards is part of the red tape strangling business. (and not, for example, the planning requirements imposed by Boomer-dominated local authorities that just happen to push up the price of the housing which, oh yes, they already own)
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Jan 20, 2012 22:23
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Trouble Man posted:The Government finally cracking down on student loan defaulters is the only policy in the last five years that hasn't made me feel like a chump for staying in New Zealand after I graduated. Yeah I think loans are a bigger problem in NZ than many other economic issues. People that leave with no aim to pay them are basically making GBS threads on the rest of us. That still doesn't stop the IRD harassing me for loan money when I have paid my first in full (in a year mind you) and literally have no money to give them.
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Jan 20, 2012 22:25
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Pararoid posted:Just to re-quote my previous rant: Heh, perhaps it's because Bob has been unpopular since about a week after he was elected when people realised voting for someone because you liked them when they were on TV was a stupid thing to do. Of course the fuckers here forgot that after the September earthquake and voted him back in because he was good at being on TV again. Worst timing of a natural disaster ever.
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Jan 20, 2012 22:26
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I left New Zealand last year because I started in a graduate wage just before the recession hit and then couldn't get a payrise for three years despite my responsibilities increasing dramatically, and working 70 hours a week (public sector). Now I earn twice as much in the hand, pay very little tax and don't have to pay tax/Kiwisaver/student loans - even though I have sub $2k left so that'll be gone soon. All I did was change countries, I still work in the same industry in a similar role. In New Zealand I would regularly be down to my last $5 before payday or borrowing money off my parents. In your late 20s with a professional degree and a public service job, that's no way to live. Anyone who's lived in Wellington will tell you cost of living is astronomical there now. If you're just starting out like I was a few years ago, you *really* got the sharp end of the stick as cost of living soared in Wellington. I miss New Zealand and my friends/family but there's just no way I could go back without taking a massive paycut. Financial stability is important to me and I just couldn't have it in NZ. Edit: also it's not a nice time to work public sector and have zero nest egg in case of restructuring etc, I would have been completely hosed if I'd been made redunduant miss_chaos fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jan 21, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 04:36
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Vagabundo posted:Can anyone tell me how much actual reconstruction has happened? Well from where I'm sitting all that's been done is maybe 30% of the demolition job and less than 10% of the actual rebuild. It's pretty pathetic really. The sad thing is not only is Canterbury going down the toilet it's dragging the whole South Island with it, which as you know is the real engine of the NZ economy. Frankly if I was in Auckland or Welly I'd be getting a lot more upset and involved than people up there seem to be.
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Jan 21, 2012 04:43
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Pararoid posted:Well from where I'm sitting all that's been done is maybe 30% of the demolition job and less than 10% of the actual rebuild. Most just plain don't realise either how bad it is or that it wil even affect them if Christchurch does basically dry up.
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Jan 21, 2012 05:37
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Trouble Man posted:Also don't forget that building houses to first world standards is part of the red tape strangling business. We can't win this one either, sadly. They don't want to free-up land because they can't justify the "sprawl" - i.e. they argue they won't be able to serve newer areas with public transport et al when they aren't going to serve it with public transport whether you build it or not. At the same time, they're trying to ramp up central city densities so public transport becomes cheaper to provide per subsidy incurring user. It's not actually about getting more people to use public transport because otherwise they would have, you know, invested in it before now or something. miss_chaos posted:Edit: also it's not a nice time to work public sector and have zero nest egg in case of restructuring etc, I would have been completely hosed if I'd been made redunduant It's not really a nice time to work anywhere. A lot of the grads in firms are just leaving once their ticket is clipped. The five or so friends I know who have gone into financial services are basically taking bets on who will be made redundant first. No one wants to start a family or buy a house or risk money on fun stuff because they'll still have student loans to service if they do land another job. I'll be interested to see what the consequences are of an entire country basically forcing people to wait an additional five - ten years before they can start a family or own a house.
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Jan 21, 2012 07:37
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ClubmanGT posted:It's not really a nice time to work anywhere. A lot of the grads in firms are just leaving once their ticket is clipped. The five or so friends I know who have gone into financial services are basically taking bets on who will be made redundant first. No one wants to start a family or buy a house or risk money on fun stuff because they'll still have student loans to service if they do land another job. New Zealand has a real problem with graduates and professionals leaving, but also because the only ones that seem to be staying these days are ones that aren't. It's hard to create a top flight economy when a huge number of your skilled professionals are leaving for good, and the ones that are coming up are only hireable for manual labour jobs or are dependent on state support. It's just a different kind of economy now from the one I grew up in where blue collar jobs were still the backbone of the economy. New Zealand is finding itself unequipped for making it in a modern economy. 10-15 years from now, NZ is really going to be up poo poo creek. I look around my social circle - pretty much everyone who made it to university is gone. The only people I know who are staying are the ones who dropped out early and started having kids the state now pays for. And that's not even counting the death of the regions who have very few tertiary sectors and ever declining blue collar jobs (bar mining or meat processing really).
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Jan 21, 2012 08:59
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I think the other major issue is that for youth, with the awesomely high unemployment rate of something like 25%, where you live is a blessing and a curse, especially when it comes to studying. Living in Hamilton, a friend was paying $80 a week for a room in a house next to the main gate of Waikato University. If you want to be close to Auckland University/AUT, you're paying all of your student allowance money and a bit more a week. What, money for food? You should be studying, you don't have time to eat! loving lazy students. It's hard to explain this to relatives who live in Australia because their system doesn't seem to want to tell you to get hosed because you're studying. My cousin's allowance kicks in when he turns 23, no questions asked. $200. He gets an additional amount for moving away from home - $260. That's $460 a week that doesn't have to be paid back. Ever. When you compare our student assistance scheme to Australia's, New Zealand students are basically being punished for choosing tertiary education. It's positively vindictive. I'd also start to question the 'it's worth it in the long run' argument in the current economy, given that so many people have degrees and how little our wages have grown in the last decade. It's interesting though, because as a generation we're being drilled about how things like batches and boats are part of some over-arching New Zealandness that we should all feel warm and fuzzy about. What's going to happen in ten years time, when we realise housing, debt and low wages means we can't have those things, or probably any toys at all? Prepare for a national identity crisis, I guess. Butt Wizard fucked around with this message at 10:42 on Jan 21, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 10:40
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I managed to avoid the dire financial hardship by living with my parents while I was studying, and then continued to live with them for a year after I got a full time $40k salary position (IT degree). Obviously this isn't an option for many, but is easier if you happen to live in Auckland already. That gave me a pretty comfortable savings buffer for when I eventually moved out on my own and started earning $50k in Wellington, but I had noticed that my savings were barely growing at all (not that I was really making an effort to do so). However 4 years on (which was on the same salary the whole time) I'm about to start a new job for $70k, and essentially plan to maintain my existing spending habits, so I should finally be able to start saving something nice. (In theory). I also recently paid off my student loan, which was about $15k, and took me 5 years of the base minimum payment. Clearly reading all this I'm in the minority though, and my parents supporting my food and housing costs while I was living with them was a major, major factor in how comfortable I am right now. On the other hand, my sister got married and went to aussie, living on the Gold Coast, and is really struggling to find a decent paying job. She has had to deal with employers that treat her like she's out to rip off the company, and recently had another one fire her during her probation period for asking too many questions about how to do things. Also they have a mortgage they can just barely afford because houses will be bought by someone else if you don't jump on it instantly, and an expensive but poo poo car that keeps breaking on them.
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Jan 21, 2012 11:16
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I'm a teacher and my girlfriend is about to graduate as a nurse. We are absolutely moving to a different country as soon as we can. I mean, why not? We're both in our early twenties, and have nothing tying us down. Buying a house is just not going to happen financially, and we can easily double our wage while working better hours. I love New Zealand and I know I'll miss it, but I see pictures of my friends overseas pushing brooms who are living in houses that are drat near mansions. We were just stoked to get a flat in our price range with a heat pump.
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Jan 21, 2012 11:20
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I too worry for NZ in 10-15 years, if that. Buggered if I know how to fix it. 'Quality of life' is not better in NZ, that's total bullshit. Everyone stays home and watches TV because they're too poor to do anything else. It's too expensive to drive anywhere. No discretionary spending for entertainment. Eating well is stupid expensive. Since no one can afford anything, business is screwed, everyone is depressed. The weather sucks more than it doesn't. Go to a mall in NZ, everyone walks around and window shops because they can't afford to buy anything. Here, people carry shopping bags and purchases around. Cafes and restaurants are full all the time. People smile and talk to you. I can work a 30 hour work week and earn twice as much after tax as a fortnight in NZ. I can drive places and I don't take my life in my hands while doing so compared to terrible NZ drivers (Penalties are far harsher, no ACC = everyone more careful).
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Jan 21, 2012 11:33
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Oh yeah dude totally, ACC is so good that smashing your car into a tree doesn't even hurt!  Also access to abortions makes girls sluts, and welfare is so easy I don't even know why I bother working. Congrats on having the dumbest thing said in this thread so far, though I'm not surprised it came from you.
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Jan 21, 2012 11:43
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I grew up in a right-wing shithole in the south island, so I got a full blast of some of the most horrible and pervasive views this country has to offer. It was only when I went to Uni I realised just how bad this whole place is. I'm glad this thread exists so I can have even more reasons to smash my head against the wall. I'm also glad that I have a European passsport so I can jump ship as soon as I finish my education and not get hosed over if (when) National decides to put interest on student loans.
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Jan 21, 2012 12:23
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New guy, just like the old guy...? Seems pretty stupid to go so softly softly when profile and leadership brand is going to be by far your biggest problem starting completely from scratch with a hostile caucus, and you're going against a very popular Prime Minister. Time will tell I guess. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10780064
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Jan 21, 2012 13:33
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I am happy with ACC. As someone who has had major surgery due to a road accident (that was not my fault) free of charge (oh right, those levies). I would hate for this to taken away from anyone else. But the merits and drawbacks of ACC could be debated for pages and pages here. My wife and I did the whole overseas thing not a long time ago, and I hear a lot of people these days are leaving to seek better opportunities in Australia, UK or Central Asia. Yes, you can make some money over there - if you can find the work. Also unless you become entrenched over there, the novelty of being a foreigner gets tiresome after the 5th or 6th year and you just become British/Australian/whatever and then you realise you can just do your lovely job back in your own country, except you grossly inflate the exchange rate and whinge to all your friends that you used to get paid $180,000 a year when you lived overseas and now you are on $50k and the price of a bottle of coke is $4 which is outrageous compared with the 1.5 quid you paid in the UK. There are a lot of scary things going on in this country, but we have two young children now. If we had stayed in the UK to have children we would either be in the same position or even more hosed as we are at the moment, so why not do it around friends and family. If you are planning to go to the UK, enjoy Nursing in the NHS. With all the policies I do not agree with going on in this country (and in the UK/US), all is not lost here.
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Jan 21, 2012 20:11
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Law posted:I grew up in a right-wing shithole in the south island, so I got a full blast of some of the most horrible and pervasive views this country has to offer. It was only when I went to Uni I realised just how bad this whole place is. I'm glad this thread exists so I can have even more reasons to smash my head against the wall. I'm also glad that I have a European passsport so I can jump ship as soon as I finish my education and not get hosed over if (when) National decides to put interest on student loans. I am pleased that this thread has really turned out to be New Zealand is something awful edition because while I do honestly love the country (and we have lots of awesome stuff that we could be talking about) if there is one particularly Kiwi thing its that lots of people seem to get completely irate or intentionally ignorant when trying to discuss any of New Zealands problems to the point it basically becomes really difficult to ever do it/you don't go there pretty much ever. Angry Moo Cow posted:I am happy with ACC. As someone who has had major surgery due to a road accident (that was not my fault) free of charge (oh right, those levies). I would hate for this to taken away from anyone else. But the merits and drawbacks of ACC could be debated for pages and pages here. Im always up for ACC chat/debate- for full disclosure I work as a law clerk for a pretty cool ACC lawyer who I think is basically the most 'fightin for the little guy' and compassionate mofo I have ever met. My views basically TL/DR: Empirical evidence basically strongly supports ACC as a great system on the whole- PriceWaterHouseCooper did a pretty huge big and found it to be the best system of its kind in the world. New Zealanders pay a really small amount of money for what are basically the same health outcomes in other countries. In some of my work so far I have also seen however people who get can get really fuxed over by the system at its various levels (arguably corrupt medical professionals, paper-pushers and such) but I still basically recognize it as a great system. Also, having lived and worked some in the USA and seeing advertisements for those 'ambulance chaser' lawyers with ads like "HAD AN ACCIDENT? GET WHAT YOU ARE OWED and SUE now!" always puts some perspective back to why it was introduced heh. Seeing various interests try and push for ACC privatization in various forms pains me but moreso are the various angles of attack on Pharmac (which is apparently safe for now under the current Govt). Lemonus fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 21, 2012 |
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Jan 21, 2012 20:48
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I got hit by a car and if it weren't for a very talented suregon, doctors and nurses I would not have my right arm from the shoulder down right now. Luckily I didn't have to pay a cent thanks to ACC. If I were in the USA, I could have sued and never would have had to work again!!!
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Jan 21, 2012 21:49
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NZAmoeba posted:Oh yeah dude totally, ACC is so good that smashing your car into a tree doesn't even hurt! Straw. Man. This is D&D, go back to whereever? ACC is good, it helps people, there are loads of things going for it. But the personal responsibility of being bankrupted because YOU hosed someone over because YOU were a moron isn't there. Sure some people will be poo poo drivers or paragons of excellent road behaviour regardless. But incentive is incentive is incentive. I've travelled outside the country and I've seen examples of how other government/cultural systems can influence their populations. Driving in Aus, USA, and NZ, NZ drivers are by far worse off than the others. Of course, Aus has harsher road infringement penalties, better roads, and stricter conditions for the Drivers License probationary period, which all influence the overall culture and statistics. So I'm not claiming 'ACC is the difference!'. But it can't be argued it's a positive influence on driver behaviour. Halfpast_Yellow fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jan 22, 2012 |
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Jan 22, 2012 01:08
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Halfpast_Yellow posted:
The personal responsibility thing is a nice thought but basically the evidence is that a very small proportion of people are successful taking it through the torts system and there is a host of poo poo that poses problems which is why they opted to take it out. When they introduced ACC in the 1960's the rationale was basically that basically a very small number of people really get the damages to remedy their situation (estimated at something like 8-10% in the Woodhouse report AFAIK) whereas a considerable percentage get messed over for some of the below reasons: 1. Time delays in the justice system. 2. Costs incurred from lawyers and the legal processes (sometimes completely raping what chance at damages you really had) 3. Failed court cases when they could/should have been successful. Incompetent lawyers and such. 4. Peoples ignorance of their legal options/possible exploitation of situations of vulnerable people. People having limited education for example among other things are unfortunate barriers to proper access to the justice system. 5. Unfortunately a lot of people that end up in moronic poo poo don't have much money at all/are already basically bankrupt. And as you may be aware there is also the limited scope to have punitive 'exemplary damages' awarded and you can be assured if there was some big scale egregious conscious risk-taking (thinking something like that cruise liner sinking in Italy) that the morons would get the legal hammer. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_damages#New_Zealand) And honestly I think the real rationale that should support it is the valuable protection it provides to the labour force also alongside social justice angle. I mean in the USA fuark I think we would be astounded at how many people struggle to work because of injuries they couldn't get cover for/didn't have insurance and left it far too long to get treated. These people unfortunately often end up falling into the welfare system too and all those associated costs. Lemonus fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jan 22, 2012 |
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Jan 22, 2012 01:15
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I actually think the lowest point in New Zealand politics was when Key said that National would guarantee that everyone would get their pension at 65, and everyone under the age of 35 mentally added "except for you, you'll just pay for it", shrugged, and didn't let it change how they voted one jot.
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Jan 22, 2012 01:35
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Trouble Man posted:I actually think the lowest point in New Zealand politics was when Key said that National would guarantee that everyone would get their pension at 65, and everyone under the age of 35 mentally added "except for you, you'll just pay for it", shrugged, and didn't let it change how they voted one jot. There were so many examples of people voting against their best interests, ugh the whole election 
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Jan 22, 2012 02:11
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Halfpast_Yellow posted:Driving in Aus, USA, and NZ, NZ drivers are by far worse off than the others. Road deaths per 100,000 people per year: New Zealand: 8.6 United States: 12.3 Road deaths per 100,000 motor vehicles per year: New Zealand: 11 United States: 15 What?
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Jan 22, 2012 02:17
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Midget Fist posted:There were so many examples of people voting against their best interests, ugh the whole election What I'm really looking forward to is being told in 20-odd years by Labour/National that we shouldn't need a pension, we've all had Kiwisaver, we've had plenty of warning, and everyone needs to tighten their belts.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:19
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I've done my time overseas, I still have a British drivers licence. I have driven around Europe, US, Aus etc. I have never had an accident, and the Kiwi's I know overseas haven't had any accidents (that they have disclosed to me). I know that accidents in NZ are horrible, but also a bit of this hysteria has been pushed by a large Highway Patrol division of the Police and the APN news media. Especially when the news feed is quiet, there is nothing the NZH loves more than to splash a wrecked car on its front page.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:37
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Trouble Man posted:What I'm really looking forward to is being told in 20-odd years by Labour/National that we shouldn't need a pension, we've all had Kiwisaver, we've had plenty of warning, and everyone needs to tighten their belts. Wait until the politicians and their loyal media catch onto the US usage of the word 'entitlements', so they can start ramping up the envy of workers who have super/pensions etc by targeting them as the reason the economy is bad, fat govt. paycheques etc. It also sucks to see this port dispute bringing out the people who, when they see workers in another job getting a reasonable wage and standing up against being shat-on by their employers, do not say 'hey, I should fight for those kinds of rights too!' No, they instead try to take away from other people by saying they 'make too much money' or are 'lazy', trying to justify their own horrible hours and lack of pay. It's spiteful and it brings everyone else down to the bottom. I'm still excited about moving home to NZ, there are things I'll miss about the US but they aren't big in the scheme of things. In England I missed the sun, in California I miss the rain, in NZ at least I'll get lots of both (fingers crossed!)
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Jan 22, 2012 02:37
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Install Gentoo posted:What? Im not sure you have taken into account the perceived rudeness of the drivers into your calculus 
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Jan 22, 2012 02:38
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Halfpast_Yellow posted:Driving in Aus, USA, and NZ, NZ drivers are by far worse off than the others. This has nothing to do with 'incentive', which is always a pretty weak motivator when it comes to quick decisions of convenience (i.e. why the crime rate isn't improved by harsher penalties) and everything to do with the fact that we call poo poo 2-lane country roads national highways.
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Jan 22, 2012 02:45
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Also, as an American, I don't avoid accidents because it might cost me money, I avoid it because why would I try to get hurt or killed on purpose?
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Jan 22, 2012 02:46
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Among all the bitching and moaning I'd just like to add that I earn a decent wage, and though I could earn far more in Australia doing the same job, I'd then be stuck in Melbourne or Sydney and gently caress that for a game of soldiers. I get to live 50km outside of Christchurch on a half acre section with fantastic views, room for my chickens and pigs, a stream and hills for my kids to play in and it still only takes me 45 minutes to get to work. I don't think there is anywhere else in the world where I could have the same lifestyle. It's not all bad here.
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Jan 22, 2012 03:25
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