Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Stuporstar posted:

Bwahahaha! Holy poo poo, this is terrible. The first part detracts from Kermit the Frog entering the scene though. I'd tone down the first half and focus on that, because it's legit funny, wheras in the first bit the languange is maybe too unintentionally funny (depending on how gawdawful ridiculous your general tone is).

I think this is right. Just ditch the first sentence and you have a sex scene that sounds like it is supposed to be funny.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2012 01:07

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 00:27

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

I know I certainly would like to see the books others recommend to read. I would find that helpful, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

This is a good idea.

The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner: Written by Himself: With a detail of curious traditionary facts and other evidence by the editor by James Hogg. It is by turns hilarious and discomfiting. It was also one of the inspirations for The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde and importantly from a writing perspective, is one of the first known (if not the first) instances of the 'unreliable narrator' which makes it a direct ancestor of Pale Fire and House of Leaves among others.

That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis is a personal favourite of mine, as it has an excellent and accurate descriptions of modern evil, and also is a textbook example of the right way to do deus ex machina.

Finally Moby Dick. Because if you like the English language, you should read it:

quote:

I heard old Ahab mutter, "Here someone thrusts these cards into these old hands of mine; swears that I must play them, and no others." And drat me Ahab, but thou actest right; live in the game, and die it!

quote:

The Master and Margarita, by Bulgakov

Thanks for this, I hadn't heard of it before and just looked it up. Looks really good.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2012 13:38

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Martello posted:

I hated Moby Dick in college. Maybe I better try reading it again, but I think it might just be awful. So many pages about whales.

The first time I read it, I just skipped/skimmed the chapters about the whales. I still liked it a lot. One of the only books I felt compelled to copy whole paragraphs from, just to re-write the language. My advice would be to read it again and just skip the stuff that is not related directly to the characters. Then read that poo poo the next time you read it. Then get an annotated version, and it gets even better. Here's another quote I think you'll like. This is just after Ishmael has drafted his will:

"Now then, thought I, unconsciously rolling up the sleeves of my frock, here goes for a cool, collected dive at death and destruction, and the devil fetch the hindmost." If that's not :black101:

I don't know what is.

Anyway, enough about Moby Dick. Benagain's recommendation is right on. Great books, and practically the definition of clean writing. I don't think Westlake ever tells us what a character is feeling, he just conveys it through actions.

@Molly Bloom: Great to see another Justified Sinner fan. You totally won.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2012 17:40

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Yeah, I should say I am talking about the chapters that are solely about whale taxonomy; not that you should start glazing whenever somebody mentions a whale.

Overwined, I support that idea.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2012 18:09

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

SurreptitiousMuffin posted:

Would it be alright to ask a recommended reading list from you guys? I've been trying to write fantasy and I keep tripping up, then I realised it's because I haven't read enough. I've read:

* Almost everything Terry Pratchett has written
* The Lord of the Rings trilogy
* The Hobbit
* The first two books of ASoFaI

While I know most TP stuff back-to-back (he was my favourite author when I was a teenager), his style of fantasy is a bit left-field to base yourself on without coming off as an imitator.

What's good reading? Particularly stuff that's available cheap in ebook format.

I suggest you start working your way through this thread:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3345499&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

There is some questionable stuff in there, but a lot of good stuff as well. Just make sure you read for a few pages after each recommendation to get a full sense of what the book is about.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2012 01:23

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Overwined posted:

Yeah that article was a good read and it's definitely along the lines I've been thinking recently. Someone over on AW asked "How do I know what my characters are thinking?" In the past I'd go "huh" and think about it for awhile then spew some poo poo about how you have to live with them and let them speak to you etc etc etc.

But we need to acknowledge that everything we do as writers is a construct created from our minds out of whole cloth. The plot doesn't tell you where to go; you tell it. The characters don't tell you what to say; you make them say what you want. You don't reproduce reality in your work; you create it, even if you are writing "realistic" fiction.

Now, there's a deeper conversation here that what you write probably always has to be referential to reality at the least. However, I take the main thesis of this article to be "you don't really know what you know" or at least not in the way you think you know it. By trying to convey what you know you are tranfering those (often flawed) lenses onto the page. If you want to lead the reader as well as yourself to a more perfect clarity, you necessarily have to break the bubble you're in.

I generally agree with this, but I think it goes against what he was saying that "stories aren't about things, they are things." Which is something that I don't buy. Sure some stories are just experiences, but others are clearly about something, and those are often my most favourite stories. Will Self, for example, is amazing satirist, and his stories are like laser guided missiles in terms of being "about something."

# ¿ Sep 30, 2012 01:42

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Molly Bloom posted:

That was my thought- it's better to write them and hopefully write them well but I'm a bit at sea at the moment having read what's out there. But there's a lot out there that has made me second guess myself.

Currently, I'm working on a Native American character (it fits the area, I've had some contact with the area and the culture but not enough to be an expert). So I went exploring and started looking for NA opinions on white people writing Native characters after reading about 'RaceFail09'. On one hand, there's the fact that minority characters are vastly under-represented. On the other hand, what I've been finding suggests that creating a character that will meet with any approval is extremely difficult.

I'm just writing her as a person. I mean, it's how I look at people. But then I find very serious people saying 'the text should say that this is a stereotypical statue of a wooden Indian to let readers know that we don't look like that.'

Tony Hillerman is a white guy who wrote a lot of books about Native Americans (Navajo nation in particular) and was very successful. AFAIK, he was critically accepted by the Navajo and the general populace. Maybe check out a few of his books.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2012 13:53

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Chillmatic posted:

Hell, it's hard for me to think of any stories offhand that straight-up open with the inciting incident, and the few times I've seen it just turn me off because it's "conflict" with no real stakes-- seeing as how I haven't read enough to care yet.

Thoughts?

quote:

As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a monstrous vermin

One of the best opening lines ever. And the rest of the book is fairly boring in terms of actual things happening, but you are squicked out and sucked in from that sentence onward.

quote:

Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.

Basically "I decided to get on a boat." You know something good is going to happen eventually.

So it depends on your incident. Is the incident good enough to hook me for the whole book? Then open with it. Is promising the incident enough to hook me until you get there? Then make me wait.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2013 17:10

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

SurreptitiousMuffin posted:

It's not that they don't have them, it's that you don't, as a writer, sit down and say "THIS IS THE MESSAGE I'M WRITING ABOUT." You write a story, and the way you see the world colours the themes and messages. Phillip K. Dick didn't sit down at his desk and say "I'm going to write stories about doing drugs and how the man is out to get you,", he did a lot of drugs, thought the man was out to get him, and wrote stories.

Any approach where you criticize what is in people's mind while they write is never going to apply across the board. You don't think Orwell had a message in mind when he wrote Animal Farm? Clearly some writers do have themes in mind while they write, and others just find them in the act of writing.

To go back to the Cyborg story, my actual advice would be to put the story down and wait for your mind to give you the answer while you're doing something else.

But: thought exercises that might help:

1) Character study of cyborg or daughter--who are they? how did they get there? Answer those and you probably get an answer to the end of the story
2) Examine yourself: What made you want to write about this in the first place? For most people with first world problems, a cyborg with a crap job is a metaphor that resonates.
3) Make the story more exciting: Add some sex, violence or drugs. That will usually kick start a plot.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2013 14:26

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Mike Works posted:

Heroes Die is a good recommendation for action/fighting scenes. The author's a big martial artist and it shows in his writing.

Everyone is suggesting fantasy stuff for fight scenes, but I suggest that if you want to read a good fight scene you should stop reading nerdy stuff for nerds.

Try some detective fiction or noir:

John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee books. All of these are awesome and you should read them all anyway. There's usually at least one great fight/action scene.

Charlie Huston's Henry Thompson trilogy is about a guy who wins a lot of fights by being ruthless and lucky as opposed to good. It's also awesome.

Robert B. Parker was a boxer, his main character is a boxer, he knows how to write a punch up. Any of the first 8 or so Spenser books are good. They start to get worse around the 8th book or so--definitely don't read A Catskill Eagle or anything after it. God Save The Child has a 6 page fistfight in it which is excellent. However, it also contains a some theories about homosexuality that were very current in 1974 (did you know if your dad is a wuss, it can make you gay? It's not true!)

# ¿ Feb 24, 2014 15:24

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

3Romeo posted:

A bunch of interesting stuff

What did you think about the big mid-cut scene in the original Bioshock? I recall it as one of the few videogame narratives that actually shook me, because of its meta commentary on what I, the player, was doing in video games generally. I say this as someone who always chooses the 'good' narrative in games, but it still was quite affecting. To me, the meta effect on the player is the promise of video games, and that's what a good video game writer will be looking to do; I agree it doesn't help much with prose writing.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2014 17:34

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

3Romeo posted:

It depends on what your criteria are.

It was absolutely brilliant. The story used the medium to sell the message in the only way the message could be sold. (By which I mean, that twist would have no meaning if you're watching it or reading it since it's a commentary on player interaction.) But then the game does nothing with that idea. It just reverts back to FPS tropes. The final fight is straight out of Doom 2.

Yeah, the final fight was disappointing. I think the point was supposed to be that your choices (about the little girls) were supposed to be the only thing you were allowed to choose and thus create an actual poignant ending, since it turns out you did have some agency after all. However, they wimped out and basically created two different 'ever after' endings. The game could've made its point if your choices regarding the little girls actually did impact what happened to you as a player. (i.e. didn't save them? Your heartlessness means you auto lose the big fight! Or did save them? Your lack of ruthlessness means you auto lose the big fight!) Of course nerds everywhere would've tanked the sales of the game, but it would've stood as an actual work of art.

3Romeo posted:

VVV
This is a legitimate question, and I don't mean for it to come off snarky: Can you recommend any newer fantasy that dodges most of those traits and has thematic and emotional depth? Because I'd really like to read it and maybe change my viewpoint.

I don't think you need newer fantasy for that:

Try these by John Crowley:

The Deep, Doubleday (1975)
Beasts, Doubleday (1976)
Engine Summer, Doubleday (1979)
Little, Big, Bantam (1981)

Or this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_for_the_morning_glory (written in '96).

edit: grammar, hurr.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2014 18:25

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

But rules are in service of the story. Even if they're unspoken in the story itself, I'm sure that the author has some kind of of idea what their protagonists and antagonists can do in the world. Rules that people have to follow shape them, and make them work with the tools they have. I think that can lead to better results than writing "suddenly, Bob could fly" out of nowhere on page 215, when up until now, Bob has been a perfectly ordinary plumber.

Actually that would be a classic piece of magical realism, and if it serves the story, then who cares? Read The Fortress of Solitude to see what I'm talking about.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2014 17:28

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 00:27

Seldom Posts: Jul 4, 2010; Grimey Drawer

Here are some good (and bad) examples of people trying to write outside of their comfort zones by writing 'otherized' characters : http://writocracy.com/thunderdome/?week=3

quote:

Check Your Cis Privilege in Swaziland

Noir detective stories set in off-the-beaten-path locales, on this planet. Mild cyberpunk allowed, nothing too crazy. Except for sebmojo, no cyberpunk for you. No able-bodied straight male Caucasian American characters are allowed anywhere in the story. All characters must come from one or more specific groups which are underrepresented in literature. If the writer chooses to write about a straight white American guy in a wheelchair, the experience of being chair-bound better come through authentically. Points accrue the further away you get from your own cultural group, which you must specify for full points. Extra points for "recombocultural" protagonists.

For me, this was the first time I tried to write a trans character and it was set in a country I knew nothing about to boot. I was DQ'd for length (and I had a plot hole) but it was a really excellent exercise.

I would suggest reading through the stories and seeing what works and what doesn't. And try to write some vignettes about the characters before you go and work on a novel.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2014 13:46

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