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tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->
programming is terrible.

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vapid cutlery
Apr 17, 2007

php:
<?
"it's george costanza" ?>

volkadav posted:

~ effort poste ~

I love all the people that claim that js is suitable for large scale application development because there are libraries to do X, Y or Z. Never mind that most of them still suck for whatever reason (e.g. lacking or lovely documentation) so good luck picking the least bad out of the herd of contenders and are all generally developed by ADHD hipsters who will drop maintenance at the drop of a PBR: all of them can only do so much to hide the underlying language from you which is filled to the brim with weird behavior (if you think otherwise, you haven't used js very long... a small appetizer of crazy here: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat). When somebody has to write a book specifically calling out which parts of your language are good, and it becomes a best-seller, that might be a hint that there's a big steaming pile of badness in your language too. It's not like somebody has had to write "C: The Good Parts."

The ultimate irony here is that none of the people jumping up and down about how awesome server-side js is have even an ounce of historical knowledge about their favorite best-ever-zomg-so-awesome-unicorns-and-puppies!!!! language. Javascript on the server-side was tried in the 1990s and was an utter failure (trivia quiz: without using Google, what servers even supported this?). It sucked for writing big apps then, it sucks for writing big apps now, and I'm seriously afraid that a generation of people will grow up thinking that JS is a good idea and waste both their lives and the time of the wiser heads that have to maintain their poo poo later on. I'm glad that you like writing performant server-side code, good on you, but realize that node is only (sort of, in some situations) fast because it embodies a particular design pattern, not because it happens to be javascript. You can write fast evented code in other languages that aren't formless blobs of over-hyped poo (and also note that event handling isn't the only way to skin a cat here).

JS is only tolerable in one place, and that's in the browser to drive event handlers and such for interactive things. That's only true because there aren't any other options (except vbs, lol).

I mean don't get me wrong, I sympathize with liking a language that's totally unsuitable for programming in the large. I liked perl for a long time. :v: But hell is other people's perl code. Say what you will about Java, it puts a hard upper limit on how completely insane you can be (sure there's a FactoryFactoryFactory but that code is still easier to read than somebody who thought it would be cool to write the monthly payroll cron job as one ten thousand character regexp or whatever the gently caress cat-on-keyboard spew you can find in the worst perl codebases). Like so many things, building solid systems requires picking the right tools for the job to hand, and JS is usually not the right tool. Much as you can use a screwdriver as a prybar though, people keep trying to do the wrong thing because they're too ignorant or lazy to reach for the right tools and just like in carpentry will end up hurting themselves or others.

I... guess I'm just :mad: about javascript. Sorry guys, as you were. I hear the bay area is neat? :frogbon:

Agreed

tef
May 30, 2004

-> some l-system crap ->

volkadav posted:

Say what you will about Java, it puts a hard upper limit on how completely insane you can be (sure there's a FactoryFactoryFactory but that code is still easier to read than somebody who thought it would be cool to write the monthly payroll cron job as one ten thousand character regexp or whatever the gently caress cat-on-keyboard spew you can find in the worst perl codebases).

You haven't used enough java if you believe there is an upper limit to lovely code within it.

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Anal Tributary posted:

idk i'm trying to pick and choose my time

i've had school taking up time. i have to get some sort of job this summer; it's gonna be some retail thing, i've got actual projects i want to do (things in javascript, because that's what i know). so that leaves like not a lot of pure learning time

i'd like to learn c, or maybe lisp, but i don't have anything i'm working on that would really benefit from another language, or any projects i want to start that could use another language.

and plus there's so much more poo poo i have to learn besides just languages. i want to learn redis (not that there's much to learn), mongodb, oh, also how to better-use actual SQL dbs, some basic devops stuff (migrations, deploys, etc). i'd like to learn how to do concurrent programming, wanna play around with functional languages, etc., etc.

oh and i also really need to learn mobile web development. maybe even like iphone app development.

so i have to pick and choose. right now i'm doing emberjs stuff because it's an undeveloped ecosystem where i have a chance to really contribute, i'm pretty good at javascript, and a project i'm working on needed a js mvc framework and i found emberjs easier to get started with than backbonejs.


cool i really like how not only did i mention that libraries exist to mitigate callback hell/spaghetti code, i also namedropped a specific one, and yet you still used this as a point :)
anal rush you seem like a great codeing guy but I think there's one thing we can all agree on and that is that you probably masturbate a lot

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug

My Linux Rig posted:

objc is probably one of the easier languages out there, mostly cause of the tools backing it up

i'm not sure how you can consider ios app development hard

compared to java?

Tokin Ring
Jun 12, 2011

  :dong:Teh boners:dong:

Sulk posted:

is there a book on algorithms/data structures which is actually comprehensible without needing to know a shitload of math

no

lol

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

z0ratio fartboner posted:

no

lol

welp

Abandon
Nov 23, 2006
What was all that gibberish in the op

0xB16B00B5
Aug 24, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post
just learn functional programming in archaic languages and then no one will be able to understand if you passed the fizzbuzz correctly

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
there's a dude at work who can't loving shut up about git and at some point he used the phrase "the git revolution" unironically

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
git more liuke git out

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
I mean contrary to popular opinion I don't have a problem with git or anything but jesus christ dude

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

short of going directly to company websites and trying to track people down that way, what do you guys find to be the best places for finding job postings

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug

Sulk posted:

short of going directly to company websites and trying to track people down that way, what do you guys find to be the best places for finding job postings

my linkedin inbox

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug
j/k i never open my linkedin

best job offers come from clients who have recommended me, or from people you randomly meet at a bar or something. i posted about a huuuge offer i got one day from a dude i had been talking with a couple of times but we both didnt know the other worked in IT as well. turned it down tho bc it seemed v difficult

My Linux Rig
Mar 27, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 6 years!

volkadav posted:

~ effort poste ~

I love all the people that claim that js is suitable for large scale application development because there are libraries to do X, Y or Z. Never mind that most of them still suck for whatever reason (e.g. lacking or lovely documentation) so good luck picking the least bad out of the herd of contenders and are all generally developed by ADHD hipsters who will drop maintenance at the drop of a PBR: all of them can only do so much to hide the underlying language from you which is filled to the brim with weird behavior (if you think otherwise, you haven't used js very long... a small appetizer of crazy here: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat). When somebody has to write a book specifically calling out which parts of your language are good, and it becomes a best-seller, that might be a hint that there's a big steaming pile of badness in your language too. It's not like somebody has had to write "C: The Good Parts."

The ultimate irony here is that none of the people jumping up and down about how awesome server-side js is have even an ounce of historical knowledge about their favorite best-ever-zomg-so-awesome-unicorns-and-puppies!!!! language. Javascript on the server-side was tried in the 1990s and was an utter failure (trivia quiz: without using Google, what servers even supported this?). It sucked for writing big apps then, it sucks for writing big apps now, and I'm seriously afraid that a generation of people will grow up thinking that JS is a good idea and waste both their lives and the time of the wiser heads that have to maintain their poo poo later on. I'm glad that you like writing performant server-side code, good on you, but realize that node is only (sort of, in some situations) fast because it embodies a particular design pattern, not because it happens to be javascript. You can write fast evented code in other languages that aren't formless blobs of over-hyped poo (and also note that event handling isn't the only way to skin a cat here).

JS is only tolerable in one place, and that's in the browser to drive event handlers and such for interactive things. That's only true because there aren't any other options (except vbs, lol).

I mean don't get me wrong, I sympathize with liking a language that's totally unsuitable for programming in the large. I liked perl for a long time. :v: But hell is other people's perl code. Say what you will about Java, it puts a hard upper limit on how completely insane you can be (sure there's a FactoryFactoryFactory but that code is still easier to read than somebody who thought it would be cool to write the monthly payroll cron job as one ten thousand character regexp or whatever the gently caress cat-on-keyboard spew you can find in the worst perl codebases). Like so many things, building solid systems requires picking the right tools for the job to hand, and JS is usually not the right tool. Much as you can use a screwdriver as a prybar though, people keep trying to do the wrong thing because they're too ignorant or lazy to reach for the right tools and just like in carpentry will end up hurting themselves or others.

I... guess I'm just :mad: about javascript. Sorry guys, as you were. I hear the bay area is neat? :frogbon:
totally agree, javascript is meant for UI code only, if you're trying to put server code or app code in it then I dunno what to tell you

Unfortunately there are a lot of web developers out there who love the idea of thick clients in the browsers so you'll still have people forcing that idiotic idea down everyone's throats

Hopefully nacl or something similiar will become standard

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

newreply.php posted:

j/k i never open my linkedin

best job offers come from clients who have recommended me, or from people you randomly meet at a bar or something. i posted about a huuuge offer i got one day from a dude i had been talking with a couple of times but we both didnt know the other worked in IT as well. turned it down tho bc it seemed v difficult

i mentioned before that i was at a meetup thing for python users a couple nights ago, the only people who openly said they were hiring were still looking for people to do C#/F#/ASP so it had nothing at all to do with python, plus they said they did pair programming so i was even less interested

the jobs here are almost all asp/java and i've tried throwing some resumes out to places in other cities, i think the problem is unless you're fresh out of college or really qualified it's harder for far away places to take a shot at you. i guess you can lie about your address but then if they want to bring you in it's an issue

Dr. Honked
Jan 9, 2011

eat it you slaaaaaaag
"mm-hmm i love thick clients" *mental image of a fat guy in a burger bun* - a cannibal

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug

Sulk posted:

i mentioned before that i was at a meetup thing for python users a couple nights ago, the only people who openly said they were hiring were still looking for people to do C#/F#/ASP so it had nothing at all to do with python, plus they said they did pair programming so i was even less interested

the jobs here are almost all asp/java and i've tried throwing some resumes out to places in other cities, i think the problem is unless you're fresh out of college or really qualified it's harder for far away places to take a shot at you. i guess you can lie about your address but then if they want to bring you in it's an issue

so why not do a java job? do some python work on your own to show off if you want a python job.
ideally, learn a language for real men, such as C, or it's more evolved, smarter offshoot, Objective-C in conjunction with the wonderful Cocoa and CoaocoaTouch libraries

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
javascript is bad for ui code. i cant even imagine trying to use it for server stuff.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
if ur in sf and are basically competent with js & python get me your resume

My Linux Rig
Mar 27, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 6 years!

newreply.php posted:

compared to java?


java is probably easier since its syntax is pretty similiar to c, but objc has xcode backing it up which is pretty much the best suite of tools I've ever seen for making apps

So really making an app in objc isn't harder than doing it in java

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug

My Linux Rig posted:

java is probably easier since its syntax is pretty similiar to c, but objc has xcode backing it up which is pretty much the best suite of tools I've ever seen for making apps

So really making an app in objc isn't harder than doing it in java

i dunno i do both and i think you are wrong. different strokes

(my strokes are correct)

My Linux Rig
Mar 27, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 6 years!

Shaggar posted:

javascript is bad for ui code. i cant even imagine trying to use it for server stuff.
well the idea is that if you're making a website, then you'll pretty much have to deal with javascript and its best just to minimize your app's dependence on it

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006
ya thats why web "development" sucks

graph
Nov 22, 2006

aaag peanuts

baxate posted:

Honestly, you probably have a good shot at getting a job with the University IT department. They like to hire students.

lol if you hire students at university to do anything IT other than deskside cjing

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

newreply.php posted:

so why not do a java job? do some python work on your own to show off if you want a python job.
ideally, learn a language for real men, such as C, or it's more evolved, smarter offshoot, Objective-C in conjunction with the wonderful Cocoa and CoaocoaTouch libraries

i could, but when every time you read something/someone saying that java is miserable it becomes more and more of a turnoff to ever learn. i have a basic grasp of objective-c (though i need to work on learning actual design for ios at some point), but i was going to spend some time actually learning c itself because there's a lot of c stuff that you don't really need to touch in objective-C/ios dev.

rotor i'd send you a resume (though i'm on the other side of the country) and a little thing i was working on that i uploaded to github but i don't know what level quantifies "competent"

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
anyone actually usin websockets yet? seems like a cool thing

newreply.php
Dec 24, 2009

Pillbug
why would anyone even do web development???

i mean whenever i need a web developed i just pay someone half my hourly rate while i do stuff i like to do??

idgi

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
man, security ruins everything

graph
Nov 22, 2006

aaag peanuts

Sulk posted:

welp

look bro you can 'get' red-black trees and hashing and whatnot but you wont 'get' how to use them at scale on anything significant unless maths

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
my feeling on math & programming is that if you didn't find at least of of:

* linear algebra
* number theory
* calculus
* discrete math

interesting then you should probably look into a career as a plumber or an electrician or something, because those careers more closely resemble the kind of programming you'll end up doing if you don't like math.

rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome
or "maths" if ur from some dingy little back alley of a country

Rufus Ping
Dec 27, 2006





I'm a Friend of Rodney Nano
i fuckin love mathematic

coaxmetal
Oct 21, 2010

I flamed me own dad

rotor posted:

my feeling on math & programming is that if you didn't find at least of of:

* linear algebra
* number theory
* calculus
* discrete math

interesting then you should probably look into a career as a plumber or an electrician or something, because those careers more closely resemble the kind of programming you'll end up doing if you don't like math.

all of those are pretty cool things also so is algorithms

trex eaterofcadrs
Jun 17, 2005
My lack of understanding is only exceeded by my lack of concern.

Sulk posted:

i could, but when every time you read something/someone saying that java is miserable it becomes more and more of a turnoff to ever learn. i have a basic grasp of objective-c (though i need to work on learning actual design for ios at some point), but i was going to spend some time actually learning c itself because there's a lot of c stuff that you don't really need to touch in objective-C/ios dev.

rotor i'd send you a resume (though i'm on the other side of the country) and a little thing i was working on that i uploaded to github but i don't know what level quantifies "competent"

learn the gently caress out of java, move to chicago, sell your soul to a trading firm, get paid 150-175k

double sulk
Jul 2, 2010

trex eaterofcadrs posted:

learn the gently caress out of java, move to chicago, sell your soul to a trading firm, get paid 150-175k

upsides: money
downsides: java, bulls, bears, blackhawks, white sox, cubs

maybe i'll learn java. i dunno

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

My Linux Rig posted:

Hopefully nacl or something similiar will become standard

lol nacl

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Rufo posted:

i fuckin love mathematic

nice1

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rotor
Jun 11, 2001

classic case of pineapple derangement syndrome

trex eaterofcadrs posted:

learn the gently caress out of java, move to chicago, sell your soul to a trading firm, get paid 150-175k

alternately just move to sf and get paid the same at some startup for just dickin around

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