China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

«‹›2 »

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

GlassEye-Boy posted:

Weren't Koreans the ones claiming that Sun Yat Sen was Korean?

No.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 05:20

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 11, 2024 21:43

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

menino posted:

Oh yes they have. They also claim that the Dragon Boat festival is Korean, as are Cherry Blossoms. They also claimed to have been forced into battle by the US in the Vietnam war with nothing but sticks and shields.

Pretty standard NE Asian revisionism: 1. we are peace loving victims and 2. our ingenuity is unsurpassed.

Yes but who are exactly "they?" Academics? Politicians? Students? Shoe-makers? Butchers? Nationalistic Netizens?

The only example I saw of Koreans claiming Confucius as a Korean was from a Japanese program...

On the other hand there is a strong push by Chinese academics to include historical peoples that have resided in what is now called "Dongbei" or more commonly known in the West as "Manchuria" as part of Chinese history, this includes the Korean kingdoms of Koguryo and Balhae. Actually I have been to Ji'an, Jilin on a Chinese tour group to visit Koguryo Pyramids and tombs. The tour guides strongly urged us tourists that Koguryo is Chinese history and has no connection with Korea. As an American-trained historian on East Asia, I was very agitated by the claim, especially coming from a government run-site.

Here is more background on the The Korea-China History War

I think rumors spread around the internet is pretty innocuous as long as the majority of the people aren't gullible. Where I think it becomes dangerous is when governments attempt to form a historical narrative that promotes a skewed nationalistic bent that shits on history for their own petty political gains.

Ronald Spiers fucked around with this message at 07:35 on May 9, 2012

# ¿ May 9, 2012 07:32

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Donraj posted:

I knew a professor, a fairly well-known Confucian scholar, who sat through a conference presentation where a Korean scholar claimed just that. I want to say that the conference was in China, but I'm not sure.

Can you substantiate anything about this incident? What are there names and which universities to these folks work for? I would like to read their academic works.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 07:57

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Arglebargle III posted:

Whether it's true or not, Koreans have a reputation for making nationalist claims that are a little out there. China and Japan have also been known to make grandiose claims but I think Korea's are often a little weirder because they don't have the obvious historical accomplishments. Yes they were an interesting and at times very innovative people, but I feel like they sometimes, maybe subconsciously, feel the need to lay claim to some things that the Chinese or Japanese wouldn't because they already have that sort of accomplishment in their established history.

It's important to remember that in historical terms all Asian states are young states. A lot of the odd things these governments do are common behaviors of young political systems.

Again, who are these Koreans that make nationalist claims? And what do they claim that is so grandiose? Any John Doe or Hong Gildong can make a claim, it doesn't mean it is officially accepted by the government or education system or by the general population. You are being way too general. I know Koreans like to talk about their four seasons and their alphabet. But what other claims that you deem is weird? Do Koreans just bring out their national achievements out of the ether when you have conversations with them?

Throatwarbler posted:

He's talking about the 19th century European idea of a Nation State, as distinct from multi-national, multi-ethnic empires like the Austro-Hungarian, Tsarist Russian, Ottoman and Qing. Notably all 4 of the latter declined precipitously throughout the late 1800s and had ceased to exist by the end of WW1, just as modern nation states like Britain and Japan reached the heights of their power.

The status of places like Tibet, or the Caucasus, are ambiguos today because they had previously been part of multi-national empires that have successor states.

I thought Britain was a multi-ethnic empire... and it is still a multi-ethnic collection of countries. How was Britain different from the other multi-ethnic empires?

The modern naton state of China also pretty much constitutes the same territory and people of Qing China minus half of Mongolia and Taiwan. How would you label the PRC today? A multi-ethnic nation state with Chinese characteristics?

# ¿ May 9, 2012 19:21

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Arglebargle III posted:

I don't actually have primary sources about Korea! Crazy fact, a lot of people get their information from secondary sources. I know, I should have an exhaustively researched statement for you. But I don't! How shameful! Now I will have to go play Starcraft for 78 hours until I die and the doctors blame the fan in the room.

Sounds like a case of spreading false and dangerous rumors! In China you would be censored!

I had firsthand account of experiencing nationalistic sentiment in China approved by the local government at a site approved by UNESCO as a world heritage site. Your claims are unfounded generalizations. More concrete examples would be more helpful in the discussion about Asian nationalism(s).

I still find the Japanese video of Korea claiming Confucius as Korean to be very suspicious. I've never met a Korean professor that claims that.

eSports Chaebol posted:

I know that at least one Korean cable station (OnGameNet) would at times have their station watermark change to say "DOKDO IS KOREAN TERRITORY".

If this is true I don't see anything crazy about it. Territorial disputes are common among countries. It isn't like claiming a cultural tradition of another culture as one's own.

menino posted:

Another thing that probalby plays a big part in this "we originated it!" stuff is tourism and the way all of the countries in the region emphasize exports, especially to the West. Lacking a lot of the tropical draws of SE Asia, they all try to compete on historical resonance.

Would you rather go to Qufu or beautiful breezy Daejeon? Confucius may very well have been from either city!!

Why Kyoto? Come watch us make world-famous makkeolli in Wonju! etc

Personally I don't think China and Japan need to compete for tourists. They are inherently already enticing tourist destinations considering all the famous historical, natural, and modern sites they have. I have however noticed Korea, Malaysia, and Taiwan tourist boards pushing heavily as a tourist destination. I don't see them promoting ridiculous claims though.

# ¿ May 10, 2012 04:12

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Throatwarbler posted:

So when did the Chinese start referring to Seoul as 首耳 instead of 汉城 ?

2005 by relevant Chinese bodies. Chinese folks still usually call it Hancheng though.

# ¿ May 10, 2012 05:08

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Hey look another Asian island dispute:

quote:

China travel agencies 'suspend Philippine tours'
Most travel agencies in China have suspended tours to the Philippines amidst escalating tension in the South China Sea, Chinese state media said.

The agencies would also ''adopt precautionary measures to ensure safety of their clients" now in the Philippines', Xinhua news agency said.

The two countries have been locked in a stand-off in disputed waters at the Scarborough Shoal since 8 April.

On Tuesday, China warned of a planned protest in Manila on Friday.

The Chinese embassy posted an advisory for Chinese citizens in the Philippine capital to stay off the streets and avoid conflict with locals.

The demonstration, expected to be attended by some 1,000 people, comes amid heightened tensions between the two nations.

China claims sovereignty over a large U-shaped area of the South China Sea, bringing it into dispute with several neighbouring countries. In recent months it has grown more assertive over the issue.

Manila has asked China to settle the issue at the International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea (ITLOS).

'Strong responses'
Chinese tourists make up about 9% of total arrivals to the Philippines, said an Associated Press report citing the Philippine Department of Tourism.

Travel firms including China's largest online travel service company had promised to refund customers who had booked tours, said Xinhua.

On Wednesday, Beijing urged Manila not to ''further damage bilateral relations''.

The Philippines has ''instigated the Philippine public and Philippine people living overseas to stage demonstrations against China'', Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei was reported as saying by Xinhua.

These have ''aroused strong responses and concern among Chinese living overseas'', he added.

The row began early last month when the Philippines said its naval ship had found eight Chinese fishing vessels at the shoal, which both sides claim.

Two Chinese surveillance ships then arrived in the area, placing themselves between the warship and the fishing vessels, preventing the navy from making arrests and allowing the fishing boats to leave.

Late last week the Philippines said there were four Chinese surveillance ships and 10 fishing boats in the disputed waters, as well as a Philippine coastguard vessel and a fisheries bureau ship.

On Monday, China delivered fresh warnings to the Philippines that it was prepared to respond to ''any escalation'' in the maritime situation.

''China once again urges the Philippine side to seriously respond to China's concerns and return to the right track for handling the matter,'' Vice Foreign Minister Fu Ying said.

Personally the Scarborough Shoal looks amazingly close to the Philippines geographically but I do like(meaning I find it amusing) how China claim it based on historical reasons, very much in-line with the previous discussions about the use of history for political ends.

Anyone believe there will be future repercussions throughout the region because of the heightening of tensions? China likes to paint itself as someone that doesn't interfere with the internal affairs of other nations(Taiwan excepted) but it seems other smaller neighbors are getting fed up with China. Burma suspended certain projects run by the Chinese. The Spratly Islands has always been contentious with all neighbors. Or will this just blow over?

# ¿ May 10, 2012 08:17

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

http://www.globaltimes.cn/SPECIALCOVERAGE/SouthChinaSeaConflict.aspx
Checkout the map the Chinese media shows for "Huangyan" Island. Pretty hilarious.

And further Chinese media opinion about the island: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2012-05/10/c_131578905_3.htm

With the 2008 Russian war with Georgia during the middle of the Olympics and the lack of any response from the West, I wouldn't be surprised if China would do something aggressive militarily to claim this "island."

# ¿ May 11, 2012 20:51

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Heard this on the radio today: A Tale of Two Brothers: One in China, Other in US It is about two Americans who grew up during the Cultural Revolution.

Fascinating how two brothers with similar experiences end up with very different views on China as well as the US.

# ¿ May 16, 2012 04:05

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Here is an autobiography of Sidney Rittenberg. One of the very few foreigners to join the CCP. He had a heck of a time during the Cultural Revolution. Now he is a consultant for people who want to do business in China.

# ¿ May 16, 2012 08:17

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Modus Operandi posted:

You're right i'm not sure I can call it racism but HK and Singaporean Chinese view themselves as ethnically different and more cultured. I'd compare it to the same way the leading western nationalities used to view the Irish. The Brits used to invent all sorts of race mythology to separate the Irish into a different sub group of "white" comparable with the "negro." HK and Singaporeans view mainland Chinese as ugly, inferior, dumb, etc.. and a whole host of near racist type stereotypes.

I wouldn't call the term racism because that would connotate the belief in the superiority of oneself based on race, I would call it prejudices. There are prejudices within mainland China as well. Urban v. rural; Beijing v. everyone else; Cantonese v. "northerners;" native v. migrant; Shanghai v. everyone else; everyone else vs. Henan people, etc.

Also Chinese Singaporeans and Chinese Hong Kongers do NOT view the mainland Chinese as "ethnically" different. They all belong to the Han ethnic group or the more generic term "Chinese". Singaporean and HK Chinese may see themselves as more cultured, but not ethnically different from the mainland Chinese.

# ¿ May 20, 2012 12:36

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

shrike82 posted:

I don't think there's any secret to it. Race isn't an issue as long as everyone's doing well economically. And the government's done a great job over the past 4-5 decades.

I imagine things would change drastically (racial conflict etc.) if there was ever a prolonged period of recession.

Wasn't it because of racial problems that Singapore left Malaysia?

# ¿ May 20, 2012 13:12

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Nigeria has also joined the crackdown parade!

quote:

Nigeria accuses Chinese traders of 'scavenging' in Kano

Nigerian immigration officials say they have arrested 45 Chinese nationals for alleged illegal textile trading.

Those arrested - 34 men and 11 women - had been trading at a textile market in the northern city of Kano, state officials said.

Nigerian law bans foreigners from the retail trading of textiles.

Local immigration chief Emmanuel Brisca Ifeadi described the Chinese as "scavengers" and said the arrests were part of a wider crackdown.

"The Chinese expatriates were found to be scavenging in the market, which is hurting the nation's economy," Mr Ifeadi said.

He told local media that the Chinese workers had been engaged in "lowly rated activities" that should be reserved for Nigerians and were "depriving them of job opportunities".

"Only quality expatriates would be allowed into the country, not those who are economic scavengers. They will be deported to their country," he said.

"For Chinese to come to our country and be selling textiles in our market will not be allowed. And we will continue checking them; arresting them and deporting them to their country."

He said all foreigners found to be trading illegally would be targeted in the crackdown, not just Chinese.

However, he said foreign nationals who came to Nigeria to invest and create employment for Nigerians would be "welcomed and supported by the federal government".

China is now Africa's largest trading partner, surpassing the United States and its traditional European partners.

I also heard the US State Department sent a directive to crackdown on Chinese scholars from teaching pre-collegiate classes in the US.

# ¿ May 23, 2012 20:57

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

China 'arrests high-level US spy' in Hong Kong - reports

quote:

A Chinese security ministry official has been arrested on suspicion of spying for the US and passing on state secrets, Hong Kong media reports say.

The man, who was private secretary to a vice-minister in the security ministry, was arrested earlier this year, various press reports say.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton declined to comment on the reports.

If confirmed, it would be the third major incident to hit China-US relations in the past few months.

It would also be the highest-level spy case involving China and the US to become public since 1985, when intelligence official Yu Qiangsheng defected to the US.

The official had been recruited by the CIA, local press and Reuters report.

'Pretty woman trap'
Hong Kong-based Oriental Daily quotes the monthly New Way as saying on 25 May that the official "fell into a pretty woman trap" set up by the CIA.

After the two were photographed in secret liaisons, he was blackmailed and agreed to supply secret information to the US, the reports say.

"The destruction has been massive," a source told Reuters.

The official was arrested between January and March on allegations that he had passed information to the US for several years on China's overseas espionage activities, Hong Kong press and Reuters report.

China's foreign ministry did not respond immediately to a request for comment faxed by Reuters on Friday.

China-US relations have been fraught with tension in recent months, following two high-profile cases.

In March, rising political star Bo Xilai was sacked as Communist party chief in the city of Chongqing, after his police chief fled to the US consulate in the city of Chengdu in neighbouring Sichuan province.

And earlier this month, blind activist Chen Guangcheng left for a new life in New York, after he caused a diplomatic crisis by escaping from house arrest and seeking refuge in the US embassy in Beijing.

It would put further pressure on China's security chief, Zhou Yongkang. Rumours were swirling about his possible downfall in the wake of Mr Bo's sacking, wrote the BBC's Beijing correspondent Damian Grammaticas at the time.

Most China-US spy cases involve industrial espionage. Last year, an Indian-born engineer was found guilty in the US state of Hawaii of selling military secrets to China to do with the B-2 bomber.

In 2003, a US woman who had been recruited to spy on China by the FBI was arrested along with her lover, a former FBI agent, but a judge later dismissed the charges against her.

Good ole CIA using the honeypot trap technique! Doesn't look good for Zhou Yongkang, head of security.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2012 05:14

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Deceitful Penguin posted:

Could you elaborate on this? The Marriage Law, at least, was a good thing I thought.

I remember Mao stating that "women hold up half the sky."

Although I found this amusing: Papers reveal Mao's view of women

# ¿ Jun 4, 2012 07:55

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

Heaven is not pleased with China: China bars stock index web search after Tiananmen match

# ¿ Jun 6, 2012 05:13

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

The ties between Mongolia and Tibet is interesting. I believe it was the Mongols that created the title of Dalai Lama.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2012 08:54

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

From my superficial understanding of Thai, there are different sentence ending according to gender.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2012 01:55

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 11, 2024 21:43

Ronald Spiers: Oct 25, 2003; Soldier

You would think the Communists would've rectified these sexist characters when they simplified them.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2012 07:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

«‹›2 »