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DarkCrawler posted:I've just never understood why the PRC has such a problem with independent Taiwan, as in the state being called "Taiwan" without "China" written anywhere in the laws or the constitution or the declaration of independence or whatever. If they have a hard-on for "One China", then let them have exactly that? I just find it ridicolous that we have this developed, populated and rich first world state that nobody recognizes officially. It seems like the opposite position would be more feasible for a final settlement of the issue though: for Taiwan to accede to being part of the PRC's One China in name, but not in deed, like some kind of Super-SAR.
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Feb 16, 2012 01:27
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Great thread. On the topic of religion in the OP, there's a wonderful (free online) book written by David Jordan called Gods, ghosts and ancestors: folk religion in a Taiwanese village. It's an anthropologist's account of the religious mix of a Taiwanese village and serves as a peek into traditional (diverse) Chinese religious practices. Particularly interesting in the context of some persistent and resurgent mainland beliefs/practices and some of the more interesting stuff happening in Hong Kong. On general overviews/histories, I'd throw in Immanuel Hsu's The Rise of Modern China alongside Spence, Gernet and Fairbank. Spence has a wonderful little collection of translated primary source documents to read alongside The Search for Modern China. Spence is a great read and easygoing with a bit of a Jesuit obsession. I'd take Hsu and Gernet are both heavygoing but worth reading for the dedicated. If anyone's interested in more academic reading on a variety of issues, the Uni of Warwick History Dept has its reading lists available for all the seminars (and some suggested essay titles) for its Chinese history undergrad module on its site here: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/history/undergraduate/modules/hi154/ <-- some of the links mentioned in the lists are outdated but there's some good thematic reading if you can get a hold of some of the books/have access to JStor. Shaun Breslin who's a professor of Politics and International Studies at Warwick has some of his research papers available online on this Warwick site. He's worth a look at. Barmy as anything, but a great lecturer. It'd be great to have a list of (non-sensitive, I guess) Twitter/Sina Weibo accounts to follow. Eg Kim Jensen of Kinablog mentioned above is available on Twitter @kinablog. @NiuB is a good source of interesting blogs and news. @KaiserKuo works in Beijing for BaiDu and has some great links/commentary on Chinese tech developments. *edit* And while the golden age of silly propaganda may be over, there's a huge amount of awful propaganda on the media that people watching don't buy into. The CCTV celebration of Chinese New Year is essentially four hours of patriotic guff hammering home whatever's the popular message this year. E.g. one of the sketches was essentially "You want to go to the west to succeed? Lol look at the failed economy!". BTW for those joining post-OP on the second page, watch the link Cefte posted. The guy is an infamous douchebag who illustrates how horrible Chinese supremacism can be. Worst line - "'Fragrant Port' [the meaning of 'Hong Kong']? More like 'Smelly Port'!". Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 01:50
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eSports Chaebol posted:It seems like the opposite position would be more feasible for a final settlement of the issue though: for Taiwan to accede to being part of the PRC's One China in name, but not in deed, like some kind of Super-SAR. I see this as happening relatively soon, if Taiwan undergoes a major natural or economic disaster. China was already a huge player in helping with the series of typhoons a couple years ago, and it was only the close relationship with the China market that kept Taiwan even remotely afloat when the banking, currency and finance markets tanked in 1997, 2001, and 2008. Visas have been getting easier over time, especially business visas, too. So while it will never be lovey-dovey, I can see political independence with economic, military, and diplomatic co-dependence someplace in the middle-term future (30-50 years). So here's a timg of my representation of most of the major organs on the party-side and state-side of China's dual-track government:  and here it is on Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/doc/81765973/China-Govt-3 For the folks who asked. In terms of coding: boxes that are red are party organizations, boxes that are green are state organizations. Green with a red border means most of the membership is Party, but policy is only indirectly made by the Party and some internal autonomy remains. Red arrows represent powerful controlling relationships within the CCP -- for example, the CCP Central Committee is represented through the Politburo and the Secretariat separately, but they're interrelated, with the Politburo doing policy coordination and the Secretariat administration and party business. Therefore the Central Committee is at the top, the Politburo Standing Committee (the 24 most influential people in the party!) just below it, with the Secretariat off to the side connected to both. BrotherAdso fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 01:55
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This is shaping up to be a great thread. Here is another reading list, as my meager contribution.
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Feb 16, 2012 02:02
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eSports Chaebol posted:It seems like the opposite position would be more feasible for a final settlement of the issue though: for Taiwan to accede to being part of the PRC's One China in name, but not in deed, like some kind of Super-SAR. At the risk of derailing the thread, here's my NT$2 on the issue as a Taiwanese-American currently serving in the ROC military. It seems almost natural these days for people looking at the China-Taiwan issue to focus almost entirely on the PRC position. And of course, it does seem natural to focus on the PRC's position on the issue, since essentially the initiative on the issue is mostly controlled by Beijing. But I find that this results to the position and opinions of people in Taiwan relegated to a brief footnote, if even that. International media coverage of Taiwan is sporadic, at best, usually consisting of a few reporters from Beijing or Hong Kong bureaus parachuted into Taipei around election time, spend a few days in the city, and assume that they've seen all of Taiwan, crouching everything in terms of the KMT-CCP Civil War even though only around 15% of the current population traces ancestry to the 1949 migration (a distinction that has become less and less important as the '49-ers die out). The population of Taiwan is currently 23 million, slightly greater than Australia, about 3 times that of Hong Kong, and twice that of Portugal. So here you've got 23 million people accustomed to living in a de facto independent state with its own elected government accountable only to them, armed forces, a really nice public health care system, and all those other trappings that people in other countries take for granted. Not to mention a fair amount of pride in where they're from, and a continuing level of resentment at Beijing's attempts to push unification (not just limited to the pro-TI green camp). People here look at how One Country Two Systems is going in Hong Kong (universal suffrage for the HK Legislative Council delayed yet again, tensions between HK-ers and mainland migrants) and see little appeal in becoming just another SAR. Now yes, if it comes down to raw power and population, the 23 million here are dwarfed by the 1.3 billion across the strait. But how seriously invested in the idea of a PRC controlled Taiwan is a farmer in Shanxi, compared to resistance to that idea by a farmer in Tainan? Riding the train back home from base I often run into the many PRC tourists visiting Taiwan, and am constantly asked if I can loan them the newspaper I'm reading after I'm done, while they talk in amazed tones about what they've seen. With the level of cross straits exchange increasing, people from the PRC are increasingly exposed to the idea that most people in Taiwan are in favor of good relations, but not unification. So in conclusion, I have no idea how things will pan out in the future. Maybe unification will happen on Beijing's terms as some in this thread think it will, or maybe the PRC will change. At the risk of sounding emotional, all I can say is that as far as I'm concerned, each day not spent under PRC rule is a victory for us.
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Feb 16, 2012 02:55
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skysedge posted:Riding the train back home from base I often run into the many PRC tourists visiting Taiwan.... This just blew my mind. I had no idea citizens of the PRC could travel to Taiwan. I would think the PRC wouldn't want that, no? What exactly is the PRC's policy on tourism and travel by citizens? Do people have any limited rights? Places they can't go a la US-Cuba? Is it just prohibitively expensive for most people?
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Feb 16, 2012 03:05
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Riptor posted:This just blew my mind. I had no idea citizens of the PRC could travel to Taiwan. I would think the PRC wouldn't want that, no? PRC citizens have been able to visit Taiwan in large group tours for the last couple of years, and as independent travelers since last year. There are also a small number of PRC students studying at universities here, with talk of increasing the quota allowed. From what I understand, approval is required from PRC authorities, while on our side its more or less a standard tourist visa app (only not called a "visa"). The interest in these things from this side of the strait is mostly economic, while many of the PRC tourists come expecting to see ether a Cold War ROC theme park (much like western tourists find North Korea), or that surreal place where all those TV dramas are filmed. Many are surprised that modern day Taiwan is generally neither (but the night markets and scenery rock!). skysedge fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 03:26
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Taiwanese desire for unification is really slow, like around 5-8% or lower, so I don't see them being that interested in unification. At the same time, the PRC seems to be contend to play the waiting game and tolerate the ROC pretty much indefinitely. In fact, as internal economic tensions continue to rise the issue of unification will probably be pushed to the far back burner. In addition, the PRC has a ton to lose in economic and diplomatic terms if it actually thought about attacking Taiwan. A the PRC has risen as a regional if not world power, it suddenly has a lot of other issues at stake than just Taiwan. Anyway, cross-strait relations might be one of the least interesting things going on, the real event is that Chinese growth might radically slow this year. However, it is unlikely that prices will decline or even cease to continue inflating. The government has talked about reinflating the property market to keep things moving, but that seems pretty insane at the moment. Japan/South Korea/Taiwan when they were growing they relied on protectionism and the United States as a ready market for their goods. But not only is the PRC bigger than all three of those countries combined, but it's period of expansion has occurred when American consumers have largely gone broke. I think it is fairly likely that the PRC might be stuck in sort of a limbo state, it is half-industrialized with many of the issues of a country undergoing an industrial revolution but is in a world with increasingly more expensive energy and ha a dwindling export market. In addition, within that market they are facing competition from more efficient fully industrialized economies and from more undeveloped countries with lower wages. I don't see them having the same "easy" path to growth like Japan/South Korea had, in fact it might be pretty rocky from here on out.
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Feb 16, 2012 03:39
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Throwing in my two-cents on the Taiwan-China issue is that Taiwan can go only more or less as it is. China, however, is obsessed with reunification. This is partially cultural, as the belief that all areas of Chinese culture should be unified under one government, and partially political, as the government is deeply concerned about a break-up a la the USSR and they don't want Taiwan to be an example of autonomy. Also, french lies, hopefully I'll have that blurbs done for you tonight.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:13
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skysedge posted:... First of all, thank you for bringing a well thought out and well written opinion from the ground level to the thread. This is really valuable input. As far as the ROC viewpoint on the sovereignty issue -- do you feel like you are unusually politically involved and interested by virtue of being in the military or well educated? Because while you have a great deal of interest in independence and Taiwanese national pride, is your level of interest mirrored by the poor noodle-seller in the night market or the 7-11 clerks and managers or the native Taiwanese villagers? You do have to face the same question that the Chinese face with your hypothetical farmer in Shaanxi with the population of Taiwan, ultimately. Second, I absolutely agree that the HK experience with "one country, two systems" has been a disheartening, disillusioning failure for the Hong Kong political class and middle class. Do you feel like most Taiwanese see the same thing happening there in the event of closer administrative, social, and economic ties with the mainland? Or do you and others see a way forward that avoids the kind of political strangling that has gone on in Taiwan? Finally, how has cross straits exchange begun effecting Taiwanese? While Chinese folks may seem amazed at the things they see in more open media in Taiwan, are Taiwanese horrified/amazed when they travel to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and other major commercial hubs? My opinion on the slow course of changing ties between the two entities is a couple posts up, and I would really like your commentary on it, too.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:16
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BrotherAdso posted:
Taiwan has conscription.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:20
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Ardennes posted:Taiwanese desire for unification is really slow, like around 5-8% or lower, so I don't see them being that interested in unification. I disagree! While there's no stupid Tom Clancy thriller stuff in the future, cross-strait relations will remain interesting because Taiwan represents a significant source of talent, technology, and contact/capital/investment streams to other Asian nations and the West for nascent companies and government agencies in the PRC. Stronger economic and social ties with Taiwan are not only a PR win for the People's Republic, but they also represent somewhat outsized economic/trade gains, making Strait relations an important area. Taiwan, too, has to delicately balance its policy and politics distance from the mainland while taking maximum advantage of their economic and cultural relationship to keep its own economy afloat. Ardennes posted:The government has talked about reinflating the property market to keep things moving, but that seems pretty insane at the moment. I agree China is facing a really thorny set of problems when it comes to economic growth and momentum. However, I think you're underestimating the depth of the Party's response plan to these challenges. The PRC is giving a try at implementing a half-dozen major policy initiatives aimed at curbing the impact of export downturns and soften the housing bubble. Now, like everything, they have corruption, bias, and other problems, but they aren't sitting painfully oblivious or crippled by regulatory capture the way the US was before 2008.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:26
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Throatwarbler posted:Taiwan has conscription. Yes, but a substantial number of draftees: 1) Don't take their twelve months (recently reduced) too seriously -- at least, that's the impression I have ancedotally, and I have no data to back it up. Their continuing push to go volunteer seems to support my idea though. 2) Have other options, just like in Korea. I'll let him contribute, but he either chose or got military service instead of the many other alternate civil service routes. If he wants to explain his background, I'll be curious if he went in at 19 or got a deferment for education.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:31
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BrotherAdso posted:I disagree! While there's no stupid Tom Clancy thriller stuff in the future, cross-strait relations will remain interesting because Taiwan represents a significant source of talent, technology, and contact/capital/investment streams to other Asian nations and the West for nascent companies and government agencies in the PRC. Stronger economic and social ties with Taiwan are not only a PR win for the People's Republic, but they also represent somewhat outsized economic/trade gains, making Strait relations an important area. Taiwan, too, has to delicately balance its policy and politics distance from the mainland while taking maximum advantage of their economic and cultural relationship to keep its own economy afloat. "Interesting" is subjective, I agree it will probably be more of the same but I don't see any major change (unification/indepdence) happening even in the medium term if not longer. At this point it is pretty much agreed that independence is effectively off the table, and I think even the Greens have realized this. It is unfair and probably undemocratic but there is just too much pressure from all sides. That said, I don't see any real "path" to unification either especially since there just isn't any support for it in Taiwan. quote:I agree China is facing a really thorny set of problems when it comes to economic growth and momentum. However, I think you're underestimating the depth of the Party's response plan to these challenges. The PRC is giving a try at implementing a half-dozen major policy initiatives aimed at curbing the impact of export downturns and soften the housing bubble. Now, like everything, they have corruption, bias, and other problems, but they aren't sitting painfully oblivious or crippled by regulatory capture the way the US was before 2008. Ultimately, it is doubtful ANY current government could really keep up growth on the same level China has considering what is happening. Ultimately, they would need massive public work projects EVEN greater than the currently are conducting and considering the very real problems they have been having with their current projects it is something to think about. I don't see any real reason to have faith that the CCP is going to overcome the issues that have developing especially since they are going to be a lighting rod for criticism. Even while things are still "good", people (from a foreign perspective admittedly) seem more and more disgruntled with the standard of living and taken a very "the grass is always greener" look at things. One problem with industrial revolutions is rising expectations, people expect rewards for sacrifice. By and large things have been good enough where at least there is enough improvement that people's anger has been controlled, but a persist drop below double digit gdp growth is going to change that especially since vast regions of China are still impoverished and you got tens of millions of migrant workers looking for jobs.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:48
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First off great opening post, really informative and interesting to read, a lot of resources there. I have a question for anyone more familiar with Chinese culture that I've been meaning to get answered - what role does comedy play in Chinese society? Comedy is a big part of life and culture for basically all humankind, but the form it takes and the roles it plays can tell you a lot about a society. A certain irony, sarcasm, and cynicism as we get in the West speaks in part to our democratic sensibilities. We don't take ourselves too seriously, and over-seriousness or caring too much about an issue is often disparaged as lacking a sense of humour. I've had a lot of contact with Chinese nationals at school and Chinese immigrants in the cities I've lived in, but it's generally been hard to connect. Comedy, especially, seems like the biggest barrier, even moreso than with the Japanese or Koreans I've met. Any insights here?
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Feb 16, 2012 04:48
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BrotherAdso posted:Yes, but a substantial number of draftees: Also, it's unusual for people with American citizenship (who primarily live in the states) to serve in the conscription. Many just use their American passports and get if they live there, get separate visas, never claiming an ID card. Also, with the phaseout of conscription, there's the option of waiting until conscription is over. I'd bet there's a good reason for that poster to be serving.
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Feb 16, 2012 04:49
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BrotherAdso posted:First of all, thank you for bringing a well thought out and well written opinion from the ground level to the thread. This is really valuable input. And thank you for letting me sound off on it. BrotherAdso posted:As far as the ROC viewpoint on the sovereignty issue -- do you feel like you are unusually politically involved and interested by virtue of being in the military or well educated? Because while you have a great deal of interest in independence and Taiwanese national pride, is your level of interest mirrored by the poor noodle-seller in the night market or the 7-11 clerks and managers or the native Taiwanese villagers? You do have to face the same question that the Chinese face with your hypothetical farmer in Shaanxi with the population of Taiwan, ultimately. This is a fair question, and yes, I consider myself more politically engaged than most, although not on the level of being one of those people who shows up at campaign rallies or can't talk about anything but politics 24/7. As for being in the military, I am a draftee in my late 20s currently fulfilling my 1 year service obligation. For what its worth, I'm an enlisted airman stationed at an air defense missile battery on constant high alert. This is not considered to be a cushy position, and my fellow airmen have backgrounds ranging from grad school to high school dropout, so I'd like to think that I have regular exposure to a decently-sized cross section of young people here. I'd say that there is an overwhelming consensous here that we'd prefer to remain separate from the PRC, although we all differ on whether such a thing is feasible in the long term, or how best to pursue ties with the PRC without giving them more leverage than they have. Few argue for outright independence now, and even fewer for unification. Again, right now the consensus seems to be to ride things out for as long as possible. The overriding concern for many people here is the economy, which has been one of the main arguments for the increased level of PRC tourism, as well as the ECFA (Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement - sort of a preferential trade agreement) signed between Taipei and Beijing in 2010. The general opinion is that it has been good for corporations with large business operations in the PRC, and large tour / hotel operators. However, despite growth in GDP, the distribution has been non-uniform with income disparity growing in recent years. There is also a considerable amount of apprehension about the loss of jobs as the manufacturing industry outsources across the strait, as well as the loss of proprietary technology, and giving the PRC more leverage. Additionally, part of the rationale from the Ma Administration in pushing ECFA was that it would lead to the signing of free trade agreements with other countries - a major concern since Taiwan is excluded from ASEAN+6. There has been little progress on that front so far (it is believed that Beijing opposes such moves, since they would decrease economic reliance on the PRC). Ma has recently stated his intent to pursue membership in the U.S.-led Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), though again, there are challenges to that as well. As I mentioned earlier, even the KMT's official position that they've been campaigning on is on safeguarding Taiwanese sovereignty (through that of the ROC), while delivering economic benefits through trade with the PRC. If safeguarding ROC/Taiwan sovereignty was not an issue that resonated with the majority of the electorate, I doubt they'd go out of their way to emphasize it as strongly as they do. That's the beauty of democracy. BrotherAdso posted:Second, I absolutely agree that the HK experience with "one country, two systems" has been a disheartening, disillusioning failure for the Hong Kong political class and middle class. Do you feel like most Taiwanese see the same thing happening there in the event of closer administrative, social, and economic ties with the mainland? Or do you and others see a way forward that avoids the kind of political strangling that has gone on in Taiwan? Again, there is little doubt amongst most people here that One Country Two Systems is undesirable, as recent events in Hong Kong have shown. The question is how best to avoid it, and whether or not it is indeed avoidable in the long term? I've heard everything from "Finlandization", to an East Asian version of NATO. Part of being a small country is that people here often feel that things are out of our control, as a passive chip in the superpower game. Most of the people I have talked to who support unification (or at least, seem fatalistically passive towards it) do so out of the opinion that there is no way to avoid it, rather than it actually being a desirable state of affairs. Even more people prefer simply to avoid thinking about it (leave it to future generations, they say). For now, the overall opinion seems to be to ride things out for as long as possible, which might as well be defined as a form of Taiwan independence. The mainstream blue viewpoint is that Taiwan is part of the ROC, while the mainstream green view is that the ROC is part of Taiwan. Subtle differences, but not too difficult to reconcile for most people. BrotherAdso posted:Finally, how has cross straits exchange begun effecting Taiwanese? While Chinese folks may seem amazed at the things they see in more open media in Taiwan, are Taiwanese horrified/amazed when they travel to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and other major commercial hubs? The level of cross-straits interchange has been increasing continuously, although this has also been paralleled by a continuous increase in Taiwanese identity. Many people have visited the PRC, and/or have business ties in the PRC. This is anecdotal, but again, this seems to be driven more by economic interests (there are tons of reports on how "you too can get rich quick in China"). There is no flood of Taishang (Taiwanese businessmen) rushing to apply for PRC citizenship. The PRC is typically viewed as being a place of great power and growth potential, but also great income disparity, unstable and corrupt beneath the surface, with Byzantine political power struggles hidden behind closed doors. PRC folk, especially tourists, are often stereotyped as being loud, with little respect for rules or tact (but loaded with cash). There is often genuine public outrage over real or perceived slights from PRC visitors, and stories of PRC tourists or students demanding that the ROC flag be removed wherever they go, or making loud proclamations along the lines of "looking forward to the unification of the motherland" . Its probably not fair to tar all PRC citizens with the same brush, but again, I suppose it is human nature to focus on the 1 person who is being unpleasant, rather then the 5 people who aren't. Edit: To address your last point: Yes, the PRC has offered aid several times during natural disasters in the past. However there is enough distrust about Beijing's intentions that it is politically impossible for the government to accept all but a token amount. Having the PLA deliver the aid is straight off the table. skysedge fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 05:17
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shots shots shots posted:Also, it's unusual for people with American citizenship (who primarily live in the states) to serve in the conscription. Many just use their American passports and get if they live there, get separate visas, never claiming an ID card. Also, with the phaseout of conscription, there's the option of waiting until conscription is over. A sense of civic duty, plus an intention to settle permanently in Taiwan where the rest of my family lives when I'm done.  Its not common, but far from rare these days.
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Feb 16, 2012 05:19
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skysedge posted:A sense of civic duty, plus an intention to settle permanently in Taiwan where the rest of my family lives when I'm done. The usual scheme is for your family to hold your ID card while you secure a separate ARC. Your family then uses your ID for various forms of tax evasion. Since Taiwan has no official relations, you can be two separate people. The US doesn't even tell Taiwan about all the Taiwanese politicians who hold dual citizenship.
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Feb 16, 2012 05:37
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shots shots shots posted:The usual scheme is for your family to hold your ID card while you secure a separate ARC. Your family then uses your ID for various forms of tax evasion. Since Taiwan has no official relations, you can be two separate people. The US doesn't even tell Taiwan about all the Taiwanese politicians who hold dual citizenship. Yes, another scheme is to simply apply for expatriate status, which means that you're not subject to conscription as long as you don't stay for longer than 6 months at a time (visa run ahoy!). I figured that I'd rather not leave the country twice a year for the rest of my life, just to avoid 1 year of service. Besides, I figured that if any country on Earth has justification for conscription, the ROC/Taiwan is it. I could go on and on about all the bullshit I've seen in the military, but somehow, we manage to make do in the end. I don't regret deciding to serve, even if I do wish the environment could have been better.
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Feb 16, 2012 05:42
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BrotherAdso posted:Yes, but a substantial number of draftees: The quality of ROC military units varies depending where you go. As a general rule, the units comprised almost entirely of volunteers tend to be very professional and squared away, while the conscript heavy units tend to be less so (National Guard levels of quality or below). As you mentioned, the trend is now to go to an all volunteer force by 2014, although males reaching draft age will still be subject to 4 months basic training. There's a common saying amongst draftees here: "Nothing is real except your discharge papers". Most of us would rather be doing something else, but for better or worse, here we are. From my experience in what I'd subjectively term as a substandard backwater combat unit, many conscripts (and even some career troops, unfortunately) do nothing except the bare minimum, if even that. On the other hand, there are always troops who do their best to keep things running, in spite of the former group. BrotherAdso posted:2) Have other options, just like in Korea. I'll let him contribute, but he either chose or got military service instead of the many other alternate civil service routes. If he wants to explain his background, I'll be curious if he went in at 19 or got a deferment for education. There is alternative service for those who qualify (physical disability, special talents, nepotism), but most draftees still end up in the military. Conscripts ending up in the military are usually considered unskilled labor, with more technical / demanding billets reserved for career troops. Most draftees would prefer to end up as REMFs. I speak English and Mandarin with native levels of fluency, having grown up in both the US and Taiwan, and have an advanced degree in engineering. Everyone in basic was convinced I'd end up as an REMF. For some reason or another, I didn't, and ended up as a grunt. When I reported to my current unit, my CO (who had already seen my file) asked me straight out: "What on Earth are you doing here?". After talking to some colleagues from basic who ended up as REMFs, and spend their days riding desks, I don't regret it. Anyhow, I'm headed back on duty today. Thanks for this thread, I'll be following with interest the next time I'm out on leave (assuming it doesn't get deferred again!).
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Feb 16, 2012 06:14
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Dolash posted:First off great opening post, really informative and interesting to read, a lot of resources there. I have no idea what point you are making, that Chinese are not funny? I have no idea. Have you heard of Stephen Chow? He is basically like Jim Carrey but more talented. Try From Beijing with Love. Comedy doesn't translate well across culture is not a new thing, comedy make too many reference to the current events and people of its own culture. Only physical comedy translation well to the international market. Just take a look at "SNL movies", they don't sell oversea.
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Feb 16, 2012 07:30
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skysedge posted:The quality of ROC military units varies depending where you go. As a general rule, the units comprised almost entirely of volunteers tend to be very professional and squared away, while the conscript heavy units tend to be less so (National Guard levels of quality or below). As you mentioned, the trend is now to go to an all volunteer force by 2014, although males reaching draft age will still be subject to 4 months basic training. Hey thanks for your posts. I'm really happy you chose to serve. I have a lot of Taiwanese friends and happen to have a vested interest in seeing Taiwan remain outside of the PRC sphere. Where I live in Canada a lot of mainland people have started settling here and almost all of them have poo poo opinions about Taiwan that amount to them treating it like it's their personal property. The mainland disregard for Taiwanese people, their self determination and their sovereignty is quite frankly disgusting and it's people like you that are a reminder to them that you guys aren't going to just bend over and take it.
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Feb 16, 2012 09:00
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Adar posted:I'm not an expert about China proper, but as the resident professional gambler, here are some words about Macau: quote:It'd be great to have a list of (non-sensitive, I guess) Twitter/Sina Weibo accounts to follow. Eg Kim Jensen of Kinablog mentioned above is available on Twitter @kinablog. @NiuB is a good source of interesting blogs and news. @KaiserKuo works in Beijing for BaiDu and has some great links/commentary on Chinese tech developments.
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Feb 16, 2012 09:47
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Dolash posted:First off great opening post, really informative and interesting to read, a lot of resources there. Chinese people are just as funny as anyone else. Double-meanings, subtlety and saying something without actually saying it at all is a pretty important part of social interaction in China, and also a great leaping-off point for humor. I've definitely had Chinese people cracking up around me when I am clueless, even though I understood the joke on the surface level. Sarcasm and irony are honed to a pretty fine edge in Chinese culture. China has a strong tradition of stand-up comedy duos that are pretty much instantly recognizable to Westerners as the classic straight-man funny-man team, and I think they must be funny even though I can rarely understand their banter because Chinese people lose their poo poo listening to them on the radio. I've actually been worried about a taxi driver's attention to the road at one point because he was laughing so hard at the show on the radio. Chinese as a language is absolutely full of homonyms, which makes puns really common. Add in the standard slang double-meanings any language has and you can say something very, very different from the literal meaning of the words actually coming out of your mouth. This isn't really different from other languages I guess but the number of homophones in Chinese just makes it even more prevalent. I did an entire presentation on dirty puns in Chinese once, and I have to say theirs are more inventive than ours. I think the Chinese can seem humorless to outside observers sometime because Chinese have a strong sense of decorum and will act very differently in formal setting and informal settings. This is a big part of Chinese culture that you realize very soon when you live in China. Chinese people have a definite "in" group and an "out" group in their lives. The same person who is impassive or cold or stingy to a stranger can be a warm, expressive person to his friends, and will almost always be generous. I think some westerners have never seen the inside of those social circles and get the idea that Chinese are quiet and impassive. The reality is that they can be really drat loud and forward, to the point that even Americans get annoyed sometimes. There's no doubt a lot more to humor in Chinese culture; I haven't included everything I've seen in this post and I'm sure all my personal knowledge is only scratching the surface. The point is Chinese people are funny, but you sometimes have to get to know them before they will show it. With respect to "taking yourself seriously" the Chinese have an almost supernatural ability to pretend everything's fine in almost any situation, and this extends itself to settings where people are supposed to be taken seriously. Speeches and whatnot that I've seen are always taken with absolute seriousness and and attention and respect, and the speaker is usually serious to the point of melodrama even for fairly routine announcements. Afterwards when you ask people about it they'll laugh or shrug or generally tell you what they really thought, but in the event everyone at least pretends that everything is serious and nothing is funny. In fact I've asked the people who actually wrote the speech and got up and said it in front of an audience, and they don't take it too seriously either, they just say that's what official speech sounds like in China. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Feb 16, 2012 |
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Feb 16, 2012 09:59
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Brennanite posted:Throwing in my two-cents on the Taiwan-China issue is that Taiwan can go only more or less as it is. China, however, is obsessed with reunification. This is partially cultural, as the belief that all areas of Chinese culture should be unified under one government, and partially political, as the government is deeply concerned about a break-up a la the USSR and they don't want Taiwan to be an example of autonomy. My impression from chatting to people is that China really favours the status quo. There's no particular appetite for reunification, but there's the simultaneous notion that if Taiwan declares independence or whatever China would be obligated to act. I don't think anyone in the leadership is deluded as to what the de facto status is, but neither do they want to set a precedent by visibly letting go of Taiwan.
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Feb 16, 2012 19:19
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iSuck posted:How liberal is the drug law in practice? More liberal than America's with regard to harmless drugs such as weed, shrooms, etc. Don't even mention opiates, though, even in casual company.
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Feb 16, 2012 21:16
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Longanimitas posted:More liberal than America's with regard to harmless drugs such as weed, shrooms, etc. Don't even mention opiates, though, even in casual company. I'm not surprised about the opiates but I am surprised by the "harmless" drugs. I figured it would be more like Korea or Japan and have a huge stigma even on weed (while drinking like fish in Korea or secretly taking meth in Japan).
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Feb 17, 2012 01:35
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I keep variously hearing that China's economy is running towards a crash, or that any prospective bubbles are being successfully deflated. Does anyone have insight into the real nature and issues of China's economy right now? I realise this is broad.
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Feb 17, 2012 01:42
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They've built entire cities in the middle of nowhere from scratch in anticipation of large growth only to see them abandoned or very lightly inhabited. There is definitely some kind of asset price bubble going on and no amount of deflation is going to hide the truth that real-estate is over supplied and over priced.
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Feb 17, 2012 02:02
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Peel posted:I keep variously hearing that China's economy is running towards a crash, or that any prospective bubbles are being successfully deflated. Does anyone have insight into the real nature and issues of China's economy right now? I realise this is broad. The general impression I have is that instead of papering over the huge wealth inequality that we do here in the U.S.A, China is going on a building/investment spree and forcing loans from the national banks to make it happen. When it all crashes, I suppose that China will have some infrastructure for people to hop into and make use out of it, while the credit system unfucks itself.
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Feb 17, 2012 02:30
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LP97S posted:I'm not surprised about the opiates but I am surprised by the "harmless" drugs. I figured it would be more like Korea or Japan and have a huge stigma even on weed (while drinking like fish in Korea or secretly taking meth in Japan). I would say there is a major stigma on marijuana, socially. I mean, when celebrities get caught using marijuana is seems to be a significantly bigger deal there, and a lot of people seem to lump it in with all other drugs. But according to what I just found, if I'm not misreading, you need to be in possession of pretty serious quantities of marijuana (I've already forgotten the amount, but I think it was in the 60-70 lbs. range!) before you start getting into sentences lasting years. Of course, that's only if there is no proof that you're smuggling or selling it, and quantity might be considered proof enough.
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Feb 17, 2012 02:36
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Good lord that's a great OP and a great rundown of the party apparatus. I will try to eventually get a post in about the Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century, as asked by the OP, but from reading this thread it seems like I'm probably the 10th most knowledgeable person in the thread about Chinese history. I don't have any of my books with me cuz I've been exiled to some shitbird institute in Tianjin for the next two weeks. As a quick aside, when people start going off about secular wars and how many they killed, the Taiping is a good example to bring up about Christians killing people. The leader was a failed mandarin who had a vision during a fever, and though of himself as Jesus's younger brother. Estimates are 20 million died in the 20 years or so of the conflicts. It's kind of a glib way to play gotcha over the deaths of so many people, but there it is. The book I'd recommend and as mentioned in the OP is "God's Chinese Son" by Jonathan Spence. Anyway great thread and I'll try to get a good post together about the Taiping if it's still relevant in a few weeks.
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Feb 17, 2012 03:54
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Claverjoe posted:The general impression I have is that instead of papering over the huge wealth inequality that we do here in the U.S.A, China is going on a building/investment spree and forcing loans from the national banks to make it happen. When it all crashes, I suppose that China will have some infrastructure for people to hop into and make use out of it, while the credit system unfucks itself. For a lot of this infrastructure they may as well be building pyramids, though- full-size airports in tiny rural districts, cities in the middle of nowhere, development districts running at like 1% capacity. I don't know if it'll be as apocalyptic as some people are saying, but anyone who thinks China is just gonna coast through the end of the bubble is... really optimistic, to say the least.
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Feb 17, 2012 04:06
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Fiendish_Ghoul posted:I would say there is a major stigma on marijuana, socially. I mean, when celebrities get caught using marijuana is seems to be a significantly bigger deal there, and a lot of people seem to lump it in with all other drugs. But according to what I just found, if I'm not misreading, you need to be in possession of pretty serious quantities of marijuana (I've already forgotten the amount, but I think it was in the 60-70 lbs. range!) before you start getting into sentences lasting years. Of course, that's only if there is no proof that you're smuggling or selling it, and quantity might be considered proof enough. Keep in mind that the Chinese legal system is radically different from what most Westerners are used to. They don't even need a criminal conviction to send you to jail because reeducation through labor (RTL) is an administrative procedure, not a criminal one and is enough to send you away for a few years of rear end-busting prison labor or other such "treatment". RTL is pretty commonly used for drug cases and other "soft" crimes. It's still pretty terrible, though arguably still not quite as bad as the US criminal system. It's luck of the draw, really. In some areas, they make efforts to have some sort of compulsory treatment instead of or in addition to labor. Hell, if you live in a particularly corrupt area, you can get RTL just for looking like a druggie/homeless person/loser. I don't think it's fair to say that Chinese law enforcement in regards to stuff like weed is really that much different from the US approach. It's super inconsistent and depends heavily on who you are and where you are. Even for capital criminal crimes, cases are handled extremely quickly and with nothing close to what we would consider "due process" in the US. And keep in mind that plenty of drug crimes carry capital penalties. Hell, they executed that one crazy British guy for heroin smuggling. In general, in fact, don't expect legalities to protect you. "Troublemakers should not be able to hide behind the law" is a real opinion held by many levels of the Chinese justice system. I'll write a separate post in the future detailing the Chinese system's stance on judicial review and stuff like that. As with many other Chinese systems, it's focused on "getting results" as defined by semi-arbitrary metrics and competition. The big drugs in China are heroin, crystal meth, ketamine, and ecstasy. I believe ketamine and other "designer drugs" are still particularly popular among cool kids. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Feb 17, 2012 |
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Feb 17, 2012 04:44
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By the way, I just wanted to point out for anyone who didn't know, since the OP didn't, that the tub of guts at the top of the post is Mao's grandson. Looks like someone needs to take a couple of Long Marches, har har.
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Feb 17, 2012 05:09
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So what's the best way to avoid trouble with the police in China then? It sounds like there are a lot of ways you can get arrested in spite of being mostly harmless to society.
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Feb 17, 2012 05:19
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DerDestroyer posted:So what's the best way to avoid trouble with the police in China then? Carry lots of red envelopes to hand out.
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Feb 17, 2012 05:38
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DerDestroyer posted:So what's the best way to avoid trouble with the police in China then? It sounds like there are a lot of ways you can get arrested in spite of being mostly harmless to society. Be rich and Han. Being white also works much of the time. If you get arrested, make sure to shout who your dad is. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Feb 17, 2012 |
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Feb 17, 2012 05:40
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DerDestroyer posted:So what's the best way to avoid trouble with the police in China then? It sounds like there are a lot of ways you can get arrested in spite of being mostly harmless to society. Glib, generalizations aside, in all reality you'll have more problems with the cops in the US than in China on a every day basis. It's only when things get serious that the troubles with the system pop up.
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Feb 17, 2012 06:07
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