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I posted this in the BMW thread but it's more appropriate here. Is there a general consensus on the safety of tracking a car with a patched tire? My Giulia QV picked up a bolt in the tread yesterday. Got it patched at Discount Tire. Can it hold up to an HPDE day? The tire has 2700 miles so I could get a new tire under the road hazard warranty, shave it down, and get it swapped over. But that's a big pain in the rear end and I don't have a lot of free time during the week.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:09
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Zoom Zoom, motherfuckers
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The tire manufacturer's lawyers will say that the tire officially no longer has the speed rating after a puncture and repair. However, I and others have run patched tires on track before without incident plenty of times. When you say "bolt", do you mean typical nail/screw sized puncture or something worse?
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Apr 29, 2024 23:37
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The bolt head looked to be ~12mm. It was definitely larger than a nail. The tire shop didn't call that out as a problem.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:52
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The tire shop is mainly concerned about whether it'll hold air. On track, you also need to be concerned about how much the structural integrity was compromised. 12MM head should be an M8 bolt, so 8mm shank. If the bolt head went through the carcass (12mm hole), I would not drive that tire on track. If just the thread went through (8mm hole), I'd consider that pushing the upper bound of what's acceptable to repair for track work. I wouldn't worry about shaving a new tire if the complementary one just has 2700 street miles (put the new tire on which ever side will wear harder for your track direction) . Does it make it easier to source the replacement if you just get a new one and throw it on?
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Apr 30, 2024 00:04
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It does, for sure. The Tire Rack road hazard warranty pre-approved me for a replacement. I think it covers installation as well. I'm bad with physics - if the course runs clockwise would it be the left side tires that get more load? To your other question, the bolt head didn't go all the way through but it got close. I'll push forward with the replacement. One more thing. I measured the tread of the undamaged rear right tire and it was between 7/32" - 8/32" depending on where it was measured. New is 10/32" tread depth. Still in the clear for running an unshaved tire?
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Apr 30, 2024 00:47
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One of my Hankook RS4s picked up a screw in the outermost tread block (so, highest heat/load part of the tire) and was patched at the NASA AZ tire trailer, and was fine. I'd glance at it between sessions, but wouldn't be worried.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:04
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:It does, for sure. The Tire Rack road hazard warranty pre-approved me for a replacement. I think it covers installation as well. I'm bad with physics - if the course runs clockwise would it be the left side tires that get more load? . quote:One more thing. I measured the tread of the undamaged rear right tire and it was between 7/32" - 8/32" depending on where it was measured. New is 10/32" tread depth. Still in the clear for running an unshaved tire? Yes
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Apr 30, 2024 02:26
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Thanks guys. I’m going to order the tire tonight. Any Phoenix-area goons doing the Pro Autosports AMP day on May 11, hit me up.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:08
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Track weekend: One day of rain on and off and then another that was beautiful. Summit Point Main is a much faster course than its neighbor Shenandoah. The car has a lot more braking and grip available now with the new alignment, tires, and pads so I am still feeling out where the limits are.   
ThirstyBuck fucked around with this message at 15:40 on May 6, 2024 |
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May 6, 2024 03:22
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:Thanks guys. I’m going to order the tire tonight. Ah, I should have checked SA earlier. I normally avoid running with ProAuto but I'd have signed up  Have fun out there.
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May 8, 2024 01:34
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drat! I meant to PM you and forgot several times.
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May 8, 2024 03:52
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Oh, forgot to check-in here. I did another event this past weekend and the RS4s plus not overdriving it plus keeping pressures in check solved my issues, thanks for the advice. I did end up putting the car on a rack but I was more or less where I figured I was aside from having a quarter degree less camber than I was gunning for and a tenth degree more toe than I thought. Reckon I'll leave all that alone and go after some little quality of life issues for now.
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May 9, 2024 01:21
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BlackMK4 posted:Ah, I should have checked SA earlier. I normally avoid running with ProAuto but I'd have signed up Hey do you know if there’s a database of cars that pass AMP sound limits? The exhaust valves on the Alfa open around 3k and I have no way to keep them closed above that.
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May 10, 2024 19:04
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:Hey do you know if there’s a database of cars that pass AMP sound limits? The exhaust valves on the Alfa open around 3k and I have no way to keep them closed above that. I don't think there is one, unfortunately. I've never actually seen an Alfa out there yet, but if you can figure a way to rig up some 90* dryer vents or something that usually works.  :salute:
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May 10, 2024 20:07
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:Hey do you know if there’s a database of cars that pass AMP sound limits? The exhaust valves on the Alfa open around 3k and I have no way to keep them closed above that. Can't you just unplug the actuator?
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May 10, 2024 21:15
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SlapActionJackson posted:Can't you just unplug the actuator? I wouldn't be surprised if the default mode is "exhaust open" and it only closes when commanded to by the computer. Also works for an excuse to make the exhaust bark a bit on initial startup.
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May 10, 2024 22:46
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Regardless of what mode you’re in, above ~3500rpm the valves open. I have an obd2 controller and I tried to close the valves in Race mode and it immediately went back to open. The dryer vent solution is a good idea. Shame it’s the night before. :/
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May 11, 2024 06:51
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Probably too late but can you just crawl under and unplug the exhaust valve actuator?
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May 12, 2024 13:59
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I didn't have enough time to really dig in and the car passed sound anyway.   Trip report: Overall it was a very fun day, I miss doing track days, and quite a few people were excited to see an Alfa at the track (kids' car seats and all). And I ended the day with the car going home on a flatbed.   I am so unbelievably rusty. I spent the first session letting every pass me, even Miatas. If someone shows up in your mirrors it doesn't matter if you have 3x the power, they're faster where it counts and you let them by. That's just HPDE law. I couldn't find a rhythm, the steering was really vague, the tires got greasy after 12-13 minutes, and I just couldn't find confidence in the car. I got a splash of 100 octane from the Dill Petroleum guys and they mentioned talking to one of the instructors. Second session wasn't much better but I passed a couple cars so I had a marginal improvement but still not having a great time.  After the second session I spoke with the instructor for about 20 min and he wanted to join me for my third session of the day. Having his instruction in the car with me was magical. He pushed me to have confidence in the tires and trust they would grip. I was braking too much - a direct reflection in my lack of confidence and experience relative to 2010 - 1012 when I was doing this 15-20 times per year. He also encouraged me to steer with the throttle and reduce the load on the front tires. It was tough to get my head around that at first and I realized it was because 95% of my track time is in mid-engined cars and that's just not something you do. The tires got a little overheated like I experienced earlier in the day but not nearly as limiting as before, likely due to better technique and tire management (all thanks to the instructor). I left the car in Auto mode the whole day as well. I was pretty hard on myself for not shifting on my own but I came to a realization halfway through the day: This car is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than most of my track time in a Lotus (even my supercharged one). And the gearing is so tight you're constantly shifting. With time and experience I could get there but the auto allowed me to focus on brake points and feeling the car through corners. So was it lame to be in Auto mode? Yeah. But I understand why people would go that route on the track. My brain can't keep up with how fast the car was. By the fourth session I felt like I was back. I lined up first with a 981 GT4 and a C8 Corvette behind. I lost the GT4 after a lap and the C8 stayed 20-30 seconds behind me until my car gave up. The brake light on the dash came on and I didn't quite know what to make of it. It's the same light that comes on when the ebrake is enaged so I thought something happened there but after getting back to the pits, the brakes were definitely hosed. Full metal on metal contact. Rotors were toast. I also corded the front left tire. I'm honestly impressed that the braking performance never faded - I only knew there was a problem because I glanced down and saw the warning light. I still had full stopping power and there's NOTHING left on the pads.   I made it just outside the facility when I realized I wasn't going to make the 35 mile drive home. AAA to the rescue. I'm hoping the damage was limited to front pads, rotors, and tires. I have those parts on order; we'll see how it goes.  Here's a video from the event. I had the instructor with me and it wasn't my best time of the day but it's close enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGDbPOt4D3A
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May 13, 2024 23:12
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All that said... I think I got the bug. The problems I had with the tires were likely camber related and really highlights why you should have a dedicated track car. And now that my kids are older I have a green light from the wife to do these events more often. So where I was previously thinking of getting a one expensive car (911 of some flavor) I think I'd like to have a daily and one I'd be comfortable tracking. I'd like to get some input based on my criteria (that is admittedly contradictory). Wants:
I used to be a die-hard manual person but having experienced an Auto... I'm willing to consider a PDK/DCT or decent ZF 8sp. But, in complete contradiction, an auto would be a lot less fun on the street. I was previously thinking a high mile ND2 Miata would be a good starting point but I'm worried it's not enough power given my prior experience (300hp Elise or 200hp Exige). And S2000 are about as fast as ND2s, right? I will fully admit that keeping some very fast cars behind me was intoxicating but I'm nervous about having an expensive car on the track now. After I wrecked the Elise on track years ago I realized I'm not invincible. So it's the push/pull of wanting something fast, inexpensive, and lightweight. I'm open to buying someone's pre-built track car as long as it's still streetable. I'm open to suggestions!
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May 13, 2024 23:15
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How about something like a Cayman S?
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May 14, 2024 00:16
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Miata is always the answer. Yeah they're low power but they have enough. Cheap parts and consumables. They're popular as hell for a reason. BRZ, s2000, 350z, and corvettes some to mind. Basically in order from slower to faster. BRZ needs an oil cooler for track work, and some kind of oil baffle or accusump if you throw more grip at it. S2K has the same oil issues iirc. The 350zs and vettes have a staggered tire setup that makes rotating tires for max life a bit of a pain. I know a lot of z owners will go square but you're either rolling the front fenders or the narrower rear looks weird. Miata, BRZ, and S2K can all be k24 swapped for dirt cheap reliable 200hp engines. Then the mods are sky's the limit too. Weird option would be a factory five race car. Looks like a Shelby cobra, fox body mustang underneath though. Parts are cheap as hell, 2400lbs with driver is possible, and they sip tires. I would not track the street version though. Full cage one is street able in sunny weather. It will not handle like a lotus though. They killed the NASA spec class so you might be able to find one cheap.
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May 14, 2024 00:55
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Nix the streetable requirement and get a Spec Boxster. Or just wear ear plugs if youre gonna drive more than 15 minutes or 70 mph. You'll be faster and more comfortable than a gutted NA Miata, thats for sure.
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May 14, 2024 00:59
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Miata with a k-swap sounds like a good idea, could also get an ND and put a turbo or something in it?
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May 14, 2024 01:02
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2009+ Mazda RX-8 gets my vote. Edit: This is why. McTinkerson fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 01:08
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Also always drive to the track or truck and trailer? I'd rather trailer a cheaper car and not sweat breaking it.
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May 14, 2024 02:11
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it’s always going to come down to fast, cheap, reliable: pick two. If you just want to do lapping days and have no desire to do wheel to wheel, Corvettes and Mustangs are cheap and plenty. If you want to lean towards a known quantity and have some flexibility, E46 330i is an option. The less bespoke/rare/unicorn something is, the more laps you’ll be able to put in. I’d lean towards something naturally aspirated and pedestrian. I, obviously, don’t put too much stock in having all the horsepower; i get the appeal and desire, but idk i really don’t have too many warm and fuzzy thoughts about being able to hit 150mph because that also means i can hit the wall going 150mph. Phone fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 02:30
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completely unrelated: ive been having real bad thoughts about ZZW30 MR2s lately… real bad thoughts, like 2AR bad thoughts
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May 14, 2024 02:32
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Honestly I would just look at whatever spec series is popular in your area, this helps ensure support and makes selling easier if you change your mind. There's spec series and almost any speed range you could want; miata, e30, 944, boxter, e46, etc. All of these can be street legal.
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May 14, 2024 14:04
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best idea, k20swap a fitMcTinkerson posted:2009+ Mazda RX-8 gets my vote. this is my vote for giving serious thought/ kicking rad NitroSpazzz posted:Honestly I would just look at whatever spec series is popular in your area, this helps ensure support and makes selling easier if you change your mind. There's spec series and almost any speed range you could want; miata, e30, 944, boxter, e46, etc. All of these can be street legal. This is the practical answer Phone posted:completely unrelated: ive been having real bad thoughts about ZZW30 MR2s lately… real bad thoughts, like 2AR bad thoughts I've got a 2zz swap, they own. If I did it again, I would go with a na k swap 9000 type deal. 2ar are sick nasty. I know that Frankenstein dude has gotten his engine over 8k, so that point might be moot now. at over 20 years old, they are well into the shitbox category though. and hard tops cost more now then mine car that came with a hardtop. hella cheap on consumables though!
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May 14, 2024 16:26
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:All that said... I think I got the bug. The problems I had with the tires were likely camber related and really highlights why you should have a dedicated track car. And now that my kids are older I have a green light from the wife to do these events more often. So where I was previously thinking of getting a one expensive car (911 of some flavor) I think I'd like to have a daily and one I'd be comfortable tracking. too bad it doesn't tick all your boxes - and I am not suggesting it'd be a good car for your use-case, but I listed my BRZ a few days ago. I wasn't intending on posting about it here but I'll just dump the ad anyway. Also, trust me when I say 200whp is more than enough to end up in the top 5-10 fastest cars of the events around here. Especially with ProAuto. quote:$32k OBO - Honda K24 Swapped 2015 Subaru BRZ with a clean title and 37k miles on it, never had any bodywork damage or paint work done. Fits into NASA ST/TT5 as it sits and would slot into GLTC or GridLife TR with some low hanging fruit weight reduction. Car weighs roughly 2650lb without driver but the doors have intact window glass / regulators and crash bar to drop another 50lb or so. Comes with a 200whp flat tune, 205whp flat tune, and a 228whp full power tune - all are 91 octane.           Here is a lap at AMP CW in the car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSMwFAmZdf8 As a comparison, here is my first time driving my stock power Elise at AMP CW a month ago, just overlaying data versus the above BRZ lap shows the Elise will do a 1:44 as it sits once I figure out how to drive it. Both of these laps are pretty loving fast if you start comparing it to existing laps you'll find on YouTube... both of these cars make gently caress all power and AMP is track that benefits power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPh3QBKNWXA BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 20:23 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 19:05
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honda whisperer posted:Miata is always the answer. Yeah they're low power but they have enough. Cheap parts and consumables. They're popular as hell for a reason. ND2 is high on the list. A couple people at the track mentioned the aftermarket hasn't really materialized for that platform but I find that hard to believe. 2022+ BRZ/GR86 is also on the list due to the back seats - if I can't bring my kids in the car the opportunities to use it reduce significantly. But BlackMK4's K24 1st gen BRZ is really drat spicy. I really like the C7 Corvette Grand Sport and it gets high praise from Mr. Smoking Tire but they're still a touch too expensive for me to be comfortable tracking. honda whisperer posted:Also always drive to the track or truck and trailer? I'd rather trailer a cheaper car and not sweat breaking it. Very true! I know nothing about towing and it's intimidating to get into so I'm probably going to ease back into the track work and keep up my AAA membership for now. I'm not an SUV/CUV fan but it seems like people use Macans as tow vehicles for track cars without major issues and that would certainly be more compelling than a big honkin truck. McTinkerson posted:2009+ Mazda RX-8 gets my vote. They're definitely fun but I owned one 14 years ago and I'm not really itching to go back to that platform. Phone posted:it’s always going to come down to fast, cheap, reliable: pick two. 100% agree on the fast/cheap/reliable thing. I tracked a heavily modified Elise for a long time and looking back I got away with quite a bit. I never brought pads, rotors, fluids, tires, or other consumables. I would bring a couple tools and a chair but that was about it. If I had to wrench on my car during the track day I considered that to be dreadful. BlackMK4 posted:too bad it doesn't tick all your boxes - and I am not suggesting it'd be a good car for your use-case, but I listed my BRZ a few days ago. I wasn't intending on posting about it here but I'll just dump the ad anyway. I'm glad I don't have track car money right now. A BRZ with a K24 that is local is pretty drat enticing. I randomly found your Elise AMP video last week when I was looking for track guides. That's a pretty good time and it made me realize how dogshit the lap I posted was. Doing a 1:57 in a 505hp car is really bad. I wish my laptimer had worked in the fourth session because it felt a helluva lot faster than earlier in the day. I take it you're not impressed with the ProAuto crowd? I do prefer NASA's structure but I had a free track day with ProAuto so  Thanks for the feedback everyone. Now I'm a bit more motivated to sell my Exige and start doing this more often.
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May 15, 2024 06:44
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It seems to be a roll of the dice on ND transmissions for track reliability. A good solution is the nc 6 speed swap [and a diff]. The nd1 has more tuning/mod options and an equivalent torque curve. It's tuff to rinse power out of that skyactive.
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May 15, 2024 07:41
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The BRZ does have back seats but there isn't really any leg room FYI.
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May 15, 2024 12:44
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:I'm not an SUV/CUV fan but it seems like people use Macans as tow vehicles for track cars without major issues and that would certainly be more compelling than a big honkin truck. Really? I am looking for a Macan for a daily with some lighter towing and it looks like they are all rated to about 4400 pounds so you are starting to push it with a light car and light open trailer. Cayennes all seem good up to 7700 and being older, many have depreciated like produce. Also, you mentioned 2022+ BRZ’s, have they figured out the oil pressure drops in right hand sweepers yet?
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May 15, 2024 14:29
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honda whisperer posted:The BRZ does have back seats but there isn't really any leg room FYI. My kids are young enough that they will be fine. I'm considering a 911 as a daily so the BRZ back seat would be luxurious in comparison. i own every Bionicle posted:Really? I am looking for a Macan for a daily with some lighter towing and it looks like they are all rated to about 4400 pounds so you are starting to push it with a light car and light open trailer. Cayennes all seem good up to 7700 and being older, many have depreciated like produce. I think in Phoenix I could get away with a Macan since it's pretty flat around here. But if I lived in a mountainous area it would probably be smart to get something a bit more serious. Lots of street cars have oil starvation issues, I have to imagine the solution for the 2022+ BRZs would be similar. A baffled oil pan usually does the trick. Both my Elise and Exige had/have a Moroso baffled oil pan because the stock Celica oil pan suffers oil starvation.
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May 15, 2024 16:27
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i own every Bionicle posted:Also, you mentioned 2022+ BRZ’s, have they figured out the oil pressure drops in right hand sweepers yet? Yeah, there is a pan coming out soon but it's kind of one of those dice roll things as-is. I have some friends that are really fast in them and they've never had an issue, but then you see the videos. They're a pretty good step up over the first gen cars for sure. Pr0kjayhawk posted:I randomly found your Elise AMP video last week when I was looking for track guides. That's a pretty good time and it made me realize how dogshit the lap I posted was. Doing a 1:57 in a 505hp car is really bad. I wish my laptimer had worked in the fourth session because it felt a helluva lot faster than earlier in the day. ay, you'll get there for AMP, it takes time. I'm not a big fan of ProAuto for a few reasons, mostly coming down to the general on track attitude and the amount of contact I've seen in DE. I do run their Platinum days if I need to work something out though, those are a great deal.
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May 15, 2024 16:31
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