Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

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Peel posted:

I don't really understand why there isn't more talk from Labour about renationalising the trains. The system is so monstrously unpopular it'd be an easy vote winner and they could carry on privatising everything else in the meantime.

New Labour are almost as big of a bunch of fans of privatisation as the Tories. Don't expect them to undo the damage done to the NHS, never mind the damage done to the railways.

Fantastic OP, Bozza. If it were all to be renationalised, what would be the first order of business? What're the projects railway engineers dream of?

# ¿ May 7, 2012 17:20

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 09:59

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Can we, like with Metrolines and Railtrack, just let the whole thing fall apart and then pick up the pieces?

Nicking from Bozza's short-lived blog

quote:

So, getting to crux of this history lesson, I propose a new approach to nationalisation. Network Rail is a great place to start; it currently owns all the infrastructure and has built up in the last several years a lot of engineering expertise. This needs to be expanded on and grown back to the levels BR had, with contractors used to prop up big engineering jobs, and also return to their more natural environment of developing new technologies (lots of money in this if anyone is interested!) with central guidance.

The first thing the government needs to do to make this plan work is simple. Get back our loving trains! Either buy back or order new builds of rolling stock and systematically block the RoSCoS out of the market, because these are the biggest arseholes in the whole bloody set-up. This will require long-term planning and investment from government that must be free from meddling or it won�t work.
Secondly, create a new TOC under either a similar model to Network Rail, or perhaps as a mutual. The latter was actually suggested, by an alliance of the three big railway unions (ASLEF, the RMT and the TSSA, who are collectively perhaps worthy of their own article) as an option for running the currently nationalised East Coast franchise, which operates under this model currently, but with profits heading straight to the DfT. This was unsurprisingly blocked by the government for bullshit reasons so some other bus company which may or may not donate large quantities of money to the Labour or Tory Party can take it over instead.

In this fantasy world, this TOC will then inherit the franchises one by one as the current ones run out, and we will end up with a pseudo-nationalised TOC working for a pseudo-nationalised Infrastructure Controller (Network Rail). We could seriously leave it here quite frankly, as most of the bullshit between the TOCs and NR is legal wrangling, with no respect for overall vision for the future of the network, as it is short-term profits over long-term investments and gain.

In keeping with EU competition rules about open access, this will also allow small operators to bid for access from NR for specials which can�t be provided by the nationalised TOC. The best way to think of this is that the NHS provides you core healthcare, but if you want to get something fancy that is outside of its budget, you have to go private. This is how I envisage services to the continent beginning, but it could also work the other way, with the nationalised TOC being able to expand into the European markets through an era of interoperability that is beginning to emerge through the European Rail Authority.

So, there we have it, a grand summation of why privatisation is poo poo, why BR was more awesome than you thought and why we really, really need to sort things out.
I will add as a caveat that nationalisation won�t be the panacea to all the industries ills. The lack of investment in the UK rail infrastructure means that it will likely be 10 years of sustained payouts from the government before we see a marked improvement. You can�t solve a cut artery with a plaster and we should stop pretending that there are short term solutions to long term problems and get our loving national wallet out and pay for serious remedies.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 01:17

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Venmoch posted:

I don't think this has been covered yet but does anyone know why the fare structure on the rail network is an absolute clusterfuck? Is there any reason why two tickets on the same train cost less than one? (EG going Westbury to Newbury and then Newbury to London is cheaper than Westbury to London even though its the same train.)

My personal example is that you can get a Birmingham -> Edinburgh student ticket for �30*, but to take the same train from a few stations after Birmingham is �45.

It's that way because they can get away with it. If you don't have a car, the only options you have for long-distance travel are trains and megabus, and with the latter you get what you pay for. As most most people don't check multiple routes, they never find the alternatives.

*twice what it was 4 years ago. gently caress you CrossCountry.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 09:50

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Jonnty posted:

Wow, the government have just relented on their decision to award the WCML to First citing "significant mistakes in the way civil servants calculated the risks for each bid." This is pretty big - I wonder how deliberate the mistakes were. They'll now have to rerun the competition.

One consequence of this is that it now looks certain that, come Decemeber, both west and east coast long-distance services will be under public ownership for the first time since 1997. Under a Tory government. Mental.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19809717

What're the chances actual corruption will be uncovered when people start investigating this?

# ¿ Oct 3, 2012 06:27

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Munin posted:

Well, a quote from it would be:

Bozza is Peter Hitchens, I claim my five pounds.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2012 14:41

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEkD3SjCCM

When did workplace health and safety become a thing? I ask here because I figure BR would've been a leading light in best practices.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2013 10:22

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

So this article on battery-powered trains got me thinking: what're the next-gen technologies as far as rail transport is concerned? I know there's maglev and all, but that seems like a dead end because of infrastructure costs.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2013 18:10

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

quote:

The Spanish government has decreed three days of official mourning after Wednesday's train crash near Santiago de Compostela in Galicia, which left at least 78 people dead and 130 injured, 20 of them seriously.

Few of the 218 people on board escaped injury, although both drivers were unhurt. As the investigation is ongoing there has been no official statement on the cause of the accident, but one of the drivers reportedly told local government representatives that he was travelling at 190km/h on a curve with an 80km/h speed limit.

Isn't this the kind of thing that should send alarm bells screaming everywhere? Or am I overestimating the amount of data a train sends back to a control room?

# ¿ Jul 25, 2013 17:57

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Bozza posted:

Read that article on the bus this morning and nearly threw my phone out the window in an angry rage.

One of the most ill informed pieces of writing I've read in a long time. I mean, using the loving West Coast Main Line as an example of how privatisation worked is just comedy loving gold.

I wish I could debate these knobheads in person.

Tried emailing the Guardian and asking whether you couldn't do contribute a response piece?

e: actually I suppose the Network Rail PR department wouldn't be too happy with you for that

# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 11:59

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Overminty posted:

Could you (or anyone) go into a bit more detail about those other options? Genuinely curious. Apologies as I'm sure it's been talked about before ad nauseam.

The central problem in my eyes is that HS2 supposes more people should be working in London. �42bn of investment in the North would go a long way towards correcting the brain drain half the country suffers.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2013 23:06

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Brovine posted:

The engineering work recently along the Lea Valley lines, which is (as far as I know) total track renewal moving northwards, has got me wondering. Any chance someone in the know can do an effortpost on track laying/renewal processes and so forth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MKcTbYDP7w

# ¿ Jan 7, 2014 16:03

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

How long does it take this kind of court case to mature? When will we know if they've successfully stalled it past the next election?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2014 08:45

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

MyFaceBeHi posted:

I still don't think that HS2 is a good idea, but that has more to do with the fact that I won't see any benefit from it because I don't live in either Birmingham or London. Obviously I understand that it can't connect to every town and city in England because then you lose the benefits of zooming around at 180mph or whatever but still, doesn't stop me from moaning in a very British way (I won't benefit from it therefore no one should).

I saw some news stories a while back about political pressure to bring forward HS2 Phase 2, which would link Manchester/Leeds/Sheffield to Birmingham, but I don't know if it actually went anywhere. Wikipedia says construction is currently planned to start in 2022 for completion in 2032.

# ¿ May 3, 2014 16:59

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

For God's sake why? Capacity/enlargement issues at Piccadilly (couldn't they rebuild the closed station across from Piccadilly or something)? Airport accessibility? Sheer perversity?

Your mistake is thinking of Manchester as its own city rather than an extra airport for London.

# ¿ May 4, 2014 08:09

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Install Windows posted:

Most high speed trains won't be able to do that, due being built to European loading gauges, but some trainsets will be available that can run through taking advantage of what should be less congested HS2 tracks as an express route.

fishmech you're a brit :psyduck:

# ¿ May 5, 2014 21:25

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

twoot posted:

Signing up to a contract which was so one sided it would have enabled the contractors to build a £500million golden cock and get out with no challenge didn't help either.

Was it stupidity or corruption on the council's part?

# ¿ Jun 2, 2014 18:32

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Bobstar posted:

Come to think of it (and not train related, sorry), what's the law on that, if you've been sitting at a broken traffic light for 15 minutes on red? Give up and turn around? I can't imagine a driver being let off a red light camera fine just because it's broken.

Give up and turn around. Never run a red light if you've got any choice whatsoever. The fine is not what's at risk.

coffeetable fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Aug 23, 2015

# ¿ Aug 23, 2015 10:45

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 09:59

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

To contrast, here's the NY subway, which still runs on people flipping levers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx3S3UjmnA

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 18:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway