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I don't have much more to add right now, but this is an excellent thread! Nice work french lies and BrotherAdso.
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Feb 16, 2012 01:22
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Wait, so two people who have never heard of Le Keqiang are arguing about something he may or may not have said? He's pretty much one of the top 5 or so important people in China right now... This thread went downhill really fast  I think it's more fair to say that China is stratified, even more stratified than the US. Westerners disproportionately visiting Shanghai and Beijing leads to a false impression that all the Chinese youth are using iPhones and carrying LV bags. Also, it's not wrong to say that China is trying to promote a positive(ie; rich) image to the world, all countries try to do that, through tourism offices and such.
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Feb 18, 2012 19:33
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At risk of repeating the argument you had~ Do we have any reason to believe characters are actually harder to learn than a roman alphabet? It is my impression that the time it takes for spelling bees and the like to be phased out in the US and for character tests to be phased out in China are about the same (about 10 years old). And 7 year olds from both countries can basically write enough for communication, although with lots of mistakes of course. Certainly there needs to be more education in China in general but I'm not sure that characters are to blame. I feel like the challenge of characters is seriously overestimated, especially considering there's the simplified set. Not to mention the ability to guess the meaning/pronunciation of characters based on radicals. I guess that depends on how you define "literacy" too. I've met college graduates that couldn't read words like 拙 but are still essentially functionally literate. I think Korean and Vietnamese show us it is certainly possible to go from a language which used characters to a language using a phonetic alphabet. But what are the gains? At any rate I invested a lot of time in learning characters because characters are awesome and I personally would not like to see them go for selfish reasons! 
hitension fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Feb 23, 2012 |
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Feb 23, 2012 15:50
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It's really quite sad. Financially speaking, renting is often a wiser choice if the terms of the mortgage are such that you'd pay a higher mortgage than rent, especially if the property is not likely to rise in value. Average wages in Shanghai are about 1/5 what they are in my city (where most young people don't even consider renting an entire apartment without roommates, let alone buying one), yet Shanghainese are desperate to buy a house. It's interesting to hear that that is an issue in HK, too. It always baffled me that mainlanders would describe buying a house as essential because it's so "stable / 稳定"... the land is really on a 70 year lease to the government, how is that more stable than renting?
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Mar 25, 2012 16:43
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Evil Robot posted:Or does China actively reject dual citizenship? Yes
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Mar 31, 2012 21:56
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Hey, no need to cross out the link to the original publication! It's so much better. NY Times really sensationalizes China-related issues. Also, there is a very big difference in Authoritarianism in China and the United States. hitension fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Apr 4, 2012 |
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Apr 4, 2012 13:42
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QuoProQuid posted:I was just about to post this. The Guardian is reporting that Gu Kailai has been accused of murdering Neil Heywood. It almost seems like something out of a movie. Rumor has it Gu Kailai and Heywood had a thing. I was just saying today that this would make an absolutely awesome movie, too bad that sort of thing would never pan out...
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Apr 11, 2012 02:55
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Do you want Foxconn specifically or factory workers in general? "Factory Girls" by Leslie Chang provides a really interesting, personalized (she literally sits down with them for noodles and such) perspective on 1990s Guangdong factory life. e: I just saw you mentioned reliable sources, so this book might be too far from your topic, but it is still really interesting!
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May 1, 2012 22:39
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I'm pretty sure PPL is a 五毛党 himself at this point  I do wonder why Chen fled to the US Embassy. If I was just trying to get out of China, I'd go for the Swedish Embassy, those guys seem much more sympathetic.
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May 3, 2012 02:48
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Yeah, I had read somewhere that the professor who claimed Confucius was Korean was actually a myth made up by the Chinese media. Then when I looked for a source for that information, I realized I had learned it from blog posts. When will the truth be revealed?!! 
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May 9, 2012 23:30
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Even in China, "foreigners" is wayyyy too broad of a category. What is a "foreigner"? Africans that can't afford to renew their visa in Guangzhou? Unemployed European/North Americans that drink and carouse and treat women like objects in Shanghai? Europeans/North Americans that speak Chinese and are studying/working legally? Smoking, scooter-driving Korean international students? Japanese businessmen? ABCs who couldn't get hired by Goldman Sachs and went to their parents homeland to find a job? In an ironic way, I think it's a sign a country's really "made it" if they are dealing with an influx of immigrants. And it's undeniable that the way some Western guys in China act is despicable and has shadows of colonialism. But I don't think it's ever fair to generalize over the whole population. I kinda feel that this whole thing is a smoke bomb designed to cover up for the Bo Xilai (or maybe Chen Guangcheng, but mostly Bo Xilai) incident. Has there been any verdict on that situation? Any legal decision? What happened to the Politburo meeting that got pushed back? Where is Bo's son and wife?
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May 20, 2012 20:08
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Throatwarbler posted:So Sina has set up a portal for decent foreigners. Oh my god. China Daily Show should just throw in the towel now, real life is much funnier.
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May 23, 2012 15:00
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Also Chinese women are already way more independent in almost all quantifiable ways (more female managers, women regularly report higher aspirations, higher involvement in the work force, greater number of self made m/billionaires) than those of Japan or Korea. Unless you mean the Chinese government is trying to curb that, which is kinda a dumb idea since women participating in the workforce more is great for big business (can offer lower wages/jack up prices for everyone since everyone is a double income household)
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Jun 3, 2012 04:39
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A greater percentage of Chinese women work than in Canada, the US, even Sweden (?!) and many other countries: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2010+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc Of course, just working does not guarantee a more equal status in society, but having access to social contacts outside of the home, earning one's own income, having a lower number of children and thus spending less time on unpaid labor (rearing children) all tend to improve the health, wealth and standard of living for women. Half of female self made billionaires are Chinese, Chinese are only 25% of the world's population: http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/22/billionaire-women-entrepreneur-china-richest.html Of course I didn't research into this too closely because billionaires are outliers to begin with and it includes Hong Konger[s] too IIRC...(edit: it only includes women who made their fortunes in mainland China) but it certainly seemed to rile a bunch of posters up. The Economist is fond of writing on this topic, I've read at least 2 articles about it and neither of them are this one I found with some quick googling: http://www.economist.com/node/21539931 Oh, and Chinese women hold a higher % of parliament seats than in other culturally Confucian countries --and even the US for that matter-- but I am kind of skeptical about the power of the People's Congress anyway. It's debatable whether the one child policy is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is a very interesting issue. e; Upon rereading the articles I really wish people would stop quoting Mao Zedong he was not exactly a paradigm of women's rights V I would love to but I'm not an expert on this, I am really more interested in current affairs. I know he had a ton of different wives and the last/most famous, Jiang Qing (Madame Mao) was vilified after Mao's death, but I always thought that was his fault somehow, but this is not being corroborated by my history books. The recent Bo Xilai case reminds me of this too-- of course it's hard to discern what really happened but his wife, Gu Kailai seems to have taken the fall in a major way for the British businessman's murder. There's also some choice quotes by Mao that definitely run counter to the "half the sky" one ("What we have in excess is women, so if you want we can give you a few ten thousand..."). Probably much like everything else about Mao or any other major historical figure, it is highly debatable whether or not he actually wanted to improve women's conditions or just wanted more easily manipulated pawns for the revolution or something else. The Marriage Law, getting rid of foot-binding and some other things were great. hitension fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 02:29
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The point that quotas exist (they exist at other levels too, like the village committees), even for whatever stupid reason, still means that it's actually on the table as an issue. I can't stress enough that I'm just comparing China to countries like Japan or Korea, not Sweden. Actually maybe Confucian societies is the wrong metric, what about comparing developing countries? India has quotas too, how does it work out for them?
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Jun 4, 2012 04:21
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Deceitful Penguin posted:It's beautiful, Wu Yi (吴仪)? Then again, name some prominent female politicians in any country that's not Finland or Germany(and even those countries have more men than women in parliament)
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Jun 4, 2012 22:14
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And they say China isn't ready for democracy.
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Fox...and...Soup posted:Unlike many western countries where women can choose whether or not to work I remember a Chinese guy whining to me about how Chinese weddings were so expensive, and how he thought an American wedding must be super cheap. That was a laugh! "What women want" in any society is ridiculously varied and almost impossible to pin down (what do men want, for that matter? what do humans want?) and I think we need some statistics to back up our claims. Unfortunately, it's hard to find quantitative statistics about peoples' opinions, so we just get your "women just want to stay at home washing clothes" anecdote vs. my anecdotes of Chinese women telling me if they're NOT working it's 没有意义. Anecdotally, the only people I've ever met who told me their life dream was to be a "wife" were Japanese women, but I've met some Japanese women who want to be diplomats and doctors too. It's really hard to generalize. Probably it's different for different places as well-- in China I end up talking to university and grad students and young professionals in major cities, who certainly don't represent the whole country. Oh, I'm familiar with the bracket thing, but don't they do that for all genders and races? I like to joke how the US would be if we had President, Barack Obama (Male, African-American) Vice President, Joe Biden (Male, White) Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton (Female, White) Looks weird and unnecessary to include this extra information, right? But China does it. and so on. All it does is draw attention to how many (Male, Han) there are in China. I even see it after professor's names sometimes.  Affirmative action in Chinese colleges is interesting too.. hitension fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jun 6, 2012 |
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Jun 6, 2012 14:57
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Throatwarbler posted:The bracket thing is only done for women and minorities. If your name has nothing after it you are a Han male. Are we talking about the same thing? Both of these list the "Male, Han" thing I'm talking about : http://www.dlxww.com/gb/daliandaily/2003-03/17/content_127915.htm http://news.qq.com/a/20080316/001295.htm For the second part, I prefer to learn about those measures rather than anecdotal evidence
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Jun 6, 2012 15:34
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Throatwarbler posted:Do you ever watch CCTV news? Whenever there's a list of officials, e.g. when they go through and list every single member of the NPC after each meeting, the one's that are not male and Han will have brackets after their names to indicate their status. Oh, I know what you mean now, thanks for this information! whatever7: 单位 is just danwei. You can say "work unit" if you really want to, but like hukou and some other words, if the audience doesn't know the Chinese word, they won't understand a translation without an appended explanation anyway.
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Jun 6, 2012 16:41
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@Fox and Soup: What you just said is basically the same thing I said in my post, where I acknowledged that the people I met are not the norm. I also don't think "well, it's not great but attitudes there are better than in Korea or Japan in my experience, which is interesting because Korea and Japan has a higher income/standard of living but their mindset has not progressed" is exactly high praise for China... I'm just going to repeat what I said before-- anecdotes are useless and it's impossible to measure what a huge, diverse population wants. Rural, poor uneducated women are hosed everywhere and it's not unique to China. Also at least half of China's population lives in cities now. (source) That means that there are more migrant workers rather than more glamorous urbanites, but it's not correct to say that the average Chinese person lives on a farm. @Guestbob: "In other words, I wouldn't put too much stock by the official laws and regulations because, well, they are often bullshit. Much better to read academic research." Who said I was putting stock in the official laws and regulations? I was talking about academic research in the very post you quoted. I also know that there are companies that will ignore maternity laws. Hell, it's legal to list the required gender and hukou when seeking applicants which is even worse. I never said anything about maternity laws in China so I don't know why asking for a scientific measure prompted that comment. Every country has problems but if the only way anyone is willing to talk about them is from the point of view that that country (in this case China) is uniquely and utterly horrible then it's just useless. edit: vvv Well, that shows me for not reading the article carefully. I still think that rural villages are becoming less and less representative of China on the whole (what is 1.4 billion people on the whole, anyway?) due to migration... hitension fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Jun 7, 2012 |
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Jun 7, 2012 13:30
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Isn't that chart saying women in Russia have a higher employment ratio? Fake edit: Hah, it's because fewer Russian men work. Fascinating. Also  at only 3% of Indian legislators, senior officials and managers are women... and that's ranked #123, meaning there are some ~70 countries (assuming the report is comprehensive) that are ranked worse. Can we just say the world is hosed?
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Jun 8, 2012 14:37
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He does bring up some interesting points but there is a lot of (CITATION NEEDED) going on.quote:While I know "Well, I don't have any quantitative proof that this is true, but I just think so. (Makes an example sentence) Why would people write this way?" quote:It should be noted that even in the case where the sex of the person is obvious or specifically noted in Chinese, the information about their gender is still not a property of the word itself, but rather incorporated as background Haha, this one is true too. I used to poke fun at people, saying "so is he your boyfriend or girlfriend?!" and stuff, until I realized: so what? Why does the gender of the 3rd person always have to be known? I haven't gotten through the whole thing either but my big dislikes are words like 奸 and 嫉妒. In general, Chinese is about as gender neutral as English in my experience. One issue is that, with the exception of simplification, old characters don't change. But it's nowhere near as bad as Arabic or Japanese where "men's speech" and "women's speech" are so different that you'd sound absurd if you learned from someone who is the opposite gender. hitension fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Jun 21, 2012 |
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Jun 21, 2012 13:13
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Hong XiuQuan posted:You're going to have to elaborate on what you mean with regards to Arabic. I've seen strong arguments that suggest that Arabic has such strong genders within language that it's much more empowering as a language than English with its male and female, man and woman, housewife etc. You got me- I don't know Arabic. I did learn some of the basics from a friend who interspersed just about every sentence with "If you're a man, you say ..." ; "If you're a woman, you say..." which is why I felt that it was strongly gendered. In my experience, if there's a division of the way men and women talk, it's not going to be in women's favor. I would like to learn more and see the argument you're talk about!
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Jun 21, 2012 14:21
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妳 is still used in Taiwan at least. 奴 is not necessarily sexist-- it's probably a case where the radical is for the "nu" sound and not the meaning. 怒 Anger, is another example -- you can tell from the top part that it's pronounced "nu", but the bottom part gives you a hint to the meaning (heart has something to do with anger). The big issue is that it's hard to change characters, so it's hard to root out those "sexist" radicals. In English it's easy enough to write (s)he, in Spanish to write ell@, but in Chinese it's a huge hassle to change what characters look like, at least in terms of computing.
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Jun 22, 2012 16:32
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That's an old blog and seems to fit the other China thread here more than this one, but I'll say the same thing I said to my friend. Very simply put, it is baffling to me how someone could live in China for 15+ years and take such a long time to realize that they're never going to be "one of them". I realized that after about a week or two of living in China. You don't have to "become Chinese" to have fun in China. There's a certain joy in showing people a different worldview/background that they might not get otherwise. And two people can be friends while still acknowledging that they have lots of differences. He whines that China is promoting nationalism. So -- go to China, learn the language, talk with people and show them how nice and friendly foreigners are. If all the foreigners leave China (or live in China without learning the language, are blatant womanizers, etc) then where else are Chinese people supposed to get their impressions? Blame the government not the people...
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Sep 15, 2012 13:05
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I've always felt that the parallels between the attitude towards Native Americans in the US and towards Tibetans in China are truly striking. As for "propaganda", remember learning about this in school? 
hitension fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Sep 25, 2012 |
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Sep 25, 2012 13:39
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McDowell posted:Do attitudes towards the West play any role in this maneuvering? Would Chairman Xilai have had a different foreign policy than Chairman Xinjing? Or is the political struggle more about different domestic plans? Just as a heads up-- In Chinese names, the last name is first. So Mao Zedong's last name is Mao, Bo Xilai's last name is Bo, etc. Nobody would call him just Xilai unless they were BFFs.  I've seen people make this mistake even at very high level (like, calling an Ambassador by his first name level) occasions, so be glad you did it on an inconsequential forum and not there, haha. Also it's "Xi Jinping", a name we will get to hear reporters butcher for many years to come. I don't think Bo ever had any chance of being President(Chairman), but he appeared to be a shoo-in for the Politburo Standing Committee (the group of 5-10 guys that make all the major decisions) before this event. I am definitely warming up to the theory that he was never going to make it there and that the assignment to Chongqing was more like a banishment, though. Wonder what happened to his son? Last I heard, Bo Guagua was applying to law schools in the US-- so if so, he should have enrolled by now... hitension fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Sep 29, 2012 |
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Sep 29, 2012 20:18
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Eagerly awaiting the moment when Tumblr is sourced in the New York Times and the Economist
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Sep 30, 2012 14:02
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^Kinda disappointing actually If this conversation goes any longer we'll start getting the "Well I don't let my baby pee on the street, therefore I am obviously superior to Chinese people *hits on underage girls, falsifies college diploma, accepts extravagant gifts from people who make $400/month*" rants... Yeah ugh this topic. Can a foreign person of European heritage integrate to the point of being seen as "Chinese" by Chinese people? Almost certainly not because it would be unprecedented and virtually unheard of. Certainly it is "racist" in a way but give it perspective... Growing up in the US, I always knew that people of different ethnic backgrounds could be Americans because they were my classmates. It wasn't even a question, just like "some people are pink colored and some people are more brown colored". Now think of Chinese people. Even in Shanghai, I have never met a Chinese person who grew up with non-ethnically Chinese (or minority ethnicity like Hui, but even then minorities are usually segregated) in their classroom. I know it exists because I've heard of expats sending their kids to local schools, but it is exceptionally rare. In sum, how can you prepare for something you've never heard of? As for Chinese-American, from what I can tell, in the minds of most Chinese people "American" = "White" -- Again, can you blame them? Because, you know, Asian Americans are sooo fairly represented in our media, and frequently appear in our movies and TV shows  Although they will concede that at least some Americans are black (President Obama, Kobe Bryant). But I can barely even think of a famous Asian American. "Behold our Secretary of Energy, Steven Chu!"However, it seems like everybody in China knows or has heard of a fellow ethnic Chinese who went overseas, so if you explain you're 在美国长大的华人 or whatever you said, people should understand it. Just expect that they still think you are Chinese, just a Chinese who has lived in America for awhile, instead of American. I do like the poster who asked if this would change in 100 years though. People are quick to say no, but really? 100 years? Think about how much China has changed since then. Or hell, America. 100 years ago in America Chinese people couldn't become Americans either because it was illegal for Chinese people to immigrate to America. (Not saying the two situations are at all comparable, but it is some food for thought) When I try to think of China in 100 years, my head explodes. Here's a far more fun topic than the previous one: How long do you all think it will take for China to transition to democracy? Or do you think it will go on doing its own thing forever?
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Oct 1, 2012 12:49
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Gail Wynand posted:I think this is hilarious mainly because most educated Chinese could name at least two: Jeremy Lin, Gary Locke.. Jeremy Lin is probably considered Taiwanese which in turn is considered Chinese by Chinese people... I've never seen anyone from China OR Taiwan acknowledge that the dude is pretty drat American.
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Oct 2, 2012 13:11
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God drat it I said to go away from the "here is why I am inherently superior to all people in China" rants and y'all went and did it anyway  Chinese people have weird ideas about periods-- so what? I was definitely confused by statements like "I can't ride a rollercoaster, it's *that time of the month*", but it's just an old wive's tale... I used to think I was totally devoid of silly superstitions too, until I had one of those moments Chinese roommate: Let's go outside! Me: I can't! My hair is wet! Chinese roommate: So what? Me: If I go outside with wet hair I will catch a cold. Chinese roommate: Uhh...  are you talking about? No you won't?Me: (thinks about the science of it) ....You know.. you're right. There's no reason why going out with wet hair would cause me to catch a cold.  If that example doesn't ring a bell, how about phrases like "beer before liquor, never sicker" which tons of American college students I know repeat as if it is truth? (it's not. All that matters is the amount of alcohol consumed total) Of course, I'm sure nobody in this thread ever had a silly thought ever.  Also, who says Chinese people don't know about birth control and abortion?! Don't you know "Family planning policies" are kind of a huge deal in China?? Not saying that's a good way to teach/enforce it, but at the very least I'm uh, pretty sure the concept is understood. hitension fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Oct 3, 2012 |
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Oct 3, 2012 04:21
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Yeah, it's probably more like a 3800 year history, but that sounds kinda silly. You could round up to 4000 year history, but 4 is an unlucky number. Or something. Is there a continuing civilization that is longer, though? Egypt probably..
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Oct 6, 2012 17:17
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^Sure, Japanese feel bad about the war-- they suffered a great deal from it. But it's admittedly very difficult for any nation to realize its own shortcomings and acknowledge that they also played a part in the senseless violence. The focus is overwhelmingly on "this is why it is bad that we were bombed", not "this is why things we did are wrong". To the other person who asked, there are certainly examples of rich people being cast as the villain in the US: Scrooge(a Christmas Carol is not American but the story is well known to almost every American), Monty Burns from the Simpsons, Cruella DeVil from 101 Dalmations are some I can think of.. VVV I meant Ebenezer Scrooge from the play, A Christmas Carol, not Scrooge McDuck  Wasn't Scrooge McDuck considered a good guy?There are plenty of "good guys" that are rich too so it's just anecdotal anyway (I have a whole rant about how Batman is classist as all get out but that's really, really out of the bounds of this thread...) hitension fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 22:39
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This is what constitutes an official apology from Japan, btw:quote:- “In my meeting with congressional representatives, I explained my thoughts - namely that, both personally and as Prime Minister of Japan, my heart goes out in sympathy to all those who suffered extreme hardships as comfort women; and I expressed my apologies for the fact that they were forced to endure such extreme and harsh conditions. Now, there's something to be said for the fact that this was probably translated from Japanese, which has a tendency to drop subjects. But reading this in English, it still seems pretty weaselly, especially all the passive verbs. He never comes out and directly acknowledges that Japanese caused the comfort women problem. "Human rights were violated in many parts of the world"? Really? That sounds like a shifting of the blame if anything to me. I do think it's ridiculous to endlessly blame modern Japanese people for the actions of their forefathers but I would say this falls short of being a true apology. Something like how it feels bad when Obama refers to the Armenian "atrocity" or "massacre" but refuses to use the word "genocide". Some things can't be easily quantified, but nonetheless mark a departure from expectations. The problem here perhaps is that it's not clear what if any words or actions from the Japanese would have true meaning to the Chinese, and after many years of rubbing salt in the wounds with Yasukuni visits and such it's hard to find an amenable solution. Likewise, it's probably true that the elites in China are glad to have Japan as a convenient bogeyman for calling attention away from domestic unrest. hitension fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 9, 2012 |
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Oct 9, 2012 02:14
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And I've spoken with some of the people invited to observe those elections and it's hard to say whether or not they are legit (probably varies a lot with location)
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Oct 31, 2012 12:45
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Looks pretty accurate to me, some of the translations are off but I guess they wanted the person to expand beyond "I hope I get a higher salary"
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Nov 1, 2012 23:56
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The thing that confuses me about the milk... Chinese (mainland) businesspeople are clearly losing out. Their product is viewed as inferior and as such they are selling less and less of it. A Chinese businessperson should start a firm that offers high quality formula and advertise based on this. Chinese people could pay a premium for formula sold in the mainland and still save money vis a vis going all the way to Hong Kong. Chinese in places like Shandong probably have similar concerns about food quality but are stuck because they don't live in border areas. In short there is an opportunity for profit, and Chinese are usually pretty good about seizing such opportunities. Why hasn't this happened?
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Jan 25, 2013 18:08
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In terms of orderliness, Japan > America > China. Generally speaking I agree that Americans and Chinese share some of the best and worst traits. Perhaps it's the inevitable result of being from a huge country. Petty regionalism is not so severe in the States though(it exists, but I can't imagine my parents telling me to "marry a nice Massachusetts boy", or getting really excited to see someone else from Boston in say, California)
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Jan 25, 2013 21:04
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Yeah, although the action in the photos is in incredibly poor taste, I'm not sure the way to show how much more superior and civilized you are is by recording the incident and sharing it with the internet...
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Jan 30, 2013 21:41
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Why do I suspect the relevant foreign aid agencies have bigger fish to fry than HONG KONG of all places Hong Kong people should just start to go to another nearby country that's even more uptight than they are (Japan?) and buy up all the formula there to compensate. It would work perfectly because nobody in Japan is having babies anymore anyway.
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Jan 31, 2013 03:41
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