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mombot
Sep 28, 2010

mmmmmwah - Trophy kisses!

Instant Jellyfish posted:

I've seen this brand of FD Liver in most pet stores and it really is like dog crack. I just make my own baked liver now because it's way cheaper. Just boil some liver slices for about 10 minutes, drain, and bake for 2-3 hours then cut into itty bitty pieces for a super high value treat. If you're just doing regular daily training MrFurious is right and using the pup's regular meals is a great idea.

Dawn dishwashing soap works fine for stinky puppies. I really like biogroom protein lanolin shampoo if you want to get fancier. It's light, easy to wash out, and isn't super perfume-y.

Sorry - bake at what temp? I bought some beef liver and chicken livers. I do raw 2-3 times a week and was going to add that in, but I like the idea of making treats even more. I really need to do some major work with Coco (wanting to train her to be a therapy dog).

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Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



mombot posted:

Sorry - bake at what temp? I bought some beef liver and chicken livers. I do raw 2-3 times a week and was going to add that in, but I like the idea of making treats even more. I really need to do some major work with Coco (wanting to train her to be a therapy dog).

Derp. 200 F should work. Just flip it every hour or so and take it out when its hard.

Koth
Jul 1, 2005
I have a question about house-training. My ultimate goal is to have our puppy pee and poo outside in the back yard, but I'm a little confused as to how I go from having the puppy know to pee and poo on a pad in his long-term confined area to having him bark at the door when he needs to go out.

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Koth posted:

I have a question about house-training. My ultimate goal is to have our puppy pee and poo outside in the back yard, but I'm a little confused as to how I go from having the puppy know to pee and poo on a pad in his long-term confined area to having him bark at the door when he needs to go out.

Why bother with the half-measure of using a pad? If you want your pup to always eliminate outside then your best bet is to start imposing that now. I know many, many dogs who were litter/pad trained who never really understood the difference between a pee pad and a bath mat, or an area rug. I strongly suggest NOT using a pad, and just be a bit more proactive/involved in the housebreaking process.

And some dogs never bark by the door to be let out. I, for example, have a dog who gets a little more clingy when she needs to pee. It's a tough sign to notice, especially when she gets clingy when she's hungry or bored too. But eventually you notice the subtle differences between the signals. Basically, don't assume you're going to get something obvious. Consider bell training if you want obvious, but be prepared for the dog ringing bells when it's bored/hungry/whatever too.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Koth posted:

I have a question about house-training. My ultimate goal is to have our puppy pee and poo outside in the back yard, but I'm a little confused as to how I go from having the puppy know to pee and poo on a pad in his long-term confined area to having him bark at the door when he needs to go out.

As alifeless stated, I don't really understand how a pee pad came into the mix to begin with. Did you read the house-training guide in the OP?

Koth
Jul 1, 2005

MrFurious posted:

As alifeless stated, I don't really understand how a pee pad came into the mix to begin with. Did you read the house-training guide in the OP?

No, I got it from Dr. Ian Dunbar. He writes that you should use a pee pad in the puppy's long-term confinement area.

Actually, he doesn't specifically mention a pee pad. He writes a "toilet".

Koth fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Apr 24, 2012

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

Koth posted:

I have a question about house-training. My ultimate goal is to have our puppy pee and poo outside in the back yard, but I'm a little confused as to how I go from having the puppy know to pee and poo on a pad in his long-term confined area to having him bark at the door when he needs to go out.
When you are at home (and the puppy isn't confined) you take him out after he has eaten, after he wakes up from a nap and after an involved play session or on a set schedule (mixing is probably the best idea). You may also want to watch for behavioral cues and some puppies gravitate towards their designated potty area, when they need to go, which is an easy cue to read. As he grows older he can hold it for longer periods of time and eventually (somewhere around the five-seven month mark) you'll notice, that there are very few accidents and the pee pad isn't used nearly every day. At that time you might want to remove the pad, but it might be a good idea to put one down, if the puppy has to be alone for an extended period of time.

edit: Crating isn't illegal in Europe due to its association with puppy mills.

Riiseli fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 24, 2012

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Koth posted:

No, I got it from Dr. Ian Dunbar. He writes that you should use a pee pad in the puppy's long-term confinement area.

Actually, he doesn't specifically mention a pee pad. He writes a "toilet".

The implication in his book there is that you're gone for an extended period of time, longer than the dog can hold it at that age -- hence a pen, rather than just the dog's crate. In addition, note that in the picture he uses a small square of sod, rather than a pee-pad. This is because dogs essentially train themselves to go in certain spots based upon a combination of smell and texture. Pee-pads encourage soiling on them because they smell like more pee. The reason for using sod is to train the dog that the appropriate place to relieve themselves is in the grass.

If you haven't done so already, I would strongly recommend that you read the Housetraining Guide I wrote and linked in the OP.

Build-a-Boar
Feb 11, 2008

Lipstick Apathy
I don't really understand where the idea of puppy pee pads came from. I don't understand why it wouldn't always be better to teach a dog right from the off that outside = toilet, and inside = no toilet at all ever. I mean I know the training is a pain in the rear end (I won't forget two weeks of getting up four times every night in a hurry) but it was just two weeks of inconvenience, whereas pee pads might affect a dog's toilet training for a drat long time.

Also you absolutely will learn to pick up your dog's cues when she needs something in particular. I had a seriously hard time believing this a few months ago, because how is my dog snuffling around any different from how she normally snuffles around this is impossible to tell!! but now I've gotten to the point where I can predict pretty much anything she's gonna do ten seconds before she even does it, haha. Her sign for 'hey I gotta pee' was to walk up to me and stare at me intently, checking I was watching and then walking over to the door of whatever room we were in. If the door was open she'd lead me to the back door and staaare.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

dog days are over posted:

I don't really understand where the idea of puppy pee pads came from. I don't understand why it wouldn't always be better to teach a dog right from the off that outside = toilet, and inside = no toilet at all ever. I mean I know the training is a pain in the rear end (I won't forget two weeks of getting up four times every night in a hurry) but it was just two weeks of inconvenience, whereas pee pads might affect a dog's toilet training for a drat long time.

Also you absolutely will learn to pick up your dog's cues when she needs something in particular. I had a seriously hard time believing this a few months ago, because how is my dog snuffling around any different from how she normally snuffles around this is impossible to tell!! but now I've gotten to the point where I can predict pretty much anything she's gonna do ten seconds before she even does it, haha. Her sign for 'hey I gotta pee' was to walk up to me and stare at me intently, checking I was watching and then walking over to the door of whatever room we were in. If the door was open she'd lead me to the back door and staaare.

I know some breeders use pads when the dogs are very, very young. At that age they really have no bladder control, just like human babies, but the scent of the pads tends to provoke relieving themselves. As the dogs get older that pad will move closer to the door and eventually outside, so that at 6 weeks, they may even be fully housetrained.

Also, keep in mind that some people own dogs in very urban areas and don't have access to a yard, or fast access to the outdoors.

And I've covered bell cues in the housetraining guide.

Koth
Jul 1, 2005

MrFurious posted:

The implication in his book there is that you're gone for an extended period of time, longer than the dog can hold it at that age -- hence a pen, rather than just the dog's crate. In addition, note that in the picture he uses a small square of sod, rather than a pee-pad. This is because dogs essentially train themselves to go in certain spots based upon a combination of smell and texture. Pee-pads encourage soiling on them because they smell like more pee. The reason for using sod is to train the dog that the appropriate place to relieve themselves is in the grass.

If you haven't done so already, I would strongly recommend that you read the Housetraining Guide I wrote and linked in the OP.

Yes, I did read it. It's very similar to Dr. Ian Dunbar's method. But you make a point of saying not to free-feed, and Dr. Dunbar says you should only feed your puppy with the use of Kong toys for the first while so they develop good chewing habits.

I do plan to take him outside while I'm home. The toilet in his long-term confinement area was only for when I'm not home. I can see how a dog would mistake any area rug for a pee pad, though, so I suppose they aren't very good to use.

It's going to be hard to find a piece of sod at this time of year though. I'll see if any of the nursery's have any sod yet.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Koth posted:

Yes, I did read it. It's very similar to Dr. Ian Dunbar's method. But you make a point of saying not to free-feed, and Dr. Dunbar says you should only feed your puppy with the use of Kong toys for the first while so they develop good chewing habits.

Free-feeding is where you just leave food out all the time and the dog eats whenever. You can still feed food in kongs or toys, just leave it out for a set time and then put it away again. That way the dog learns to eat when it's eating time and you avoid them getting picky or eating too much or resource guarding.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Koth posted:

Yes, I did read it. It's very similar to Dr. Ian Dunbar's method. But you make a point of saying not to free-feed, and Dr. Dunbar says you should only feed your puppy with the use of Kong toys for the first while so they develop good chewing habits.

I do plan to take him outside while I'm home. The toilet in his long-term confinement area was only for when I'm not home. I can see how a dog would mistake any area rug for a pee pad, though, so I suppose they aren't very good to use.

It's going to be hard to find a piece of sod at this time of year though. I'll see if any of the nursery's have any sod yet.

How long are you gone during the day? If it's a standard work day, Dunbar's method is appropriate, but if we're talking about just a couple of hours while you run errands or something, then you're overthinking it and just a crate will do.

Koth
Jul 1, 2005
He will be alone for five hours in the morning before I come home for lunch. Then another two hours after I go back to work and before my wife gets home.

MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Koth posted:

He will be alone for five hours in the morning before I come home for lunch. Then another two hours after I go back to work and before my wife gets home.

If the dog is older than 5 months, you can stick with just a crate, with the assumption that you are punctual during your lunch break. Otherwise, the confinement area is probably best for now.

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.
Campbell my cocker spaniel puppy seems to be going backwards in his happy sleep patterns. He's now crying at 6am. He isn't desperate for the toilet, he's just desperate for attention. No matter how long I leave him and/or try to ignore him he continues the howling until someone goes and gets him. If its my partner he will just run straight up to me instead of wanting to go out a walk.

I'm trying to avoid letting him sleep upstairs with us as when we go on vacation he won't be able to sleep in the room with my dad who is going to be watching him. I'm totally up for letting him sleep up here once we come home, but for now I am still hopelessly searching for a solution to the howling at 6am :( its so exhausting being woken up by that noise every morning.

I take him out plenty big walks and he goes out before bed for a not bad sized walk. I've tried taking him an hour walk before bed but it makes no difference!

Should I continue as best as I can with the ignoring? We are currently ignoring til 7am which is the time we get up for work.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes
Time to start waking up at 6am. The howling/barking is self-reinforcing so the more he does it now, the more likely he is to do it later. Ignoring it isn't enough to stop it. Think of him as a little life coach and in a few months when he's older, he'll start sleeping in more and so can you.

One thing to keep in mind is that he's probably waking up earlier and waiting for a bit before the howling starts. If you can get to him then and reinforce that, it should be worth it later on.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

I disagree. Barking is self-reinforcing when it is due to boredom or stress, but when it is attention seeking, then the dog will be very reinforced when he receives the attention he is craving. I would continue to ignore him and not let him dictate your schedule. He only gets attention when he is being quiet. There is no guarantee that he will start sleeping later when he gets older* (a friend of mine's dogs get him up at 5am every day and they are old) so don't start a habit of letting him push you around.

That said, there are things you can try. Play music or white noise and/or cover the crate. You can also try saying, just once, 'That's enough' or 'Quiet'. Some dogs will settle if they realize that you hear them but aren't coming to give them attention or let them out. Just don't overdo it.

Also remember that if you've been giving in to his crying, then it will get worse before it gets better. If it worked a couple times, then he'll try harder before he realizes that it isn't going to work again and cuts it out.

*I forget how old your puppy is, but even if he's super young, if you're sure that it's just for attention and the reward of getting to come hang out with you on the bed or whatever instead of needing to pee, then I definitely wouldn't give in.

El Gar
Apr 12, 2007

Hey Trophy...

What's the light situation where this dog is sleeping? Maybe it's just getting lighter earlier so it thinks it's time to get up. If that's the case simply darkening the room may help.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Kiri koli posted:

I disagree. Barking is self-reinforcing when it is due to boredom...

I think her puppy is bored after being in the crate ~8 hours. Right now it's whining from 6am to 7am, they wake up and let it out. If it's willing to do the behaviour for an hour before getting the result, I conclude they enjoy doing it. When they do wake up, they'll have to let the dog out so they can go to work so it's going to get reinforced eventually anyways.

Kiri koli posted:

There is no guarantee that he will start sleeping later when he gets older* (a friend of mine's dogs get him up at 5am every day and they are old) so don't start a habit of letting him push you around.

I didn't guarantee it. The large majority of dogs sleep more as they get older. Also, the dog isn't pushing them around, dictating their schedule or any kind of anthropomorphic bullying analogy. It just wants to hang out and do something more fun than being in a crate.

6 am isn't that early, just wake up a bit earlier and spend every minute with an awesome puppy that you can, they grow up too quick.

Postess with the Mostest fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Apr 27, 2012

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

Ikantski posted:

I think her puppy is bored after being in the crate ~8 hours. Right now it's whining from 6am to 7am, they wake up and let it out. If it's willing to do the behaviour for an hour before getting the result, I conclude they enjoy doing it. When they do wake up, they'll have to let the dog out so they can go to work so it's going to get reinforced eventually anyways.


I didn't guarantee it. The large majority of dogs sleep more as they get older. Also, the dog isn't pushing them around, dictating their schedule or any kind of anthropomorphic bullying analogy. It just wants to hang out and do something more fun than being in a crate.

6 am isn't that early, just wake up a bit earlier and spend every minute with an awesome puppy that you can, they grow up too quick.

He didn't say when they go to bed, so it may not be 8 hours, not that that would be terrible. My dog whined for hours when we first got her and she couldn't sleep. An hour is nothing. When they wake up, they should wait for the dog to be silent (even for a second!) before letting him out so as not to reinforce the whining. This may take some effort for a while, but it's worth it. If they reinforce the whining by letting the dog out, then what happens when the dog decides that it wants to get up at 5am?

Some people don't want to get up that early, whether you think it isn't that early or not. Dogs benefit from learning boundaries and schedules and how to properly request things such as attention.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Kiri koli posted:

If they reinforce the whining by letting the dog out, then what happens when the dog decides that it wants to get up at 5am?

I suggested they wake up slightly before the whining begins so there is no whining to reinforce. The dog may decide to start whining earlier but it could decide to do that whether they let it out at 6 or 7? I think it would be more likely to whine more if it practices for an hour every day. Either way, I don't think there is a quick solution to the problem.

My theory is that the dog will sleep later as it gets older so it's a short term management step. Take away the whining practice while the desire to wake up so early fades gradually. The darker room idea mentioned could also help.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

tiddlez posted:

Campbell my cocker spaniel puppy seems to be going backwards in his happy sleep patterns. He's now crying at 6am. He isn't desperate for the toilet, he's just desperate for attention. No matter how long I leave him and/or try to ignore him he continues the howling until someone goes and gets him. If its my partner he will just run straight up to me instead of wanting to go out a walk.

I'm trying to avoid letting him sleep upstairs with us as when we go on vacation he won't be able to sleep in the room with my dad who is going to be watching him. I'm totally up for letting him sleep up here once we come home, but for now I am still hopelessly searching for a solution to the howling at 6am :( its so exhausting being woken up by that noise every morning.

I take him out plenty big walks and he goes out before bed for a not bad sized walk. I've tried taking him an hour walk before bed but it makes no difference!

Should I continue as best as I can with the ignoring? We are currently ignoring til 7am which is the time we get up for work.

Would it be possible to leave a bone or safe chew toy in there for her? My dog goes to bed with his favorite chew so if he wakes up he has something to do for a bit.

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.
Thanks for all the replies. He's almost 9months old. I was sure it was the fact that the mornings got brighter earlier, so I started putting a blanket over the window. This worked for like a week, and I thought we were sorted, but then he went back to getting up earlier. This morning it was just after 5am he started.

He has some chew toys and stuff in with him, so it's as though he's choosing to ignore them. If I could get up at 5am and still function as a normal person I would totally do it and love it, but getting up at 5am before the howling starts, and not starting work til 9am and then working all day and being awake enough to have the good fun we usually have at night, is impossible. I am struggling even with the 6am.

I think it's a simple case of waiting it out for long enough to hope he gets the idea? I will try the white noise and also the 'Thats enough' tomorrow morning to see how that goes. Everything else about him is awesome, he's so well behaved and clever but he's just not getting the sleep thing.

He usually goes to bed around 10/10:30. But on nights when my partners working he'll take him out when he gets home which is sometimes like 1/3am and he will still get up at 6.

(I know it's for attention because when we had a night out and were a bit drunk I fell asleep before taking him downstairs, and he slept right through. He woke up, but just came and settled closer to me and got comfy.)

mombot
Sep 28, 2010

mmmmmwah - Trophy kisses!

I definitely agree with just verbally letting him know you're there and to hush. I have to do that with Coco, who is about the same age. She'll start barking and I just tell her to hush and she hushes. I think she just wants to make sure I'm still there and that I know she's there.

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

dog days are over posted:

I don't really understand where the idea of puppy pee pads came from. I don't understand why it wouldn't always be better to teach a dog right from the off that outside = toilet, and inside = no toilet at all ever. I mean I know the training is a pain in the rear end (I won't forget two weeks of getting up four times every night in a hurry) but it was just two weeks of inconvenience, whereas pee pads might affect a dog's toilet training for a drat long time.
I'd say the idea is from nine-to-five jobs (here it's actually eight-to-four) as no eight week old puppy can hold for 8hrs plus. If one were not working it would definitely be better to teach a puppy to only eliminate outdoors. As crating is illegal here some accidents are usually prone to happen, but those don't end up costing too much.

My first puppy was actually fool proof at seven weeks old and actually scratched the door every time she needed to get out. But I was working at a farm (she came with me and spent her days with other dogs in the yard, so my working schedule was a non-issue) and wasn't able to do a full days of work with a disturbed sleeping schedule, so she had to learn to go on paper again. It took a couple of months to get her fully potty trained with nine hour nights, but for my general health this was a better solution at the time.

You'll want to know that pretty much nobody has carpet flooring and area rugs are almost always removed until a dog is fully housetrained. So the only option for a bare floor is the newspaper (or rarely a pee pad) provided. And puppies prefer a more absorbent material, which is less slippery than the floor. Ergo they learn to relieve themselves on paper (this usually happens at the breeders home already). I have actually been able to teach two of my latest litters to be foolproof about going either on paper or outdoors that some of the owners never needed to remove their area rugs. When there are no accidents on paper they are removed and you have a housetrained dog. One might want to keep the area rugs away for maybe even a month after that.

Crating isn't illegal in Europe due to its association with puppy mills.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


Speaking of puppies toileting on newspaper/pee pads whilst their owner is out, Lola is still doing that. The dogs are in the kitchen while I'm gone (as its the only non-carpet room) and she goes on the newspaper 99% of the time, but she's like eighteen months now and she still toilets on the floor.

I clean it up each time with enzyme cleaner and disinfectant, but it's still happening. Even if I'm only gone for two hours or so and I took her on a long walk before, there's almost always at least pee to clean up. Is she ever going to grow out of it?

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~

Fraction posted:

Speaking of puppies toileting on newspaper/pee pads whilst their owner is out, Lola is still doing that. The dogs are in the kitchen while I'm gone (as its the only non-carpet room) and she goes on the newspaper 99% of the time, but she's like eighteen months now and she still toilets on the floor.

I clean it up each time with enzyme cleaner and disinfectant, but it's still happening. Even if I'm only gone for two hours or so and I took her on a long walk before, there's almost always at least pee to clean up. Is she ever going to grow out of it?

What happens if you take the newspaper away entirely? It might be that she just isn't holding it because she doesn't feel she has to since there is a pee spot? (Not sure if I'm giving dogs too much credit here)

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

Kerfuffle posted:

What happens if you take the newspaper away entirely? It might be that she just isn't holding it because she doesn't feel she has to since there is a pee spot? (Not sure if I'm giving dogs too much credit here)
This happens.

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


If I take it away she just pees in that area anyway :saddowns:

E:
Well, she used to. I'll have to try giving her no newspaper soon, the next time I'm gone for a while.

Fraction fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Apr 27, 2012

Riiseli
Apr 10, 2011
I'm not a BYB because I live in an apartment.

Fraction posted:

If I take it away she just pees in that area anyway :saddowns:

E:
Well, she used to. I'll have to try giving her no newspaper soon, the next time I'm gone for a while.
And maybe put something there instead. A chair, a piece of wire mesh, a (closed) crate, so that specific spot isn't available.

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

tiddlez posted:

I think it's a simple case of waiting it out for long enough to hope he gets the idea? I will try the white noise and also the 'Thats enough' tomorrow morning to see how that goes. Everything else about him is awesome, he's so well behaved and clever but he's just not getting the sleep thing.

Pretty much, yes. What you're attempting to do by ignoring him is extinguish his whining/crying-to-be-let-out behavior. Dogs do things that are rewarding or reinforcing and behaviors that are not reinforced will disappear. The tricky part is realizing that the dog decides what is reinforcing. The typical example is a dog that jumps on you when you get home. Petting/playing with him is reinforcing, but the dog might also be reinforced by ANY attention at all, including you saying 'NO!' and shoving him back down, which you think is an aversive. Standing still like a tree and completely ignoring him, on the other hand, is not reinforcing (for most dogs) and will eventually extinguish the behavior.

So if your dog wants attention and is explicitly not getting it when he whines, the behavior will eventually be extinguished. You have to be careful and never give in though. When it's time to get up, wait for silence before the dog is let out. At first, this may mean waiting for a while and accepting only a split-second of silence, but you can build up from there.

tiddlez
Nov 25, 2006

Nice shirt, Gaywad.

Kiri koli posted:

Pretty much, yes. What you're attempting to do by ignoring him is extinguish his whining/crying-to-be-let-out behavior. Dogs do things that are rewarding or reinforcing and behaviors that are not reinforced will disappear. The tricky part is realizing that the dog decides what is reinforcing. The typical example is a dog that jumps on you when you get home. Petting/playing with him is reinforcing, but the dog might also be reinforced by ANY attention at all, including you saying 'NO!' and shoving him back down, which you think is an aversive. Standing still like a tree and completely ignoring him, on the other hand, is not reinforcing (for most dogs) and will eventually extinguish the behavior.

So if your dog wants attention and is explicitly not getting it when he whines, the behavior will eventually be extinguished. You have to be careful and never give in though. When it's time to get up, wait for silence before the dog is let out. At first, this may mean waiting for a while and accepting only a split-second of silence, but you can build up from there.

Thanks for this. I really just wanted confirmation that I am doing the right thing by ignoring him. Generally he will cry non stop. I wait for a split second of silence and i will cough or stand up and this keeps him quiet. Then when he is still quiet I shout down that I'm just coming, and then i use the bathroom etc and then head down and let him out the kitchen and we go out for a walk!

When I go down he is obviously SUPER excited that someone is finally there, should I just be like silent and put his lead on or is it okay to be like, heyyyyy and give him a cuddle?

Kiri koli
Jun 20, 2005
Also, I can kill you with my brain.

tiddlez posted:

Thanks for this. I really just wanted confirmation that I am doing the right thing by ignoring him. Generally he will cry non stop. I wait for a split second of silence and i will cough or stand up and this keeps him quiet. Then when he is still quiet I shout down that I'm just coming, and then i use the bathroom etc and then head down and let him out the kitchen and we go out for a walk!

When I go down he is obviously SUPER excited that someone is finally there, should I just be like silent and put his lead on or is it okay to be like, heyyyyy and give him a cuddle?

Generally, you want your dog going INTO the crate to be a rewarding experience and coming back out to be a neutral, boring experience. We made the same mistake. When we first got our dog, she would whine and be restless in the middle of the night (she has anxiety/hypervigilance problems, so every noise woke her up). We covered her crate, turned on a white noise machine and moved her into the next room (she would wake up whenever we moved) and then ignored the hell out of her. She stopped after a few weeks and started sleeping until we got her up. Months later, we moved to a new house and started a new tradition: when we let her out in the morning, we would encourage her to race into the bedroom and jump on the bed and wake up the other person! So much fun and excitement! So cute! Well, after a while, she started getting anxious to get out in the morning and get her huge reward of jumping on the bed and so started whining/barking before we were ready to get up.

It's okay to be excited with your dog in the morning, but try to separate it from the coming out of the crate part. Ignore your dog until you're ready, teach him to wait in the crate (even with the door open, look up crate games if you haven't already) until you say okay, and make it not a big deal when he come out and gets his lead. Then once you're out the door or it's been a few minutes, you can start playing/cuddling.

Tayter Swift
Nov 18, 2002

Pillbug
I stumbled my way into a 16-week old Shih Tzu last week. All in all he's a damned good dog and is learning fast (he immediately figured out the doggy door and potty tray on the patio and hasn't had an accident since I got them), with the exception of nipping and pant legs. The nipping I think I can handle -- he responds pretty well to me leaving the room when he hits skin so hopefully he'll figure it out in a week or so. Pant legs are another problem -- practically any time I'm walking he's attached to a pant leg, and I don't feel like walking out of the room is a great idea here as it just gives him something to chase until I close the door. I even experimented with spraying bitter apple on my sweats and he just gives no fucks. Any ideas?

a life less
Jul 12, 2009

We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.

Eegah posted:

I stumbled my way into a 16-week old Shih Tzu last week. All in all he's a damned good dog and is learning fast (he immediately figured out the doggy door and potty tray on the patio and hasn't had an accident since I got them), with the exception of nipping and pant legs. The nipping I think I can handle -- he responds pretty well to me leaving the room when he hits skin so hopefully he'll figure it out in a week or so. Pant legs are another problem -- practically any time I'm walking he's attached to a pant leg, and I don't feel like walking out of the room is a great idea here as it just gives him something to chase until I close the door. I even experimented with spraying bitter apple on my sweats and he just gives no fucks. Any ideas?

I would either have him trail a light leash indoors so you can grab it and affix it to a table leg, or set up tether stations where the leash is pre-fixed to the table and you attach a misbehaving puppy to it for a time out.

Redirecting him to a toy (maybe something similar, like a knotted up old sock, or a plush tug toy) instead of your pant legs should work too if you get him excited about the toy when your pant legs aren't in the equation. (If you just shoved something at him while you're walking across the room, pant legs dangling, he'll just ignore the new toy and keep trying for the legs.)

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


Update on Lola toileting when alone: left her for four hours today whilst I was out, with blankets on the floor and her crate in the usual pee spot. She peed on a blanket :saddowns:

E:
After I let her out (and she peed) I left her in the living room to go do chores. Came back 2 minutes later and she had crapped on the couch :toot:

Fraction fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 30, 2012

Tayter Swift
Nov 18, 2002

Pillbug

a life less posted:

I would either have him trail a light leash indoors so you can grab it and affix it to a table leg, or set up tether stations where the leash is pre-fixed to the table and you attach a misbehaving puppy to it for a time out.

Redirecting him to a toy (maybe something similar, like a knotted up old sock, or a plush tug toy) instead of your pant legs should work too if you get him excited about the toy when your pant legs aren't in the equation. (If you just shoved something at him while you're walking across the room, pant legs dangling, he'll just ignore the new toy and keep trying for the legs.)

I'll give the time out thing a shot, thanks. I've had trouble distracting him with toys. I should also perhaps work on teaching him Off.

Andohz
Aug 15, 2004

World's Strongest Smelly Hobo
So our 9 month old staffy has started barking at noises from the neighbours (we live in an apartment building). It started as a bark and then a few low volume coughy barks and now it's pretty much several barks in a row. I'm not really sure what to do about it or how we should react.

We usually call her over and tell her to lie down near us, telling her "no..." calmly and neutrally when she barks (which I'm not sure is helping or making it worse).

What I'm wondering is why is she starting this now and how do we react? I don't know if it's a ghost phase, if she's guarding us (she doesn't stop once we acknowledge her and she's not exactly a guarding breed), if she's bored, if she's scared or if she just wants attention.

Since we leave the radio on whenever she's home alone I've been thinking about training her to lie infront of the speaker whenever she barks at something since I don't want her barking all day when she's alone. I thought about exercising her more and trying to reward her after sounds, before she barks but afaik that's mostly dogs who are afraid of the noises which I'm not sure she is.

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MrFurious
Dec 11, 2003
THINKS HE IS BEST AT DOGS (is actually worst at dogs!!!)

Andohz posted:

So our 9 month old staffy has started barking at noises from the neighbours (we live in an apartment building). It started as a bark and then a few low volume coughy barks and now it's pretty much several barks in a row. I'm not really sure what to do about it or how we should react.

We usually call her over and tell her to lie down near us, telling her "no..." calmly and neutrally when she barks (which I'm not sure is helping or making it worse).

What I'm wondering is why is she starting this now and how do we react? I don't know if it's a ghost phase, if she's guarding us (she doesn't stop once we acknowledge her and she's not exactly a guarding breed), if she's bored, if she's scared or if she just wants attention.

Since we leave the radio on whenever she's home alone I've been thinking about training her to lie infront of the speaker whenever she barks at something since I don't want her barking all day when she's alone. I thought about exercising her more and trying to reward her after sounds, before she barks but afaik that's mostly dogs who are afraid of the noises which I'm not sure she is.

Are you familiar with the Premack Principle? If this is not familiar to you, check the training thread or Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed book. This is a concept that takes a while to gel in your brain, but actually makes a great deal of sense. I'm not entirely certain that this is appropriate to try here, though, only because the dog will go over threshold with the neighbors when you're not home, but I still think it's worth a shot.

Start with your partner/roommate/whatever in another room. Lie down near the dog, have some treats and the clicker at the ready (I assume you guys have done at least some clicker training). Figure out where the dogs threshold is by having your roommate bang on the wall (or whatever) in your own apartment. Make sure you work UNDER that threshold. Barking gets no treats and no clicks. The whole basis of Premack is that acknowledging (but not wigging out over) the distraction earns a reward. As this idea takes hold, it becomes a game and the distracting object loses value as a distraction.

When your helper makes noise and the dog perks up but doesn't actually bark, click and treat. Make sure that you are clicking immediately as he orients or alerts on the noise, the timing is very important. Early on, you may have to stuff treats into his mouth until he gets it. You want to work to the point that as soon as he hears the click, he orients back to you for the food. Do this several times, and if it's working, you should see response times get shorter.

If you think you're there at the given threshold level, you can test it by making the noise, then waiting to see if he orients back to you on his own. If he does, you're ready to raise the volume one notch.

Try this and see where you get.

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