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qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Chillmatic posted:

This thread's getting a bit anemic.


So how about a debate: Inciting incident-- should it go at the beginning of a novel or later on, after there's been time to get to know the setting/characters a bit?

I'm arguing with an editor right now about this; she's telling me that most stories should open with an inciting incident. But I really think only works for poo poo like detective stories or similar boring procedural crap. If you put your protagonist in danger right out the gate, the reader won't be that invested if anything actually happens to him/her, right?

Hell, it's hard for me to think of any stories offhand that straight-up open with the inciting incident, and the few times I've seen it just turn me off because it's "conflict" with no real stakes-- seeing as how I haven't read enough to care yet.

Thoughts?

I don't know about beginning a novel with the inciting incident but it should definitely begin with an inciting incident of some kind, even if it's small.

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qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Molly Bloom posted:

With a character driven work, I still try to follow Vonnegut's advice and start as close to the end as possible.

I'd just like to point out for the record that the piece of Vonnegut's advice that you're referring to is specifically for short stories.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
I hate it so much that in language, if enough stupid people are wrong and loud about it for long enough, they eventually become right.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Symptomless Coma posted:

Language change is great when it adds to our expressive power - when we have more terms to say exactly what we mean, and know we're going to be understood. Language change is bad when inaccuracies reduce our expressive power, or invert (pervert) it.

Yes, this sums up my position pretty well. I'm in favour of everything which makes unambiguous communication easier.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
I've got a villain character and he's getting up to give a dinner speech to his people. The speech needs to prove that he's done some bad things. But he's not a moustache-twirling cackling guy. He can't straight up say, "I did this terrible thing, and it hurt people, and I like that, ahahaha! Because I am a bad person." That's dumb.

I'm finding it hard to phrase this question, but what kind of things should he say? What phrases? He and his people found something incredibly valuable to the world at large, and have essentially stolen it for themselves, denying the rest of the world. This is obviously incredibly selfish but I'm having difficulty putting myself in the shoes of someone who'd do that and then declare it a huge success and just not care. The core phrase I've got at the moment is "We're protecting the world from itself", which I think is pretty strong. I mean, what does a Mafia boss say at a big meeting? In reality?

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Jeza posted:

Why would they care? For whose sake are they justifying their actions?

DivisionPost posted:

It sounds like you've just got a motivation problem.

sebmojo posted:

Have him give an honest and heartfelt explanation about why he is the good guy.

All of this is good, thanks. I obviously need to further into this character's "why" than I did.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
One thing I am sure of is that nobody can write a sentence for somebody else.

You can tell somebody what the problem is to any number of decimal places, but nobody can ever rewrite a story on someone else's behalf, because the words will simply not be correct for the original writer. At the end of the day, the original writer has to repair his or her own thing. Which is to say that the "what" can come from critics, but the "how" always must come from the writer.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
I find the present tense is great for writing fights and action.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Martello posted:

I have this idea that if you can't "just sit down and write" then you may not be a writer.

I suggest that not being able to just sit down and write is a problem more commonly had by writers than by any other group of people.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Hocus Pocus posted:

I think approaching a story from the mindset of what is the conflict, instead of what is the plot, will help me break of of my fairly conventional brainstorming. I've been reading a collection of Isaac Asimov stories and trying to think about what the conflict is in each one. In Day of the Hunters is the conflict simply the professor trying to convince the technicians he saw what wiped out the dinosaurs? Is it also an internal conflict of reluctance to tell them? Stories like Does a Bee Care? are clearer, but then in something like Silly Asses, a story where the Galactic keeper of records strikes Earth from a list of planets to join a federation because we haven't entered outer space, and test atomic weapons on our own service, is less clear. Its more like the creative presentation of an idea -- maybe I am thinking too strictly about what a short story is?

I wanted to ask the thread that if they think a short story must contain some kind of conflict, to what extent does it need to be the focal point to produce something satisfying for the reader?

I think some of Asimov's short stories just don't have a conventional conflict. They function much more like jokes, where all you're really given is a setup/hook which is compelling enough to get you to read to the end and find the resolution/punchline. Of course, many of them literally are just jokes.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Dr. Kloctopussy posted:

Read a bunch of books with car chase scenes in them and take notes, then write your own. NO PLAGARIZING.

Here's some books that have car chases in them, I think:
Drive by James Sallis (yeah, the basis of the movie) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/176378.Drive?from_search=true
Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell, the chase is in Part III, i'm pretty sure https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49628.Cloud_Atlas?from_search=true
Casino Royale by Ian Flemming (James Bond #1) I am mostly guessing that this has a car chase https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3758.Casino_Royale?from_search=true
A lot of other spy books, probably. Every James Bond movie has a car chase, so...the books might? Probably the Bourne books, I think? Didn't the movies have a car chase?
Anything marketed as a Thriller with a car on the cover.
Snow crash i'm too lazy to look it up on goodreads.
Any book with two cars going fast on the cover.
Novelizations of The Fast and The Furious series.
Here's a James Patterson book with a car on the cover, so probably: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13151.London_Bridges
There's also an entire sub-genre of race car driver romance: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8419429-the-chase?from_search=true

Here's a blog post that breaks down one possible way to structure a chase scene:
http://meggardiner.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/writing-chase-scenes/

So what you're actually saying is you've never read a car chase in a book, or written one?

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Benny the Snake posted:

Any tips on how to write a good car chase scene?

Here is an actual car chase which for various reasons I wrote in probably about 90 minutes altogether, with no editing or backtracking. I wrote it mainly to see if it was possible to write a car chase. You will see a bunch of stuff which should obviously be fixed (for one thing, do not just write out sound effects) but my point is that it is actually possible.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
Snow Crash also has one chapter end with the protagonist running out of a town with a bunch of angry people pursuing him, collects his motorbike, and the final line is "...and the rest of it is just a chase scene." Which is quite a neat way of doing it.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Grizzled Patriarch posted:

If you aren't happy with the end product you could always go back and change the tense up once the story itself is hammered out.

Gosh. You can do this, but I wouldn't wish the task on anybody. I find switching the tense of even a single page of text is very tiring and aggravating, and usually I blink and miss a few things anyway, requiring some very alert proof-reading. To the extent that, every now and then, I entertain the possibility of writing a computer program to perform tense switches for me.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
You can come up with six ideas that good any hour of the week.

Also, if your friends and acquaintances are writing semi-seriously themselves, so can they.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

crabrock posted:

OH I SEE DON'T GIVE ME ANY CREDIT FOR THAT AWESOME PROMPT

You're just the ideas, man.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009
2k words per day is perpetual NaNoWriMo mode!

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

CommissarMega posted:

Similarly, we want hard copy whenever we deal with files. That’s why the paperless office never came to be…

This is nonsense.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

FouRPlaY posted:

quote:

Never give your actors glasses, mugs, or cigarettes. Instead, make them act.

Works for characters too.

What does this actually entail, in text? An actor can fine-tune their facial expressions, body language and intonation to express all kinds of insanely subtle things. In text, it would be the simplest thing in the world to just explain directly that this is what the character is doing/feeling, and I do that sometimes, but it often feels laborious and expository.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

SurreptitiousMuffin posted:

Having a huge backstory is good, but not everything needs to go into the story. It's like an iceberg: only a small portion of the story actually hits the page. The rest goes on between the lines, and if you have all this extra information pre-written it will come across in the story without having to be directly stated.

For example, does the Lord of the Rings (a famously bloated series) include 300 pages of Frodo and Sam before the adventure even starts, starting from a loose acquaintanceship and eventually become an almost brotherly connection? No. Is it obvious from the way they speak to each other and act around each other? Yes. It's Show Don't Tell in a pretty undistilled form.

I'm not sure Lord of the Rings is the best example to cite here since it does, in fact, start with a full five chapters of tedious, expository world-building infodump/backstory.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

Benny the Snake posted:

Hey guys. Is there anybody here who's really passionate about geology and/or chemistry who could help me out? Normally I wouldn't ask, but I really, really think what I have has legs and I need to make sure the science checks out so I'd like a creative-minded science goon to help me out. Thanks!

For specialist questions like that I'd be more inclined to hunt for a chemistry/geology thread than this one.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:

man this isnt ev
en a haiku wtf
are you even trying

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qntm
Jun 17, 2009

ravenkult posted:

I hate it when a protagonist is a writer of any kind. Except maybe a journalist.

How about if they're a writer... with writers' block?

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