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That reminds me, the Stallone movie also had Judge Hershey (Diane Lane's character) as Dredd's love interest. Judges aren't allowed to love. And while some might break that rule, Dredd never would. And also in the new movie I don't approve of Dredd being so unshaven.
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Jun 25, 2012 21:27
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Wow, I cant believe you do not see the main characters eyes ONCE in this trailer. Its one of the most basic ways you connect with a character and all we have is a jaw and a helmet. I understand thats Dredd, but it worked for Stallone because everybody knew who Stallone was. Karl Urban is NOT a recognizable face/name, so the whole not showing his eyes thing is pretty dumb.
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Jun 25, 2012 22:29
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AccountSupervisor posted:Wow, I cant believe you do not see the main characters eyes ONCE in this trailer. That is part of the character. He is just a faceless judge. In the movie he is not taking off his helmet so you will not be seeing his face.
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Jun 25, 2012 22:32
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AccountSupervisor posted:Wow, I cant believe you do not see the main characters eyes ONCE in this trailer. Surely this post can't be serious.
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Jun 25, 2012 22:33
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bobkatt013 posted:That is part of the character. He is just a faceless judge. In the movie he is not taking off his helmet so you will not be seeing his face. Thats why I said I know its part of his character, but for Stallone it worked because Stallone is Stallone and an audience can connect with that. I just dont think it works with Karl Urban. Sorry but I think its a poor decision to cast somebody like Urban for a role that requires you to not see the main characters face. Karls "gruff" is not good enough, I dont think he does the grit of Dredd very well it comes of as incredibly forced. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jun 25, 2012 |
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Jun 25, 2012 22:38
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AccountSupervisor posted:Thats why I said I know its part of his character, but for Stallone it worked because Stallone is Stallone and an audience can connect with that. Yes but if they cast a big name viewers will expect to see their face which is something that you can not do with Dredd
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Jun 25, 2012 22:42
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bobkatt013 posted:Yes but if they cast a big name viewers will expect to see their face which is something that you can not do with Dredd I disagree, if you cast a big name I think it gives you more of a reason to not show his face. I trust Alex Garland to write a script that allows the audience to connect with Dredd despite being faceless, but its a tricky thing to be able to pull off and they dont do a very good job at establishing the "faceless judge" feeling you are supposed to get. All I feel when I watch that trailer is "Who the gently caress is this guy growling like a low rent Batman?"
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Jun 25, 2012 22:51
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It bears mentioning that this song owns by the way.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:14
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AccountSupervisor posted:Thats why I said I know its part of his character, but for Stallone it worked because Stallone is Stallone and an audience can connect with that.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:20
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Xenomrph posted:But you're not supposed to connect with the actor, you're supposed to connect with the character. That's especially true with Dredd - you're not supposed to know what he looks like under the mask, similar to V in 'V for Vendetta'. But having an actor where their voice/attitude/tone is recognizable or has a lot of character allows for your mind to fill in certain gaps that are left when hes faceless. Hugo Weavings voice, body and delivery of dialogue was what carried that faceless performance, that was great casting. I know you arent supposed to connect with somebody like Dredd on that level, but theres still a primal need to connect with a character on SOME level and with a character that is faceless you better have an actor that holds weight in other categories, I dont think Urbans skill as an actor is good enough, he doesnt have the gravitas needed for a character like Dredd. I like Karl Urban, I just think its poor casting for a character that is faceless. Dredd is a character that needs weight, and I dont feel it at all in this trailer. edit: A good example of this is the Green Goblin in the 2001 Spiderman. Yes we see Dafoes face when hes not in costume, but his charisma is what helped carry his preformance when in the faceless Green Goblin helmet. His voice and performance added the character that was needed to make up for having no face. This is "Character in a mask 101" rules, there are things that need to be amped up in order to make up for the lack of facial expressions. A heavy frown and lightly grizzled voice are not enough. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jun 25, 2012 |
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Jun 25, 2012 23:28
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But the problem with that is with Dredd he's not supposed to be a "real person", you're not supposed to connect with him the way you would with Hugo Weaving as V (since you know who Huge Weaving is, what he looks like, and what he sounds like). Dredd is and always has been faceless - his character is carried by his actions and dialogue rather than his facial expressions. Rorschach worked just fine as a memorable, comprehensible character (both in the comic and the movie) prior to him getting unmasked. Hell, even on the page you don't know exactly what Dredd sounds like, because in the written medium it's left to the reader to fill in how the characters sound in their head. With the Stallone movie, Dredd sounded "like Stallone", for better or worse. Likewise, in this new trailer he sounds "like Karl Urban", and as someone intended to be a faceless character that pulls me out of it a little bit because I know who Karl Urban is and what he sounds like. Frankly I think it'd be even better if Dredd were played by a total unknown and you never found out who played him. I think that would go a long way towards selling Dredd as a "faceless avatar of Justice", and would really break the actor-character connection you're bringing up.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:42
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marktheando posted:That reminds me, the Stallone movie also had Judge Hershey (Diane Lane's character) as Dredd's love interest. Judges aren't allowed to love. And while some might break that rule, Dredd never would. That bugged me too. Judge Dredd loves only one thing. The law.
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Jun 25, 2012 23:50
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Xenomrph posted:But the problem with that is with Dredd he's not supposed to be a "real person", you're not supposed to connect with him the way you would with Hugo Weaving as V (since you know who Huge Weaving is, what he looks like, and what he sounds like). Dredd is and always has been faceless - his character is carried by his actions and dialogue rather than his facial expressions. Rorschach worked just fine as a memorable, comprehensible character (both in the comic and the movie) prior to him getting unmasked. Hell, even on the page you don't know exactly what Dredd sounds like, because in the written medium it's left to the reader to fill in how the characters sound in their head. With the Stallone movie, Dredd sounded "like Stallone", for better or worse. Likewise, in this new trailer he sounds "like Karl Urban", and as someone intended to be a faceless character that pulls me out of it a little bit because I know who Karl Urban is and what he sounds like. The biggest problem is that comics =/= movies. When your translate this character to film, there are certain things that must be adjusted. The Dredd comics have the benefit of being able to exaggerate anything they want for the benefit of the character. Either the cinematographer needs to carry some of that weight and exaggerate the character visually or the actor needs to, and it looks like neither is doing that here. Dredd comes off as boring and not bad rear end at all in these trailers. edit: The dialogue is fine, its just what it needs to be for a guy like Dredd. The problem for me is that Karls delivery of these lines have NO weight and a close up of his frown while delivering grizzled lines is not good enough for me to add the weight visually. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 25, 2012 23:55
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Spalec posted:That bugged me too. Judge Dredd loves only one thing. That's not entirely true. He loved his brother, he has family, there are people and things he cares about....they just probably shouldn't expect any hugs or positive statements or him not to brutally murder them in the face of the law.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:05
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AccountSupervisor posted:Either the cinematographer needs to carry some of that weight and exaggerate the character visually or the actor needs to, and it looks like neither is doing that here.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:06
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Xenomrph posted:But the thing is neither of that has anything to do with your original point of being able to see Dredd's eyes (which would violate the #1 rule of Dredd). That's my point - you can pull off Dredd without seeing his face; the comics have been doing it for 30+ years. The very point of his character is that you don't see his face. If you have to see his face, you've missed the point. That's a constraint I'm quite confident movies can work around - see also: Rorschach, V for Vendetta, the Predator (to an extent), the Batman movies, etc. But V for Vendetta is the only one of your examples where you don't see the actor's face? Dredd always wearing the mask is fine, given his intentionally two dimensional nature. He's more of an icon than a character. However, that flatness fits much better within the satyrical tone of the comics than in the (apparently) serious tone of this film. Urban's performances always come off very limp to me though, and hiding his face for the entire film won't help that. It takes a very good actor too pull off a masked performance. Jackie Earle Haley and Hugo Weaving pulled it off, but I don't have the same confidence here...
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Jun 26, 2012 00:13
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Xenomrph posted:But the thing is neither of that has anything to do with your original point of being able to see Dredd's eyes (which would violate the #1 rule of Dredd). That's my point - you can pull off Dredd without seeing his face; the comics have been doing it for 30+ years. The very point of his character is that you don't see his face. If you have to see his face, you've missed the point. That's a constraint I'm quite confident movies can work around - see also: Rorschach, V for Vendetta, the Predator (to an extent), the Batman movies, etc. My point is that one of the biggest problems of having a character this boring is that not being able to see his eyes exaggerates that problem even further. What you get from seeing a characters face/eyes is enough for general audiences to make up for the lack of character in generic big budget action films. Thats why they usually cast big name actors in these films, their gravitas as a recognizable name/face carries the weight that lack in the actual character. It sucks, but thats how its done. Its a big misstep in the creative decisions of this film. Either they should have shown his face or they should have gotten a better actor or shot him better. The whole "but youre not supposed to see his face" thing is fine and all in the comics, but if you are going to try to do the same with a film you really have to adjust other things. My initial complaint was that they adjusted nothing but left him faceless, and Im blown away that they missed that because seeing an actors eyes/face is a pretty basic notion that any professional cinematographer or director should be aware of. They should have sat down and figured out a way to make up for the lack of eyes/face in other departments(acting, camera placement/movement), but it looked like they just said "well thats how it is in the comics" and moved on. It feels like his back is to the camera the entire trailer, if that helps explain what Im trying to get at. Xenomrph posted:But the thing is neither of that has anything to do with your original point of being able to see Dredd's eyes (which would violate the #1 rule of Dredd). That's my point - you can pull off Dredd without seeing his face; the comics have been doing it for 30+ years. The very point of his character is that you don't see his face. If you have to see his face, you've missed the point. That's a constraint I'm quite confident movies can work around - see also: Rorschach, V for Vendetta, the Predator (to an extent), the Batman movies, etc. You can see the eyes of Batman, so thats a bad example. Seriously, there are real psychological reasons you need to see a characters eyes. Unless what is communicated through looking at another humans eyes are made up for in other departments than its a pretty big gaff in my opinion. This trailer communicates nothing about the necessity of him being faceless, neither in theme or plot and instead it creates a huge disconnect towards the main loving character in a bad way. I dont feel a purposeful thematic disconnect, I feel a stylistic and creative gently caress up. Maybe in the full film Ill see the necessity and get the vibe of a "faceless judge" but so far all I feel is "Who the gently caress is the main character and why the hell is he so boring?" AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 00:26
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edit: double post woops
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Jun 26, 2012 00:35
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Bugblatter posted:But V for Vendetta is the only one of your examples where you don't see the actor's face?
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Jun 26, 2012 00:39
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Xenomrph posted:Eventually you see the face of Rorschach and the Predator, but they still worked just fine as faceless entities prior to them being unmasked. In 'Predator 2' you see the Predator's thought-process in the meat freezer as he figures out he's in a trap, and you never see his face until after the fact. With Batman you could argue that seeing Bruce Wayne's face is unimportant to knowing what Batman looks like since they're arguably separate "characters". The point is that Batman works just fine as a character by himself despite being in a full cowl that hides everything except his jawline and his eyes. But what you are not understanding is that all of these examples have what is necessary to make up for these characters having no face. Performance, body movement, blocking and camera movement/placement. Dredd has none of these things in this trailer. Theres nothing interesting about this character and the lack of eyes/face pushes that to an extreme. Theres a reason one of the most basic rules of film and theater blocking is to rarely and hopefully never have your characters backs to the camera/audience.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:46
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AccountSupervisor posted:Maybe in the full film Ill see the necessity and get the vibe of a "faceless judge" but so far all I feel is "Who the gently caress is the main character and why the hell is he so boring?"  Don't get me wrong I totally understand that eye-contact is important in communication, but you seem to be acting like it's the be-all end-all and it's really not. AccountSupervisor posted:But what you are not understanding is that all of these examples have what is necessary to make up for these characters having no face. Performance, body movement, blocking and camera movement/placement. Edit-- forgot another great "faceless character" example: Darth Vader. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 00:51
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Xenomrph posted:I think you just don't "get" Dredd, and hopefully the movie will convey why he's faceless. Frankly I'm not seeing the magical necessity that we need to see a character's eyes to connect with them, and why he's apparently coming across as a complete non-entity blank to you just because you didn't see them in the trailer. That's seriously the most baffling part to me. Was 'Robocop' "boring"? Robocop's personality and performance is radically different once he goes from "Murphy" to "Robocop", to the point that knowing what he looks like and initially seeing his eyes is completely irrelevant. What about Spider-Man? Or Lavarr Burton on Star Trek? So when you don't see someone's eyes, you're unable to read their body language or voice in order to determine character and motivations and the like? How do you function in real life when interacting with someone wearing sunglasses (who surely isn't a trained master actor, and is just a normal person doing something normal like wearing sunglasses)? What about talking on the phone with someone? How can you ever enjoy books, what with there being nothing visual at all for you to connect with? Like I'm seriously not getting what the absolute necessity of eye-contact is. I read Dredd comics when I was younger, so dont tell me I dont "get" Dredd. Read my first post, I very explicitly say "I know this is part of his character". I dont remember much about the comics, but I remember hating the Stallone film and thinking the comics were ridiculous fun. I dont like to come at films that are adaptations from a fan level. I try my hardest to willfully blind myself to my foreknowledge of the source material so that my perspective is fresh and nothing in my critiques is left up to "well thats the way it was in the source material". When approaching this trailer from a perspective in which I know nothing about Dredd, he comes off as boring and uninteresting and part of that is because I cannot see his face. Thats why it was so baffling to me. They actually made me WANT to see his face, I just needed something to connect to on any level. And again dude, you are just not listening to what Im telling you. Robocop, Spiderman(you see Parkers face, so this doesnt count) and Geordi from Star Trek all had characteristics that were highlighted by performance, camera placement/movement or were just interesting characters in the first place. Plus these characters faces are more visible than Dredds. His helmet is large and distracting and doesnt fit with his face well. Urbans jaw is just not big enough. Also, go look at the way they film Robocop and how it highlights his character. They often shoot him from really low angles to communicate his authority. I saw that in one shot in this trailer and again...its not enough. Darth Vader had James Earl Jones's acting and his voice...which literally IS the character mostly. You cannot keep making these comparisons, Xeno, you are just proving my point. If you are going to have a faceless character there have to be things about him that make up for that, Dredd/Urban doesnt have that. 90% of people who are going to see this film do not read Dredd comics and have never seen the 95' Stallone film or they have and share most people sentiments towards it. They arent gunna watch this trailer knowing that Dredd is supposed to be faceless and that its part of his character/thematic. I guess Im only speaking on behalf of the general movie audience theoretically, but I cannot see people who arent familiar with the source material being too excited that you cannot see the face of a boring character portrayed by a non-recognizable actor. Also being able to see the face of a boring character with an uncharismatic actor(Urban was great in Star Trek, so Im confused as to his performance in this) is a HUGE deal, especially when it comes to marketing a film. I dont know, I just think they really hosed up by both making him boring and choosing to stick with the facelessness. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 01:10
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You have seen less than 2 minutes of Karl Urban in what is clearly an early trailer, I'd say it is a bit early to call his performance in the movie bad. Also, Darth vader had the acting of an english bodybuilder.
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Jun 26, 2012 01:31
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MrBling posted:You have seen less than 2 minutes of Karl Urban in what is clearly an early trailer, I'd say it is a bit early to call his performance in the movie bad. I wouldn't say its bad, but its not enough to sell me on the character and comes off as pretty bland. Its pretty important for a trailer to get the viewer interested in the main character of which the title of the film is named after. And regarding Darth Vader, how many people remember his body acting as opposed to his voice acting? Its all a total package, but if you are telling me that James Earl Jones's acting and voice arent what made that character than I dont know what to tell you. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 01:38
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AccountSupervisor posted:I read Dredd comics when I was younger, so dont tell me I dont "get" Dredd. Read my first post, I very explicitly say "I know this is part of his character". AccountSupervisor posted:I dont like to come at films that are adaptations from a fan level. I try my hardest to willfully blind myself to my foreknowledge of the source material so that my perspective is fresh and nothing in my critiques is left up to "well thats the way it was in the source material". Yes you have to make concessions for the medium, but if you have to sacrifice defining character traits in order to adapt it, you should probably stop and think about what you're doing and why. AccountSupervisor posted:Robocop, Spiderman(you see Parkers face, so this doesnt count) and Geordi from Star Trek all had characteristics that were highlighted by performance, camera placement/movement or were just interesting characters in the first place. Plus these characters faces are more visible than Dredds. His helmet is large and distracting and doesnt fit with his face well. Urbans jaw is just not big enough. AccountSupervisor posted:90% of people who are going to see this film do not read Dredd comics and have never seen the 95' Stallone film or they have and share most people sentiments towards it. They arent gunna watch this trailer knowing that Dredd is supposed to be faceless and that its part of his character/thematic. I guess Im only speaking on behalf of the general movie audience theoretically, but I cannot see people who arent familiar with the source material being too excited that you cannot see the face of a boring character portrayed by a non-recognizable actor. AccountSupervisor posted:I dont know, I just think they really hosed up by both making him boring and choosing to stick with the facelessness.  To each their own I guess.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:25
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Xenomrph posted:You said that, but you aren't acting like you understand it. Right out of the gate you were asking why they didn't show his eyes. If you have to ask that about Dredd, regardless of the medium or who's playing him, it's a pretty good reason to think you don't "get" Dredd. You're never supposed to see his face, full stop. I just cringed at the one liners and dialogue he had in the trailer. It wasnt very good and it came off almost like a fan film. I guess thats my issue, their choice to stick with a faceless Dredd over actually caring whether the character comes off like Dredd is not a good sign to me. Aesthetic themes are great and all but sometimes its more "how he is portrayed in a mask" rather than "he is portrayed in a mask". Believe me, I agree that its very important to be respectful to source material, especially something like Dredd and the reason he never takes his helment off. I guess Im more upset that they cast Urban AND made the choice to stick with the helmet never coming off. It was a poor combination of choices. Theres not really much else I have to add to this argument, it pretty much boils down to my opinion that this movie looks bad and one of those reason is the main character being bland and faceless. That said, I really really like Alex Garland so Im hoping this is just a really bad trailer.
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Jun 26, 2012 03:49
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You guys are forgetting that Dredd is NOT a faceless character. You can see his face just not his eyes that is plenty enough to characterize Dredd. Both in the Stallone movie and the new movie his head tells you plenty. Everything about the Stallone Dredd reflects him in the movie. He's in control and his light helmet is more a symbol then new Dredd's tough battle armor looking helmet.  New Dredd you can tell this dude is busy and sees a lot of poo poo. Probably barely has time to sleep let alone be a super clean shaven dude with a nice wrinkle free suit. The characterization thing has to do with seeing enough of the face so you can visualize a human as that character not just so you can see the expressions in the eyes. It's not like Morpheus is a faceless character in the Matrix just cause you don't see his eyes for most of the movie.
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Jun 26, 2012 05:39
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The Stallone Dredd movie, for me at least, is a guilty pleasure with friends. It's just some trashy shlock to laugh at and poke fun of. On top of that being silly entertaining and, as people said earlier, the practical effects were pretty awesome. I know nothing about Judge Dredd - never read the comics. The trailer for Dredd looked a bit cheap in some parts but I got a real "80's action" vibe from it. So, if nothing else, that's a reason for me to see it. I just hope it isn't over-saturated with CGI.
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Jun 26, 2012 06:05
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randombattle posted:You guys are forgetting that Dredd is NOT a faceless character. You can see his face just not his eyes that is plenty enough to characterize Dredd. Both in the Stallone movie and the new movie his head tells you plenty. I think its the design of the helmets/Urbans head that really kill this for me. It would have been fine if his performance came off better in the trailers, but it didnt. It might have worked if they used his entire face to give him so character, but then they didnt, then it might have worked if the visual style communicated Dredds character, but it didnt and by the end of the trailer all I could think of was how terrble this movie looks and how bad it made Dredd look. When I see Stallone in that helmet and that jaw line, I see Dredd(I hate the 95 Dredd btw). When I see Urban in that helmet, I see a guy really trying to be Dredd. Plus the helmet design is way too large and makes Urban look stupid. I made a mistake by saying eyes, I should I have said face. They dont communicate enough with his face in this trailer to sell me on it being Dredd. It just looks so loving dumb with that helmet and Karls "Dredd" voice. Theres no character to it. Its a dude frowning in an oversized helmet, adding a phony gruff to his voice. And before you say "you havent even seen the movie", all Im saying is that I really dont like what this trailer has to show in regards to the way this movie is portraying Dredd. Ill gladly eat my words if Im wrong. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 06:24
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AccountSupervisor posted:I wouldn't say its bad, but its not enough to sell me on the character and comes off as pretty bland. Its pretty important for a trailer to get the viewer interested in the main character of which the title of the film is named after. I feel like you are completely disregarding that there will be other characters interacting with Dredd and thus enabling us to get a better feel for him. That female Judge in the trailer seems to lose her helmet early on and I find it likely that we will see and connect to Dredd through her, so having him remove his helmet wont be necessary.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:53
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I just realized that the X design in the middle of the helmet must be insanely annoying from inside.
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Jun 26, 2012 11:02
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Grendels Dad posted:I feel like you are completely disregarding that there will be other characters interacting with Dredd and thus enabling us to get a better feel for him. That female Judge in the trailer seems to lose her helmet early on and I find it likely that we will see and connect to Dredd through her, so having him remove his helmet wont be necessary. She does not wear a helmet. She is a physic and the helmet interferes with her ability.
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Jun 26, 2012 12:21
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bobkatt013 posted:She does not wear a helmet. She is a physic and the helmet interferes with her ability. I'm not very familiar with the source material beyond the basics, would she be suitable as a character the audience can connect to in the way AccountSupervisor talks about? Kind of like this movie's Rob Schneider?
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Jun 26, 2012 12:34
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm not very familiar with the source material beyond the basics, would she be suitable as a character the audience can connect to in the way AccountSupervisor talks about? Kind of like this movie's Rob Schneider?
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Jun 26, 2012 13:13
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm not very familiar with the source material beyond the basics, would she be suitable as a character the audience can connect to in the way AccountSupervisor talks about? Kind of like this movie's Rob Schneider? Yes Anderson is much more human and relatable than Dredd is, despite her powerful abilities (I'm interested to see how her powers are handled, there wasn't a hint of them in the trailer). Also in this movie she is a rookie meeting Dredd for the first time, so yeah we will be seeing Dredd through her eyes. I'm actually pretty amazed that Anderson wasn't in the Stallone film, she's easily the most popular non-Dredd Judge character.
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Jun 26, 2012 13:20
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marktheando posted:Yes Anderson is much more human and relatable than Dredd is, despite her powerful abilities (I'm interested to see how her powers are handled, there wasn't a hint of them in the trailer). Also in this movie she is a rookie meeting Dredd for the first time, so yeah we will be seeing Dredd through her eyes. Also introducing her is important as she is a major part of Judge Death storyline
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Jun 26, 2012 14:24
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Joe's helmet is over-sized because it has grids of coloured LEDs behind the visor that digitally show his emotional state in the form of emoticons. During his journey into the block he'll pass a party in an apartment where Deadmau5 and Daft Punk are DJing.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:05
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ynohtna posted:Joe's helmet is over-sized because it has grids of coloured LEDs behind the visor that digitally show his emotional state in the form of emoticons. Judging by this his emotional state is never not  Wait, Judge Dredd's first name is Joe? Joe Dredd?
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Jun 26, 2012 15:28
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Joseph. Because when you are designing the perfect judge to inspire fear and obedience, you call him "Dredd". But you also want him to be someone the common man would want to have a drink with, so you make him a "Joe". Good ol' Joe.
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Jun 26, 2012 15:36
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Grendels Dad posted:Wait, Judge Dredd's first name is Joe? Joe Dredd? Yep. And We've actually seen him helmetless too  (Various clones of him/ Judge Fargo have taken off their helmets at one point or another)
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Jun 26, 2012 15:39
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