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It's fascinating because there were some major Japanese innovations for a while, and even today compared to say Korea, there's a lot more creativity going on in Japan. I'd love to read a good book about it that doesn't end up as nationalist trash or orientalist trash or kawaii desu nippon trash or whatever.
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Nov 11, 2013 05:13
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Bloodnose posted:So why was Japan so successful in the 80s? All I ever hear is something about 'consensus-based decision making', which doesn't seem to have gone away. That's what I'm curious about. From Japanese workplace culture you'd expect stagnation, but they had a good few decades of being a powerhouse. What was different then?
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Nov 11, 2013 05:17
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Kenishi posted:Its kind of funny you mention this because one of my friends posted a nice link on FB the other day. This happens in Korea. I live in Ulsan, which is a large town which was literally created by Hyundai and is a huge manufacturing center for them and many other companies. So I know a lot of engineers here. The Korean firms hire westerners as a matter of course to do a lot of the design/troubleshooting/problem solving kinds of things. The Korean project managers straight up say Korean engineers are very good at building things but are terrible at coming up with ideas or doing any creative work, so they hire westerners to do that and the Koreans handle the manufacturing. I think fundamentally it's an education issue. I work as a teacher here and I get to see the education system beat out every bit of creativity, drive, and self-motivation from the kids to turn them into memorization boxes. It's no surprise they take that into their adult working lives.
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Nov 11, 2013 13:20
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The emphasis on appearance over results doesn't help either. People spend a ton of time at work so they look busy and diligent, but aren't actually doing anything. My old coworkers were amazed how much work I would get done in a single day, and I was not exactly busting my balls. Long work hours but very low productivity. It's not like people are any different. The education, the leadership style (or lack thereof), and the unproductive work environment combined are a recipe for stagnation.
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Nov 11, 2013 13:57
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I doubt it'd go beyond Chapter 1: country X invented thing Y first, and the resulting screaming match.
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Dec 10, 2013 02:54
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shitthatdidnthappen.txt: The Xia Dynasty edition
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Dec 10, 2013 03:01
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I've always been impressed by how straightforward and not nationalistic the museums I've visited in Japan are (other than the Yasukuni Shrine's comedy war museum but that is a special case) compared to other ones in Asia. The Beijing museum wasn't too bad, the Seoul one is a mix of decent and utter bullshit, and there's one in my city that claims Korean civilization invented whaling 12,000 years ago among other things. Whereas the main history museum in Tokyo has a whole exhibition room straight up saying how Koreans brought Buddhism and centralized government/civilization to the disorganized tribes in Japan. I've read that the denial textbooks are basically like evolution being taken out of Kansas textbooks or whatever, the national government has no role in textbook choices and the lovely ones are used by very few places. Anyone know if that is true?
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Dec 27, 2013 14:28
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True enough. Not to apologize for them, but I also think Japan gets a bit of unfair poo poo for it because it's World War 2, and Germany has been so good about acknowledging what they did and trying to make things right. But no one points out that Germany is an outlier; most countries that have done large scale horrific poo poo are much more like Japan and just don't talk about it much. Soviet Union under Stalin, China with Mao, Turkey with the Armenian Genocide, Belgium in the Congo, et cetera. Japan is special because it has a bunch of other countries constantly rubbing their noses in it. Which, if we were being intelligent and objective about it, is the reason why Japan should look at Germany and do that instead of what they've been doing. Maybe they're being targeted about it, but ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. Confronting it might.
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Dec 27, 2013 15:12
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Forums Terrorist posted:The Russians talk about what Stalin did all the time. They just think it was great. Likewise with China. When your history is a bunch of "we were backwards and got the poo poo stomped out of us" someone who changes it to "we modernized, beat off a superior foe and lots of people died but gently caress 'em WORLD POWER WOO" is obviously going to get a kind treatment in popular memory. I think that counts as whitewashing. I've had a whole lot of Chinese students who had literally no clue about Mao being responsible for anybody dying. Not denial, they just had never heard of it before.
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Dec 27, 2013 16:13
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Forums Terrorist posted:Eh, fair enough. I'm not as familiar with China, but I do know that Stalin is mad popular in Russia. Second most popular Russian leader, behind Brezhnev. The Stalin thing is bizarre. I wonder how many of those people are aware of things like the Holodomor though. Actually I don't want to know, I'd rather just assume they don't instead of the idea of huge numbers of Russians being totally cool with that. To throw in another, the US is pretty good about acknowledging what we did to the Native Americans these days but we had a long period of not talking about it there. I guess the larger question is why Germany responded so differently and why we have such trouble doing something as basic as admitting facts. And would Germany have done the same thing if it weren't for denazification and the like? Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 16:21
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Zo posted:Well I never said Japan's the only dumb country in general. Not really. There is a coast guard station there as a fig leaf and to massively pollute the water.
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Jan 21, 2014 11:26
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Japan paid reparations, which were immediately taken by the dictator of South Korea, Park Chung-hee (father of the current president), and used to build factories and such. There's an ongoing lawsuit against the government by the people who should've gotten the money, as they got nothing. There have also been dozens of official apologies. I have yet to meet a Korean who is aware of any of this, and even when I've shown the apologies to otherwise rational Korean friends when this topic came up, they just brushed it off and continued to assert there were no apologies and Japan/Japanese people are inherently evil. Not everyone believes that of course, but it is depressingly common. It's deeply ingrained, I work in schools here and have seen first hand the way kids are taught to hate Japan from early childhood on. I moved to Korea a couple weeks before the Sendai earthquake so one of my earliest experiences was watching third graders celebrating Japan's destruction and writing the death toll on the board with glee. Japan has not made as much of an effort as they could have, but Korea has made zero effort. I believe at some point the Japanese government asked the Chinese government what they could do to make amends and the Chinese told them there was literally nothing they could ever do that would make China forgive them. In that situation I don't know what anyone expects but Japan to say well gently caress off then.
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Jan 28, 2014 15:14
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ArchangeI posted:So basically all of Japan is Florida. Similar demographics and less meth.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:30
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yep. To keep their pilots awake during WW2, right? Everybody in WW2 was stuffing their pilots with amphetamines, from my understanding. And the Germans at least gave them to infantry too.
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Jan 29, 2014 13:58
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That's my entire stance on it. People have to be willing to forgive at some point or we will be fighting the same war over and over until there's no one left to fight it. I don't want Asia to have to go through what Europe did to stop it.
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Feb 2, 2014 15:50
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:That's pretty sad. You can't fight problems you don't even acknowledge. New thread title right here.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:51
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I thought China wasn't willing to go to the ICJ over it because then they would be opening the door to having all their bullshit claims in the South China Sea arbitrated away from them the same way.
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Apr 1, 2014 13:54
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punk rebel ecks posted:Can you guys tell me anything about he Brazilian Japanese community? How are they? How do native Japanese see them? Tainted by foreignness, not real Japanese. There was a thing to bring them back to Japan a while ago because they wouldn't really be immigrants, they're Japanese and all. Now the Japanese government pays them to leave and go back to Brazil.
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May 11, 2014 03:44
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The Japanese government was in for a shock when it turned out that people from Brazil are Brazilian, not Japanese.
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May 11, 2014 04:16
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ozza posted:Guess the Zainichi just need some of that precious Japanese blood. What if they got transfusions? That wouldn't work, foreigner blood is thick and can't mix with Japanese blood. Different species and all. 
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May 11, 2014 05:20
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Samurai Sanders posted:eventually shrivel away. This doesn't involve doing anything so I think we'll go with this one.
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May 11, 2014 05:24
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icantfindaname posted:This is somewhat unrelated, but how similar are Japan, South Korea and China culturally? I know China is complicated by it being less developed, and the government, but I have heard Korea at least has pretty much the same problems as Japan? China's demographics are already hosed up thanks to the one child policy, right? I'm assuming, then, that in 50 (30?) years China will be in the exact same spot? Culturally, I find Koreans and Chinese much more similar. There's a lot of Japanese influence in Korea, but from living in Korea and visiting the other two (and having Chinese/Japanese friends living here in Korea tell me their thoughts) I found the similarities stronger with China. China is such a big diverse thing that it's hard to say. Beijing, at least, was a lot like Korea. There's strong Japanese influence in Korea though, and as far as like national development, Korea copies Japan constantly. Economically/developmentally Korea is Japan but 20-30 years behind. I hope they will look at Japan's mistakes and avoid them, but I suspect they won't. Copying Japan was a good idea, Japan developed well and Korea did it too, but only to a point. There's a ton of cultural stuff in Korea that is straight up Japanese (Korean pop culture in particular is almost entirely taken from Japan), but most Koreans will claim they invented it and are legitimately unaware it's from Japan. I've literally had a student wearing Hello Kitty clothes with anime notebooks eating Pocky and drinking Pocari Sweat tell me how everything Japanese is evil with zero self-awareness. A lot of the bad things are shared with China, like the general filth and spitting and shoving and driving. Japanese culture is more diverse than people give it credit for too, though. I've only been to Tokyo and Osaka, but the people in those two cities are very different. Tokyo felt like a totally other thing than Korea or China, while Osakans seemed much more like Koreans. Much friendlier, more talkative. Chinese people generally remind me more of Americans than anything else. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 06:58 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 06:55
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Sheep posted:Korea at least gets that they're terrible at designing things and brings in foreigners to do their innovation (Samsung does this a lot, I hear - there are towns that have huge Norwegian expat communities because those dudes are basically running Samsung's cell phone design) instead of Galapagosing it up like Japan. Hyundai does this too, I knew a few engineers who worked at Hyundai Motors and Hyundai Heavy Industries. They bring in westerners to design things and solve the problems that crop up, and Korean engineers do the implementation.
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Oct 14, 2014 14:32
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After living in China and Korea the idea of Japanese people being rude in public is hilarious. I know it happens anywhere but it's still funny.
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Feb 24, 2015 14:16
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Other than the boner right wing nationalists have for military stuff, I would guess Japan is (rightfully) scared of China and thinks they need to beef up their armed forces to maintain the current situation, where Japan's forces are superior enough that the Chinese probably won't do anything more than bluster.
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Jul 20, 2015 12:05
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Tesseraction posted:Unless Japan has credible plans to construct a militia of Gundams I don't think any amount of firepower will put them on equal footing with a country like China... as to the problem with behind the lines stuff I can see the problem, but personally I'd just say 'well, let's not be involved in active warzones at all.' Do you think China's just going to walk 200 million people across the ocean? Japan's military is vastly better equipped and trained, China's air force and navy would be on the bottom before they got anywhere near Japan. Keeping the status quo would be just fine for Japan, but to do that they have to build up since China is trying to make their military not a joke while also becoming increasingly belligerent and threatening more or less all of their neighbors.
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Jul 20, 2015 12:31
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Tesseraction posted:Yeah but that's my point... China has nothing to gain from attacking Japan. Why worry about a nation that won't attack you nor has the capability to subjugate you? They can't be sure China won't attack them. The level of vitriol and hatred China spews at Japan is extreme, and China's shown a willingness to play highly aggressive brinkmanship games with its neighbors. China's military leadership also isn't exactly under the control of the central government and may not behave rationally. China probably won't attack Japan but are you going to stake national security on probably, especially when building up the military is a job creator in a stagnant economy as well as popular, and doubly so with the nationalists that support your party's leadership? There's not much downside for Abe domestically. The only real problem is it makes Korea and China screech, but they've spent the last 70 years screeching about literally anything Japan does so at this point who gives a gently caress what they think? Plus annoying them also wins points with nationalists. China's military is generally considered a joke, yes. The PLA of the 50s was pretty tough but it's atrophied. Vietnam beat China in the 70s in like three weeks and that's the last time they've had any significant fight. Most analysts I've read think the Chinese military is barely functional at best, but China is investing in it more now. World War 1 is a good case study in how to get a war between countries that are all acting rationally and none of whom really want to fight.
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Jul 20, 2015 12:46
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Tesseraction posted:Uh, obviously this isn't the thread for this but WW1 happened precisely because Austria-Hungary wanted to go to war - look at the July Crisis and (Serbian) response to the July Ultimatum. We over here (Britain) were gagging to go to war. People were so sure we'd finish it by Christmas 1914 they were rushing to sign up and fight before it was too late. It was only by WW2 that Britain was more pragmatic and reticent to fight. Guess I need to read more. My impression was WW1's start was a brinksmanship situation, but that time nobody flinched so it exploded.
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Jul 20, 2015 13:44
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LimburgLimbo posted:In what situation and for what reason would Japan just start to shoot at countries The Japanese are inherently evil subhumans who will attack you with no warning, do you know? Japan very bad.
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Jul 20, 2015 17:07
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It's not hard to make arguments for changing it. Japan is the only country in the world (I think) not allowed to have a military or engage in warfare because of laws created by an occupying nation, to punish them for things their ancestors did decades ago. Honestly it's a bizarre situation to begin with.
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Jul 20, 2015 17:15
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Tesseraction posted:Wait. What? I think I'm learning a lot more about what's going on over there from the past two pages of this thread then any of the news I've been reading. And here I thought all the drama was just in their cartoons... He is wrong, they have not done that. They have fired missiles into the Sea of Japan. None have crossed another country's land. Tesseraction posted:Probably, but then again Costa Rica decided to abolish its military anyway because "eh, we don't need it" - but then again they're in a mildly more secure part of the world. And that's by choice and could be reversed whenever they want. Japan didn't choose to disarm. It's understandable given the circumstances at the time but things have changed. It's definitely a thing for nationalists but I don't think you have to be a crazy right winger to see the reasoning.
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Jul 20, 2015 17:21
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Well that's weird. I searched since I didn't remember that and the only missile tests that came up were Sea of Japan ones.
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Jul 20, 2015 18:22
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A big flaming stink posted:uh I'm pretty sure that the japanese electorate overwhelmingly supports the pacifism clauses of their constitution. It's one of the biggest disconnects between voters and politicians in japan Yes, they do. I never said they don't? It doesn't mean that having the same military capabilities as every other country is a position solely for insane people.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:10
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Chomskyan posted:Do you think Abe's cabinet is right to try and put these bills through the Diet despite the opposition of the Japanese public and a near unanimous consensus among legal scholars that the bills are unconstitutional? I don't know enough about it to judge. How is changing the constitution unconstitutional? Is there no means for amending it? I think Abe is generally a moron/dickhole but in the particular instance of "Should Japan be allowed to use its military for military things" I don't see what the big problem is.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:29
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Chomskyan posted:There is an amendment process. It requires a 2/3rds vote from the Upper and Lower houses of the Diet, and then a majority of Japanese voters must approve it in a referendum. The Abe government is not amending the constitution, it is trying to pass a traditional bill which violates the constitution. Ah, okay. So he knows that there's no way it would pass that process. I am against leaders violating the laws. I don't think the idea of changing Article 9 is that weird but it should be done properly.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:42
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Sheep posted:if everyone stops being jerks to each other This is why it's depressing, it seems to be getting worse not better. I don't want a loving giant war in Asia over stupid rocks and nationalism. 
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Jul 21, 2015 12:59
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It also doesn't matter since the inside of the Earth will continue to be hot until the sun expands and heats up enough to scour the Earth of all life and drilling some holes for geothermal power will have not the tiniest effect on that
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Aug 16, 2015 04:47
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You mean like Japanese are angry the Chinese say they won? This year they're having a holiday for the 70th anniversary here in China, and it's hilarious since every announcement they call it China's victory over Japan. Just China, nobody else was involved the way they're wording it. Even the Koreans weren't claiming that for their 70th anniversary holiday.
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Aug 16, 2015 14:43
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China as Pyrrhic victory I could see an argument for. The US was the only unequivocal victor, the casualty figures are nothing to sneeze at but the US came out of the war better off in every other possible way and dominated economically for decades while the rest recovered, so.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:49
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It says they were storing compressed oxygen there. If that was leaking there's a lot of otherwise fairly safe stuff that is happy to burst into flames when the oxygen concentration increases enough. Seems like a much simpler explanation than an attack. That's also assuming the army is telling the truth that they weren't storing anything explosive there.
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Aug 24, 2015 09:08
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