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Space Gopher posted:The problem is, after you give kids this "$25 computer to practice basic programming on," they still need another computer to run dev tools, not to mention a monitor or TV for the Raspberry Pi itself. Meanwhile, that same computer (minus the $25 board) can run all kinds of excellent, free dev tools on a much more capable system. Sure, there's a lot of value in an inexpensive embedded system specifically as a tool for teaching embedded programming, but it's just silly to try to claim that a little dev board will somehow make it cheaper or easier to teach basic Hello World programming concepts. Just because you learned to program on a C64 doesn't mean that slavishly emulating the concept is the best way to teach programming.  What..? I.. do you even know what the Raspberry Pi is?
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Mar 5, 2012 20:43
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ppp posted:What other dev tools did you have in mind? Just about anything that runs on the Raspberry Pi, plus a lot more. People are talking about using these as teaching tools for Python; Python already runs pretty well on desktops for an additional cost of $0 (and if you want to have a consequence-free, gently caress-up-all-you-like environment, there are plenty of free virtualization solutions out there as well). Plus, desktops can run free full-size IDEs like Eclipse and Visual Studio as well, and good luck getting those going on a Raspberry Pi board. feedmegin posted:Why do you need another computer? It runs Linux, it has HDMI out, it has USB. You can plug it into an HDTV, mouse and keyboard and develop right on the board. One of the big attractions for this is "feel free to gently caress it up, you can just restore it!" You know, from that other PC you have. Not to mention, it'd sure be nice to teach people to use modern programming tools, rather than just saying "well print() statements were a good enough debugger for me..." computer viking posted:Monitors alone are dirt cheap these days, so there's some savings to be realized there. Could be useful. Savings over what, though? Most schools that want to teach programming will already have a computer lab. The ones who don't have computer labs probably can't afford $150-200 per seat for a Raspberry Pi board, monitor/TV, keyboard, mouse, and miscellaneous extras. The appropriate comparison is not "a bunch of brand new computers versus a bunch of Raspberry Pis." It's "the computers we already have, versus new hardware that's substantially less capable." This has the potential to be an interesting product. A standard, open, and dirt-cheap architecture for embedded stuff that needs decent processing power but not a full PC is pretty great, actually. But, it's certainly not going to revolutionize computer education. The problem with teaching people to program is not a lack of tools; there have been massive efforts to get computers into schools, and professional-grade tools are literally available to anyone who wants them. The problem is a lack of worthwhile curricula, a professional culture that treats more difficult as better than, and efforts like this that literally treat education as "if you build it they will come." Want to teach kids to program? Teach them to program, don't throw cheap hardware at them and say "here, go play, it was good enough for me and it's good enough for you."
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Mar 5, 2012 20:49
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Space Gopher posted:kids aren't allowed to take the school's computers home with them usually. it's nice to let them have more than 30 minutes three times a week (or whatever schedule) to work, don't you think?
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Mar 5, 2012 21:22
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Space Gopher posted:One of the big attractions for this is "feel free to gently caress it up, you can just restore it!" You know, from that other PC you have. Not to mention, it'd sure be nice to teach people to use modern programming tools, rather than just saying "well print() statements were a good enough debugger for me..." How is restoring from a PC any more simple than 'pop out the SD card and put one with a fresh image in'? And, uh, why are you talking about Visual Studio when we're talking about programming on an ARM Linux device?
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Mar 5, 2012 21:30
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DNova posted:kids aren't allowed to take the school's computers home with them usually. it's nice to let them have more than 30 minutes three times a week (or whatever schedule) to work, don't you think? So now you're talking about buying one of these for every single student? All of a sudden they're looking anything but cheap. feedmegin posted:How is restoring from a PC any more simple than 'pop out the SD card and put one with a fresh image in'? And, uh, why are you talking about Visual Studio when we're talking about programming on an ARM Linux device? It is that simple. If you have another PC handy. I'm talking about Visual Studio because it's another environment in which you can teach people how to program. And, if you've already got a PC running Windows (like practically every school computer lab), it is $25 cheaper than the least expensive Raspberry Pi.
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Mar 5, 2012 21:34
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Space Gopher posted:It is that simple. If you have another PC handy. Or, you know, just a box full of SD cards. You also seem to be rather narrowly focusing on school labs for some reason. You've got some valid points in that regard, but when the thread title say 'your kid's Commodore 64' I'm thinking more like where most of us got our Commodore 64s - as presents from our parents. This thing is a much easier 'oh hey I can get this for my kid for Christmas' proposition than a full-on PC of his or her own.
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Mar 5, 2012 21:41
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Space Gopher posted:One of the big attractions for this is "feel free to gently caress it up, you can just restore it!" You know, from that other PC you have. Not to mention, it'd sure be nice to teach people to use modern programming tools, rather than just saying "well print() statements were a good enough debugger for me..." Even if you do manage to screw up the boot, it's not like you need 1:1 desktop per raspberry pi. You just need access to a single public PC to download a unfucked SD image and load it on there. In fact, I'm betting you could get a cheapo USB SD reader, and have your friend's pi recover your SD card for you, no desktop PC at all.
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Mar 5, 2012 21:45
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The nerdrage on that charitable endeavour's website comments section is incredible.
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Mar 5, 2012 22:21
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Space Gopher posted:So now you're talking about buying one of these for every single student? All of a sudden they're looking anything but cheap. First of all, I don't give a poo poo about using these for educational tools. They can use them if they feel they will be useful for a particular curriculum, or not use them if they feel otherwise. What is the big deal about that? Nobody is forcing you to buy one, or forcing you to buy one for your kids, so what is your problem? Second, did you go to school and do anything other than the very minimum? Did you play an instrument, join a sports team, join any clubs, anything at all? All of those things cost more than $35, or at least they did when I was a kid and that was a while ago. A lot more, in fact. Hell, a single field trip sometimes cost more than $35. A Raspberry Pi for a student interested in programming is an absolutely trivial educational expense. My point is: shut the gently caress up and move on if you don't see any potential or use for this device. Nobody cares about what you think they're not useful for. The rest of us are too busy trying to narrow down what we'll do with them from the thousands of ideas we have.
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Mar 5, 2012 22:49
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So, are there people working on porting android to this? I was just discussing with a friend how this would be pretty neat for a carputer running android possibly. Is there anything about the board that would make it unsuitable or especially difficult to run Andriod on?
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Mar 5, 2012 22:54
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peepsalot posted:So, are there people working on porting android to this? I was just discussing with a friend how this would be pretty neat for a carputer running android possibly. I think it is questionable whether modern Android builds will run very well on it given the amount of memory. However it is inevitable that Android will be on it, and soon.
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Mar 5, 2012 22:58
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feedmegin posted:HDTVs are a) cheap these days (because all TVs are HD) and b) already in a lot of people's homes, even people who don't own computers (or don't want to let Junior use them), so effectively free. At that point your 'all that' is a $5 mouse and a $5 keyboard, which is pretty trivial compared to a computer. Having your kid tie up your TV set rather than your computer isn't much better really, and of course the set of people of [has no home computer] AND [buys a raspberry pi] is null. Not to say that's argument against getting one, but it's not really convenient. DNova posted:kids aren't allowed to take the school's computers home with them usually. it's nice to let them have more than 30 minutes three times a week (or whatever schedule) to work, don't you think? If you trust kids with a bare circuit board computer to not mess it up, well that's pretty silly. You'd also be relying on them having everything else needed to use it at home (compatible display, input devices, and being allowed to use all them). Tons of people still don't have TVs at home that accept HDMI, and composite SD video is pretty drat crappy for coding and use, especially if this thing can't autodetect when on composite output to adjust display. If your goal is to have something that students can take home to program on, a netbook or laptop would be far better, since it's more durable and you'll know they'll have the proper input/output.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:08
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Install Gentoo posted:If you trust kids with a bare circuit board computer to not mess it up, well that's pretty silly. You'd also be relying on them having everything else needed to use it at home (compatible display, input devices, and being allowed to use all them). Tons of people still don't have TVs at home that accept HDMI, and composite SD video is pretty drat crappy for coding and use, especially if this thing can't autodetect when on composite output to adjust display. Yes, you can trust kids with bare circuit boards to not mess it up. Some hamfists will gently caress it up but most won't. See also: musical instruments, cameras, laptops, etc. Pretty much everyone has a display that accepts HDMI. If they don't, yes, the kid could use composite, and it's not that bad. People used it for many years with great results. We have the same eyes today as we did in 1985. Keyboard and mouse: free or like $10 max. Seriously, this is the cost of a single field trip. Again, I don't care if it gets used in schools the way the foundation wants, but I see no problems with it. You guys are inventing problems.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:16
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Install Gentoo posted:Having your kid tie up your TV set rather than your computer isn't much better really, and of course the set of people of [has no home computer] AND [buys a raspberry pi] is null. Not to say that's argument against getting one, but it's not really convenient. I see somebody failed logic class. A lot of families have more than one TV, most kids these days have their own TV. The raspberry pi is not for families who lack a PC, it's for families who don't want to gently caress up their only PC because their kid's python program had an "undocumented feature". Install Gentoo posted:If you trust kids with a bare circuit board computer to not mess it up, well that's pretty silly. You'd also be relying on them having everything else needed to use it at home (compatible display, input devices, and being allowed to use all them). Tons of people still don't have TVs at home that accept HDMI, and composite SD video is pretty drat crappy for coding and use, especially if this thing can't autodetect when on composite output to adjust display. The raspberry pi FAQ states they intend to have a housing for the device by summer, they don't intend to sell the original bare PCBs to schools. Until we see the device running over composite video I would not disqualify that option. Yeah composite sucks, but it might be the only TV you have without buying a monitor. But if you could read text from an SNES or even better a WII, you can probably read the screen from the raspberry pi. A netbook or laptop would be nice, although far more fragile (spinning hard drive, hinge, built in crushable screen, etc) and would cost a lot more than $25.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:26
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Jesus guys someone makes a $35 PC and you bitch that it doesn't come with a keyboard, monitor, and disk included. It's still orders of magnitude cheaper than a real PC and there are many aspects of this the real PC just can't touch (extremely low-power, fanless operation, GPIO capabilities, etc). If you don't like it, go buy a real PC, problem solved. HDMI->DVI converters are like 5 bux on eBay and then you can use any monitor you want. Go to Goodwill and buy yourself a loving USB mouse and keyboard, that's probably another $5 or $10, if you have a phone that uses the same plug the power adapter is free (if not, another 5bux), small SD cards are <$1/gb, so worst case you're talking like $75 all up presuming you at least have a monitor or TV.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:31
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DNova posted:Yes, you can trust kids with bare circuit boards to not mess it up. Some hamfists will gently caress it up but most won't. See also: musical instruments, cameras, laptops, etc. About 70% of Americans have HDTVs. Not all of those have HDMI in, many are older and don't have it. That's 30% or more of your potential students who may be stuck on composite displays. So that's going to be a problem if you're going to have them write graphical programs since 480i is going to require compromises to display things well. And maybe you've forgotten but programming on 480i composite displays was annoying as hell back then and still is today, if you want the text to be clear when you're doing it you're talking 40 column 20 something line displays, and that's going to be different from the programming environment on the same thing at school with real monitors. And something being "the cost of a field trip" isn't going to guarantee your students have it, you simply can't rely on their parents buying it. Noone's inventing problems for an education environment here, if you're saying these are good to have students take home, that's pretty much just wrong since they don't have everything you need built in. Colonel Sanders posted:I see somebody failed logic class. A lot of families have more than one TV, most kids these days have their own TV. The raspberry pi is not for families who lack a PC, it's for families who don't want to gently caress up their only PC because their kid's python program had an "undocumented feature". If only there were languagues that ran in some kind of virtual machine... too bad noone invented those and implemented them in popular school programming curricula. You don't program on an SNES or Wii. All devices running on composite video are bad for displaying a lot of text clearly, you don't need to wait to see for that because composite video hasn't changed over the past decades. Well the raspberry pi isn't a viable replacement precisely because it's not a standalone device - if you give students a netbook or laptop you know they'll definitely be able to use the screen and type on it. You can't just go "this is cheaper" and expect it to work out. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Mar 5, 2012 |
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Mar 5, 2012 23:35
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Install Gentoo posted:About 70% of Americans have HDTVs. Not all of those have HDMI in, many are older and don't have it. That's 30% or more of your potential students who may be stuck on composite displays. So that's going to be a problem if you're going to have them write graphical programs since 480i is going to require compromises to display things well. good lord, man.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:36
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The real capability of this device is that it's Good Enough. It's a simple, configurable way to get data from point A to point B. You can interface any standalone USB device and get the data where it's supposed to go (via USB enclosure or network). For example, a theater PC is now a Raspberry Pi + a Happaggue HD-PVR + a USB disk, you can stream poo poo off the network or disk, or record component video in, and it consumes like 15w including drive. Meanwhile you can also do all your file/print serving, torrenting, etc off the same box. This thing is going to absolutely devastate the low-end device market, it sets a pretty firm upper limit for what your solution can cost. Why would I buy a $100 Blueray player when I could get a Blueray drive + enclosure + Rpi for the same price, which will also walk my dog and suck my dick?
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Mar 5, 2012 23:39
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DNova posted:good lord, man. Yeah good lord, I actually thought through the problems in using these for take-home school poo poo.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:40
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Install Gentoo posted:Yeah good lord, I actually thought through the problems in using these for take-home school poo poo. Please, continue telling us why this thing is a horrible idea while we all buy up our $35 Apple TV replacements.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:41
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Install Gentoo posted:Yeah good lord, I actually thought through the problems in using these for take-home school poo poo. No, you really didn't. You conjured up a bunch of nonsense. Parents of freaking 5 year olds have to spend like $100 just on a mandatory list of school supplies (stationery and things) at the beginning of every school year. And you think these kids are going home to a house with no televisions, no way to spend $25 or $35 on a computer, impossible to obtain such exotic hardware as a keyboard and mouse, etc. Do you think all these kids in programming classes go home to a thicket in the woods or something?
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Mar 5, 2012 23:44
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I just bought one so I can use it as a cheap media streamer.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:47
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OptimusMatrix posted:I just bought one so I can use it as a cheap media streamer.  Anyone know if this thing will suppport SDXC cards?
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Mar 5, 2012 23:50
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peepsalot posted:RaspBMC is gonna own so hard Ooh, I hadn't thought of that. I'm thinking of picking one up if it takes off - I'm not a programmer but I could really get behind having a little "do-anything" board.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:57
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peepsalot posted:RaspBMC is gonna own so hard Yes it does.
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Mar 5, 2012 23:59
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peepsalot posted:RaspBMC is gonna own so hard OpenELEC also runs on raspberry pi already.
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Mar 6, 2012 00:02
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peepsalot posted:So, are there people working on porting android to this? I was just discussing with a friend how this would be pretty neat for a carputer running android possibly. I'm curious about what you're imagining for your carputer... how would a rasp-pi-droid device be a better idea than simply buying a stock android tablet? I can't imagine it could get any less expensive when you'd need to bring in some sort of display.
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Mar 6, 2012 00:04
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peepsalot posted:RaspBMC is gonna own so hard It also supports HDMI-CEC so there shouldn't be any need for an IR dongle.
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Mar 6, 2012 00:11
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IOwnCalculus posted:Please, continue telling us why this thing is a horrible idea while we all buy up our $35 Apple TV replacements. Dude you can buy 500 of them if you want, just don't go around saying they'd be good to give kids for take home programming poo poo (which you aren't). DNova posted:No, you really didn't. You conjured up a bunch of nonsense. Parents of freaking 5 year olds have to spend like $100 just on a mandatory list of school supplies (stationery and things) at the beginning of every school year. You can get all the school supplies a kid needs for a year for way less than even the cost of a mouse and keyboard, and you always have to buy them anyway (not to mention that many schools give them away). Who said they have no televisions? I said tons of kids won't be able to use them on the TVs they have, and newsflash: non-spergs don't just buy extra mice and keyboards around the house. You simply can't expect all your students to have everything they need to use one of these at home - that's why it's a poo poo idea to recommend them for take-home programming stuff. It's really stupid that you expect that every student would have everything needed to actually use one of these at home. And the fact that you think not having spare electronics for a raspberry pi sitting around the house = shack in the woods is pretty telling of how out of touch you are.
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Mar 6, 2012 00:30
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Install Gentoo posted:Who said they have no televisions? I said tons of kids won't be able to use them on the TVs they have, and newsflash: non-spergs don't just buy extra mice and keyboards around the house. quote:You simply can't expect all your students to have everything they need to use one of these at home - that's why it's a poo poo idea to recommend them for take-home programming stuff. It's really stupid that you expect that every student would have everything needed to actually use one of these at home. It's really stupid that you expect that the vast majority of kids who have access to a computer science curriculum would not be able to afford to get totally loving kitted out with one of these. These kids already have laptops. Get off it already. quote:And the fact that you think not having spare electronics for a raspberry pi sitting around the house = shack in the woods is pretty telling of how out of touch you are. Nice straw-man, but it's not working. Let me summarize: Your argument: "  you can't expect kids to have access to a television or fifty dollars!"My argument: "yes you can" sleepy gary fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 6, 2012 |
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Mar 6, 2012 01:00
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DNova posted:It's really stupid that you expect that the vast majority of kids who have access to a computer science curriculum would not be able to afford to get totally loving kitted out with one of these. These kids already have laptops. Get off it already. In that case, what advantage does an RP give them over their, yknow, laptop? Just curious. I've heard people say "oh they can do systems-level programming without loving anything up!" but I'm not sure why that's even something you would want to teach middle/high school students in 2012.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:02
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Anal Tributary posted:In that case, what advantage does an RP give them over their, yknow, laptop? Just curious. I've heard people say "oh they can do systems-level programming without loving anything up!" but I'm not sure why that's even something you would want to teach middle/high school students in 2012. Let me repeat myself here: I am not arguing FOR RPi's use in the classroom. I'm arguing against the asinine reasons people are saying they're bunk for that purpose. But if you want me to think of some reasons, here goes: 1) You can talk to RPi with GPIO and custom electronics, sensors, robotics, you name it. You might not want to let kids attach homebrew electronics to a computer that may be essential to their other academics. 2) Cheap to the point of being disposable, as has been mentioned, despite some people asserting that these are a financial burden. 3) Unified architecture and hardware -- every student has a homogenous dev kit. No issues with software compatibility or hardware being absent or anything like that. Very useful for having a standard curriculum (and I am assuming this wouldn't be just Python programming or something, but that they'd go a bit deeper (assembly, etc)). There are probably other reasons, but I haven't thought about it much because I don't care about this aspect of the device. Basically, all of these needs would be met by an Arduino, but Arduino is the same price as RPi, so that's kind of a toss-up and depends on what or how you want to teach, I guess.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:09
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DNova posted:Newsflash: Mice and keyboards are dirt loving cheap. You are a dirtbag piece of poo poo if you can't afford that for your kid. Do you have any idea how much it costs kids to play sports or learn a musical instrument or any of the other things I have said? A lot more than this will ever cost. You're so clueless here. We neve rhad to pay for sports equipment for gym class, and if you wanted to be in the band they had school-owned kinda crappy instruments kids who couldn't afford their own would use. Also yeah wow all poor people are pieces of poo poo, nice opinion Mitt Romney. That's not stupid at all, it's reality. What kids already have laptops? You're seriously claiming that everyone has laptops for their kids now? If they have laptops then why not have them use that instead of this? There's no strawmen here. And you're pretty drat out of touch and nerdy to think everyone has what they'd need already for their kid to use one of these at home. I mean seriously do you not even know that poor people exist? And their kids go to school? Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Mar 6, 2012 |
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Mar 6, 2012 01:09
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Install Gentoo posted:You're so clueless here. We neve rhad to pay for sports equipment for gym class, and if you wanted to be in the band they had school-owned kinda crappy instruments kids who couldn't afford their own would use. Also yeah wow all poor people are pieces of poo poo, nice opinion Mitt Romney. I said sports, not gym class. Those are different things, you see. Where I grew up (lower-middle class at best), sports all cost quite a lot to join. Learning an instrument, you could RENT the school's crappy stuff every year or buy your own. Again, not cheap. And every year I remember my parents shelling out at least $40-100 on field trips, most of which were totally worthless, not to mention random required garbage (plastic recorders, books, etc). I guess you went to more affluent set of schools than I did. I keep saying that keyboards and mice are cheap if they don't have them (I've said this like four times can you please do me a favor and read my posts more carefully?), not that everyone will have them at home... you keep saying that not me. I even said "fifty dollars" in my last post to help you understand that I am including those items in the outlay. And I don't think it's out of touch and "nerdy" that I expect everyone has a television.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:20
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DNova posted:I said sports, not gym class. Those are different things, you see. Where I grew up (lower-middle class at best), sports all cost quite a lot to join. Learning an instrument, you could RENT the school's crappy stuff every year or buy your own. Again, not cheap. And every year I remember my parents shelling out at least $40-100 on field trips, most of which were totally worthless, not to mention random required garbage (plastic recorders, books, etc). You're specifically saying these would be part of a programming class: that is the same as gym, not after school sports. You don't have to pay poo poo to play a sport in gym class. And ok so you've finally realized that people might not be able to afford things for a class, but don't get that that's bad. Saying keyboards and mice are cheap is pointless: that doesn't mean everyone can afford them. Like you seem to think that "cheap" ="everyone can buy it". It's out of touch and nerdy to expect everyone to have a television that the kid will be able and allowed to use for this, and also the other necessary equipment.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:25
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Install Gentoo posted:You're specifically saying these would be part of a programming class: that is the same as gym, not after school sports. You don't have to pay poo poo to play a sport in gym class. And ok so you've finally realized that people might not be able to afford things for a class, but don't get that that's bad. I have no idea how it would be set up in schools, but here, gym was mandatory for graduation. We had choices in what "specialized" classes to take, as long as you met all the requirements (it's been a while and I don't remember the specifics). The way I'm assuming "programming class" (hopefully it'd be a little more generic computer science with some applications) would be one of these types of electives. If your family truly, honestly can't afford fifty bucks for your education, then you're probably not living in a school district that has a programming class in the first place. I don't know what to tell you. Fifty dollars is a drop in the bucket for any given year worth of required purchases for a child in school. edit: Or five packs of cigarettes.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:35
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DNova posted:I have no idea how it would be set up in schools, but here, gym was mandatory for graduation. We had choices in what "specialized" classes to take, as long as you met all the requirements (it's been a while and I don't remember the specifics). The way I'm assuming "programming class" (hopefully it'd be a little more generic computer science with some applications) would be one of these types of electives. So you actually want programming classes to start costing money, so that students will have to take home something that they may not be able to use? What's wrong with doing what schools with programming classes do now where you are given access to what you need for it for free? You actually think there's no such thing as poor people in any school with a programming class? Are you high? What are you trying to imply, that anyone who can't afford buying extra stuff for their kid smokes too much?
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Mar 6, 2012 01:40
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Install Gentoo posted:So you actually want programming classes to start costing money, so that students will have to take home something that they may not be able to use? What's wrong with doing what schools with programming classes do now where you are given access to what you need for it for free? Dude. Calm down.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:43
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No whats beaning said is that you have the RPi in a Computer Science class, everyone learns on the RPi. Several are really nerdy about it the teacher can order a batch of them + value accessory bundle for them to take home. All at minimal cost.
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Mar 6, 2012 01:44
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DNova posted:Dude. Calm down. How about you smarten up and realize that classes requiring students buying extra stuff is a bad idea for your average school? And stop saying poo poo about how about if parents can't afford to buy this stuff they're bad people. You said "You are a dirtbag piece of poo poo if you can't afford that for your kid", that's straight up disgusting. Jigoku San posted:No whats beaning said is that you have the RPi in a Computer Science class, everyone learns on the RPi. Several are really nerdy about it the teacher can order a batch of them + value accessory bundle for them to take home. All at minimal cost. It was explicitly being said that students would have to bring the raspberry pi home to do their assignments - and that's what I have a beef with. Using them in class itself is fine because the school would have everything needed to use them. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Mar 6, 2012 |
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Mar 6, 2012 01:47
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