Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Screaming Idiot posted:

I just checked the word count for my work, and yup, 633572 words in all. And that's only the .wps file I keep the main stories in -- I'm not even counting the short stories, extra material, and cut material I liked but couldn't fit in.

I... I think I might have a problem.

I would cut off a leg to have this problem, get this poo poo published!

# ¿ Dec 15, 2014 17:32

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 07:15

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Man, if you've written five books then you've already improved in some small way at least. Take the first page of your first book and the first page of your most recent story and compare them. You'll see how different they are.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2014 18:18

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Uh, well. Why can't you just have "droid" for the degrading phrase and have the upper class androids treated like regular humans?

# ¿ Dec 25, 2014 08:40

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I think if you really want to pursue it you should drop the capitalized first letter. You don't see racial slurs capitalized in the real world so it's jarring to see here.

In order to really understand things like class and racial divides you would have more luck studying institutionalized racism across the world. Apartheid would be a good primer. Once you've wallowed in the nastiness you'll realize that racism isn't about the word, it's more like the word is an expression of the racism. Divides are more than just name calling, it's embedded in the culture, sometimes even the architecture (like the separation of bathrooms, waiting rooms, etc for "coloreds" vs "whites.")

If you really want to emphasis how lower class androids are treated then you need to work out the behaviors and laws and cultural attitudes and then implement them organically. Fictional slurs can always be made up later.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2014 01:23

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

World building is fun, making up history is fun. But it's not what your story should be about, it should just be kind of...there, informing a couple things.

I mean, look at David Eddings novels. Elenia is the world he writes about but at the end of the day the Church Knights are just regular army guys and they wouldn't be out of place in a modern novel. The world building informs some things but not every little detail.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2014 03:42

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Also look for prompts that have starting sentences. Build off those sentences. Even if it's only for a three line paragraph. Something is better than nothing.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2015 17:26

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

So you would in fact not be retelling Beowulf at all since you're now excising the most valuable elements of Beowulf that separates the poem from other literature. You would in fact be rehashing The Legend of Zelda. Complete with wise men.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2015 20:30

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

newtestleper posted:

I don't think this is necessarily fair. It is possible to have a retelling of a story that remains stylistically faithful to the source while significantly differing in plot. I don't think you should listen to people telling you that this is a bad idea, especially if it's a thunderdome entry.

Some of my worst entries have been stories where I stepped outside my comfort zone, and while they were abysmal things I learned a huge amount from them. I have also stepped outside my comfort zone and written things I was happy with and learned from that, too.

I think you should try it out, cast a harshly critical eye over it, get feedback, and consider whether it was a worthy endeavour. If anything I would be more worried about making sure your portrayal of cultures/classes you're not part of is sensitive.

The actual story pitch he made sounds interesting and there's nothing wrong if he wants to write it. Hell, I'd read it. But if he wants to do Beowulf then he should just do Beowulf instead of making noises about "keeping the underlying story structure" when the underlying story structure of Beowulf is as common as dirt, and used in many stories that we consume today, fantasy or not.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2015 20:58

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

change my name posted:

I know people have posted huge do's and don'ts lists for Sci-Fi and fantasy in here before, and they were great (and very much appreciated), but has anyone come across anything similar for urban fantasy specifically?

One good rule of thumb: if Laurell K Hamilton thought it was a good idea, don't do it!

# ¿ Sep 27, 2015 19:46

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Tyrannosaurus posted:

For the record, I would be interested in reading people's actual methods.

First off my writing has improved a lot since I read this blog post: http://thisblogisaploy.blogspot.com/2011/06/how-i-went-from-writing-2000-words-day.html?m=1

For those who don't click it's a published author describing the three-step process to getting lots of words down:

1) know exactly what you're going to write. If you're mired in a scene then stop fighting it, get out a paper and a pencil, and brainstorm what should happen during that scene. Then follow the directions you decide on.

2) Keep track of when you're the most prolific. Observe your own habits and record your output during various times of day. Then figure out when your most prolific window of time is. Write during those times. Kill someone to do it if you must. (Don't actually do that.) (But yes do that.)

3) Be excited about what you're going to write. If it bores you then it bores your audience and it must go. If your bridging scene is lame then the audience can tell. Chuck it and make a new one.

This doesn't require you to be an outliner either. You just have to apply the first step in little bursts so you can get over roadblocks quickly. If you can churn out lots of words by the seat of your pants, do that.

E: personally I like outlining because it lets me play with events and develop themes so I can try to set down a unified whole.

HIJK fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Sep 30, 2015

# ¿ Sep 30, 2015 05:52

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I'm going to print out everything Klocto posts and tape it to my writing wall.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2015 20:02

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Varicelli posted:

That's why I'm trying to explain that it isn't really a short story, and I'm not trying to avoid.. ugh...

Forget it. I don't know what I'm doing. Now I'm wasting both all your, and my own time.

Thanks, to those who commented.

A better exercise would be to write a short story that condenses your novel. Like, if I have an idea about two ladies surviving a zombie apocalypse with a theme on motherhood, then I could write a short story about...two moms surviving the zombie apocalypse.

Could this stretch to a full novel? Probably! A short story is a good way to test run the idea though. It only needs a beginning, a middle, and an end.

The idea is that a short story is totally self contained. People expand their shorts into novels all the time, Ray Bradbury did that with Fahrenheit 451. But the first thing he did was write a tiny plot.

E: I think you're reaching too far too soon. You don't understand how to structure a story, your characters probably don't have distinct voices, and since you've never done this before then you probably don't have the stamina to write chapter after chapter.

This is okay. It just means you're a beginner. It's okay to be a beginner.

Start small. Don't reach for a novel first. Prove to yourself that you can complete a full story. Even if it's only a few sentences long.

HIJK fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 29, 2015

# ¿ Oct 29, 2015 17:48

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

klapman posted:

Yeah you know what, you're right, gently caress this garbage i'm just gonna write a lovely chapter and get on with it. If there can be any semblance of a decent chapter eight that's good the gently caress enough.

You build up to writing good stuff by writing out bad stuff first. Since no one is going to see your first draft it doesn't matter if it's poo poo or not. When you finish the book then you can go back to chapter 7 and you'll have a much better idea about what needs to be changed to make it fit in better with the novel. I bet a lot will change for your book between now and the end of it.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2015 19:29

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

klapman posted:

It is done, and the beast known as Chapter Seven is slain. Definitely still looking forward to going back and tightening it up, but this time I managed to keep from derailing the theme in an insanely stupid way, and didn't leave any strange plot holes. I know i've got to write the garbage first, but when I go bad it's not just boring, it's a wild departure from everything that's happened, and I just can't build further chapters off of that. I'm expecting to run into a lot more chapter sevens in this thing, but honestly the idea of just "gently caress it just stop worrying about it and put in a couple hours and see what happens" is really helpful. Sometimes it's not some ingenious idea or flash of inspiration, sometimes you just have to sit there and do something.

I'm glad I moved on from just short stories, it means I have to actually deal with poo poo like this instead of just shelving it indefinitely when I don't feel a perfect storm blowing my way. It's a lot more fulfilling, honestly.

I'm legit proud of you, actually finishing stuff is incredibly tough. Salvaging the chapter enough to keep it from producing plotholes is a great achievment too. :unsmith:

The holy grail of all writing advice is just Butt In Chair. Once we have stuff to work with then the rest of the nittygritty comes into play but until then...

# ¿ Dec 4, 2015 20:27

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

NiffStipples posted:

I personally don't write (or read) fantasy, but in my time of researching "Genre" and publication requirements, fantasy was usually given a little more leniency in word count since there's a lot of culture and lore to establish.

What I did was, I got out a notebook and for each chapter, gave an exact reason why I was writing that chapter. After that, I went back and reread only the longest paragraphs in every chapter and write a note on how this keeps the plot moving forward. In every paragraph, if I droned on about the color of the sky or how redundant my character's feelings were, I'd sum it up, cut the remaining 90%, find a way to make the paragraph completely unique, and then made sure it had at least one plot related device. If I couldn't make a paragraph unique, forward the plot, or setup something important for later, it didn't need to exist. I'm no Liberal Arts major and don't read as much as I'd like, but that's what I've been doing for 4 books now. Hope you can find a good method of doing this for your style of writing.

Also, I ended up killing my narrator when I realized he/she was a filthy, faced, neutral.

_{...I'm much better off now}

I can't decide if your methods are brilliant or nuts.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 09:45

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

angel opportunity posted:

I went from Thunderdome stories (like 2k words max) to trying a 50k+ word novel. It didn't work out so well! I think somewhere in between I may have done two or three longer short stories of something like 8,000 words. I didn't plan anything out very well. For the first novel attempt I did some detailed character sketches, but the plot--which is the loving CONFLICT--of my story was murky as hell. I made it to around 50,000 words before I realized the novel was really bad and was going nowhere. It would need a complete re-write to be anything worthwhile, etc. etc.

Starting in October, I've now written and published a 35k-word novella every month (October, November, and December). I may try to go to 50k words at some point, but a 35k-word novella is a really great stepping stone between shorts and novels. I work a full-time job and am able to get the final draft done in under 30 days, so it's also a project you can take on and finish in a reasonable amount of time. This is nice because it helps stop you from becoming one of those people who has been working on the same novel for three years.

The first novella I did, I just kind of shat it out. I ran out of plot about 20k words in and had to make up some dumb poo poo to fill the remaining 15k words.

Second novella, I did a basic outline that gave me a rough idea of what would happen. As I started writing, I realized what I planned out wasn't going to cut it, so I changed the last 33% of the story on the fly. The first novella got some negative reviews on Amazon pointing out plot inconsistencies and pacing issues, but the second novella only has positive reviews so far.

For the third one, I read http://www.amazon.com/Story-Engineering-Larry-Brooks/dp/1582979987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451630749&sr=8-1&keywords=story+engineering this book, and it really changed things for me. I normally hate when people gush about stuff like this, because you really have to be in the right state of mind to absorb a book like this (or Save the Cat, or whatever 'writing advice' you are reading). The main thing you must do is try to write and finish a novel(la) in a fixed amount of time. Do it, finish it, send it out to agents (or self pub it if you are self-pubbing). As soon as you send the book out to an agent (or if you are self-pubbing, as soon as you send it to your editor) start writing the next one the following day. Don't give yourself a month to read the book that tells you how to write, and don't spend ages thinking up an idea in your head before you write anything. Books on writing are not excuses to not write.

Assuming you actually are writing a lot and ready to take the advice, on my third novella I did the following according to Story Engineering structure:

1) Thought out my central conflict. I had to make sure it was good and solid and would drive everything else.
2) Thought out plot point 1, which is when the conflict/antagonist shows itself, and the protagonist pivots toward a reactive mode against the antagonist. This occurs at the 25% mark and triggers Act II.
3) Thought out the middle point. This is when the protagonist stops being reactive and pro-actively makes some change to fight back harder against the antagonistic force(s). 50% mark.
4) Thought out plot point 2, which is when the protagonist gets the last injection of information that puts him on the final push against the antagonistic force. 75% mark. If you're doing three-act structure, plot point II and the "mid-point" I'm mentioning kind of merge I think.

Once you have these things laid out, it's like "tent poles" or the scaffolding or something of what you are building. If you know you are doing 40k words, for instance, you have 10,000 words of intro until Plot Point 1. After the antagonist arrives, you have 10,000 more words of the protagonist reactively floundering against the antagonist until the mid-point. After the mid-point, you have 10,000 more words of the protagonist "on the attack" and beginning to face their inner demons etc. Finally you reach Plot Point 2, and all the inner demons are resolving, all the information and characters are present and introduced, and you have 10,000 more words of final resolution.

In addition to this, it's suggested you add a "pinch point" right in the middle of act 2 and act 3. Act 2 might mostly be the protagonist running away, but in the middle of it, the antagonistic force should do something or be shown somehow in a way that reminds the reader and/or the protagonist that it's an ANTAGONIST and is scary/loving things up/endangering people (whatever it's doing to be an antagonist). The same happens in the second pinch point in Act 3. There is also an optional "lull" that usually happens right after the second pinch point.

So all of this poo poo set up and planned out makes it really easy to write, believe it or not. When you are writing Act I, you're writing to set up and work toward Plot Point 1. After plot point 1, you're writing toward pinch point 1. After pinch point 1, you're writing toward the mid-point. This makes it pretty clear what you need to make happen, and it actually ends up giving you way more freedom to have fun with your writing when you sit down to write. You'd think having to plan all this would sap the fun completely out of everything, but it lets you just sit down and WRITE, and it lets you make the characters and everyone really breathe and develop.

Once I had all this plotted out, I considered just starting writing, but since I had so much planned already, I decided to do a scene-by-scene summary. I wrote out every scene in the book, and included in the scene summaries what crucial plot element the scene was revealing, and then how the ending of each scene (the book calls this a "cut and thrust") surprises the reader and makes them want to read right on to the next scene. I think I had around 30 scenes in total by the time I was done planning. It was very easy to write these out, because all the structuring I had already done made it pretty clear what each scene needed to accomplish. I struggled a bit at times trying to make stuff flow well or be logical, but this strain here made the actual writing much easier.

I started writing, and every time I sat down I just filled in the scenes as they were planned.

The characters came to life as I started writing, and I ended up not able to write every scene as planned. I also struggled getting every act to be the length it should have been. When I reached plot point 1, I was at something like six or seven thousand words instead of 8 or 9 thousand. I tried to correct a bit as I went, but if I had planned a bit better I could have avoided this.

The biggest issue I had was not planning act IV in enough detail ahead of time, and that showed when I went to write it. I just finished it at something like 4,000 words instead of 9,000, and then I stepped back, looked at the whole story, and thought of a pretty crucial two scenes that I needed to add into act IV to make the story gel, and to avoid readers saying, "why didn't this thing that was developed so much earlier not have any real payoff?"

I am 100% doing this strategy for my next book, and I'm expecting it to work even better this time around. I can hopefully have a better idea how long each scene will actually be while planning, and I won't skimp on act IV this time.

The crucial thing is that you will have to do this kind of planning either way. If you just write by the seat of your pants and manage to finish the story, you're going to have some SERIOUS work to do in your second (and third and fourth) drafts. You're going to lose entire scenes that took you days to write, and you'll have to write in new ones as well. It just is so much easier to plan ahead of time before you do all the writing. Planning should take you a few days at maximum though. If you find yourself two weeks deep in planning, then you're just using it as an excuse not to write, and you probably should "just loving write."

I'm going to copy and paste this to my writing tips folder, thanks.

# ¿ Jan 1, 2016 17:32

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Are there any other podcasts like Writing Excuses? I'm not too concernes about genre but anything about writing or publishind or editing would be cool.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 22:44

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

change my name posted:

The book riot podcast is good for publishing news/seeing what's going on in the industry, but it's not about *getting published*.

That's okay, I just like hearing about books. Thanks!

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 23:05

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I have a question re: the writing badly is essential thing. What do you do when you write the bad stuff but you know it isn't working and no amount of plotting, outlining, drafting, and "focusing on other scenes first" is fixing it...and then, out of the blue you get that thunderbolt idea that is totally different from anything you considered before but it finally ties the story together? How do you work with that?

The first part I don't object to but I've thrown out thousands of crap words because of this process. I'm just glad I'm a hobbyist and not on a deadline because it literally takes months.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2016 18:13

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

flerp posted:

I... can't really answer that because I don't write novels so most of the time my stories are short enough that lightning bolt leads to a story pretty much. Most of the time, I don't really even get that lightning bolt until I start writing. It's only after a couple words or sentences in that I find that if a story starts to grab me, it will. That's hard, of course, because I have to start writing with nothing and it doesn't work out a lot of the time, but it's my process and it works sometimes and that's just how it goes for me. I have had in some of my stories where I've written scenes with the full knowledge that they are going to be deleted. They're there because they have to be there for me and I keep writing just to get that boring nonsense out of my brain and to clear it up. It's mostly that your brain latches onto something quick and easy (and usually bad) which distracts from the actual good stuff, so I find it's great to just write the most obvious thing possible just to clear your head of it. Then, with your brain warmed up with thinking and the obvious poo poo out of the way, you can think of the good stuff. Hopefully. Then, I go back and look at the scenes I had written early that were bad and see if there's an off chance that it's good (it's probably not) then I delete it. I think for a novel, a good outline with all the plot threads written out will help out a lot if you treat the outline as something malleable. So then when you get that brilliant idea you go look at your outline and see where it can fit, what it does in the overall narrative, and see if it changes anything after/before. Of course, I don't write novels so this could all be useless . It sucks to throw poo poo out but I think it's a good thing, personally. Hell, I'd written about 15k words last month that are pretty much in the dumpster and that's ok.

Also, if you do get that inspiration, then go right for it. Don't finish whatever scene you're working on if you have something better that you want to write. It's a rare moment when you get those bursts of inspirations so you need to take advantage of them whenever. Just write it first and edit it later (this might actually be terrible advice for a novel since it would seem like a bunch of scenes stitched together, but whatever).

I agree, but I think waiting for inspiration is a bad way to go about it. I think of writing a lot like sports, where if you want to get better you have to go to practice even if you don't want to (and it's usually those days that you don't want to go and you go anyways that make you a much better athlete). If your goal is to become a good writer then you're gonna have to write, no way around it. If you're having like bad days with depression or other issues (you don't go to practice if you have a broken leg, to continue that metaphor), that's understandable but just saying "well, I'm just not in the mood for writing" is an excuse and you should try to write anyways.

You are definitely right and I do my best to put down whatever comes to me in that moment as soon as possible.

It's frustrating though when I've been trying to write this same lovely chapter for six months now, in stops and starts and fits and bursts, and I don't owe anyone anything and it'll go in my desk drawer at the end of the day probably, but goddammit why can't this opening scene just work?

# ¿ Mar 21, 2016 19:00

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I liked yWriter but there was so many windows and clicking that it became a pain in the rear end to use.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2016 16:51

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Megazver's point is well made though. If you want to do something then you should do it well. Writing cultures unlike your own is very difficult and it requires patience and a willingness to learn, as well as the wherewithal to admit that your stereotypes and prejudices might get in the way, and knowing that there are many things that you're just going to get flat out wrong at first.

But I think it's something worth doing if you want. You just have to sink a lot of time, effort and attention into it. And you have to realize that other people in other cultures...are people, and not exhibits or entertainment to be gawked at.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2016 01:06

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I have a brand new character that I'm holding like a tiny little doll and I keep thinking, "you're so cute, what am I going to do with you?"

What am I going to do with him?

# ¿ Apr 17, 2016 05:20

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

flerp posted:

youre going to write a story that uses that character

key word being WRITE

I have no plot just this dumb little dude that doesn't want to leave his hou--

Wait.

Ironic Twist posted:

Make a TVTropes page about him

Well obviously, how else can I decide if he's a Tsundere or a Yandere

# ¿ Apr 17, 2016 06:48

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Djeser posted:

Oh no I have a character but no story

Holy poo poo I love flowcharts like this. Thanks dude!

# ¿ Apr 17, 2016 21:26

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Maybe he's a bad writer because he's an absolute idiot.

# ¿ May 8, 2016 04:18

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Is there a thread on publishing/getting paid for fiction? I'd like to know more.

# ¿ May 20, 2016 22:22

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Yeah, opening up a word document or getting out a notebook and just putting down whatever comes into your head, even if it's a diary entry, can really help and gets your juices going. You can also look back on what you wrote and get ideas from that.

I like looking at news stories though. Headlines are really catchy and writing about current events, or your own spin on current events, is a nice exercise.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2016 22:11

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Scrivner is good for hyper-organizers that like having a digital filing system. It also creates a false sense of progress after you spend all day organizing ideas (but not writing.)

That's the only appeal I see.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2016 20:28

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

MockingQuantum posted:

That would be my big concern. I'm prone to that kind of poo poo in my day job, I feel like having a program that encourages that in my writing would be a step backwards.

IMO you can re-create the Scrivner experience with post-it notes/index cards and possibly a corkboard, if you're the kind of person that likes organizing ideas. Keeping it physically finite also stops you from going down the digital rabbit hole.

On the other hand if what you have works for you then just keep doing that. Scrivner is just a tool and it won't necessarily help you write more stuff.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2016 20:36

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

I think Stephen King said once that the key to horror is taking something and asking "how can I make this worse?" And then ratcheting that up over the course of the story. Carrie is about bullying, and Pet Semetary is about grief, and those are really mundane concepts really.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2016 00:52

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

How much do you guys think about genre when you're writing? Do you try to keep your story inside the trappings of a specific genre? Do you Just Write and try to apply a genre when finished?

# ¿ Aug 26, 2016 04:40

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

RedTonic posted:

What's your goal for the finished work?

To sell, of course! But in terms of content, my goal with my current project is a mystery that's creepy and frightening and some paranormal stuff.

Djeser posted:

I don't think much about genre when I'm writing. If I was approaching writing as a business (which is a valid way to approach it, don't get me wrong) then I might consciously try to categorize while I write. As is, I've never been too concerned with staying inside what people expect out of a genre. That can limit your possibility space, if you're beholden to a genre that doesn't want to include what you want to put into it.

Considering the onset of the self publishing age, I doubt genre matters that much, people search for what they like!

# ¿ Aug 27, 2016 01:11

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

RedTonic posted:

If you're trying to self-pub, knowing your genre and hitting the right notes matter.

This is not my experience so far. Genre defiance might work better with journals and mags, but it's a harder sell on self-pub and querying trad-pub. At least I'm finding that to be the case, ymmv.

anyway

Something I'll have to think about a lot. But I'll have to write something first in order to worry about it haha

# ¿ Aug 27, 2016 02:38

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

"I can't connect to the MC's race and gender" is such a useless comment, and says more about the person who rejected you than the work.

You could always try self publishing and get some feedback from that. Alternately, hit up a free beta reader or a friend or pay an editor to look it over?

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 20:07

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Naerasa posted:

I've had the book read in full by four people in one writing group, six people in a second writing group, two colleagues, one parent (other parent is suddenly claiming to be illiterate, thanks dad), and at least two agents now. Everybody's feedback has either been 'its fine as it is' or 'its good but its not for me'. As for editors, I don't really have a thousand bucks to throw around to get someone to read it over for me. Self-publishing is a dead end for me too, because my success in self-publishing will hinge as much on my marketing accumen as it will my writing. Seeing as I'm bad at interacting with people and hated the 5+ years I spent working in marketing, it's really not the route I want to go down. Plus, I'm not ready to give up on getting this book traditionally published yet, and most of the agencies I've been querying have said they don't accept material that's already been self-published. I don't know if that's bullshit or not, but I'd rather not risk my already-slim chances.

That does suck man

It may be that there's no room for it currently in the traditional market. You may not be able to sell it this year. But that doesn't mean you can't sell it next year if the queries don't pan out. Don't give up.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2016 01:14

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

My first thought is that sounds kinda boring and it really shouldn't be considering the sequence of events.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 23:42

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Naerasa posted:

Probably about as well as you can preserve Trainspotting without the heroin addiction, so you be the judge on that.

Edit: after giving it some thought, it seems like I have two separate problems: 1) the protagonist is unlikable, and 2) the protagonist is a heroin addict. Right now, id say 1) is an equal failing in both the query and the manuscript. If I want people to empathize with the mc and still keep her as an addict, I need to work twice as hard to make her likable and right now she's not even likable for someone sober. Fortunately, it's my query and my manuscript, so I can actually make those changes to fix that.

As for 2), it's a story about addiction. Yes, I could probably change it to something socially acceptable like alcohol, but the problem with doing something socially acceptable is that you then end up with another group of people who look at it and say 'lol alcoholism isn't a problem'. Like, for example, how everyone in gbs is an alcoholic and seems pretty goddamned good with it. Because heroin isn't socially acceptable, it's something everyone can look at and say 'this is a bad thing and her life cannot continue down this path', which is the point. At the end of the day, addiction stories shouldn't be about the drug itself, but why the person is using. If you use something like alcohol or pot - something everybody is cool with - then you run the risk of readers thinking not 'can she quit' but 'does she even need to?'

I'm not sure "likable" is what you should aim for. "Sympathetic" would work better. You don't necessarily need to like a protagonist to be sympathetic to them and empathize with their struggles. You can think "wow, I feel so sorry for this person" and "geez what a piece of poo poo" at the same time. So there's nothing wrong with having a heroin addict for a protagonist, but it does mean you have to work to make the audience care about them, and in the case of query letter, assure the agent that yes, there are many disparate elements here, but that it's still an engaging read.

For what it's worth I'd be interested in reading something like this, so your cause is not lost. It just requires polish.

And also:

The Saddest Rhino posted:

i think:

is the most immediate problem line, because it makes her prima facie unlikable just for being a junkie. Maybe you could make it clearer that she's combating the addiction, and she's trying as hard as she can to not get high. That way you at least get a protagonist who tries rather than "lol o well time 2 get high" like what is presented right now.

the sudden "bf has a stone" thing is also kinda jarring so maybe make the big focus the stone battles thing?

If all she has going in her life is her addiction, than that's also a hard sell because it makes her seem one dimensional. So when writing your query letter, make sure you communicate that she has a background and struggles that aren't totally about her addiction, like her mother's death suddenly bringing her back to reality, or her trying to go back to school, or something like that. That makes her more engaging and it gives her an arc to complete (maybe with the help of the paranormal advantages present in her life.)

HIJK fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Sep 10, 2016

# ¿ Sep 10, 2016 17:20

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

Are y'all ready to die for your art?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/books-novelist-runs-fiery-home-laptop-42123730

quote:

Avoiding a nasty real-life plot twist, a writer dashed past firefighters into a burning New Orleans house Thursday to rescue two completed novels stored on his laptop.

Though personally I feel a lot more concerned for the poor guy mentioned at the end:

quote:

Edderin Williams, 38, had enough time to grab his wallet and keys before rushing out of his apartment, one of four in the building, but was not able to save anything more. He does not have renter's insurance.

"I just don't know how I feel right now," Williams said. "I'm just gonna have to pick up the pieces and move on."

# ¿ Sep 17, 2016 05:33

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 07:15

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

anime was right posted:

how do yall get feedback on your books. i dont know any like writer groups or anything that would be willing to trade me reading their garbage for mine. do i just use like meetup.com or something or what

I found my writing group on Meet Up so it's at least worth checking out.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2016 20:11

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