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Hey Guys! Dan from Blue Bottle Games here. Blooshoo emailed me about this thread, so thanks to him for the heads-up! And thanks to Xik for the thread! This is a really good summary of the game, especially with the list of gotchas and screengrabs to help explain to new users. The bits mentioned under "Player Tips" are some of the most frequently asked questions, so excellent work! Also, it seems like most of the questions folks have here have been aptly answered by other posters, so I'll try not to be redundant. Re: the clunky interface, sorry! I agree it has a *long* way to go before it's smooth-sailing in that dept. It's already been though quite a few iterations, but even so, people are noticing issues that I never thought of (or even my testers). So hang in there, more improvements are on the way! No fire without a lighter, Achmed. At least, not yet! It's something that's been on my list a while, actually, just lower on the priorities. @Jedrick: that multi-death is my #1 mystery bug. I can't repro it reliably in order to capture it in the debugger. Frustrating! @Wildtortilla, I think we sorted out your account woes over email, but if not, email me again and we'll see what we can do! Re: randomization, there is some. The map always has the same quest locations and coastline, but quite a bit of the game is randomized (hex types, loot, creatures, weather, etc.). The quests are deterministic, but the scavenge results are chance-based. And many of the conditions that progressively worsen have chances of worsening vs. not between stages. So, I guess it's not too far from a roguelike, depending on how you read it. Healing takes a *long* time, though one doesn't have to sit still to do so. The Rest+Heal button works as Megaflare says: it just fast-forwards the turns until either you heal a wound, or a condition/monster appears. Also, getting wounded again resets the healing timer (I know, I know, I'm a killer DM. Guilty as charged!) And Prokhor, that post had me laughing so hard I was shaking. FYI, the tracking skill may be useful to you. It'll not only reveal more of the enemies' tracks, but it also helps conceal yours, making it harder for them to track you once you're out of sight. And in the beta, the hiding skill enables sneak mode, which helps prevent them from bee-lining it to you if they have line of sight. Oh, and no matter what, all creatures have a slight chance of screwing up tracking/following, so there's a chance to escape for even non-tracker builds. Just beware that certain conditions (like diarrhea and severe wounds) pretty much kill any chance of you hiding your tracks. Hard to cover the smell! Glad you guys found the game, and glad I found you! Hope you enjoy, and thanks for all the awesome feedback!
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Mar 16, 2012 23:14
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Hello again! Just figured I'd stop by one more time before signing off for the night. Glad I did, you guys have been busy! Re: newspapers rolling up: That's a good point. The newspapers are more of a local culture item, and not optimized for carrying. However, they are creeping their way into crafting recipes, so perhaps they should roll-up as you suggest. I'll note that in my list. And thanks Xik for the kind words! I hope to keep an open channel with players, as I think they have some really good ideas. The only problem is keeping pace with the ideas! @Orgone and Fintilgin, that's a really good point. I had a task earmarked to give creatures morale so they might run if injured, but it might be better to expand it into more behaviors. I'm not sure how the system will eventually look, but I've got it on my list now! @Nation, actually pockets were on the original spec too. I just started running out of space in the UI. It's on the list as well! About lighters, they *should* behave like other containers. So dropping a stack into the lighter's container area should work, as well as dropping the fluid directly onto the lighter while it's in a pack/bag. Alternately, using the take/drop cursor will try to find the first valid container opposite it's current position (e.g. ground->body, or body->ground). Oh, and while trading isn't a big thing in NEO Scavenger yet, there is one place where you can trade items for cash. You have to get there first, but it can be a handy place to buy much needed items. And it restocks nightly!
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Mar 17, 2012 03:08
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More great questions and comments! I'll do my best to answer those that are not yet addressed by others. @Red Mundus and Can-O-Raid, you're not the only ones to call out the hydration and other balance issues. I'll probably need to revisit traits and abilities now that there is more player data to draw from. Re: Armageddon Empires, I really enjoyed playing that one. It struck me as a nice blend of Magic: The Gathering style deck building and hex-based strategy wargame, all in a post apocalyptic setting. Been meaning to reinstall it on a couple occasions, but can't seem to find my registration key! @blurry!, indeed! The UI definitely needs de-clunking. As for hiding, the demo only allows for getting out of line-of-sight. Having tracking will make it such that they don't see your tracks as well to follow you. The beta allows the player to sneak if they have the Hiding skill, which reduces the chances an enemy will close on the player based on line-of-sight, but tracking/footprints are still a consideration. It's a simplified system for now, but others have also asked about hiding out in forests and buildings, so it's something I've got on the list. And combat is an early draft too. Lots of room for changes/growth in that system. @Xik, I agree that the game is more interesting if abilities actually differ and change the way one plays the game. I think there's a lot of that going on, which I'm happy to see, and I'd prefer to make the game more versatile rather than less. Perhaps this means certain abilities cost more than others to obtain, or maybe I need to add mechanics/encounters that reward the less popular abilities. This will be a very difficult balance to maintain, but I hope to maintain it. @Firehippo, I actually considered Kickstarter at one point, but they don't allow projects based outside the US yet. Doh! @beef express, that's a really good idea! It may be a while before I can get around to it, but sneak penalties for vehicles is on my list! @Naar, I missed that one (perpetual injury bug in dogman/cryo confirm). Thanks! @Julius Milkwhite, send me an email using the address here: http://bluebottlegames.com/main/node/20 and include your username. Many of the email issues I've fixed thusfar have been a typo in the address. But if there is a known email issue apart from that, you're right, I should make that top priority! @bromplicated, sounds like you found the workaround, and Xik helped you the rest of the way (thanks Xik!). That UI bug is annoying, but I haven't yet figured out the cause. I'd say that bug, plus the "everything death" are the two top bugs to squash, I just can't reproduce them reliably enough to debug. Hang in there! Thanks again everyone, this is great feedback!
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Mar 18, 2012 23:46
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Wow, there's been a lot of chatter here in the past week! It appears Xik is doing an awesome job keeping everyone up-to-date, and answering questions. SA's forum may be the most up-to-date site on NEO Scavenger developments besides BBG! Also, now I know who Katy Perry is  Even I learned something!I don't think I'll be able to address every point that was brought up, but I wanted to at least address the point of permadeath. I've always felt save games were a big deal, and I was admittedly afraid of implementing them in a detrimental way. Many of the concerns brought up here echo my own. In an ideal world, I want NEO Scavenger to be challenging, exciting, and rewarding. I want cleverness to be rewarded, and carelessness to be punished. I also want folks to be able to play the game on their own time, at their own pace (e.g. avoid having to commit 3 hours to a raid like in WoW, or bend to time-management mechanics like FarmVille). I didn't want the game to pressure people into playing it, so they could sit back and enjoy the delicacy of deep, thoughtful rpg/strategy gameplay. One reason I think many have argued for savegames, apart from life schedule convenience, is due to another concern brought up here: non-deterministic death. It is very easy to die in NEO Scavenger, and often it is beyond the control of the player (I'm looking at you, combat system). Right now, NEO Scavenger is fairly light on plot, so it's not a huge loss to die before seeing the final content (especially, as pointed out, since one can speed-play their way to see it in a short time), but down the line, when more character growth and plot are introduced, it'd be a real bummer to lose a character to a "yes/no combat death" dice roll. That said, there is a lot of fun to be had in a permastate/permadeath style game, where one lives with consequences of decisions. Did you piss off Hatter? Well tough, he won't see you anymore. Become a criminal in DMC? No more easy access to the city. Desperately eat poisoned food while starving? Better make a bee-line for medical facilities. It would lend more weight to decisions, and make for interesting problem solving when dealing with the consequences. What does this mean for NEO Scavenger's design? Well, I think it's compatible with permadeath. Ultimately, if folks are struggling to survive in NEO Scavenger, I think it's better if I give them more tools and options to survive, rather than a save/load safety net. E.g. more interactive combat, more specific wounds and wound-dressing techniques, additional ways to find resources, at some player cost such as fatigue, skill slots, or burdensome equipment. Save/load is there for life convenience, not in-game convenience. I like the idea of save-erasure upon death, and quitting being synonymous with saving. It's a nice middle ground that seems to be the best fit for the goals mentioned above. Players can still save+quit whenever they need to, and return to playing later. However, if the player dies, they must start anew. They get life convenience, but meaningful in-game decision-making. I've got a working version of these changes going in my debugger as we speak, and I'll try uploading it tonight. Thanks for the candid discussion, and challenging me to really examine the feature. This "feels right" to me, and accentuates one of NEO Scavenger's more unique and endearing qualities: rewarding challenge. And as a bonus, I think discussions on game difficulty will steer back towards making in-game tools to deal with problems, since save/load isn't a valid catch-all solution. Thanks again!
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Mar 27, 2012 22:53
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@not a dinosaur: I agree that those fields seem redundant. Unfortunately, the phone/address fields are a requirement of the payment processor (FastSpring/PayPal) since I am a new developer account. However, I've heard rumors that once a developer has established themselves, they can request to have those fields removed from the PayPal order flow. The aforementioned link also points to a potential new payment feature which only requires username/password to verify PayPal credentials. I've sent a support ticket into FastSpring to see if either of the above can be done for Blue Bottle Games, since we've now been live over a month, and have had no issues yet. Hopefully, they'll grant the request. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Apr 8, 2012 23:39
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Ok, so FastSpring was able to help me tweak the order flow after all. The process has a few extra steps now (e.g. product detail->shopping cart->payment info), but it'll allow users to choose the PayPal payment option and bypass phone and address info. Using PayPal, it actually defers to paypal.com, where the user logs in to confirm the purchase, before returning to the BBG/FastSpring order page. The CC option still requires the address, but the phone is now omitted. Hopefully, this should make new customers feel a bit more comfortable with the order process. Thanks again for the tip! Regarding goals inside vs. outside the city, do you mean further plot encounters? If so, I do plan to add some of each, though I'm not sure of the ratio yet. Playing inside the city would have a distinctively different feel from survival in the wilderness, so my first instinct is to keep inner-city adventuring limited to a few encounters, and perhaps expand on urban adventuring in a future game. However, a number of players have expressed more than a little interest in "what lies inside the DMC walls," and I don't want them to feel jipped if the city plays a minor role. It's a tough call, but for now, my gut feeling is that NEO Scavenger plot should focus on locations requiring wilderness survival, with limited activity in the DMC. As for timeline, future plot content is voted just below player camp and higher resolution/font size, so it should be coming up soon. The way things go, probably on the order of a few weeks out before I start work on it. Assuming, of course, feature voting priorities don't suddenly shift. Lastly, there are a few more things I could try to make camping more fun/meaningful, and I think camp deserves at least a little more work before moving on to other features. One intriguing idea came from a user at BBG, plugger, regarding night time play mechanics. I won't paraphrase here, since he does a good job of illustrating in his post, but it has me thinking that it could make camp a more important consideration. Extreme weather isn't out of the question either. If you're really lucky, you'll already see snow in the game (sometimes the random September weather dips below freezing during precipitation). Similarly, if the player survived long enough (e.g. months in-game) they'd see the climate transition into winter and later summer. I actually sampled some data from NOAA to model the in-game climate, so it should reflect realistic behavior over time. The link above is from a time when the game also had wind and cloud-cover, though I backed-out those changes since it was often confusing for the player. I may add them back someday, though. And it's funny you mention the brain-wiping blast waves, I had a dream last night where some still-running facility was sending out random EM-like waves that caused cumulative effects in humans, much like rad dosages. I filed the idea in my list for reference later
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Apr 11, 2012 01:22
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Hey Guys! I wanted to echo the praise for Xik's diligent updates. This thread is probably the most consistently active discussion on NEO Scavenger outside of the BBG forums, and I check back regularly to see what folks are saying. So kudos, Xik! @tokyosexwale - My pleasure! I'm all for making the purchasing process as painless and transparent as possible. I'm hoping that in the future, especially when there is a stable build to download, I can expand into some more traditional storefronts (e.g. Desura, Steam) so people can choose the method that suits them most. Regarding the demo vs. beta, Xik pretty much nailed it. The plot content is about the same right now, whereas the beta's features have evolved quite a bit from the demo (e.g. save/load, richer day/night gameplay, camps, AI behaviors, improved UI, lots of bug fixes). More plot is currently a front-runner on the voting page, just after larger resolution/fonts, so that expansion is on the way. Surprisingly, combat is a few ranks below that, despite it's relative primitiveness and the frequent frustrations people voice. Though, I'm not exactly sure how to improve it yet, so maybe that's okay. Back to the original point, though, thanks for the active discussion and thoughtful feedback. It's been very helpful!
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Apr 24, 2012 16:13
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@Xik - yeah, I definitely don't want there to be a dominant strategy either. Having an unattractive fall-back solution is probably necessary to avoid a brick wall, given the range of build options and loadouts. And ideally, there will be other approaches for certain builds. I doubt I'll be able to find plausible solutions for every skill, but at least a range of options will give some choice. @beef express - I think the way I've built the encounter system will support what you describe. The tricky part will be creating the content for it. I probably don't have the resources to make a large number of optional encounters. I can probably manage a few (I'd like to), but most encounters will have to be squeezed pretty hard for re-use. Normally, I look to pen & paper games to see how it should work, since that's sort of what I'm trying to recreate. In a typical paper RPG campaign, the GM has some finale in mind, and the players get creative trying to solve it. The GM usually has at least one solution in mind (if for no other reason than to ensure it can be solved at all), and players can use that with predictable results. However, player creativity can often lead to unpredictable outcomes, and this isn't possible in a scripted crpg. Someone has to write the encounter to anticipate an option for a player to see it. Some games have emergent strategies, which is cool, but the encounter system that I've designed requires me to prescribe outcomes for each input. I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, so I'm not sure I have an answer yet. This is good feedback, though. It's got me thinking about alternatives. And it's good to hear that there's consensus so far on the topic of letting players choose to mess up! Also, good points earlier about combat, and it's relative voting priority. I may have to pull an executive decision and fix it sooner than its time. Even as I do plot stuff, combat inevitably comes up in some situations, so I may not be able to avoid it for long. Handling it via encounter-like screens seems to be the prevailing opinion, and would offer the greatest player latitude. The trouble is finding a way to offer that latitude without having to write every permutation of creature/environment/attack-type/range/time-of-day/surprise/morale/etc. It seems like it should really be a system and not a hand-written thing. The scavenging system was an extension of the encounter system, such that inputs changed the probabilities of an outcome, rather than deterministically changing the outcome. Perhaps combat could be similar? It'd probably require many more stats than the 3 scavenge ones, but might operate on similar principles. It'd also allow for dialogue to transition into combat, and possibly back again. Something for me to think about, anyway. As always, thanks for the feedback!
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May 11, 2012 21:21
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Hey Guys! I'm glad to hear the combat sounds good so far. Hopefully, I can get something stable and playable together soon, and let everyone into the sandbox! @Thompsons - Do you mean clicking "Use" on a recipe scrap and have it work like clicking the quick recipe buttons? If so, that sounds like a great idea, and I'm not sure how I didn't think of that before. I wonder if I could replace the quick buttons entirely? Recipe scraps are much smaller, so I could fit more scraps on-screen than the buttons. The down side is scraps all look the same. Hmm. Even so, clicking a scrap makes a lot of sense. Thanks! @PROTOSTORM!!! - Lol, I'll have to add a botany move in there, just because @Myoclonic Jerk - Actually, the sleep button moved to the camp screen. It was moved partially to prevent mis-clicks when in main map mode (i.e. sleep is a dangerous thing to mis-click when trying to end turn/scavenge), and partially to bring attention to the camp stats before sleeping. However, I wonder if I should move a copy of the button back to the main map screen, and when the user clicks it, it goes to camp, where the sleep button actually sleeps? As always, thanks to Xik for keeping the torch alive here. This thread has long been a good sounding board for game updates, and it's much appreciated!
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Jun 29, 2012 15:26
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Hey Guys! Sorry about the access/order issues this morning. I forgot that my ISP was doing maintenance overnight, which broke a few forms on the site. Great timing, eh? Anyway, it appears to be working again, and I've manually fixed both Angry Diplomat's and Geokinesis's orders. Thanks for your patience! @Thompsons - I'll have to look into rest+heal. The new turn order might've messed up the way that works. Also, body armor is definitely on my wishlist. Steel-belted radial tires seem like a great (and abundant) material for banded/scale mail armor. I hadn't thought of phonebooks and rebar though! @Aries - The site should be up now. Feel free to email me if that's still not the case for you. Re: the combat debate - I think both sides of the debate have merit. On one hand, I want combat to be a messy affair, and something not taken lightly. Definitely not something one "grinds" in the traditional CRPG sense. On the other hand, I want players who spec for combat to be rewarded for that choice. I think the right balance may come from the forthcoming wound update. If bleeding, fractures, and infection are possible, combat is more scary. Gauging combat becomes less of "who can absorb more damage" and more about tactically avoiding damage, or mitigating the wounds you couldn't avoid. Players who spec for combat (e.g. melee, tough, strong, ranged, etc.) should have more latitude in battle. Their skill should mean they are more likely to hurt without being hurt. However, their lack of other skills should be a penalty outside of battle (plot encounters, non-combat scavenging/crafting). And if wounds are done right, their lack of healing options might be a drawback. A tricky balance to strike, but that's the goal. Regarding ranged being overpowered, that may have improved this build. I'm waiting to see what folks say. Ammo frequency has been reduced, plus attacks can now miss. (ranged combat factors in distance, movement, cover, etc.) Those changes should make ranged combat less of a sure thing, and drive up ammo preciousness. In theory anyway Finally, this is a new system, so it's always possible I've screwed the balance up. Cameron has already pointed out that the moves should probably be a bit more explanatory (e.g. why choose "desperate retreat" over "retreat"?) I'll see if I can make the moves clearer today. So if any other things seem way out of whack, let me know!
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Jul 12, 2012 18:08
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Looks like I introduced a bug in the turn order. I just uploaded a new copy which should hopefully fix that issue. You'll know if you have the new copy if the sleep and rest+heal buttons are now next to each other in the top right of the screen. Clicking either of them while on the main map takes you to camp now, where clicking on either of them again activates them. While sleeping, you cannot wake up until either rested or disturbed. However, while resting, clicking the rest button again stops the resting. Since that's a pretty big bug fix, I figured I'd upload it now rather than wait until this evening Let me know if it works!
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Jul 12, 2012 19:40
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Hey Guys, Thanks for the support so far! Looks like Greenlight may require a pretty monumental number of votes to get to 100%, so it could be a while. And as you point out, NEO Scavenger could still use quite a bit of work before it's really ready for prime time. @Doctor Schnabel - I think you're right about the water tiles. I'm thinking maybe there need to be two cases: obvious sources of water that show in the tile, and others that are hidden. I've made a note! As for tech skills, I do intend to make them equally useful in the future. Worst case, I'd remove them if I couldn't make them useful. But my preference, budget permitting, is to make them worth taking for opportunities both in the DMC and in other locations. I still want the DMC to be a memorable place, and an event players enjoy. I'm a huge fan of mega cities in sci-fi settings, so having one of my own to tell stories in is important. @The Cheshire Cat - Random skill loadout is on my list for future reference. Like many things on my list, it just got buried in other to-do things. I still think it's worth doing, though! @Tin Tim - Yeah, a manual will definitely be needed eventually. I've been hesitant to put a lot of time into one yet, since I tend to fix and add features frequently, and it would go out of date quickly. You're right about the UI too. Most seem to agree that it has more rough edges than most features, the medical item access being a big example. It's starting to look like solving it might involve a little bit of resolution increase, crafting overhaul, and using those changes to rearrange UI elements. Might take a while to plan and develop, but maybe it can be improved. The clicking may be harder to solve, as getting item from location A to B requires either a semi-psychic algorithm or lots of clicking. Hotkeys (e.g. 1,2,3,4,q,e,c,v...) help a little right now, but maybe modifiers are needed after all. Or right-clicking. And probably some way of moving entire containers' contents. But back to your point, yes, probably more iteration and polish. Anyway, just wanted to pop by and express my gratitude for your continued support, feedback, and good will! Thanks!
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Sep 4, 2012 02:29
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Hey Guys! I've been keeping up with the thread, but it's been a while since I posted, so I figured I'd chime in. First of all, big thanks to Xik for keeping this thread up-to-date! And no worries about sounding like you're speaking for me. You're doing as good a job explaining myself as I could ever do Re: the choices in resolution, the links Xik and Orthogonalus cite go into details on the decision, but it's pretty much summed up as Orthogonalus says: pixel art really only looks good at whole number zoom levels. So 2x and 3x the normal size are the only choices that don't get ugly aliasing. I also put together a 1360x768 as a sort of middle ground between 800 and 1600, since that was the smallest size I could double artwork at, and it was a common monitor manufacturer choice. This link, in particular, goes into detail on my decision of 1360 over 1280: http://bluebottlegames.com/main/node/1365 All of the prescribed resolutions will letterbox by default, but you can also choose the "Stretch" option if you don't mind the jaggies. There's a filter, too. But the prettiest (imo) options are whole zoom levels with no stretching nor filtering. Re: moving away from Flash, I like the idea, but I'm not sure I can pull it off in this version. Porting it to another platform pretty much means a total rewrite of the game, including finding new kludges for all the Flash-specific kludges I used. That said, I've started running into deal-breakers with Flash, so I've been eyeing up new tech for future projects. Haxe NME is probably my next choice, since it deploys to pretty much everything from PCs to Tamagotchis*. (* doesn't actually deploy to Tamagotchis) Regarding the mouse seeming choppy in Flash, is that still the case? I switched to hardware cursors a while back, and I thought that helped. Dragging items is still choppy, since the game only moves the item each frame, but the cursor itself should be a windows mouse cursor, so no lag. (In theory) Re: HoMM hex battles, I actually picked up HoMM3 from GoG over Xmas due to that comment, just so I could see what you meant I think you're right that it opens up a lot of tactical maneuvering, but it sacrifices a bit of detail per-unit. Ideally, there would be a way to communicate things like fallen/bleeding/stunned/current armament/etc. per unit on the field, and still have room for the other UI (message log, stat bars, inventory buttons).I think there's a way to do it, using more detailed sprites, animations, and things like that. Those are a pretty big jump in art budget (either time or money) though. Still, I see what you mean. If there's room in the schedule for another battle overhaul, I've now got these suggestions in mind! Re: more guns and skill love, nothing yet. There are a few new encounters which accept underutilized skills as action choices, but there is still balancing needed. I think whichever feature I tackle next (more plot or crafting/more items) will probably help in this regard. Re: not wanting to play the game as it's being developed, for fear of burning out, I totally get it. I never sat down to play through DA:O for that reason. Re: when will NEO Scavenger be done? I keep saying "in three months," but I was wrong the last three times I did so I feel like I'm approaching a point where the features are nearly done, though, which is a new milestone. Plot is one of the last outstanding "must haves." There's also crafting. A crafting overhaul isn't strictly necessary to complete the game at this point. However, it would make new recipes much easier to manage/build, which in turn, makes new items and skill-uses easier to develop. And that, in turn, affects plot encounters since it means more tools would be available to players. As such, I'm leaning towards a crafting overhaul plus a batch of new items and recipes first, and then adding more plot which takes advantage. The jury's still out on that, though. Whew! That was a bit longer than planned. Hopefully, there was some useful info in there! And thanks again for all the feedback and support!
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Feb 23, 2013 18:28
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Galaga Galaxian posted:A new gun!? Um, hm, well...that's an item in the game, but not yet available. Whoops! 
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Feb 23, 2013 19:53
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@Zip, been quieter in here as new builds are slower to come out these past few iterations. Figured I'd chime in The only place to trade right now is the junk market just outside the DMC ("The Glow"). Trading is pretty crude, basically getting money for things dropped, and losing money for things picked up on the junk market hex. There are also a couple encounters where items are used to barter, and others where money is required to proceed (e.g. health clinic, diner, both at the DMC). Hope this helps!
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Jul 9, 2013 14:46
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@Angry Diplomat, are you saying it's too easy to make money? Hmm @Thompsons, yeah, that's a bug I need to sort out. The game identifies items when a skilled player rolls their mouse over them. But some weird situations occur with items in containers, and I might need more complex rules. @Xik, indeed, a beta of a beta! The "t" build is mainly satisfying my anxiety about not having new stuff for players to try in a while, without removing the old build in case the "t" build blows up. And yes, feedback is welcomed! @Tarquinn, whenever I choose an ETA, I end up being wrong. However, most of the major, planned features are developed now (e.g. bigger resolution and fonts, improved crafting system). What remains are mostly content items (e.g. plot, items, creatures, recipes) and system tweaks (e.g. non-hostile AI creatures). With that in mind, I'm aiming to wrap things up by the end of the year. Thanks guys!
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Jul 10, 2013 15:16
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Re: enthusiastic surrenders, I'll have to check that out. A lot of folks are saying it's overused by AI and/or used illogically after a 15-range charge. Re: people meat salesman, that's an interesting outcome I hadn't considered. People meat was meant to be an "undocumented feature" for people to discover when applying a knife to a humanoid corpse, not a lucrative and easy career I like the idea of there being social consequences to it, though I'm not sure if it can be done without making a lot of parallel versions of existing meat items, conditions, recipes, etc. It's on my radar, though.Re: headbutt range with spears, that's definitely a bug! Re: trapping being OP, that might be the case now. I'll keep watching this, and may have to split or juggle skill stuff to rebalance. @Thompsons, the dropping of items when sleeping is an accidental side-effect of some recent changes. However, I kinda like it. Sneaking up on a critter means it'll wake unarmed, while alerting it beyond melee range gives it a chance to gear-up. And the forest shack definitely got a bit of nerfing. It's still has a bit more to offer than other places, so when it's good, it's great. But the chances are lower now. @Zip, glad to hear it's a hit with your friends! As Cheshire says, more content is the plan. Definitely more encounters and items, likely more creatures, and probably an unpredictable scattershot of other stuff. Thanks for all the detailed and useful feedback, guys. There are some great points and catches here! BlueBottleGames fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 02:25
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Another player on the forums pointed out that enemies can scoop up the dropped items before battle starts, even from great range, which somewhat ruins the immersion. I may have to change how that works after all. Re: enfield horrors, I'm actually working on a corpse for them as well. I meant to right after the humanoid one, but I must've got distracted
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Jul 11, 2013 15:29
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@Thompsons, I do have plans for more food items, though I may do some more raw ingredients before food recipes. E.g. finding apples, pet food, canned cheese, etc. Combining food items may be more for morale and taste than anything else, so more of a role-playing/atmospheric thing. (E.g. ketchup plus potatoes may taste better, but in practice no different than eating the two serially) I still like the idea, though, time permitting! Re: archery, the greenwood bow is the only one that can be made via crafting. Crude arrows can be made too, though I stupidly messed up the recipe, so they won't work until next build. The compound bow can be upgraded with a strap for shoulder storage, while (iirc) the greenwood can be stowed there by default (just slip string over shoulder). Still hammering out some kinks right now. That last content dump was rife with weird bugs
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Jul 12, 2013 21:40
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Re: purifying water, there's a recipe for 2x and 3x drops at a time. It's meant to be used with the saucepan, though a bug causes the tin can to work in this case too. Also, I haven't tested it yet, but in 0.972t (the experimental download build beneath the normal download button links on bluebottlegames.com) the recent changes to crafting should make it possible to load up the inputs with as much water as one wants, and spam the "Confirm" button to repeat the same recipe. The update that keeps ingredients in place after crafting was supposed to help a bit with this. Re: hacking and iSlabs, there are a few uses for both hacking and iSlabs, but they're mostly encounter-based. They still need more love. Re: NEO Scavenger on tablets, Xik pretty much has it. Apple and Flash don't play well together, and Adobe gave up on Flash for Android. Adobe AIR is supposed to be a solution here, but most who've tried it agree the performance is unacceptable. That said, I *do* want to get NEO Scavenger onto tablets some day. I think it'd be a great fit for curling up on the couch and playing a slow-paced, strategic game on a touchscreen. Haxe may be the way to go, here, and I've dog-eared it for further investigation once NEO Scavenger PC is finished.
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Jul 14, 2013 18:42
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@Zip, thanks! Xik was actually the one who sold me on the idea, and I'm glad I followed his advice! @Stelas, yeah, it looks like I broke the HVAC/panel options in v0.971. 0.972t seems to be working, and I'm planning on updating the both beta and demo with those fixes soon. Thanks for the heads-up!
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Jul 15, 2013 17:27
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@Xik, "it is pointless to resist..." @ekuNNN, it turns out I'm partially wrong with my "spam the confirm button" idea. The unused ingredients stay in place, but the used ones (e.g. fire, container) move. And the confirm button disappears until the yield box is cleared. So it's not as smooth as I pictured it. This issue (tedious repeat crafting) is one which several folks have asked about, so it warrants some more thought.
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Jul 16, 2013 15:13
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Thanks LotsBread. There's definitely some PKD love in the game, though I'm admittedly a fairly uneducated PKD fan (I've probably read more *about* PKD's works than actually reading them). More encounters are on the way, and I hope to strike a healthy balance between plausibility and sci-fi/supernatural. We may see some more spiritual encounters. I think skinwalkers are more of a Navajo belief (American southwest), and are mentioned in headlines as a way to alert the player that stuff like that is going on "out there." The lakes region definitely has some cryptids and spiritualisms of its own, though. (e.g. dogmen, as you point out) And I deliberately mentioned asteroid mining in the headlines because I want players to know NEO Scavenger takes place at a time when there is/was a more established economy in space. And so far, I've been doing all the illustrations myself. In fact, just about everything, from code to writing, art, and design. I had some excellent help from Cameron on design and plot, and Josh has provided an enchanting soundtrack. However, I tend to hoard all the fun for myself where I can.
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Jul 17, 2013 15:17
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Re: combat, assuming there isn't a bug, it sounds like it's more a matter of strategy than character build. The way the system is setup, skills and equipment don't necessarily determine battle success, they have more impact on the duration of the encounter. And there isn't any fudging of numbers for players vs. AI, so I don't think it's anything systemic. In a one-on-one fight, the timing of moves is probably what determines the outcome. An attack on a fallen target is going to be more severe than a standing one, so if the AI is tackling you a lot, this could be part of it. Also, the AI tends to use parry and dodge when things are going sour, which is significant. Parry and dodge are almost all one needs to win a one-on-one battle, if used advantageously. Block incoming attacks until the enemy trips up, becomes vulnerable, or is recovering, and you basically get a free attack. Better yet, parry/dodge a tackle, and you have a prone target ripe for a beating. Special moves are also worth exploring. Head-butt and trip are effective on their own, but can also open the opponent up for a follow-up attack. Tackling is a risk, but also a major advantage if successful. Kicking is almost always worth it, unless you're worried about being pulled down. And both lure and throw debris can be worth the gamble. Oh, and tough/strong have little bearing on ability to land a hit. They're more about dealing/absorbing damage. Melee will make one more likely to hit, and it's not displayed on opponents. Of course, all that falls apart when it's a group vs. one. Better to run in that case
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Jul 17, 2013 17:28
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The combat is designed to be simultaneous, so both combatants get their moves executed each turn. That said, moves have an execution priority, so some will happen before others. Parry and dodge are good examples, as their defensive effects can cause an attack to miss later in the execution order, while it might've hit otherwise. Most offensive moves have about the same execution order, so a tackle isn't meant to stop an impending attack. Rather, the tackle/head-butt/trip is setting up the next turn. However, it's possible that Lure is flawed in that it doesn't offer appropriate reward for the risk. The "flurry" move was a lot like that at one time: it automatically caused the attacker to lose their next turn for up to two hits, but the target was free to attack next turn. It was only after adding a "recover" to the target and extra attack that it became more worth the risk. It's also possible that I need to look into execution order and penalties a bit more. I think death and unconsciousness are the only two effects that prevent a move from executing. Maybe I need to consider fallen, stunned, or other effects.
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Jul 17, 2013 19:57
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First of all, I apologize for the battle UI. It's hardly ideal, and really falls apart in multi-opponent combat. It's serviceable in one-on-one combat, but even then, clunky. I'm not sure I'll have time to properly redo it, but I'm willing to hear ideas. And if there are easy changes with big impacts, I may be able to squeeze those in sooner. That said, it *should* give you a rough idea of your and your target's health. Any condition which is realistically visible will be listed under each combatant. So bleeding and stunned show up, but internal bleeding doesn't. The "conditions" screen is where you would go to get a more detailed report on your own health. This should list anything you know about your wounds on the right side, including the medic-only bars Danaru and Ignatius mention. The wounds themselves are also displayed on the silhouette, with blood coming out where applicable, and lightning bolts fading in with more pain. If you're at melee range, though, that screen is inaccessible. There isn't really time to examine oneself and apply bandages while wrestling for one's life. In that case, the best you can do is rely on the health meter at the bottom of the stats UI along the left side of the screen. This is visible at all times, and always shows the most critical of your three health stats: pain, blood loss, and infection. E.g. if your pain and infection are green, but blood is red, it'll show red. Basically, it's a high-level meter to help one decide when to run. In theory, I'd expect that bar to be red from blood loss if you were that close to bleeding to death. I suppose it's possible you were bleeding from everywhere, and could've been green on one turn but drained the next. But if that were the case, I'd at least expect the pain to be pretty bad from all those wounds. So I agree. It sounds fishy. Were you by any chance on some hydrocodone during the battle? Maybe your pain meter was misleading from painkillers?
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Jul 18, 2013 02:40
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There's actually a bug which might be at the root of this issue. Scavenging seems to cause the battle UI to misreport the number of enemies on the first round. It always shows one, even if more are there. Subsequent turns show the left and right selector arrows, though. I'm going to look into this now, as I'm sure it messes a lot of folks up. And yes, that ash condition % is causing issues. I have a fix upcoming that should make ash always be 100%, bypassing this problem. It should also apply to things like water, so when the quick recipe buttons are prioritizing ingredients, there isn't a 2% pure water being used before a 100% dirty water. Thanks for the heads-up! Edit: Oh, and to whoever gave me the Blue Bottle Games avatar, thanks!
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Jul 19, 2013 17:45
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@Thompsons, my first thought was "oof, that might be a lot of work." I'd probably need to clone each item like on the crafting screen, and make sure the clones and real items are synchronized (basically, so I don't have to remove the real versions from their slots/containers to show them on the medical screen). And the multiple pages (like for ingredients on the crafting page) are a bit of work to setup. I like the idea, though. I can see the improvement it would make to usability. In theory, I suppose I could skip any object that wasn't a consumable or usable on a wound, so I might even be able to skip building a paged container on the left side of the screen. Then, we'd just see food, liquids, drugs, rags, splints, and medkits. I'll definitely make a note to self about that. If I see a way to do it without going dark for a week, I may have to try it
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Jul 20, 2013 01:56
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@NiknudStunod, I'm not planning any other types of characters in the near future. However, I like games that allow for modding. So if I can find a way to make NEO Scavenger moddable, that may be a way. @Tin Tim, thanks for your support! Every purchase helps me postpone sending out my resume again And if I were you, I'd scavenge your current hex, banging around making as much noise as possible. Maybe you'll get lucky and a raider will walk into the trap!
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Jul 20, 2013 18:48
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There are differences, though I don't think they would cause what you are describing. The main differences between the demo and beta/Yukon versions are available items, save games, music, story encounters, access to the full map (e.g. DMC), and recipes. The map randomization is the same, so the early game shouldn't be much different between the two. The number of creatures wandering, loot frequency, and other difficulties should be the same, though randomness will cause variation from game-to-game.
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Jul 21, 2013 02:11
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Re: bow recipe, that's a bug. The greenwood bow is meant to require wood, string, a blade, and ranged skill, but can be done without wood and consumes the botany skill instead. Should be fixed in 0.974. Re: saving recipes between sessions, that's an interesting idea. I can't think of a reason this would hurt the game (e.g. disrupt balance), and it seems like a usability win. I'll make a note of it for future reference. Re: night vision goggles usable without power, that should be addressed in 0.974, too. The crafting tab issue you mention is in all resolutions, and due to the OnMouseUp event firing before the crafting page loads, snagging whatever item is under the cursor. I have to figure out a way to make sure the mouse release doesn't register in that case. Re: groups of enemies being game ruiners, this might actually improve in 0.974. Currently, running away without Athletic is a losing game. The movement chances are lower against a group, causing the enemies to slowly gain on a fleeing target. However, 0.974 introduces an extra move chance on "Run Away" and "Sprint Away" moves. This should make it possible to just barely outrun a group and get away most times. Re: losing the special item, enemies that loot the player will only take the amulet some of the time. Usually, they shouldn't. And combined with the flee changes above, the "gently caress you ghost" should be a bit easier to escape in the future. However temporary that escape may be Re: berries and mushrooms stacking, they should each fire a discreet feeding condition when consumed. The effects may not be visible on the stat bars, but they're happening. The stat bars have a limited granularity. @Angry Diplomat and Tin Tim, currently, most of the random encounters are designed in such a way that any unskilled player can participate in 3-4 outcomes. Cameron and I wanted at least a few options available to anyone. I was tempted* to start adding skill-based choices to many of them, but I'd still be working on them now if I did. I may yet go back and add some in the future, but for now, they're mostly about illustrating the setting and tone in an interactive way.*like, really. Reading these comments is giving me an eye twitch. Angry Diplomat posted:ekuNNN posted: Nice. That about sums it up! One of my favorite encapsulations of NEO Scavenger was from MagSlug at the Groupees website:quote:It's like a Choose Your Own Adventure book combined with the early "explore the world" phase from a Civilization game combined with that one scene from They Live where Keith David and Rowdy Roddy Piper beat each other up in an alley.
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Jul 23, 2013 16:19
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Thanks for the update, Xik! Re: drinking dirty water, I actually use the same technique on my playtests, and I also haven't caught cholera yet. I haven't looked up whether that should technically work, but my gut feeling is that the antibiotics clear early cholera before it establishes itself. Re: killing an unconscious target, have you tried melee flurry? I don't think I've ever had to use that move more than once on an unconscious target to kill it. Re: pill bottle numbers, I've been wondering about how hard it'd be to add stack counters to the peek view on the pop up. Maybe I should look into that. Re: autosave, you aren't the first to ask. Though, some others have said they'd prefer to have control over saves. If the game continues to be that unstable, I may just have to do it. Re: campfire and ashes, that seems strange. I'll take a look! Re: quick recipes stop working periodically, that should be fixed in 0.974. Can cured meat spoil? Yes. It just takes longer than regular meat. Do creatures have a real life? As much as possible, yes. They are affected by all the same conditions that the player is, so they can freeze, starve, and perish from thirst. They sleep when they're tired (and will prefer day/night depending on nocturnalism). They also choose a home hex, and those that use items will bring loot back to it, creating a hoard. Finally, some species respect a leader/alpha, and will follow it around. Some players have dug through the game code to find the weapon stats (among other things), and I think they just used a text editor. I seem to remember a thread about it at bluebottlegames.com. @Justin Credible, in practice, yes, rivers and lakes tend to be safer to drink. There are actually two types of water in the game: clean and infected. However, they both look the same when unidentified. Boiling either of them produces purified water (clean water, identified). Drinking infected water results in a chance of contracting cholera. The river/lake tends to have a lower proportion of infected water than marshes. Finding water via botany in the forest tends to be safer, too. Toughness won't necessarily stop cholera from happening, but will help ride-out the symptoms a bit. Thanks for the feedback, and enjoy the new build!
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Jul 24, 2013 15:01
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Re: cured meat, I think the duration is being affected by the raw meat that's used to make it. Recipes with consumed ingredients will produce an output item with a condition no higher than the worst consumable. It makes sense for most recipes, but meat is sort of a special case. Fire, too. I fixed the issue with ashes causing this problem, but I may have to add a flag to some recipes to ignore that feature althogether. @Tin Tim, that electric charge bug sounds a bit fishy. The revolver Ignatius mentions too. I may have to check the quick recipes again and see what's up, as a lot of the bugs being mentioned here (and elsewhere) seem related to quick recipe item picking. Boiling water in non-saucepans is a bug, currently. The tin can was supposed to be just for 1x water, while the saucepan for up to 3x. The whiskey bottle was an accident, though I've heard some players say it breaks quickly when used like that. I may be ok with leaving it if that's the case, but the tin can needs to be fixed. Re: save games and CC cleaner, unfortunately, no fix for this yet. I'm tentatively looking into other technologies besides Flash, partly for this reason, but I'm reluctant to promise anything. Such a port could be way more work than I can manage Re: combat feedback, I agree the battle screen would benefit from less text parsing. Icons, animations, and other effects could really help. That'd be a bit of a project to do right, but I've got it on my reminder list. @Angry Diplomat, I'm actually thinking of doing some of those skills suggestions. I'm waiting until later to start resizing skills, traits, and their container sizes, since balance could change in the interim. As for the niche and overlaps, I'm waiting a bit longer before consolidating or removing any skills. I have a few ideas for how to make hacker and electrician more interesting, and some items which might make mechanic more fun. Depending on how those evolve, it might be ok to keep them. We'll see, though. @Justin Credible, yeah, the quick recipe parser is fairly dumb. It's pretty much a straight value comparison, and cheaper items get preferred first. The thing is, cheaper doesn't equal less valuable depending on the context. The ideal case might be to give each item a sorting priority, and just manually assign heuristic values. I'm not sure that those values are static, though. It might be that a sleeping bag as fuel is a poor choice if you're freezing, but the obvious one if you're already warm and clearing up that old, bulky sleeping bag in camp. Definitely some food for thought, here!
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Jul 26, 2013 01:08
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Hey Guys! Been plugging away at fixes and changes, and as usual, some really good input here. Re: saucepans, I finally re-tooled containers such that boiling 2x and 3x water/rags requires larger containers like the saucepan, instead of soup cans, bottles, etc. That should be available in the upcoming build. Re: crafting failing, I found a bug that was causing that type of behavior, particularly when the same item was identified as both a consumed and tool ingredient by the game. That should reduce the instability that creeps in over time, and will also be available in the next build. Crafted item durability should be equal to the lowest quality consumed item, so a spear with a 50% tip and 40% shaft would be 40%. Forest shacks will get a slight correction in the next build, to make them at least worth searching. Items in a hex are not safe, no matter where, except for the junk store. Any creature has a chance of seeing items in a hex (ground items automatically, camp items depending on camp visibility), and if they're the type to loot, they may walk off with stuff. The items should not disappear, though, they may get deposited in an AI campsite nearby. Re: bottles with colors that match liquids inside, I would totally love to have this. Totally not easy to setup, though Re: mechanic, hacking, and electrician being more useful, that's definitely on the short list! Re: early hypothermia, this is something that plagues a lot of people, and I need to mitigate it somehow. It's mainly an RNG issue (low temps in early game combined with poor loot and/or scavenge opportunities). I'm considering adding something to bail out players who are severely hypothermic in the first 24 hours, like stumbling across a sleeping bag. It'd mitigate the RNG freezing players to death early on, while leaving most other players unaffected. I may also alter the way creatures appear after scavenging. A lot of folks describe scavenging as a way of "creating creatures," which feels a bit too game-y. I might alter things so creatures are attracted to scavenging activity from afar, so they don't materialize out of nowhere. My first test was a bit empty and lonely feeling, so it'll need tweaking. Re: sling stones vs. pebbles, there will be a bit of balancing done here As for primitive missile weapons and kiting/ammo retrieval, an experimental system is going in next build: http://bluebottlegames.com/main/node/1856  Arrows and spears will soon stick into opponents, and those that miss are gone forever. Sling stones and pebbles are one-use, too. It's not as ideal as having the ability to track down lost arrows or stones afterward, but it's the best I could manage within the system's confines. It should improve the overpowered imbalance afforded by endless arrow factories I looked into doing bullets as well, but that had some issues. For one thing, bandaging would be blocked while shrapnel was in a wound (i.e. only one item per wound), which is unintuitive and unrealistic. On the other hand, it appears that bullet extraction is, in practice, fairly uncommon in modern medicine. So pretending we just leave them in-place is actually fairly realistic. Finally, if anyone is interested, I've posted a question on reddit which involves NEO Scavenger. There's more info here: http://bluebottlegames.com/main/node/1861 If you're up for a philisophical NEO Scavenger discussion, feel free to drop into the reddit thread! Thanks again!
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Aug 14, 2013 22:27
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Thanks guys! The announcement was quite a nice surprise when I opened my inbox this morning! Getting Greenlit wasn't a necessary milestone, but it definitely is a game-changer. And it's nice knowing I have a built-in marketing push at some date in the future (e.g. Steam launch)!
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Aug 29, 2013 00:21
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Lol, yeah. NO PRESSURE I'll definitely keep an eye out for opportune launch windows. It might be a case of choosing the lesser evil, but launching during Steam Holiday Sale is probably right out.
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Aug 29, 2013 16:11
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I've been telling everyone (including Valve!) that NEO Scavenger should be done by the end of 2013. At this point, I'm ramping down major feature development, and focusing instead on stability, balancing, UI, and the plot encounters. I'd be disappointed if I didn't get to sprinkle some new items in for variety, too (like the "Hiya Poopy!" children's backpack, or useless fashion footwear), but I honestly expect I'll be scrambling to finish even the story in the remaining few months. Between the plot hole-plugging, the hooking up of encounters, the illustrations, and the revising of draft text, I'll have my work cut out for me. It's a heck of a lot more game than I originally set out to make, but also a heck of a far cry from what I'd ideally want. My wishlist is the only thing that grows faster than the game Anyway, I'm shooting for "finished" in a few months, with the usual "I reserve the right to be completely wrong here" caveat.
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Sep 17, 2013 01:12
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Xik posted:It's been crazy following the development news of NEO. It's sort of unreal to see you post "that sounds like a cool idea" one day, and then a couple of days later it's "check out this screenshot/build of that idea I was talking about". I'm really hoping that when you do the release (Steam in particular) the game gets a massive boost in popularity and all the hard work you've put into NEO pays off. Thanks Xik! It's a bit surreal to me, too. I mean, even though I deliberately set out to learn a variety of skills so I could do it myself, I'm still surprised when I actually make stuff. I've heard some writers say similar things, too. Like they're just pretending really hard to be writers, and totally expecting to be exposed as a fraud someday. It's a weird mix of both pride and fear to create a product! S.T.C.A. posted:My apologies if it's been asked, but how do you make your pixel art, BBG? Is it some kind of conversion from other images, or just by-hand pixel art? It's all really awesome. Most of it is just painted in Photoshop at the same size you see it in the final game. I use a mix of mouse and Wacom tablet to do the actual brush work. Mouse is usually for more technical (hard edges) and orthogonal/perspective stuff, while Wacom stylus is used for more organic strokes (e.g. dirt, grime, shadows, plants). I do use a few bits of photos I've taken, though. For example, I'll take skies and clouds from my old photos, either wholesale or as palette selections and textures, particularly in encounter art. I'm glad you like it!
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Sep 23, 2013 16:06
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Thanks! Unfortunately, smallpox is not treatable in NEO Scavenger (at least, for now). The trouble is, I can't remember if that was deliberate or accidental. It was added a while ago, and I can't recall if I meant for it to be treatable. Technically, smallpox can be mitigated with vaccine if treated within the first few days of contracting the disease. However, by the time it shows up in the player's conditions screen in NEO Scavenger, it has been incubating for almost two weeks. Plus, with smallpox supposedly eradicated decades ago, people probably don't keep the vaccine around anymore. From a game design point of view, there's some value in the player knowing that some things "out there" are a death sentence (or a 50/50 gamble, as with smallpox), as it ratchets up the fear. If one knew they could just run to the clinic for a cure-all, disease would just be something that delays plans, rather than something one avoids, ahem, "like the plague." On the other hand, I like having an "out" for most situations, particularly if there's some trade-off. It's a tough call!
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Sep 26, 2013 14:45
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| # ¿ May 18, 2024 01:36 |
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Hey Guys! I'm giving away 6 copies of NEO Scavenger on Saturday! I must be crazy! (Ok, actually, a generous fan inspired me.) If you're looking to get access to the beta, head on over to the contest rules. 4 copies will be reserved for players who don't already have beta access, and 2 copies will be reserved for those that do. Plus, everyone's contest entry will help me do a better job on the story. So have a gander, and spread the word!
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Oct 3, 2013 01:58
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