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Good lord that's a great OP and a great rundown of the party apparatus. I will try to eventually get a post in about the Taiping Rebellion in the mid 19th century, as asked by the OP, but from reading this thread it seems like I'm probably the 10th most knowledgeable person in the thread about Chinese history. I don't have any of my books with me cuz I've been exiled to some shitbird institute in Tianjin for the next two weeks. As a quick aside, when people start going off about secular wars and how many they killed, the Taiping is a good example to bring up about Christians killing people. The leader was a failed mandarin who had a vision during a fever, and though of himself as Jesus's younger brother. Estimates are 20 million died in the 20 years or so of the conflicts. It's kind of a glib way to play gotcha over the deaths of so many people, but there it is. The book I'd recommend and as mentioned in the OP is "God's Chinese Son" by Jonathan Spence. Anyway great thread and I'll try to get a good post together about the Taiping if it's still relevant in a few weeks.
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Feb 17, 2012 03:54
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A really good interview with Vamsi Vakulabharanam about how China and India are not based on the same developmental state model of Japan Korea and Taiwan, and thefore are suffering much higher income stratification than those states did at similar points in their development. He's certainly not a fan of the neoliberal model. http://ineteconomics.org/video/30-ways-be-economist/vamsi-vakulabharanam-inequality-asia-local-effects-global-capitalism
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Feb 19, 2012 03:02
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french lies posted:Seriously, don't continue this derail. Either take it to another thread or stop. I think it's useful to compare democratic institutions in the surrounding countries, which China is mostly using for its models. Japan has basically been a functional one party state for almost as long as China has had the PRC in place, whereas democracy in Korea has basically segregated itself along one major issue: relations with North Korea. Besides this, there seems to be a great deal of agreement on the major issues, with younger voters being unsurprisingly somewhat more favorable towards social welfare spending on unemployment and older voters favoring more retirement insurance. I read a lecture on this from Sogang University, but I can't find it just now. I'm not sure if this will be the case for China, as it has a much more hetergenous population than Korea, but it would be interesting to see if more democracy would see a return to the older regional loyalties and identifications, while relying mostly on FP stances to delineate the major divisions among political factions shoudl there be democracy. For this reason, China's leadership is very leery of prospect of incorporating more of public opinion, given that most public opinion seems to align most closely with the opinions of the hawks in the government (Yan Xuetong, for example). It seems that China has tried to walk a very fine line since Tian'anmen with managing nationalism and economic growth as replacement ideologies, but guys like Bo Xilai are trying to lead a resurgence in the old Mao-era slogans and stances. It will be interesting to see how the new regime will try to incorporate these new princelings and pressure to acknowledge opinions they receive from croud sourcing Weibo and other message boards.
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Feb 21, 2012 08:55
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e: ^^^ yeah that's about right. I was thinking of the Yuan Shikai era after Sun Yat-sens' government fell apart, and how that just the possibility of that scenario pretty much scares the crap out of Beijing now. Ronald Spiers posted:I disagree on your assessment that there is a wide consensus among Koreans over all issues except for the North Korea question. Actually, I think it is very disingenuous. Yes, the conservative Grand National Party favors a hard stance against North Korea as opposed to the liberal Democratic United Party which favors continued dialogue and further implementation of the "sunshine" policy toward the North. Also, I find your assessment that Korea is more homogeneous than China misleading. Yes, China has a number of "nationalities" or "ethnicities" as well as a variety of different and distinct regional cultures within the Han "nationality" itself. Korea however can easily be divided within regional and socioeconomic lines on a geographic map. The conservatives in Korea have a firm grip on the Seoul area as well as in the southeast(the Korean industrial heartland), whereas the liberals are favored in the less developed southwest(whose native residents are typically discriminated against by the rest of Korea, it actually resembles the same kind of racial and ethnic discrimination found in other countries) as well as the northeast(where Koreans stereotypically describe as the "countryside"). If anything, Korean politics kind of resembles American politics. The conservative Grand National Party's platform favors free-trade and neo-liberal ideology, many of its members publicly express their Christian faith, favors a strong military to confront N. Korea, and is very pro-business(the current president Lee Myung-bak was former CEO of Hyundai Engineering and Construction). The Democratic United Party tries to paint itself as the opposite of the Grand National Party, by being pro-labor and more friendly with the North. There is division in "homogeneous" Korea, which is often ignored by outsiders who are only familiar with Korea superficially. As I said, this is just not my idle musings (although I did live there for two years), the Hill Center at Yonsei (not Sogang as I said before) GSIS did a joint study with CSIS on the popularity of the 데모 in Korean politics and how it did not reflect a truly divergent set of opinions among the Korean population apart from the North Korea question. I'm aware of the Silla-Baekjae Gyeongsam/Jeolla divide, but it does not seem to factor into much of political beliefs that the study touched on. I read it about a year ago and when/if I find the audio/transcript I'll post it. e: I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on the study being done by Yonsei/CSIS, it was sometime in 2010. I'm not sure I'll be able to find it anytime soon. But the gist was that these folksy truisms (don't trust Jeolla people with money!!!) were just that--axioms and regional rivalries that didn't really affect much in the way of political opinion about trade or domestic policy, despite the theater the politicians would put on. menino fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Feb 21, 2012 |
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Feb 21, 2012 11:17
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Barto posted:The people in the villages would elect the first Chinese Santorum who promised to blow up Japan. Just talk to some of them and see. Remember how they got riotous over the mere shadow of an implication of a slight by Japan regarding the Fishing islands? Yeah I agree with this, or at least that this is exactly what the leadership fears. I wrote a research paper about the Diaoyutai question since 1978 and it's clear that the government has basically done its utmost to nip these protests in the bud since Tian'anmen, before which they encouraged it a lot more than they do now. Which is somewhat ironic given that the CCP has hung its hat on using nationalism and growth to justify its existence. However, they are very wary of any large scale protest no matter where its directed as they think it will inevitably turn against the government. One article that I remember referring to a lot was "Riots and Remeberence", which was a pretty good rundown of the history until 2005: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2242/is_1673_286/ai_n14817143/
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Feb 22, 2012 04:53
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Cream_Filling posted:You'd just use characters or situational parentheticals for the most common or confusing homophones, just like plenty of other sinosphere countries do like Japan or Korea. Hell, languages like Korean don't use tones at all when they transliterate Chinese and end up with like 4-5 common words at a time that all sound and are spelled exactly the same. The point would be to reduce the need to memorize particularly rarely used or weird characters to make the language easier to learn quickly. Dunno how useful that would be, but I think the general idea has some merit to it. Yeah from previously being in Korea and listening to kids explain Sino-derived vocab to other kids, it seems like the confusion was kept to a minimum. The Sinified forms of both "white" and "one hundred" have the same spelling/pronunciation, but they had very common collocations, which qualified as built in parentheticals to use quickly in a conversation as an example in the rare event that context didn't spell it out completely. So I'm sure Mandarin speakers could use similar techniques as well. As far as writing, it doesn't seem like such ambiguity would come up that often, especially in specialized topics. There was a mountain near my first school called 백년산, which meant "One Hundred Year Mountain", but could also have been translated as "White Whore Mountain". :ambiguity:
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Feb 24, 2012 13:14
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I don't have a firm opinion either way on the educational merits/problems of a proposed conversion and my refusal stems from cultural/historical reasons. Your example of white/hundred is an interesting one because when I saw the "Lion-eating poet in the stone den" example brought up early I thought of an early lesson I had in pronunciation - Zhang Fei promised to reform his ways, stop drinking and abusing his men and be a good brother for Liu Bei. As part of his reform he wanted to look smart so he ordered his men to make him a white suit of armour for the next day. His men misunderstood this as 100 suits of armour for the next day and decided that it was impossible (and fearing execution) they resolved to kill him. That's fantastic, whether true or not. Actually I think it's pretty amazing that the words were so close together that early. On an unrelated tangent, I think it's pretty interesting that so many of the RTK major players (at least in the book) died right around the establishment of the Three Kingdoms (Xiahou Dun, Huang Zhong, Yue Jin, Lu Meng, Cao Cao, Guan Yu, Liu Bei, Xiahou Yuan, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao). Most of them were within three years of Cao Pi taking the throne, but I guess this is related to the conflict that the conquest of Shu set off.
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Feb 24, 2012 17:00
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Ronald Spiers posted:How do you communicate orally? All modern languages are pronouncing the Chinese characters incorrectly. How does one input it on a computer? Korean lacks a lot of phonemes in the final position (in addition to "F" "V" and the voiced and unvoiced "TH" anywhere) and has no dipthongs or consonant clusters, meaning you're limited to three glyphs per syllable.
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Feb 26, 2012 05:57
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Here's an interesting article about Bo from a former Chongqing resident, where she first focuses on the economic numbers: http://insideoutchina.blogspot.com/2012/03/bo-xilais-chongqing-model.html quote:On Bo Xilai's "Chongqing Model" I also thought this was interesting: quote:The last curious thing I want to mention here is this: on March 8th, during the National People's Congress (NPC) in Beijing, Bo Xilai gave a press conference that attracted a big crowd of journalists; lots of questions were asked and answered, but no one brought up the disappearance of a Chongqing delegation member, Zhang Mingyu. Zhang was taken by force from his Beijing residence by Chongqing police, believed to have been sent by Bo Xilai. Zhang's lawyer tried to reach out to media and netizens through microblogs. I saw reports of Zhang’s disappearance on March 7th and tweeted about it with a bit of shock – this was happening during the NPC, which is supposed to be China's highest legislative meeting. Would anybody inquire about a violation of the basic rights of its own delegates?
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Mar 21, 2012 05:05
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:I seriously doubt he tried for asylum. It seems more of a ploy to force the issue on the central government and escape from Bo's influence in the short term. He wanted to keep his travel low-profile and driving to Chengdu is quick and easy. Hopping on a flight to Beijing? Not so much. If he actually did anything in the consulate, it was probably more of a dox dropping to force the central government to go after Bo. I think this is more plausible, the woman who writes at insideoutchina said he was basically trying to get Beijing's ear as quickly as possible and figured the consulate could relay his message safely. She also said that Bo's police and Beijing police had a scuffle when Wang eventually left the consulate, with Bo's guys trying to prevent him from going with the Boys from Beijing. quote:Wang then walked into a melee between two forces waiting outside: Seventy police wagons sent by Bo Xilai, and agents of State Security sent from Beijing. The two parties scuffled and argued about who would take Wang Lijun into custody. In the end, Wang's plan worked: he was escorted to Beijing instead of Chongqing.
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Apr 17, 2012 09:37
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Call it an NGO if you want, but walks like a duck quacks like a duck... throws around cash to groups that oppose governments the US doesn't like. It's the same thing. I'm pretty sure it's not a question of "liking" one country or another, it's spotting an opening, and there's really not enough money in the world to fill all the openings the PRC create.
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May 3, 2012 02:34
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Ronald Spiers posted:I love that argument. Might as well say a quarter of the world should belong to Mongolia. When's the Timurids going to get theirs?
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May 9, 2012 03:25
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ReindeerF posted:Hahah, I'm going to forward this to my Pinoy friends for comment and see what comes back. At least the Mormons wait for you to die to baptize you. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but aren't overseas Chinese pretty prominent in Thai politics? I remember reading that something like fifteen (!) former Thai PMs are actually Thai-Chinese. There's an angle right there！
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May 9, 2012 04:07
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Donraj posted:Dunno about that, but I believe some of them have claimed that Confucius was Korean. Oh yes they have. They also claim that the Dragon Boat festival is Korean, as are Cherry Blossoms. They also claimed to have been forced into battle by the US in the Vietnam war with nothing but sticks and shields. Pretty standard NE Asian revisionism: 1. we are peace loving victims and 2. our ingenuity is unsurpassed.
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May 9, 2012 06:23
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Ronald Spiers posted:Yes but who are exactly "they?" Academics? Politicians? Students? Shoe-makers? Butchers? Nationalistic Netizens? I heard it from co-workers while in the Seoul public school system, not very often though, and it's true that China often pushes a lot of BS too about Goguryeo and Balhae in a much more official capacity than I ever heard in Korea. I suppose the difference was the comparisons were much more pointed in Korea and offered with little or no prodding, probably because they are the smaller, less known party in the dispute and think about China more often than the Chinese think about Korea. Donraj posted:God I hope you meant to say "Korean War" No, Vietnam. I heard this from a friend of mine.
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May 9, 2012 07:38
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GuestBob posted:Compared to ... Germany? I personally view it as a matter of three or four phases. Late 18th/early 19th Century states (US/France/England), mid to late 19th Century states (Japan/Italy/Germany), and 20th century interwar (Turkey, Central Europe) and post WWII states (NE Asia, a lot of others) There's really only about 150 years between all of them, but it makes a big difference.
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May 9, 2012 15:17
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Another thing that probalby plays a big part in this "we originated it!" stuff is tourism and the way all of the countries in the region emphasize exports, especially to the West. Lacking a lot of the tropical draws of SE Asia, they all try to compete on historical resonance. Would you rather go to Qufu or beautiful breezy Daejeon? Confucius may very well have been from either city!! Why Kyoto? Come watch us make world-famous makkeolli in Wonju! etc
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May 10, 2012 02:18
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Ronald Spiers posted:
Yeah, China and Japan are set. As far as the claims Korea's advertising might not try to overdo it (except for Visit Seoul Year!!! 2010-2012!!!) , but when you actually go to the places, they lay it on really thick. I had a lady give me a 20 minute spiel at Chang Deok Gung in Seoul about some kind of style of poetry and gave me about six books and tried to get me to send them back to the US to donate to a library. It's not exactly DokdoISOURS or anything, just really really pushy.
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May 10, 2012 04:52
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:If anything it's a sign of a push towards stricter visa regulations which are long overdue. How are racist rants a sign of a push? And how does the virtue of the fact that it's a "sign" of something render it somehow not a ridiculous nativist screed?
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May 20, 2012 12:18
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There's really no incentive to really put a ton of effort into being a great teacher, at least from what I've seen first in South Korea and now China. I have a degree in applied linguistics and have found it got me exactly bupkus my first round through. This is primarily because South Korea's education sector is terribly mismanaged. I am not really a teacher at my current job in Beijing, I guess the closest I come sometimes is an interview coach, but it's still apparent that they view these sessions as things that can be scheduled with an hours notice, because "it's just English talking". The "English monkey" mentality is very strong at my company, and it's most likely going make them short a qualified laowai in a few short weeks. There's a reason why the demand and jobs are in Asia, the education system here is terrible at language teaching and acquisition.
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May 22, 2012 12:03
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shrike82 posted:It's interesting how you focus on jobs (can't say I'm particularly impressed by the people at the British Council either) rather than educational outcomes for the ESL students. Case in point of how teachers just fart around and then leave. You obviously have a real chip on your shoulder about English teachers. It could be the outcomes indicate that it's not easy to improve language ability. It could also be that in your first post you talk about qualifications, and then magically start harping on outcomes. Care to actually provide something quantifiable as to what has given you such an inferiority complex? And perhaps give us an idea as to where you're going to finally leave those goal posts?
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May 22, 2012 12:28
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Here's a beautiful case in point about teaching English and dealing with management that knows nothing about it: I learned today I have to give a 4 hour class instructing merchant marine cadets and deck/engine officers about international maritime conventions. Keep in mind this was when I walked in this morning. me:"Which conventions?" them: MARPOL, and SOLAS. me:"What do they need to know?" them: The basics. me: "What do mean by basics? There are 6 annexes to MARPOL and 14 Chapters to SOLAS." them: Use your judgment. me: "What?" them: Yes. Also, you need to make sure they know all the different main and auxilliary engine manufacturers and how to repair them for bulk carriers. me: "What are those?" them: We have the 外派面试手册 (handbook for cadets and officers. 60% in Chinese, including the table of contents, which I have told them repeatedly that I cannot read with any degree of accuracy. the rest in incorrect English) :Christonacrutch: But really, the problem are these drat backpackers out to steal women who don't respect Asian culture. “Also, you go to Shanghai tonight, did you bring your passport?"
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May 23, 2012 03:10
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^^ That's a really interesting story. To take this on a slight derail, are these kinds of things really "major incidents" as the story stated? Of course, I don't think even the Chen thing was really a "major incident" either as it turned out, just a very well timed and ballsy move by Chen to ensure maximum exposure. Not that I'm privy to any special information, but it seems like the US was not really champing at the bit to make a big deal out of Chen and just found itself kind of overwhelmed after letting him in. Are these kinds of double agent things really big incidents to Beijing and Washington? Or is just a thing because it went public?
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Jun 2, 2012 17:28
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Korea's birthrate is that of a much wealthier country. China is skewed of course b/c of the one child policy thing. I think it's definitely an East/West thing. Way too expensive to educate kids because of the stupid Gaokao/suneung testing that determines your entire loving life at age 17.
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Jun 3, 2012 04:20
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Modus Operandi posted:The statistics indicate that this isn't the case. A few eastern and western european countries are far worse off in the growth and birth rate department. No one is "far worse off" than South Korea, and the few that are (Japan, Germany) are among the wealthiest states in the world. South Korea is a rather sizeable country (50 million) and wealthy, but still in many repsects a newly industrialized state. There may be other factors aside from its militarized ultra-Confucian culture, but that certainly stands out. I suppose if I had to pick one, "militarized" is probably more influential than "ultra-Confucian", but admittedly it's hard to dissect which contributes to which. Just going off my own anecdotal evidence, Beijing strikes me as a much more female-friendly culture than Seoul. I'd say it's less East/West than Corporatist East (Japan/Korea) vs. West.
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Jun 3, 2012 09:44
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whatever7 posted:Actually if you put it that way, you add more evidentce that it's a Confucius thing. Korea has had more authentic Confucius education than China for extended period of time even after they changed the written language from Chinese to Hangul. I agree with both points. Also I think the fact that Korea had a right-wing gov't and China had a left wing gov't after WWII further solidified Korea's uber-Confucian-ness. Mao did a lot of terrible crap, but he at least made some gestures towards eliminating tradition for tradition's sake. Korea has always struck me as a little eddy where all the errant streams of Sinic culture has gotten trapped, stagnated and amplified, but I've never really done a lot of research on it.
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Jun 3, 2012 16:29
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Arglebargle III posted:I think they said was right? It was the highest in the world? Maybe I've been in China too long and my ability to distinguish tense is going. I always have to stifle a smirk when I am told by my coworkers that social welfare in America is "very good", and tell them to compare it to Western (not great but better) or Nothern Europe. I think the Chinese have definitely internalized the "bootstraps" thinking though. They always just assume it's because people in the US are "lazy" and don't want to work. Probably some Han-ism at work too, just kind of sickening that it looks so much like American-style Calvinism-lite.
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Jun 7, 2012 03:44
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Throatwarbler posted:Social welfare in America is very good compared to China. In America old and poor people get free healthcare instead of dying in the street like farm animals. Not bad! I doubt your friends were telling you that America is literally Sweden. They basically were. They said people didn't have to work if they didn't want to and could get a check forever.
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Jun 7, 2012 04:58
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In one of the recent Sinica's one of the guests mentioned Sino Platonic Papers, which is a collection of older academic works about China. From what I can tell, it has a pretty heavy linguistics/language/literature bent, but lots of other good resources as well. http://www.sino-platonic.org/
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Jun 21, 2012 06:24
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One of my socio linguistics books (Tannen?) said that Thai women often add (or added, maybe it's not in use now) the particle "ka" to sentences, which actually means "slave". Not sure if Reindeerf or somebody else can verify this. So that's nice.
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Jun 22, 2012 03:35
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ReindeerF posted:THREAD INVASION! Posted in SE thread, but will put here instead: Anecdottaly I met an American guy working for a think tank here in Beijing who said that a lot of these moves on the offshore islands are being pushed by the energy companies and that was his focus. He said that the CCP had no individual department for energy or Coast Guard issues, and that as a result both of these interests were spread among different ministries, leading small groups, and SOEs. So it's really hard to tell who's calling the shots on these issues.
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Jul 9, 2012 09:47
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This is from last week: Attack Raises Fears of a New Gang War in Macau quote:A senior figure in Macau’s gambling industry was severely beaten by six men in a restaurant at his own casino, the highest-profile case of violence in the city’s booming gambling business since Portugal handed control of the former colony back to China in 1999. Interesting, especially in light of Evan Osnos' God of Gamblers article from April. Still working out the kinks in Chinese Vegas.
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Jul 11, 2012 05:21
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According to the almighty Wiki, this particular Jiang Qing is male, currently pre-undead, and some sort of retro Confucianist that critiques both Marxism and New Confucianism. I know little to nothing about any of this, but I would say he's trying to revive pre-Republican ideas of Confucianism? I'm sure there are people much more qualified than myself who can talk about these things in detail.
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Jul 25, 2012 12:46
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From what I remember reading about the Chinatown Tong/Triad (On Leong versus Hip Sing) heroin wars in Chicago in the 90s, the Triads here were big Taiwan backers, which leads me to believe they got a lot of support from the US Feds. I used to live in Chinatown in Chicago, so I loved this stuff. Here's an article about a Tong Boss who was convicted of bribing a ton of dirty Chicago pols in the 80s and 90s. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-02-13/news/9402130225_1_gambling-conspiracy-gambling-operation-chicago-police-officers I can't find any info about their support for Taiwan and the KMT, maybe I was mistaken but I'll keep looking.
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Jul 26, 2012 17:29
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Nevermind16 posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19166788 I think it's more that its fishing industry is driving some of its FP interests in regards to zones of control and offshore island claims.
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Aug 8, 2012 02:05
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Just from reading the comments about Senkaku, a lot of ppl thought the fishing trawler captain was current or former PLAN. The PLA have used these "fishing trawlers" since the 1970's in regards to Senkaku, in order to give the CCP FP apparatus plausible deniability with the Japanese while allowing the hawks in the party and PLA a chance to feel like tough guys.
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Aug 8, 2012 03:37
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Fishing is big business in Asia, and serves to create facts on the ground when it comes to declaring zones of control. Asia has a lot more offlying islands than other parts of the world which tend to complicate zones of control claims, and it has remarkable cooler foreign relations than any other part of the world. Fishing interests are certainly not as big of a driver as energy concerns, but they are a source of income, food security, and opportunities for pissing matches. This is especially true in China, which has a uniquely byzantine naval foreign policy structure.
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Aug 8, 2012 14:00
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If I remember correctly, the PRC has stated that it can't promise not to ask for further apologies if the Japanese make an official one, and this is why Japan has not apologized to China in an official capactiy. In contrast, S.Korea promised to not make any official protests, and Japan apologized. It seems to me that the PRC still wants a nationalist release valve for the next decade or so. I don't have a source handy, but I wrote a pretty long paper on the Senkaku dispute in post-Mao China, just don't have them handy at the moment.
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Aug 20, 2012 10:35
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Vladimir Putin posted:So why don't they just come out and say "He hurt his back swimming"? No no no, it's always CIA. They are out to hurt Chinese people's feelings at every opportunity. Lanzhou is not polluted, it's just running dog air manipulation technology donated by Falun Gong supporters. Etc for example.
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Sep 11, 2012 18:05
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The Chunxiao gas field lies about 4km west of the disputed border, containing about 7.8 billion barrels of oil and a 1.6 trillion cubic feet of natural gas (just as a point of comparison, Americans consume about 22 TcF on per person per year). It's been part of talks about joint development since the 1990s. From what I remember from researching this issue for a paper, Japan basically started this row when a right wing group set up a lighthouse in 1978, presumably as a tit-for-tat in exchange for Japanese support of an "anti-hegemony clause" against the USSR in the 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship. In response, China sent 100 fishing boats armed with machine guns to circle the island a few times and go home. Some things never change. When Deng singed the treaty he said of the issue: "Our next generation will certainly be wiser. They will certainly find a solution acceptable to all.”
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Sep 18, 2012 15:47
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