Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

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FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

I assume people didn't drink undiluted wine for the same reason that people today don't drink orange juice concentrate straight out of the can.

I also assume it was shipped and stored concentrated because it was cheaper to move and easier to store that way (again, same reason that lots of orange juice is shipped as concentrate)

# ¿ Dec 6, 2021 18:01

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 16:09

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

cheetah7071 posted:

it occurs to me I don't have a good instinct for where the early modern ends. 1800ish?

The usual endpoint is the French Revolution and/or the Age of Napoleon (which is the usual starting point for 'modern' European history). So, any time between 1789 and 1815.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2022 00:10

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Another huge drag on the French economy was that the piecemeal nature of the tax system encouraged internal smuggling. Some ridiculous number of people in France were employed, part or full time, as smugglers (or as state agents attempting to suppress smuggling). Just completely wasted energy as far as the aggregate national economy was concerned.

Yet another thing the Revolution was big on was imposing a universally agreed upon system of weights and measures, parts of which stuck around and became globally accepted (the metric system) and parts of which faded away (the Revolutionary calendar).

FMguru fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jan 14, 2022

# ¿ Jan 14, 2022 00:15

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Yeah, the Royal Progress of constantly moving the king and his court was a big part of medieval government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itinerant_court

It had a whole bunch of uses:
1) You could park your court in an area where you suspected loyalties were a little thin to keep an eye on people
2) Moving the court around means you don't exhaust all the food and timber and game in a region
3) You get to dump the cost of maintaining your court onto your subjects (and it's a good way to pauperize a disloyal, ungrateful, or disliked noble)
4) You get to follow seasonal trends for maximum enjoyment and comfort (move south in the winter to avoid the cold, move north in the summer to avoid the heat, arrive at hunting forests at the exact right moment for hunting the prey that you want, etc.)
5) If there's a crisis (like an invasion or an uprising) you can move to near where the crisis is occurring to manage it more closely (or if something is really threatening, you can move away from it)
6) Every time you move to a new place, the locals have to put on a big ceremony welcoming you and you get to progress through the city or town in all your finery while crowds cheer. It's a good way to get out to see and be seen by your subjects.

And on and on.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2022 18:46

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

What's interesting (IMHO) is the transition away from itinerant courts and towards permanent settled courts, most famously Louis XIV and Versailles (and all its imitators), because it turns all the virtues and characteristics of the traveling on their head. Instead of going out and keeping an eye on your magnates, you force them to come to your palace (where you can keep an eye on them), etc.

Eventually, all the big shots in Europe end up constructing multiple giant luxury palaces (often in the form of deluxe 'hunting lodges') and they'd travel between them on a seasonal basis, dragging their courts with them.

(I just finished reading Blanning's The Pursuit of Glory, which goes into this quite a bit).

# ¿ Jan 18, 2022 19:33

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Xixero

# ¿ Jan 19, 2022 00:51

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

This is also everyone who's ever just begun studying nineteenth century handwriting in any language.

I remember someone asking an esteemed professor of American History why so many dissertations were written about increasingly obscure subjects in the 20th century while all sorts of interesting questions from the 19th/18th/17th century were going wholly unaddressed.

That professor gave a one-word answer: "Typewriters."

# ¿ Mar 18, 2022 06:50

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Fish of hemp posted:

How do you say DEEZ NUTS in ancient Greek?

Per Google Translate: ξηρούς καρπούς (xiro�s karpo�s)

# ¿ Apr 22, 2022 20:46

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Kylaer posted:

This is an Alcibiades reference, isn't it?

Alcibiades nutz

# ¿ May 10, 2022 23:49

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

sullat posted:

Haha those Elamites, amirite?

He�s just saying what we�re all thinking.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2022 00:32

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1540980347847974912

Cool.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2022 19:07

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Scott's Against The Grain makes the argument that disease is a very recent invention that was almost entirely unknown before the transition from hunter-gatherer to settle agriculturist. Most human diseases actually originate from animals and that wasn't something that happened until humans decided to settle down and live cheek-to-jowl with their chickens and cows and pigs (and the rats and insects that settled life with animals brings) and most especially all their poop.

He's a non-specialist who was intentionally writing a provocative book, so take it with as many grains of salt as you like.

# ¿ Sep 2, 2022 05:06

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Yeah, the functional distinction between "Ironic Fascist" and "Fascist" in effectively nonexistent.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be"

# ¿ Oct 27, 2022 04:16

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Tomn posted:

I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns.

I thought it was a rise-of-the-bourgeois thing - the emergence of a class of people who were rich enough to afford a fancy meal but not able to afford their own gourmet chef and liveried servants and pantry and kitchen and elegant dining room and napkins/tablecloths/cutlery/dishes/etcetera created the demand for institutions that let you rent that sort of experience for a night.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2022 00:37

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Nessus posted:

This stuff is often fairly easy to find because the qualities that make an area good for a large settlement are fairly persistent.

Yeah, that was always my assumption, that cities are built where they are for objectively good reasons (defensible terrain, sources of clean water, proximity to or control of a natural trade route, etc.) and if a city gets destroyed for some reason (sacked and razed, earthquakes, etc.), those objectively good reasons will tempt people to build a new city on the exact same spot as the old one.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2023 19:03

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Telsa Cola posted:

Make it comparative and you might be able to check out the worlds second largest ancient dildo collection at the musuem of London.

The largest ancient dildo collection? It's just down the street, and they call it "The House of Lords".

# ¿ Feb 22, 2023 20:04

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

https://twitter.com/OptimoPrincipi/status/1628346765983219714

:hist101:

# ¿ Feb 22, 2023 23:58

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

This kickstarter (for a tabletop skirmish miniatures game set among street gangs in ancient Rome) might be of interest to this thread's readers:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/footsore-miniatures/gangs-of-rome-a-28mm-gang-fight-skirmish-game

# ¿ Mar 15, 2023 21:04

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

I visited the Getty Villa in Los Angeles a little while back and was struck by one display of ancient Greek drinking vessels - most of which were decorated with satyrs and nymphs and boners and naked ladies and loving. A typical example: https://www.getty.edu/art/collection/object/103TSH

quote:

Attic Red-Figure Kylix
about 510 B.C.
Phintias

Tondo: a crouching satyr with an erect phallus, long hair and a bushy beard holds two drinking vessels (kantharoi). He looks back over his shoulder. An inscription, Phintias painted [it], surrounds the figure.

Exterior, A: a nude youth crouches and masturbates while holding the foot of a calyx krater before an older woman. She leans back, also holding the base of the krater, and cradling it against her outstretched right arm. Her hair is tied up in a cloth, an earring is evident in her left ear, and the painter has rendered fleshy folds on her belly and under her chin.

Exterior B: two similar figures to those on side A, again engaged in sexual activity. A nude youth, this time with traces of hair on his cheeks, reclines while a nude woman grasps his penis with her right hand. She is in a crouched position over his legs, and though comparable in physical appearance to the woman on side A, does not wear a head cloth or earring. At the top, an inscription, E [...] A I E ? O, perhaps uttered by the youth (whose lips are parted and who gestures with his right hand).

an entire room full of these things, just the 500 BCE equivalent of tacky party bullshit you'd buy today at Spencer's Gifts. Can't wait to have the guys over for this month's symposium, got a whole set of new Naughty Satyr drinking cups ordered in from Corinth to show off, everyone will just loving die laughing. We have more in common with our ancient ancestors than we think sometimes.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2023 19:23

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Amazon has "The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium" priced at $45 (October 1, 2023 release date).

And yeah, that was a good ep today.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2023 05:29

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Cyrano4747 posted:

Capital-C Civilization is when someone starts selling tasty grilled meats on bread from a cart in the public square.

And also says that if they sell for any cheaper they're cutting their own throat.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2023 17:31

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Tired: Aliens built the pyramids
Wired: Aliens taught humans about melting cheese and putting it on things

# ¿ Jul 6, 2023 16:51

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

sullat posted:

Sextus Frontinus sounds like the kind of name you make up when you're planning on ditching your girlfriend in Judea or something.

He was grammar school classmates with Naughtius Maximus and Silius Soddus.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2023 06:48

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

PittTheElder posted:

Honestly, I have to admire the tiny pockets of Greek still hanging on ten centuries later.

Keeping the faith and awaiting the return of Constantine XI Palaiologos.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2023 07:34

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Just wandered across my Xitter feed

https://twitter.com/AlisonFisk/status/1694653133815709943

Neat!

Addenda:
https://twitter.com/AlisonFisk/status/1694779379421782256

# ¿ Aug 25, 2023 19:21

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

LITERALLY A BIRD posted:

unrelated to current discussion, but a good excuse to use this smiley:

4 exceptionally preserved Roman swords discovered in a Dead Sea cave in Israel

Still in their scabbards! Amazing.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2023 18:58

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

https://twitter.com/Poochigian/status/1699744381488517428
Solid mix of :black101:

and

# ¿ Sep 7, 2023 17:12

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Cessna posted:

None of this makes them "not a sea power." As it is, they made themselves a sea power, took on the other sea power (Carthage), and defeated them at sea.

Yeah, they were such a dominant sea power that they turned the most important sea in their world into their own private lake, and kept it that way without challenge for almost 500 years.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2023 16:50

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Gaius Marius posted:

Just watch the Opera

Hell yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSn_UAquOfw

I made the trip to NYC last spring to see it in person, it was worth every penny and every moment.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2023 22:21

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

zoux posted:

In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony sun god's blessing, but because Ma'at is maintained as the pharoah acts as an intercessory between the gods and man.

https://twitter.com/MadocCairns/status/1598396493723041800

# ¿ Dec 5, 2023 23:05

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Don't forget the best single-volume history of anything - McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I'd point to Terry Gilliams Medieval Lives over Distant Mirror.

I think that was Terry Jones, not Gilliam.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2023 19:46

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Tulip posted:

We've had a good 2000 years of weird contrarians to come up with every single take about the empire, true universality is not I think a reasonable expectation. There are however definitely emperors who have a better reputation than others, and its worth engaging with the question of "what are some contrarian takes on generally considered good emperors" in good faith, because it helps us engage with how we think about what makes an emperor good vs bad, or indeed if we even want to consider emperors to be good, since they're y'know emperors.

It's hard to escape the long shadow of Gibbon, who really got into the idea of the peak of civilization being the era of the Five Good Emperors (a term I just learned - thanks, Wikipedia! - was coined by Machiavelli of all people).

# ¿ Dec 15, 2023 06:43

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Grand Fromage posted:

If you didn't want to be dug up you should've stayed alive.

Yep, exactly. Skill issue.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2023 02:55

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

He was allowed to retire to obscurity and died in his sleep, which was a better ending than most of the (non-Augustus) people who played high-level politics during that age got.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2024 19:09

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

There was a drawing of what the Roman emperors probably actually looked like that made the rounds a few years back, and a lot them looked like guest actors on The Sopranos.

Vitellius may have moved slow, but it was only because Vitellius didn't have to move for anybody.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2024 06:33

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

I was thinking the Romans might want coastal outposts and forts and ports along the Red Sea coast in order to control/protect/tax/de-piratize the trade passing through, but then I thought about how an isolated coastal outpost that occasionally had ships with spices and silks docking at it would would just be constantly raided by desert nomads*, and yeah maintaining a loose network of tributaries and alliances was probably the better policy.

* At least until the Romans unlock Ornithopters on the tech tree, according to this documentary I saw in IMAX recently.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2024 18:22

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 16:09

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Grand Fromage posted:

It's one of those things where we'd need much better and different sources than we have. But as you say the circumstantial evidence is very strong that for the most part, people liked being Roman. There are very few rebellions with the explicit purpose of not being Roman anymore, and most of those happen relatively soon after the Roman conquest of an area. Even the Social War wasn't about leaving Rome that much, the socii were mostly mad that they weren't being given the Roman privileges they thought they were due. They rebelled because they wanted to be more Roman.

For me, what sets Rome apart from, say, the Assyrians was that even when it fell apart, people still clung to their Roman identities and looked to the legacy of that empire for legitimacy and validation for centuries and eventually millennia afterwards. Charlemagne presenting himself as re-founding the Roman Empire (even traveling to Rome for his crowning), Moscow calling itself "Third Rome" after 1453, the way the barbarian kingdoms that overran Rome in the fifth century still adopted Roman titles and imagery, the ongoing use of "Tsar" and "Kaiser" as titles of authority, the continuation of a ramshackle Holy Roman Empire into the 18th century - people wouldn't be doing that if the cultural memory of Roman rule was "Ugh, those assholes."

I mean, I live in a country where one major center of political power resides in a Senate that meets in domed classical building on a hill called "Capitol" that is decorated with fasces and eagles.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2024 03:43

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