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ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Munin posted:

I think what ErIog is saying is that "Lie back and think of England Japan" is still very much a thing over there. Basically marriage being a duty relationship with a woman having to fulfill her sexual and other obligations to her husband. Some of that would probably go into marital rape. Not totally outlandish or outrageous conceptually but I would prefer having some sort of non-anecdotal backing for big statements like that.

That said, singling out Japan for this is a little unfair since at least one (female) US Republican representative said that the concept of marital rape was bunkum since the woman essentially gave her consent for any sexual intercourse with her marriage vows.

[edit] It was Phyllis Schafly who stated: "By getting married, the woman has consented to sex, and I don't think you can call it rape,". She's also restated and defended this when interviewed about it later.

[re-edit]To row back to something more relevant. I haven't seen anything in the thread about the recent escalation of the rocks in the middle of the sea spat between Japan and China (and Taiwan gamely trying to stick an oar in too). Could someone give a better outline of what triggered things off on the Japanese side? I heard something about a minister essentially being pushed into making a strong statement but the article didn't go into much detail.

As far as I can tell, the Island (really just rocks in the sea) have been private property of a Japanese family for decades. China has claimed them because, apparently, they do show up on ancient maps. Now the hard-right wing mayor of Tokyo prefecture has announced that he intends to buy the islands from the family, which would make the Japanese state the owner of these islands. Since the central government can't really allow a provincial governor to dictate foreign policy with a nuclear power, they pretty much have to top his offer.

Here is a good article of foreignpolicy.com: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/14/tokyo_s_hawkish_governor_stirs_the_pot

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ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

ocrumsprug posted:

I suspect that it would take something like North Korea lobbing more missiles over the country, before the public would be particularly supportive of removing the pacifist clauses.

This is why I never could figure out why China wasn't pulling on Kim's leash when he was doing it, since China has the most to lose by a re-armed Japan. (China not understanding how the public can influence policy in a democracy I suppose.)

Alternatively, Kim was a loving looney.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Gleri posted:

To be fair to the Japanese, you're just describing the civil law system. I think at least some of the issue that Americans (and other Anglophones) have when assessing the Japanese legal system is not that it is uniquely Japanese but that, like everywhere else that wasn't run by the British at some point, it is heavily civilian. Under the Meiji reforms the Japanese legal system was directly modeled on the German and French legal systems, in particular the German system. The Japanese Civil Code, for instance, is in large part, I've been told, a translation of a draft of the German Code. Even after the Occupation, the Japanese courts are very, very German in style. That is to say that judges are indeed recruited straight out of law school, as are prosecutors, and being a judge is, as far as I can tell from my Japanese colleagues, not seen as being as prestigious as in the common law system. I assume judges serve some kind of extended apprenticeship and training program--I happen to know a Dutch judge and that's how their system works--but I'm really not certain about the details.

I was going to write a longer post about the Japanese criminal law system, but I think the central problem is the obvious one that there's no impetus to change anything (see also: Japan). Nobody cares about prisoners. Without old people, businesses or farmers getting behind it the LDP won't do anything. So laws, like the Prison Law from 1908, just don't get properly updated. And, there's no obvious crime problem. It's the safest country in the world, they say. I think a lot of people are content with the system as is. I think that's also why organized crime is so tolerated. Why give the police stronger enforcement powers (so they could seriously tackle organized crime) when there's "no crime"? Why give prisoners rights?

Of course, change is difficult everywhere, but Japan, at least for past few decades, has been so much worse at it.

It would perhaps be better to say "Japanese courts are very much like German courts were at the turn of the twentieth century". German judges all go through law school and are usually recruited from the top few percent of a given class. That means they had internships at both a lawyer's and at the prosecutor's office so I guess the whole judge+prosecutor vs. the defense lawyer doesn't happen as much (it is an open secret that judges lean towards prosecution, not least because most prosecutors try to build a watertight case including forensic evidence). I'm no expert on how courts in Germany (read: Prussia) were run when Japan modernized, but going by the rest of society, they were probably very conscious of their rank in society and hilariously racist. But Germany has reformed in a way I guess Japan has not.

And, of course, there is nothing I have read in this thread that suggest that Trial By Jury would have any major impact. What kind of jury member would rock the boat by "not being convinced enough"?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
What i do not understand about the way Japan treats women in the workforce is that, as far as I can tell, girls are encouraged every bit as much as boys to do well in school and go to college, where they get an excellent education, only to leave the workforce a few years later or work menial jobs. That can't be good from an economic point of view, when half the education budget shows no increase in skilled workers because the people trained sit at home and wait for the kids to finish school.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Kenishi posted:


I'm convinced that part of the reason why Japan has remained so behind on modernizing their workflow, is because doing so would show how useless some people are. Moving faxes to email and moving tons of paper files to computerized records would cut 2-4 people whose only job it is, is to find, organize and maintain said filing systems. This is why the cost of things in Japan is slightly higher all around then in say the US. In the US, businesses would've cut the unneeded labor, put the freed up salaries on book as more profit and cut prices by like 2-3% (if at all).
This kind of thing (redundant positions) is rampant throughout Japan, whether its a good thing or not I don't know. I do think it creates too much complacency in the system; which is another thing strangling Japan I think.

That is actually very surprising to hear, because I read an article just a few weeks ago that credited Germany's currently decent economic position on a radical restructuring of the workflow in German factories, the concepts of which being imported from Japan. But that apparently started in the 80ies, so what the hell happened in between?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Cliff Racer posted:

But, correct me if I'm wrong, thats not how radiation works.

Have an expert come in and certify that they are are officially back to pre-disaster level, problem solved.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Protocol 5 posted:

That kind of stuff is really funny because genetic analysis has shown that people in Japan today share a shitload of characteristics with the Chinese, Koreans, Ainu, Ryukyuans, and everyone else in the region. It's a surprisingly diverse profile for a country that was considered an isolated backwater for much of its recorded history. They're about as unique and special in a genetic sense as say the English.

Wasn't there an incident at the Bejing Olympics where the Emperor Himself said something like "Yeah my family is originally from Korea (like immigrated from there in 800 BC or so)" and Japanese TV went THIS NEVER HAPPENED?

What surprises me is that this kind of Japanese exceptionalism can survive in the age of the Internet. At least the more ridiculous claims (4 seasons) could be cleared up with 30 seconds on Google. Hell, even in the process of just watching international news you should pick up that sometimes the EU ministers meet in the snow and sometimes the US president has a press conference in the sunshine, and vice versa about 6 months apart! Do Japanese news only show domestic news or something?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Samurai Sanders posted:

You know it's political because when they visit it's an official visit as a politician, not as a private citizen. They are very clear about that. Koizumi sometimes waffled on that back in the day but as far as I know that's not the way it is anymore.

edit: just like any country, conservative politicians have to show that they don't give a poo poo about anyone else in the world in order to get brownie points with their psycho nationalist backers. This is how they do it in Japan. One of the ways anyway, whaling "research" is another.

I have yet to hear from a conservative German politician who visited the grave of Rudolf Hess, though.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Deceitful Penguin posted:


East Germany went through de-nazificiation, because whatever they Soviets mighta been they never were once to show mercy to loving fascists. West Germany made nazis loving Chancellors.


Denazification in East Germany was more about nationalizing factories (because they were used in the war effort, you see) than it was about finding Nazis. Those had all fled to the west, as far as the East German government was concerned, and in any event were only a small minority who misled the majority of the German people. The never really worked through Germany's past, which is precisely why the east has become such a stronghold for neonazi movements.

That said, I'd love to see pictures from Yasukuni shrine, if only for the rise in blood pressure.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
What do they say? "WWII 1941-1945 runner-ups"?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Gleri posted:



Amending Article 9, which seems to be the most prominent, would be pretty meaningless. Well, the political symbolism of it runs deep, but from a pure legal perspective it seems meaningless. Japan has an army right now, a rather large one in fact. Also, Article 9 is largely cosmetic anyway, so far as I am aware, given that it is not enforceable. At least, I don't think that there has been a successful lawsuit against the government under Article 9. If you can't sue under something, it is legally meaningless; "no right without a remedy". And, I don't think a court would or really could enforce Article 9. I don't think if Japan were to build a nuclear bomb, for instance, that a court would enjoin the construction or seize the bomb or anything. I can't find any instances of that. There's a bunch of people here who know modern Japanese history way better than I do, though.


Well, I know literally nothing about the Japanese Supreme Court, but I would guess that parliament would have to make a "LAW for establishing an Army/Navy/Air Force/Mecha Squadron". That law could then be put before the Supreme Court, which should strike it down as a violation of Article 9. That it hasn't done so about the SDF does not mean that it couldn't.

The article that forbids Germany from waging wars of aggression has no provision for its enforcement either, but the Government is required by oath and law to uphold the constitution, and can be sued if they fail to do so. I would assume that similar constructs exist in Japan.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
I think a key point is that there is no such thing as "China says". They aren't a hive mind, and their bureaucracy has grown large enough that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are a bunch of people in the Foreign Ministry going :wtf: because they were literally never informed that the People's daily would be running this kind of article.

So basically don't make this out to be Chinese policy just yet.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Reverend Cheddar posted:

If you can stand to read the guy's Twitter -- all two hundred or whatever tweets he vomited out about this (and keep in mind you can say a lot more in Japanese with 140 characters than you can in English) -- he actually did say that this was his reasoning. Other countries used prostitutes, don't just harp on Japan!!1 I was mistranslated! They didn't listen to me in context! Foreign media rrrarrblaattghhrhrhffffff.
It's not just Japan that likes calling other kettles black; this kind of circular argument gets tossed about in Asia a lot from what I can see as a means to justify their actions. In any stretch of logical reasoning this would be knocked down but we're also dealing with a school system that actively discourages critical thinking. :downs:

Wouldn't the concept of Guilt vs. Shame play into it? Bascially the idea that in the west people are taught that they have an internal set of morals and if they violate it, they did wrong even if no one ever knows about it. In Japan/Asia people are taught that they have to behave as others expect it from them. So if others (the US in this case) apparently don't care about sex slaves (because they use them themselves) then it isn't wrong.

That said, I recently learned that the Wehrmacht used forced prostitution in the East and had its own share of massrapes, and there is literally nothing being taught about it. So much for being the shining example of dealing with our past, I guess...

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
So, I assume everyone responsible made a really heartfelt apology and that was the end of it?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Reverend Cheddar posted:

Consider there is also like no jingoism whatsoever about WWII on TV (which is still a major force over here -- things like Hulu haven't really picked up here, something which I'm sure is similar to the RIAJ years back and selling music online), it's almost always sad memoirs about young boys going off to war who never came back or how getting atomic bombed sucks. They might not know everything they did in the war, but they're well aware that war is terrible and they want none of it.

Do those things mention the fact that japan, you know, started the war? Because painting yourself the victim when you are the aggressor is still whitewashing.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Kenishi posted:

Creating a larger standing army and building a stronger defense industry are all things Abe/the LDP would like to see happen with the rewriting of the constitution. But he has no supermajority now so he won't be able to pull it off.

If I recall correctly, and I could be wrong. Abe wanted to put to vote a change to the current law so they can pass amendments to the constitution with a simple majority. It stands out to me because when I read about this in the news I remember thinking to me self that it was weird that to amend the constitution you need a supermajority, but the law that says you need this is something that can be changed a mere simple majority vote (or maybe it does need a supermajority vote to pass? Not sure.)

Either way, they are trying to be a bit sneaky in the process I think.

One would assume that the procedures to change the constitution would be put down in the constitution itself, no?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

ozza posted:

Geothermal power plants in onsens that were once tourist meccas seems like a great idea to me. Beside the power generation, it would give local economies at least a minor shot in the arm. God knows there are enough shuttered up Bubble-era getaways in the boondocks to choose from. I can't imagine there are enough residents left in a lot of them to object.

65% of Iceland's power generation is geothermal - what's stopping Japan?

Well, Iceland is on the other end of the world and the price of undersea powercables is enormous.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Samurai Sanders posted:

I forgot, there's definitely one area that they oppose the West on: the UN's position on universal human rights. We're for it, they're against it, since it would mean they would have to treat women and Koreans like human beings.

edit: I think our racists and sexists don't vocally oppose it simply because they don't know or care what it is, so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

Freep always treats everything from the UN as an attempt to impose the homosexual muslim agenda 21 on are country. And they are very sceptical of the idea of universal human rights for anyone they don't like (Muslims, gays, and gay Muslims in particular).

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Lucy Heartfilia posted:



Politics should take this into account. German conservatives for example are doing it wrong, because they want German work to be cheap and at the same time they want woman to stay at home and fight against places where kids stay while their parents are working. And then they are wondering why people don't have kids.


Which is why the CDU has created a program to provide a kindergarten place for every child. How dastardly of them. Not to say that they don't follow an outdated idea of family, but the situation is not as easy as "more money = more children".

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Lucy Heartfilia posted:



So it needs to be easier to work and have kids at the same time. And the jobs need to be secure. If you can't even be sure to still work at the same company and the same place for the next couple of years, kids become very unattractive.



That is the core issue. Having a well-paying job means nothing if the company doesn't exist anymore after a year. Germans are pretty risk averse, not least because our great- and great-grandparents lost everything twice, and they raised their children based on that perception. It would be interesting to know if WWII had a similar effect on the Japanese society, or if keeping the status quo has been a long standing tradition there (the Meji restauration says no).

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

ocrumsprug posted:

She did reject it twice. My wife made it sound like the royal family pressured the government, who quietly told her to accept the proposal as she no longer had any career prospects. And since she was barred from government service by law after she married, she really didn't.

After she married a prince or after she married, period? Because if its the latter...:stare:

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Samurai Sanders posted:

A new study puts Japan (and Korea) basically at the bottom of the developed world for women's equality in economics opportunity, and have been going steadily downward. Because I hate myself I went over to 2ch to see what they were saying and one of the first posts was "well women don't WANT to work more so what can we do?"

Japan...sometimes I think you're beyond help in this area.

Its the strangest thing, you give these women who have university degrees very simple tasks like making tea and filing documents and they don't want to work hard. Completely inexplicable.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Grand Fromage posted:

Burberry men are flashers specifically, but it's the same idea. My middle school girls say they hate summer because of the burberry men that show up and show them their dicks regularly throughout the season.

Jesus Christ what

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Samurai Sanders posted:

Wow, their supreme court is some weak sauce.

What do you propose? To declare the results invalid means to topple the government and to dissolve the parliament, which is a pretty big deal and goes a little beyond just "Checks and Balances". In an ideal world, declaring a result unconstitutional spurs parliament to change the election laws. Except in this situation they didn't, because what are you going to do, drag us from the chamber :smugdog:?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Grand Fromage posted:

The Stalin thing is bizarre. I wonder how many of those people are aware of things like the Holodomor though. Actually I don't want to know, I'd rather just assume they don't instead of the idea of huge numbers of Russians being totally cool with that.

To throw in another, the US is pretty good about acknowledging what we did to the Native Americans these days but we had a long period of not talking about it there.

I guess the larger question is why Germany responded so differently and why we have such trouble doing something as basic as admitting facts. And would Germany have done the same thing if it weren't for denazification and the like?

Denazification was a bit of a joke, to be perfectly honest. It took until the 60ies before the not-quite-worst of the Nazis were purged from office, and even then some remained. i think what mattered more is that Germany always considered itself a western nation and desperately wanted to be acknowledged as an equal by the "older" nation states (France and Britain first among them). Becoming, for the lack of a better term, "barbaric" between 1933 and 1945 forced a brutal shift in thinking in Germany. You can't claim to be a civilized, well cultured western nation and herd people into gas chambers. Yes, other nation states have done horrible, horrible things (France and Britain probably first among them), but most German historians would still argue that the Holocaust has a special quality all of its own. It wasn't "a" genocide, it was "the" Genocide. The only way to possibly be considered civilized after that is to make amends where you can, get on your knees and beg for mercy.

I think one thing the Japanese atrocities lack is the premeditation of the Holocaust. At least to some degree, there is some truth to the claim that any atrocity was the work of junior officers or enlisted soldiers, not government policy (government policy was "We don't give a poo poo about you, you lost and should be grateful that we even acknowledge your existence").

Come to think of it, Bismarck is still relatively popular in Germany, even though he started three wars and ordered brutal crackdowns on Poles and Socialists. I guess at least he won the wars he started.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Sheep posted:

No.


Then you get into the whole Unit 7-whatever live-action vivisectioning people and all that, something that can't really take place on that sort of scale without some manner of approval from the top.

There is still a difference between how the Japanese Army acted in China and the Einsatzgruppen of the SS in Russia.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Sheep posted:

No one is disputing that, but what you said - that the atrocities were "the work of junior officers or enlisted soldiers, not government policy" is patently false in a great number of cases ranging from sexual slavery to forced labor to execution of POWs, the list goes on and on.

Read what I wrote, I never claimed that all Japanese atrocities were the product of rogue soldiers.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

dilbertschalter posted:

Pretty much every other regime (maybe not the Khmer Rouge) comes off favorably by comparison to Nazi Germany, so saying that Japan's crimes weren't as bad doesn't seem like a fruitful angle of attack.

Its not about how bad it was, it is about how their atrocities relate to the political culture of the country. Germany made a predetermined effort to murder entire ethnic groups. It is at least debatable whether the Japanese did the same, or if they just didn't care in any way, shape, or form if entire ethnic groups died because of their policies. this is especially important since the original question was why Germany handled the aftermath of its war crimes relatively well while Japan did not.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Wibbleman posted:

Well to be honest TEPCO wanted to decommission the plant 15 years ago now, but weren't allowed to build the replacement so they had to keep it running (this is pretty much the main effect of anti-nuke movements).

I'm sure the TEPCO executives lost a lot of sleep over their paid off powerplant that kept making them money.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Lemmi Caution posted:

Politicians hold on to the issue of Dokdo because the prefecture that it supposedly belongs to cares intensely about it and Japanese politics are intensely local. You can apply this to just about every issue that makes you wonder why Japan holds on when even its own people don't seem to feel strongly about the issue: whaling, the dolphin hunt, territorial disputes, etc. There is a tiny, improportionately powerful rural community that cares deeply about it and will vote based on that one thing.

So basically all of Japan is Florida.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Zo posted:

The right wing fanatics are not satisfied with just quietly whitewashing history at home anymore apparently, and have leveled up to obnoxiously aggressive whitewashing. When the japanese government pulls moves like this it really makes all their apologies seem like big jokes. "Yes we are very sorry about this thing that never happened".

"And even if it did happen we shouldn't talk about it because it might make people feel bad."

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Ernie Muppari posted:

I can't see how anyone who has need of them can fail to notice that that sort of bullshit actually makes the people you're supposedly apologizing to more angry.

That's the point. Now they can go "well we apologized, I guess there is just no pleasing those some people."

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

computer parts posted:

I liked that Phoenix Wright was apparently based slightly on actual Japanese courtrooms, especially the whole "we're trying this innovative system where the Judge doesn't literally convict someone whenever they want, it's called a jury".

There are a bunch of countries that don't have the jury system without becoming police states like Japan.

I think there was a case a while ago where the police forced a confession out of someone they grabbed, and he was only released when the real criminal contacted the police and said "you got the wrong guy, but keep looking!" Seriously, the Japanese police is inept on a level that is almost unimaginable. They have low murder rates because apparently they treat a dead body found in a ditch as "unlawful dumping of a corpse" instead of murder.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Sheep posted:

I'll be damned if I can find it again, but someone in the LAN thread found an ad on like Yahoo! Jobs or something back in 2011 looking for people to work for a subcontractor doing cleanup at Fukushima Daiichi. No experience required, 1000 yen an hour, sign me ... up? No doubt they were pocketing all the extra government handouts to workers as well since that was apparently a thing that was (is?) quite common.

Wait, what? I know I heard the same thing back when Fukushima was still going on, that they were sending homeless and schoolchildren there to try and save the reactor. I called bullshit immediately because no one, not even the most corrupt company on the planet, would do that when the eyes of the world were on them. Nevermind that untrained personal would likely make it worse, so there is no incentive whatsoever to do it.

You're telling me that it was actually right?

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Reverend Cheddar posted:

Personally I like the campaign reminding people not to use firearms in public, as if Japan somehow had a problem with that in the first place.

Why do you think it's not a problem, baka gaijin?

ArchangeI fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Apr 8, 2014

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
Pretty sure the US doesn't export stealth technology as such. Interestingly enough, the Japanese are also buying the F-35. Either the Japanese government wants to hedge its bets (a wise decision where the F-35 is concerned) or it is just a make work scheme for their military-industrial complex.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

ookiimarukochan posted:

Probably because all the pachinko places that aren't owned by the Yakuza are owned by retired cops, and so the Diet don't want to antagonise them.

Japanese politicians unwilling to antagonize the elderly? How novel.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010
I'm fairly sure it will show that he was just completely powerless to stop anything done by the Imperial government, if he was even aware of it. For most of the time he worked tirelessly to end the war but was hampered at every turn by dastardly politicians who are now thankfully dead and can no longer tell their side of the story.

7c Nickel posted:

I do not expect Japan to make it to the 2020 Olympics without some serious poo poo going down. Japan keeps dumping money into the economy to keep it going, but it does so in a really lovely inefficient way due to vested interests. This might be tolerable if Japan's economy was still growing, but due to a lovely women/family unfriendly business culture and a xenophobic populace that prevent much immigration, the population is declining and with it any chance of growth. Combine this with the fact that the populace is aging and it gets even worse. In 20 years, the main export of Japan might be horrifying news stories about the impoverished elderly being eaten by wild dogs while scavenging for food.

The really mindboggling thing is how the entire country just seems to collectively shrug their shoulders like there is nothing they can do. Everyone can see that there are massive problems, but apparently you just have to keep doing business as usual and things will work out.

ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Mr. Fix It posted:

There are no term limits for the position of prime minister. None for President of the LDP either, afaik.

Do I just remember wrong or was there a time in the 2000s when Japan replaced their prime minister every year, almost to the day? What happened there?

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ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010

Chomskyan posted:

So today the cabinet approved a new plan in which the 6-month remarriage wait time for women will be reduced to 100 days. Also if a woman can get proof from a doctor saying she's not pregnant then she can remarry before the 100 days are over. Also the only reason even this much has been done is because it was literally forced on the current administration by a supreme court ruling.

So is there a remarriage waiting time for men in Japan?

No, no, let me guess...

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