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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Hell, the Emperor, the big-up advocate of all things Bright and reasonable, couldn't finish the Primarch project without doing deals with the four ultimate powers of spiritual evil. This is actually not something that we know. In fact, the whole set up could very easily be the chaos gods trying to trick those people into thinking he had made deals with them. Remember that in each of those visions, they were trying to get a specific kind of reaction out of those people.
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Feb 10, 2012 19:56
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S.J. posted:This is actually not something that we know. In fact, the whole set up could very easily be the chaos gods trying to trick those people into thinking he had made deals with them. Remember that in each of those visions, they were trying to get a specific kind of reaction out of those people. This has a lot of truth, however there are subtle hints that Magnus knows the Truth (and what he actually is) in some of the Heresy novels.
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Feb 10, 2012 20:49
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ocrumsprug posted:This has a lot of truth, however there are subtle hints that Magnus knows the Truth (and what he actually is) in some of the Heresy novels. There are also a lot of overt hints that Magnus is so full of himself that he loses the ability to properly discern the true nature of the warp from his own superiority-complex laden version of the warp.
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Feb 10, 2012 21:19
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S.J. posted:There are also a lot of overt hints that Magnus is so full of himself that he loses the ability to properly discern the true nature of the warp from his own superiority-complex laden version of the warp. Isn't there also the issue of the blindness of the Thousand Sons to the fact that their familiars are actually demons? Did Magnus know about that?
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Feb 10, 2012 21:30
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MOnion: maybe put this in the OP? It's a fairly comprehensive wiki for official WH40k and WHF lore. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.TzWAl_k9Uqk
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Feb 10, 2012 21:41
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Pyrolocutus posted:Isn't there also the issue of the blindness of the Thousand Sons to the fact that their familiars are actually demons? Did Magnus know about that? The nature of the warp wasn't shared with the rest of humanity when the crusade began. Unless you had some reason to actually know what was there, it was essentially the 9th Dimension that was populated with some native non-sentient predators. The line Thousand Son member would have just known the official line, or whatever story had been told to them. Magnus would have known, but whether he appreciated the danger or was blinded by arrogance is another matter.
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Feb 10, 2012 21:51
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Fayk posted:Obviously the GM has the final word, but what are people's thoughts about MIU compatibility on fairly (not some disposable poo poo from a hive-world) nice quality man-portable weapons (vs vehicle mounted, etc) - like a Solo Bolter for example? Either having or being able to be retrofitted via TechUse/Armourer/etc? Bolters have machine spirits, and a high quality astartes bolter might have thousands of machine spirits, each serving a sacred purpose in the gun. They are ludicrously advanced weapons. The only reason they might not be MIU compatible is because they are TOO COOL for your run of the mill MIU and will fry anyone who even tries to link with them unless they are an inquisitor or techmarine or similar worthy. IMO.
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Feb 10, 2012 23:47
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Here is a random name generator for DH that does up to 50 names at a time. http://www.malleus.dk/Ordo/NameGenerator.aspx This is a random highway traffic generator that I am trying to use to set up a set piece car / hovercraft chase scene for the investigators in one DH mission. http://www.asmor.com/scripts/traffic.html
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Feb 11, 2012 00:27
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Liesmith posted:Bolters have machine spirits, and a high quality astartes bolter might have thousands of machine spirits, each serving a sacred purpose in the gun. They are ludicrously advanced weapons. The only reason they might not be MIU compatible is because they are TOO COOL for your run of the mill MIU and will fry anyone who even tries to link with them unless they are an inquisitor or techmarine or similar worthy. IMO. loving Iron Hands bullshit up ins. Yeah, I know, your Master of the Forge has you spending your maintenance-hours listening to servitors 'lost in contemplation of the Omnissiah's glory,' after long enough I'd start buying into his bullshit too just to shut him up. Everyone else just calls it 'mind-lock,' goddamn. And yes I know about the time the Prophecy of Ajax-183 saved an entire sector from being overrun by Orks, that was just a coincidence.
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Feb 11, 2012 03:52
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Liesmith posted:Bolters have machine spirits, and a high quality astartes bolter might have thousands of machine spirits, each serving a sacred purpose in the gun. They are ludicrously advanced weapons. The only reason they might not be MIU compatible is because they are TOO COOL for your run of the mill MIU and will fry anyone who even tries to link with them unless they are an inquisitor or techmarine or similar worthy. IMO.
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Feb 11, 2012 03:59
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Zereth posted:Do they have the "Of course it has a machine spirit, it's a machine, right?" machine spirits or the "accessible with proper tools diagnostic computer interface" machine spirits? The Liesmith version of 40K, kind of like the Liesmith version of Mage, takes a few liberties with the source material but is internally consistent. The Liesmith version of 40K has as its core conceit that the Adeptus Mechanicus is not, in fact, a bunch of guys doing things by rote who occasionally accidentally stumble onto actual science. Instead, they are 100% right. The reason human technology is so resilient is that -everything- is on some level vaguely aware, and the reason the Tech-Priests perform rites that seem to our (woefully primitive) understanding to be pointless is because those are, in fact, the best ways to deal with the fantastically advanced technology of forty thousand years in the future.
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Feb 11, 2012 04:04
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The fantastically advanced technology of forty thousand years in the future which is in nearly every case massively inferior to the fantastically advanced technology of twenty thousand years in the future?  (Or whatever the actual figures are, I don't feel like looking up the timeline here)
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Feb 11, 2012 04:06
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Zereth posted:The fantastically advanced technology of forty thousand years in the future which is in nearly every case massively inferior to the fantastically advanced technology of twenty thousand years in the future? Like I said. Takes a few liberties with the source material. I like the interpretation and all, but I find it less entertaining than the idea that the Cult Mechanicus is a pretty batshit mix of people who know what they're doing and people who are just making it up as they go along.
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Feb 11, 2012 04:16
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My favorite thing in 40k roleplay is coming up with stupid grim names for stuff. Statue of the planet's saint who survived a bolt through the eye? Phineas Rage. Ancient Terran telecommunications of dashes and dots? MOROSE CODE. 
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Feb 11, 2012 04:16
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I enjoy making overly fancy and corny names for Battlefleet ships. Aegis of the Pious Blade of Victory Deliverance of Faith Destroyer of All His Enemies Agent of His Will etc.
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Feb 11, 2012 04:19
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I'm partially convinced that the Mechanicus don't believe any of the poo poo they preach at all, and are essentially running a long con on the rest of the Adeptus Terra to hoard all of the good stuff for themselves and keep all the rest of the benighted loving barbarians in the Imperium from wrecking their cool ships and robots by poking their fingers in places they don't belong.
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Feb 11, 2012 06:16
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:I'm partially convinced that the Mechanicus don't believe any of the poo poo they preach at all, and are essentially running a long con on the rest of the Adeptus Terra to hoard all of the good stuff for themselves and keep all the rest of the benighted loving barbarians in the Imperium from wrecking their cool ships and robots by poking their fingers in places they don't belong. You know, if you could make DH into a more Call of Cthulhu type of investigation game, that would be a pretty cool premise. You're sent on a mission by your (slightly rogue?) Inquisitor to find out the secret of Binary or whatever and it just digs you deeper and deeper. At some point the Inquisitor proves to be too inquisitive and gets killed off, and before too long the acolytes have started to stumble on data that the Tech Priests are dicking the Imperium over. Cue sanity-losing series of sessions that end with half of the team dead and the others too insane to be believed.
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Feb 12, 2012 13:48
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Zereth posted:The fantastically advanced technology of forty thousand years in the future which is in nearly every case massively inferior to the fantastically advanced technology of twenty thousand years in the future? In the Dark Age of Technology they really, completely understand basically everything. Dark Age humanity could do things that would make the tau look like fumbling infants, could keep up with the eldar in terms of tech, they were the bee's knees. People in 40k are backwards fumblers compared to them. that doesn't mean they are backwards fumblers compared to us though. Presumably by then, our quaint paradigm of the scientific method would be a ludicrous goal to strive for. It would be like us emulating the fumblings of a monkey to extract termites from a log. Sure, we don't know everything, but we are better than that poo poo. To treat the people of the far future as some sort of superstitious neoprimitives is funny, but it's funnier if the superstitious barbarians of the 40th millenium are still smarter than we are in the dawning of the 3rd one. They are people living in a world that they can't understand, sure. but we can't understand it either. so yeah they have no idea how machine spirits work, it's like magic to them. But at least they know they exist, we are so stupid today that we haven't even noticed the machine spirits that run our poo poo. thats the joke
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Feb 13, 2012 02:26
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The process of "scientific discovery" in 40k goes like this: Explorators find long-lost device of unknown function (archaeotech). They take it back to the local temple of Mars, where Magi try to discern its purpose (essentially prodding and poking to get a reaction). When the Magi hit on a combination of actions that produces a useful result, they write up a ritual outlining the steps to appease the machine spirit and ask it to help the user. Most people (tech-priests included) have no idea how things works, they just say the words and perform the actions and hey presto! it works. It's a strange mix of religious ritual and technical know-how. I think of it as a joke on the assumption that science and religion are mutually exclusive.
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Feb 13, 2012 03:32
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ItalicSquirrels posted:You know, if you could make DH into a more Call of Cthulhu type of investigation game, that would be a pretty cool premise. You're sent on a mission by your (slightly rogue?) Inquisitor to find out the secret of Binary or whatever and it just digs you deeper and deeper. At some point the Inquisitor proves to be too inquisitive and gets killed off, and before too long the acolytes have started to stumble on data that the Tech Priests are dicking the Imperium over. Cue sanity-losing series of sessions that end with half of the team dead and the others too insane to be believed. Done! I'll report back when I've finished. It'd probably go better than my ultimately abandoned Rogue Trader game.
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Feb 13, 2012 16:00
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Ze Pollack posted:The reason human technology is so resilient is that -everything- is on some level vaguely aware, and the reason the Tech-Priests perform rites that seem to our (woefully primitive) understanding to be pointless is because those are, in fact, the best ways to deal with the fantastically advanced technology of forty thousand years in the future. This is more in line with ork technology, which is probably one of the best things about 40k. The principle was that It works coz I says it do, and that the collective ork race generated enough psychic energy to back this up. If a mek put a huge barrel on your gun, and said it made bigger and harder bullets come out, that's what would happen. There was an underpinning psychic relationship between orks and reality. This is why the red ones go faster and the blue ones are lucky. Mad boyz were crazy orks whose delusions manifested in actual crazy effects. It was kind of the same principle, really. I'd like to see them come back, but I'm not holding my breath. There's an anecdote in a story where a guardsman tries to use a dead ork's slugga, but it's a junk toy approximation of a weapon in his hands. I loved this about orks. It justified comical orks without breaking the setting's tone.
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Feb 14, 2012 04:35
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moths posted:This is more in line with ork technology, which is probably one of the best things about 40k. The principle was that It works coz I says it do, and that the collective ork race generated enough psychic energy to back this up. If a mek put a huge barrel on your gun, and said it made bigger and harder bullets come out, that's what would happen. There was an underpinning psychic relationship between orks and reality. This is why the red ones go faster and the blue ones are lucky. God damnit this is not how that works
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Feb 14, 2012 04:37
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It used to be.
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Feb 14, 2012 04:40
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S.J. posted:God damnit this is not how that works Sorry but it pretty much is. Everyone knows the red ones go faster.
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Feb 14, 2012 04:50
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Angry Diplomat posted:Sorry but it pretty much is. Everyone knows the red ones go faster. I will fight you 
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Feb 14, 2012 04:53
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S.J. posted:I will fight you That's why boxing gloves are red - faster punches.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:20
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Why is everyone in this thread so wrong. S.J., you're the ork guy, explain to everyone how it's a matter of genetics. Genetics!
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Feb 14, 2012 05:25
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Locomotive breath posted:Why is everyone in this thread so wrong. S.J., you're the ork guy, explain to everyone how it's a matter of genetics. Genetics! Just because some idiot Magos who probably couldn't even figure out how a loving lasgun works can't also figure out how Orks make their non-standardized ramshackle weaponry work, doesn't mean that his literally baseless theory about how ork technology must work because they think it does has any merit, because it doesn't  Basically what I'm saying is, Ork tech works despite the fact that Orks might not be able to explain it to you because it comes as naturally to them as breathing does to us. It isn't something you think about, it's something you do, and there's no way for you to know whether or not Ork vehicles go faster because they're red, or red vehicles go faster because orks paint the fast ones red, or because a Mek knew he just made a bad-rear end vehicle that is hella fast and he wanted to make sure it was red so everyone knew about it
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Feb 14, 2012 05:33
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S.J. posted:Just because some idiot Magos who probably couldn't even figure out how a loving lasgun works can't also figure out how Orks make their non-standardized ramshackle weaponry work, doesn't mean that his literally baseless theory about how ork technology must work because they think it does has any merit, because it doesn't I bet you don't believe in God, either.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:51
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How do you address the fact that frequently something that works fine for an ork will fall apart when a non-ork tries to use it?
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Feb 14, 2012 05:53
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Zereth posted:How do you address the fact that frequently something that works fine for an ork will fall apart when a non-ork tries to use it? They don't know how it works (we're talking about humans here because all of this is written from a human POV), because humans don't even know how their own poo poo works, and Ork tech has zero standardization. How else would someone who believes that their lasgun literally has a spirit inside of it interpret what the Orks are doing? Probably via religious mumbo jumbo, ie, warp powers.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:59
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I love the "orks are psychic" idea as a goofy alternative explanation, but yeah a guardsman picking up an ork's gun is like if a guy who knows nothing about cars or even engines (aside from how to make his Civic "go") hopped in a country-rear end junker with an ignition switch inside the glovebox and a standard transmission (which he's never even heard of), and immediately jumped to the conclusion that it must require some kind of hill-people witchcraft to operate. ed: 
Pharmaskittle fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 08:08
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In the DH and RT rules, at least, Ork weapons do automatically work a little better in Ork hands- typically they gain the Unreliable trait if a non-Ork uses them. They still work, though.
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Feb 14, 2012 08:15
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All I know is my Ork in my Rogue Trader campaign has a blinking red incandescent bulb on his shoota, and it definitely makes it more accurate.
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Feb 14, 2012 09:20
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S.J. posted:They don't know how it works (we're talking about humans here because all of this is written from a human POV), because humans don't even know how their own poo poo works, and Ork tech has zero standardization. How else would someone who believes that their lasgun literally has a spirit inside of it interpret what the Orks are doing? Probably via religious mumbo jumbo, ie, warp powers. Except the lasgun literally does have a spirit in it and also so does the Ork shoota, but the shoota's spirit is just a little bit of the Waaagh channeling through the user to manifest in his gun like some sort of shamanistic totem, rather than a discrete metaphysical entity with its own simplistic will and demeanour (The actual answer is that both explanations are completely literally correct, just at different times and under different situations depending on which bit of the lore you're looking at. 40k fluff  )
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Feb 14, 2012 14:54
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S.J. posted:How else would someone who believes that their lasgun literally has a spirit inside of it interpret what the Orks are doing? Alternate explaination: the orks instinctively know how to placate their stuff's very real machine spirits, in an instinctively scientific way, while human beings do not. Hodgepodge posted:In the DH and RT rules, at least, Ork weapons do automatically work a little better in Ork hands- typically they gain the Unreliable trait if a non-Ork uses them. They still work, though. right but isn't it more likely that orks, a species of creatures genetically engineered to know how to build technical marvels instinctively, also know how to use those technical marvels instinctively? rather than ork magic making it work through retarded force of belief. it's kind of a fine line if you assume that Machine Spirits are real things that the 40th millenium is totally right about, but it's still more interesting than "magic makes this happen, also everyone ever is a moron" Liesmith fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 16:54
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Do Gork and Mork have a warp presence as manifestation of the gestalt ork psychic ability and emotions in the same way chaos gods shadow more civil species' emotions? Because when your entire psychological makeup is a continum measured from "cunning" to "brutality" they're about what you'd expect as gods.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:50
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moths posted:Do Gork and Mork have a warp presence as manifestation of the gestalt ork psychic ability and emotions in the same way chaos gods shadow more civil species' emotions? Because when your entire psychological makeup is a continum measured from "cunning" to "brutality" they're about what you'd expect as gods. Yes. In fact, Gork and Mork beat up the chaos gods from time to time when they're feeling bored. That's how many loving Orks there are.
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Feb 14, 2012 19:12
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Every Gork and Mork myth starts with them getting bored and beating someone up, and ends with "And that's why orks are awesome in THIS way."
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Feb 14, 2012 19:14
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Ork theology owns. Is there any talk anywhere of an ork-centric RPG? There ought to be.
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Feb 14, 2012 20:02
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