|
On the talk of editing, my personal approach is something that Joe Hill uses. It's not for everyone obviously, but I found it worked for me. You essentially do about 5 drafts. 1st - This is fairly obvious. 2nd - Take a look at what you've written, edit, play around with it. Get it to a place where you think it's working. 3rd - Rewrite from scratch. A daunting task for most, but I found it comes along fairly quickly when you know what you're writing. The thing I found was that your good lines, dialogue etc come back to you, chances are if you read that 3rd draft compared to your first then you'll see the improvements. 4th & 5th - This is just editing more than anything. The 4th is used to make changes to your 3rd one. The 5th is basically your final one and should be the quickest. Like I said it's a rough guide and everyone is different. But this personally is what works for me. I like the idea of a page one rewrite, despite being scared of it at first because the writing just flows. My own personal advice is to not be afraid of change. If you really like something but it's not working then cut it. I had a few occasions where there was chapters or scenes that I loved, but for one reason or another it was stopping things in their tracks. I still have those discarded ideas though and there's no reason they can't be revisited elsewhere. What I find odd about my own writing is that my first drafts tend to be shorter than the others, with the second usually expanding on it. Is anyone else the same or does it tend to be "huge first draft, whittle it down afterwards"? DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jul 29, 2012 |
#
¿
Jul 29, 2012 17:46
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 2, 2024 20:24 |
|
|
Criticism! Don't be Kevin Smith. It's one of the most important things in your development as a writer. Anyone who doesn't listen to it is a fool, and anyone who's afraid of it is even more foolish. A writer is the worst judge of their own work, at least for a while. Once some time has passed you can read over something and think "Holy poo poo...this was bad", but at the start it's all to easy to sit there and love what you've written. Opening your work up to the eyes of others can be daunting, but remember one thing: It isn't personal. If there's flaws in anything I've written then I want to know it and more often than not criticism just reiterates what you should already know. Those 3 pages you've written describing someone's daily routine in far too much detail? It's boring to read, and sometimes you need to hear that. I hated the idea of showing my work to people precisely because I thought criticism was the worst thing in the world. No one wants to be told about the things they're doing wrong. But that eye is important to have. Wouldn't you like to know if your last act doesn't make sense to anyone but you? Of course you would. Of course some criticism is going to be bullshit. If someone responds with "Well I hate zombie stories and this is just another one so therefore it's poo poo" then I don't think they're worth listening to. If someone is questioning a plot point, or the motivation of a character or something that's down there on the page then absolutely consider what they're saying. In closing: Yay criticism.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2012 18:10
|
|
|
Baggy_Brad posted:Here's a new topic. If you've not read Joe Hill's '20th Century Ghosts' yet then you should. A lot of his stories either end with a simple act of finality or on a note of ambiguity. Here's the thing - it's whatever the story needs to be. You have a feel for the story, you know what it is. You know what those beats are, who those characters are and you know how it should end. If it ends on a note of ambiguity and it feels right to you then great. Not everyone is going to agree. I think a reader can see through it when someone just finishes a story because they don't know how. Some just respond negatively to ambiguity because they like it to be finalised. Plus, if people want to read more...then isn't that better?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2012 21:55
|
|
|
I still want to know how someone is disgusted by what they read. Maybe all they've read was that weird S&M Power Ranger fiction. So...How often do you guys give up on something you're writing? Or do you see it through to the end no matter what? I usually give something about a week or so and if it's not grabbing me then I abandon it. I think if it's simply not working then it's going to come across in the writing and if I find it a chore to write then surely it's going to be a chore to read. But then I know people who will finish no matter what and then make a judgement.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 24, 2012 13:07
|
|
|
This is more just an idle thought based on an idea I had a while ago but...If one were self-publishing, say on Kindle, then wouldn't it be REALLY easy to use a Pseudonym? I had been playing around with this idea of doing some YA for a while (Nothing serious or romantic, just fun Goosebumps type stuff) in addition to what I normally write and kind of wanted to keep the two separate. But say I wanted to publish them under the name of Rufus T Firefly for example then who's really to know? Note: This is all accounting for the fact that I go on to be a well regarded novelist. For character chat. Personally I teeter between whether I think someone needs a description or not. I generally keep it to a minimum because I don't think it's all that necessary but again it depends on the situation. At the moment I'm writing a sort of comic crime novel and the main character (A detective of course) does go in to some description of the people he meets. But that's 'his' choice instead of mine, if that makes sense. Otherwise, like if it's in third person, I would add minor detail just to sketch them out a little bit. So something like: "Portnoy wheezed as he slumped into his chair, the sturdy frame creaking beneath his weight." Ignore the general awfulness of the line but to me at least it says "This man is overweight" without needing to tell you exactly what his measurements are. On the other hand maybe it's just an old chair. The point is you can sketch an idea of someone without going say, the GRRM route of describing every little detail (Which I feel is a major issue among fantasy writers. I like that they have the imagination to have thought all this stuff through, but I don't need to read it all.) Find ways to inform the reader without 'telling' the reader. After a while it just feels like padding.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 27, 2013 15:02
|
|
|
It should be said that there's nothing wrong with 'overwriting', provided the writer is good at it. We've cited GRRM as an example of the form but he's just an example of someone doing it poorly. Likewise not everyone can write like Dashell Hammet. For me it all depends on how that detail is weaved in. The problem I find with someone like GRRM and generally fantasy authors is that it brings things to a standstill. It interrupts flow and it feels like they're setting the scene before they actually start the scene. So there's a couple of thousand words on how a banquet hall looks and then the next paragraph starts "Tyrion entered the room....". I think David Mitchell and David Foster Wallace are great examples of people who are more verbose but who actually make it work. Though I gather that mileage may vary on Wallace.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 28, 2013 20:54
|
|
|
Symptomless Coma posted:Why is it so much easier to see what's wrong with someone else's writing than your own? I'm pretty sure it can't just be arrogance? Distance is the most important thing in editing your own work. I have a friend who, as they call it, 'micro edits' as they go along which I can't really make sense of. For me the most important thing is to just get something out of my system and then leave it for a couple of days. Just let it go. Then when you come back to it it's amazing how much stuff you pick out, how many awkward turns of phrase you see, how you realise parts don't make sense. For me, printing it out helps. For the longest time I was reading it off the screen, but really taking the time to sit down and read it was a great help. The sooner you can admit to yourself that some of what you write is just crap the better. Then realise that you're not alone in that. No writer has ever just spun gold from the first attempt to the last, there comes with it the agonising and the self doubt. gently caress it, let it come, then write your way out of it.
|
|
#
¿
May 14, 2013 20:43
|
|
|
Liam Emsa posted:I have 2000 words so far, and in those 2000 words I have 4 chapters. Chapters in books tend to be like 10-30 pages, right? I guess I find myself switching gears too often and deciding to make a new chapter. I find a chapter is used as a good break, or a good transition. I think you have a pretty good instinct as to when a chapter is ending. You haven't just inserted those chapters arbitrarily right? The most vague answer is that a chapter is as long or as short as it needs to be.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2014 11:54
|
|
|
Djeser posted:October's coming up. Anyone know of sites with writing tips for horror stories? Or just the tips. Don't do this. I mean this as someone who has read tips and advice and all the rest of it instead of writing. I could show you two sites of tips and they'll be different, or contradict one another. It's because while there are some universal rules for writing (And I use the term loosely) so much of it depends on the writer and their method. You've probably read a lot of horror stories in your time right? Great. Now just go an write one. Remember, you're only getting a first draft down on the page. No one likes a first draft. It's messy, or it's too long or it's too short. But that's alright because you've got it down. If you feel like it's not working at all after that, then sure, look up some tips or solicit advice and it might move something in you to make some changes.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2014 11:58
|
|
|
Yeah Scrivener is great. It's also as in-depth as you want it to be. I don't use the cue-card function but I can see how it benefits people and I like breaking by manuscript up into chapters and then from there into individual scenes. It's pretty flexible with how you convert it afterwards as well. For a short story I can happily just use Word or write with longhand, but when I work on something bigger, and messier, then Scrivener has some great uses. As for horror. I don't think you can go wrong with the Stephen King approach. There's an art to drawing good characters and having them stumble into something bad. Even in his short stories, he creates people first. I think as much as the horror it's that which sticks out for me.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 26, 2014 11:07
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Scrivener's card function is helpful to me by making it easy to move the order of scenes around and see if they work better in a different way. I've found the card function handy for something I'm working on at the moment (It's a mystery story). There are scenes which work better coming earlier on so it's good to be able to move them around and see how it plays. In terms of slang, it's fine, so long as it's clear what they mean without you having to explain it. You don't want another character saying "What?" and then having it explained to them. You can have a character say they're going to use the bathroom or say they're using the kermode, point is the reader still gets the intent.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 28, 2014 12:26
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Let's talk about plotting and structure! Well now, it really depends on what you're writing. The writer of The Dresden Files wrote a blog about that very thing, where he likes to have a propulsive action that leads the story from the end of Act 2 and into Act 3. Once you've decided on what that is then it gives Act 2 a bit of drive. I'm currently writing a mystery novel, and so I've used that tip to help me. The thing is that it can be anything really. Mine is another death, which means that as well as continuing with my story I can pepper in these little moments that eventually lead to that final bit of Act 2. It's like its own little arc. It can be anything though. It can be a death, it can be a piece of key information, it can be anything which provides that little bit of drive. Once you know how that act ends, the lead up to it becomes easy. The actual climax of your story is good to put towards the end of the third act. If it's not, then anything that comes after better have a purpose to it. As with anything though, it depends on your particular story. If you're planning on writing a sequel, then it's forgiveable that the climax might come a little earlier, because you can spend the rest of your third act setting up what comes next. I've read novels where the story literally ends with the climax, which can be jarring but effective too. Plan, have a rough idea and then just write the drat thing. You can mould and shape it later on.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 17, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
Liam Emsa posted:I have a problem of being too concise, and I think it's causing my novel to be shorter than it should be. I feel like I've written a tremendous amount of plot, and I think I'm reaching the latter third of my story, but I'm only at 30,000 words. The problem there can be that if you're being fancy about simple things then the reader will notice this. You don't need to describe the way the sunlight falls at that time of day in the station, moreso if it's just a transitional scene. It seems to me more that you're looking for your style, or more appropriately a style that's applicable to the story you're telling. There's nothing wrong with being concise. If you want a lesson in how great concise writing can be look at anything by Dashell Hammet. You might find that in your editing/re-writing process that you start to rework sentences naturally, or that new scenes etc will come up and suddenly you'll be looking at 50,000 words. Some writers will skip "He got the train to Baltimore" entirely and just announce the characters arrival there instead. Just finish it first, and then you can get that red pen out and go to town on what you think does and doesn't work.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2015 13:53
|
|
|
Bug Bill Murray posted:Yeah no offense but you're not Ray Bradbury or Fitzgerald. If you're writing for yourself or self-publishing that's one thing, but if you're trying to get your novel published by a publisher then you stand a much better shot if your word count falls within the usual guidelines. Depending on genre, it's usually 70k-120k. I'll need to dig it up if I can but Stephen King writes about it in 'On Writing'. It's the difference between saying someone walked up to a house and describing the house. How did it look, how did it feel, was it falling apart, did the floorboards creek etc. One line just states a thing happening, the other sets a mood.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 20, 2015 13:36
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:I need advice. I decided to try writing a screenplay. I thought it was going pretty well and I was just a little under halfway done on the first draft, but to my great frustration, I lost all my work when the memory stick they were on had to be reformatted, and the only copies of the Trelby file and the Word document with the outline ended up irretrievably corrupted. This is a mixture of bad luck (they were only on the memory stick in the first place because I was switching files over to my new laptop) and my own carelessness (it's my own fault for not keeping a spare copy; I thought it'd be a routine switch from one machine to another so I did a Ctrl+X on the files instead of Ctrl+C). Everything I write auto-syncs to Googledrive. It's your friend. However, here's what you do. You write. What you'll find is that this stuff will come back to you very easily, and you'll probably write it in half the time it took you to do it originally. You have an idea of when you're going to be free to write, so you either make a mental note or a calender invite to say that ok at 7PM I'm going to sit down and write a scene, or a couple of pages. Then you make sure you do it. Not only have you taken that initial step but you'll end up writing more than you thought you would.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Oh, yeah, absolutely. As I said, my mistake was in assuming, "I'll just put it on a memory stick and port it over; nothing's ever gone wrong for me with a memory stick before!" and, well, I was wrong on that front. We've all been there. When I first started writing at a computer years ago I, like most people, had various things in various states of being not finished yet. Then one day I lost everything. A crappy power supply ruined the whole PC and it took me a long time to want to ever go back to it. I did eventually and though my stuff syncs with google drive, I periodically back stuff up to another drive just to be on the safe side. It's a good lesson though. There's a lot of setbacks in writing, the best thing you can do is roll with them.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 19, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
Superb Owls posted:I've come to a horrible realisation that having a scathing critique of your work is a lot more soothing than editing your own work yourself. Is there something wrong with me? I generally find that I'm a pretty good judge of what's wrong with what I write so I lean towards editing more than seeking critiques. I'm still fine with them and I show my work to people and I prefer to hear more what's wrong with it rather than what works, but generally after some time away I'm pretty good with making a list of what doesn't feel right. It's usually redundancy and repetition for me, but that's a habit I'm getting further and further away from. But like everything in writing, it's just down to what works for you.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 24, 2015 11:51
|
|
|
Benny the Snake posted:Thanks, I'll PM you when I get around to it, this week's TD is keeping me busy. You make it subtext of a conversation they're having. You have both characters acknowledge the suspicions without ever stating it. It's hard to tell you what to write without knowing more about it, but generally that's an effective way to do it.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 24, 2015 11:53
|
|
|
When it comes to word/time limits, I generally go for words rather than time. The goal is always 500 because the trick is that you'll get through that no trouble and often carry on. No one stops on 500, ever. But 500 is low enough that it's achievable and feels productive.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 16, 2015 13:25
|
|
|
angel opportunity posted:Hey Battuta, or anyone else who actually has stuff published. There's no real right answer but I think it's just knowing when something is done. I realised recently that I've been on the 'Final Draft' of something for a while but it feels like I'm just tinkering endlessly. Personally I things going on in different states, but that's because short stories generally lend themselves to that, and shorts help me take a break from editing the book I was working on. I think that when you get to the tinkering stage then you just need to admit that it's as done as it's going to get. Anything else really just stems from a fear of getting your work rejected. At least that's how it is for me.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 19, 2015 13:10
|
|
|
Let's talk drafts! Personally I play around depending on the story. If I feel like I have a good handle on something early on then my drafts usually just consist of revisions and editing until I feel like it's done (My final draft is usually reserved for clearing up mistakes and streamlining). If I feel something is getting muddled then I usually do a complete re-write on my third draft. It's surprisingly easy because you tend to retain most of it in your head, it just comes out clearer. Those lines you loved in the first/second drafts tend to come out again and anything that doesn't probably wasn't worth remembering anyway. I have a friend who edits as they go along which just seems incredibly time consuming to me, particularly when you're working on a first draft. So, what's everyone's method of choice?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 21, 2015 12:41
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 2, 2024 20:24 |
|
|
Screaming Idiot posted:Recently I picked up the Discworld series on audiobook, and I'm simply struck by how beautifully Pratchett ties his setting in with the story. He goes on for pages about the Discworld and its cosmology, and he manages to keep it somewhat interesting and -- this is what hooks me -- pertinent to the narrative. I'm reading Stephen King's 'Salem's Lot' for the first time and King does a very similar thing to the town in that it's very much a living entity. It's writing to a theme, so while he's actually describing the town and where these people live, he's also including the idea that it's very much part of the story. Not once does it feel like a distraction and it goes way beyond just trying to set a scene. It's kind of amazing what early King was able to do, the man was on fire during that time.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2015 13:28
|
|