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I took Rider's Edge and stalled mine a lot too. The instructor kept saying those bikes were cantankerous. He also mentioned the friction zone on those clutches change as they warm up. After the course I got a pretty cheap Vulcan 800 and haven't stalled it once.
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Aug 12, 2012 10:32
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Just got back from the second day of the class and passed the course. I did significantly better on the stalling today. I only stalled it once and it was because I forgot to downshift to first when I stopped between drills so when I went to take off it stalled. I got a 90 on the driving portion, largely because I took the swerve test at too low of a speed so I had to re-run it and I had to re-do the emergency stop because I had my fingers over the clutch during the run up. I got 100 on the written though, so that made me happy. Still not sure if and when I'll buy a bike but I'm glad to know that I can now. At the very least I can get my free rental out of it. I'm going to wait until October though because riding in the heat down here in FL is brutal.
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Aug 12, 2012 20:36
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Remember whenever you get on that next bike to practice a bit before you go. The friction zone is different on every bike you get on and as someone mentioned it will sometimes move as things heat up. I've never ridden one but drat near everyone tells me the clutches on the blasts are pretty horrid. On the Suzuki GZ250s and Yamaha eliminator 250s we have they are a right pain in the rear end to find neutral until the oil and everything is really warmed up. We have the question and the answer right in the same group of posts. Go into first as you come to a stop: you'll get more braking switching into first, if you need to get on the throttle again right away it'll be in gear already. Also if your at a light and forget to go all the way down you could stall it at the light. With most modern bikes not that big a deal, stall your kickstart bike at a light though and you'll hear some interesting verbiage until you get away.
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Aug 12, 2012 23:22
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Skreemer posted:Remember whenever you get on that next bike to practice a bit before you go. The friction zone is different on every bike you get on and as someone mentioned it will sometimes move as things heat up. I've never ridden one but drat near everyone tells me the clutches on the blasts are pretty horrid. On the Suzuki GZ250s and Yamaha eliminator 250s we have they are a right pain in the rear end to find neutral until the oil and everything is really warmed up. Yeah, I plan to do some laps around the parking lot to get a feel for the friction zone before actually going anywhere when I do rent one. The teacher said the nice thing about it is that they'll actually let you swap out for different bikes if you want to come back at different parts of the day and change it for another one, which could be nice to experience how different style bikes work. Ideally I'd want to rent one of the smaller sporsters if they have one available. The second gear thing was mostly just a lapse on my part. We were taught to downshift to first and leave it there when stopped so that you're ready to go. They teachers said most of the time that won't be a big issue but the Blasts will nearly always stall out if you try to take off in second.
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Aug 12, 2012 23:40
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JollyRancher posted:The instructors were adamant about shifting down into 1st when coming to a stop so you can accelerate out of problems. Intersections and cornering were highlighted as the two most dangerous places for motorcyclists. If you're not in 1st as soon as you roll to a stop you can't escape the Soccer Mom who will roll over you in her SUV at a stop light. Ah, fair enough. I know about the hanging out in first at a stop so you can make an escape thing (I used to stop in neutral, because my first bike had a really stiff clutch that sucked to hold in for long amounts of time), guess I didn't think of immediate danger once stopped.
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Aug 13, 2012 00:19
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Skreemer posted:On the Suzuki GZ250s and Yamaha eliminator 250s we have they are a right pain in the rear end to find neutral until the oil and everything is really warmed up. I had problems getting the Eliminators into Neutral. This makes me feel much better about struggling with that! Do most bikes have a N light? The Eliminators did which was helpful (although we were told not to rely on it)
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Aug 13, 2012 04:19
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JollyRancher posted:I had problems getting the Eliminators into Neutral. This makes me feel much better about struggling with that! Most bikes have either a green "N" or a green light that comes on. Though on all of the eliminators we have I've gotten good enough to be able to get the green light to come on and have the bike in second. Al to have the bike in neutral and have the green light off... (Don't rely on the light)
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Aug 13, 2012 06:02
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When putting the bike in neutral, keep a grip on the front brake and let the clutch out gently, so that if the neutral gear light is wrong you'll just stall the engine and not launch yourself off the bike.
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Aug 13, 2012 10:29
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JollyRancher posted:I had problems getting the Eliminators into Neutral. This makes me feel much better about struggling with that! I've never met a rider who didn't struggle at least a little with consistently finding neutral when starting out. I've been at this for 6 years now and it still takes me a few tries whenever I sit on an unfamiliar bike. Don't sweat it. Pompous Rhombus posted:Ah, fair enough. I know about the hanging out in first at a stop so you can make an escape thing (I used to stop in neutral, because my first bike had a really stiff clutch that sucked to hold in for long amounts of time), guess I didn't think of immediate danger once stopped. I don't think they mean keep it in first while sitting still in traffic, it's more likely meant for everything up to your full and complete stop. By the book this is the same for manual cars. When a vehicle is in motion you should have full control of it at all times. This is always true for automatics where you can instantly switch from brake to gas at any given moment, but for manual vehicles they need to be in a gear for that to have any effect. So the instructions for a riding course make perfect sense to stress downshifting all the way down to first for coming to stops. Doing this also leaves the engine ready to help out if you need to use it to help you stop faster than expected should the guy in front of you suddenly slam their brakes for any reason. It makes sense to be in gear even when completely stopped, but if holding the clutch in at all times causes your hand to cramp up then continuing to operate a bike with muscle fatigue is more dangerous than sitting stopped in neutral imo. I'm not intending to start a 'brakes are cheaper than clutches' debate please nobody go there. I'm just giving my opinion on where those instructions are coming from.
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Aug 13, 2012 20:15
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While we're talking about new skills. Is it normal for one direction of turning to be more natural in your "dominant" direction? I'm right handed, but I've noticed that when it comes to turning and balance going left is way more natural to me in a whole bunch of things. With ice and inline skating turning left has always felt more natural to me. At low speeds with simple turns it's not an issue, but when leaning and more weight is involved I'm way more comfortable going left than I am right, this goes for skating as well as riding. I can turn right just fine, but for some reason, it feels way more natural to turn left. Does anyone else notice this? I had no real problems in the course or the testing with going right, in fact most of the turns were to the right in the test, but it was in my head wondering why that is during the riding portion.
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Aug 13, 2012 21:55
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You're not alone. I'm right handed and feel more comfortable with turning/leaning/going left.
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Aug 13, 2012 21:57
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I've noticed the same thing, most right handed folks feel more comfortable turning left, and left handed folks are the opposite. Not true for everyone but it's definitely "a thing".
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Aug 15, 2012 02:50
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Yes this is so totally a thing. On normal radius turns it doesn't matter but doing tight u-turns and figure of eights I am better turning left than right, and I'm left-handed. I had problems with my throttle hand binding when twisted but I have mostly fixed this now.
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Aug 15, 2012 03:51
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If you drive on the right left turns are always wider, that could be a factor.
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Aug 16, 2012 04:05
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Oh god, the in class day is so incredibly boring. I've already picked out the three people in my class I suspect will drop out on the first range day. "You failed the temp test how many times? Oh..."
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Aug 16, 2012 04:16
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nsaP posted:If you drive on the right left turns are always wider, that could be a factor. You also usually have better visibility, particularly in the twisty stuff. And if you take it a little tight you lean into the next lane instead of eating a lamp post.
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Aug 16, 2012 04:33
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Even at the MSF going around in an oval, I was always more comfortable going counter-clockwise.
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Aug 16, 2012 04:40
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I'm the same. Practicing tight clutch/throttle control circles, I prefer to do them anticlockwise. I feel like I'm going to fall over if I do them clockwise. It's the weirdest sensation. On the road, I'm OK either way. It's primarily in the slow stuff where I'm "lefty loosey - righty tighty".
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Aug 16, 2012 07:03
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Looking at my tires the other day after a spirited joyride I could see that while my chicken strips were right up to the edge of the tire on the left side, there's like a centimeter of unused rubber on the right. So obviously I'm more comfortable leaning to the left, though had you asked me before I saw that I would have figured I was more comfortable on right hand turns. All things considered I guess it doesn't matter much though.
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Aug 16, 2012 18:54
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I'm aware that the mechanical principles are the same on a bicycle, but I don't remember ever pedaling a bike and being able to notice the effect of countersteering that you feel in motorcycles. Not to mention the big effect that throttle and brake have on the steering of the bike. In my experience, the biggest difference just comes from the rider:vehicle weight ratio. In either case you need to enter a turn by causing the vehicle to lean, obviously. On a motorcycle, you must create that lean consciously through countersteering; a bicycle is so much lighter than the rider that you tend to create the lean unconsciously, by subtly shifting your weight to the side. You definitely can experience actual countersteering on a bicycle if you make a conscious effort to push on the inside handlebar and react appropriately, but most of the time it's not necessary or noticeable. I think riding a bicycle would be a good stepping stone for a newbie to get in the groove of riding a small, statically unstable open-air vehicle, but I'd hesitate to draw any further comparisons. Skreemer posted:Most bikes have either a green "N" or a green light that comes on. Though on all of the eliminators we have I've gotten good enough to be able to get the green light to come on and have the bike in second. Al to have the bike in neutral and have the green light off... (Don't rely on the light) I got my neutral light working properly when I initially rebuilt my bike. After about 500 miles it quit working as well, and would only turn on at one specific sort of "sub-location" within the small range that is neutral, if that makes any sense. So I spent a long time pushing up and down at stop lights trying to get the light to go on when actually the gearbox was in neutral already. A few hundred miles later it stopped working at all, and then a few hundred miles after that it came back on and now constantly glows at about 50% brightness.  So yeah, I agree that once you get used to it, it's much easier to just recognize the feel and ignore the light entirely. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Aug 16, 2012 |
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Aug 16, 2012 21:29
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Had my final field day/test today. Observations/comments/stories of newbie riders:
Overall, a fun few days. Absolutely a must if you have no experience with motorcycles like myself. I had only previously ridden a few single-gear oddball dirtbikes and the like, and very limited experience with manual cars, but the course had me working the clutch without even thinking by the end of the first day. Also, thread title should be "Don't  at cones unless they are your exit point. Then, ride over them"
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Aug 18, 2012 05:27
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The U-turn box is probably the best way to judge one's ability to balance, clutch, throttle, and "look where you want to go" at low speed. That said it takes a LOT of extracurricular parking lot practice to do full lock turns. No newbie does it flawlessly on the BRC and the RiderCoaches know it.
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Aug 18, 2012 20:54
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Oh my god I'm terrible  I am terrible at motorcycling even by the standards of someone who is having trouble. I'm seriously shocked at how much trouble I had with virtually everything. I kept accidentally giving the bike gas on the throttle when doing the slalom or even turning and I loving ran my bike into some shrubs. I was fine and so was the bike, but it almost seemed like an exclamation point on the day of "Oh my god, I'm bad at this and I don't know if I'm ever going to be good at it." I don't know...
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Aug 19, 2012 03:23
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Grimes posted:Oh my god I'm terrible Dude, you're being way too hard on yourself. You're there to learn. No one gets on a bike and becomes an expert after a day on the course. And no one is an expert after passing the course, either. Far from it. As many have said before, passing the MSF qualifies you to ride around a parking lot. Learning to ride is a process that continues for a long, long time. Don't psych yourself out. If the instructors feel you're a basket case, they'll let you know. Unless that happens, just keep trying your best. Remember...this is supposed to be FUN. From my own experience, I dumped my bike at the MSF on the second day when I locked up my front brake riding in a straight line no less. I wasn't even doing an exercise! I was riding to get in line! After that, I was really hard on myself, like you're doing, for the rest of the day and thought to myself, even if I pass, I don't think I'm going to ride because I was really doubting myself. I considered just turning around and selling my bike. But I kept going at it and am a lot more comfortable riding and having so a lot of drat fun doing it. Every time I ride I'm a little more comfortable than before. After having my first bike for a little more than a month and 700 or so miles later, I'm having the time of my life. Do I still get nervous sometimes when riding? Sure, I do. Do I make mistakes? You bet. But I know I'm still learning and that it will take a long, long, long time before I ever consider myself good at riding a motorcycle. But I am always safe and ride within my limits and realize I'm gaining good experience. Just don't get discouraged. It would be a shame if you gave up before you have even really started.
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Aug 19, 2012 04:22
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Yeah, don't beat yourself up over it. Just pick yourself up, take a couple of deep breaths, and go again. You're not there to look good, you're there to learn stuff, and you'll probably learn a lot more by screwing up a couple of times. After riding to work all week I decided yeah, I'm comfortable on my own bike. Look ma, I can do freeways just fine! I got this poo poo yo! Then I bought some cheap cones from Target and started doing some slow speed drills after watching some moto gymkhana on youtube and holy poo poo, I'm terrible 
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Aug 19, 2012 08:17
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Haha the gymkhana dudes are insane. So much speed and precision. I always recommend that MSF grads buy cones and practice the drills for a couple days before beginning side streets. It's a good environment to learn your bike.
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Aug 19, 2012 14:50
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Grimes posted:Oh my god I'm terrible I loved the MSF course and passed with flying colors. A few weeks later I bought an SV650 and discovered while making laps around my apartment complex that I could barely control the thing. I nearly sideswiped a retaining wall while trying to avoid an oncoming car and generally felt like I had no idea what I was doing (I think because the SV was so much bigger and heavier than the MSF bikes). That night, I reviewed the MSF book and, over and over, visualized countersteering in my head until my brain turned it into a reflex. Got back on the bike the next day and I was fine. I spent the next few riding sessions practicing on some hilly sidestreets down the road from me. So don't get spooked. Re-read the materials, visualize the actual physical motion of controlling a bike until it becomes muscle memory. You just have to get past the fact that a large part of riding is either new, alien or outright counter-intuitive. Eventually, you'll get it.
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Aug 19, 2012 16:35
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Totally forgot about the temp license limitations and took the highway to class this morning, luckily it's dead empty at 6AM. Nothing like mesh textiles on a naked bike in 50 degree weather to start out a day of slowly puttering around a parking lot. The guy in front of me in line screwed up the first three parts of the test; shifted into neutral in the box and locked up his brake for the e-stop, not a pretty sight when you're waiting your turn. But I passed! The box really isn't hard at all, it's just way over hyped. Hell, I did it in second gear and didn't get any points taken off.
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Aug 20, 2012 01:05
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Grimes posted:Oh my god I'm terrible This is kind of a repeat from either the old MSF thread or the general questions one, but my instructor wanted us to take the slalom in 3rd and give it little spurts of throttle between each cone. I think the goon consensus was that was kinda weird, so I went back to doing it in second at a more or less constant speed.
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Aug 20, 2012 01:16
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Sorry if this post is lovely, I've been on a motorcycle for 10 hours doing exercises and testing so I'm not all there. I should clarify that I'm in Canada so I was doing something called the Motorcycle Skills Assessment. The actual course I was doing had exercises significantly harder than the actual MSA test. I passed the MSA test today but it was kind of close. (I can ride alone on the streets now during the day). While doing some shifting-up-shifting-down-uturn exercises my instructor pulled me aside and:  "Did you crash a motorcycle or bike at some point in your life? Are you doing this course to make someone else happy?" "No." "I just... I CAN'T get you to relax... You have a death-grip on the handlebars and your upper-body is extremely tense making it hard for you to steer or counterbalance, and you're squinting your eyes after you make a mistake. You need to relax."He was the reason I was anxious and tense. It wasn't fear of dropping the bike or crashing or speeding up or slowing down or shifting or braking, it was because he was staring at me and criticizing me constantly. I have pretty serious anxiety problems and OCD, and the more mistakes I made, the more he stared at me and got on my case, the worse I did. It wasn't his fault, obviously he's just doing his job as an instructor and he's good at it, but I really just can't learn and execute when I'm wound up like that. I was so shocked and disheartened with how I did the first day because I've always been really good at things requiring balance and coordination. I skateboarded and played hockey for years and I was great at them, and I was suddenly doing lovely at something right off the bat and quickly became the remedial member of the class and it hit me in the balls .That being said, I did all the actual lessons now and I got the piece of paper, and I've learned a shitload. Tomorrow I'm supposed to go for a road-ride with my class for a couple of hours but I'm really hesitant to do it because frankly I just don't want to. I know enough about myself to realize that I have to feel this stuff out on my own in an empty parking lot for a while now on my own bike, and take it to some easy back-roads near my house that I'm comfortable with and work on what I need to work on alone or with a friend. He feels confident enough to put me on the road in the class and I did a lot better near the end of the day, but I don't feel confident enough yet personally to do it.
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Aug 20, 2012 04:01
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Grimes posted:Words Congratulations on passing. If you don't feel comfortable with the road ride, then don't go. Stay within your limits. Riding is supposed to be fun, too. Do the parking lots and back roads like you said until you feel better about riding.
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Aug 20, 2012 04:21
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So, another Japan update: I previously took a few a la carte lessons at a smaller school to get the hang of the CB400, but now that I've passed the practical test down at the driving center, I now have a brief safety class to complete before they issue my endorsement. The school I'm taking it at is a lot closer to where I live, the course is also a lot bigger and the instructor is a shitload better than the crotchety old man with the thick rural accent I used to have. Today he put us on a simulator, pretty standard at Japanese schools from what I understand. I've played a motorcycle racing arcade game once, but this was leagues more realistic. It was pretty detailed; for example, the bike would get "buffeted" by the wind if you were passed by a semi, but the feedback was still kind of weird and I had a hard time getting used to it. After my first trial "lap" I was doing okay though, I managed pretty well on the city and expressway driving levels, although teacher said I ought to increase my speed a bit. Apparently he thought I was going to ride like a total maniac because I'm foreign, glad I didn't live up to that reputation, at least. The other thing about the simulator is it's basically every worst-case scenario at once, so it's kind of fun to predict how everything on the screen is trying to murder you. To be honest, I'd love to just dick around on one for an hour or two riding like a total knob. Be even sweeter if there was multiplayer or I worked some kind of drinking game into it. My classmates are a shy 38 year old woman and a scraggly looking dude who is a straight-up bosozoku-in-waiting. The only way he could have been more squiddy is if he had taken off his helmet and stood up on the seat while on the simulator, revving madly. Instructor seemed to realize he was a lost cause when he tried to outrun a car to merge onto the expressway, then came to a complete stop on the on-ramp when he couldn't get past the guy... when he sped up on the fog section and barely managed to shoot between a pair of immobile semi trucks, it barely got a reaction out of the teacher. I think this class is basically an "everybody passes" thing, which is kind of a shame because there are some real shitheads (see: bosozoku) on bikes in this country. The lady crashed twice; once she got T-boned by a homicidal car that just decided to make a "gently caress YOU" turn in front of her, the other time she came out of the tunnel before the bridge and was too far to the left, crosswind nailed her against the guardrail. Again, tester didn't seem to hold it against her. Come to think of it, I probably did the best out of the three of us, and that was my first time riding a sim. After that we went upstairs and watched two safety videos (no gore, surprisingly). The first one was on  LaserDisc , which I haven't seen since elementary school. It covered some basic scenarios that basically boiled down to "don't ride like a bell end and be aware of you/other driver's blind spots". The second one was about riding two-up, although new licensees aren't allowed a passenger their first year, and have to wait three years to take a passenger on the expressway. I swear I could see a poo poo-eating grin on the guy's face in the latter video whenever he did a maneuver that was intended to almost shake the passenger loose. The dumpy-looking woman on the back seemed terrified most of the time. After that we adjourned, there's some sort of practical element tomorrow and after that I should be able to go down to the driving center and get my license issued. Not really that excited anymore because my [redacted] contracting organization isn't letting me drive right now. It's not legal but they're basically banking on it being too much of a pain in the rear end for me to fight it. I'm guessing I might be on the road in another month or two. Pompous Rhombus fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 16:26
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Can anyone around the sf/bay area recommend an msf place they had a good experience with? I think I'm going to have a bit of trouble getting all the hand and foot operations in order properly. I mean, clutch, shift, throttle, brake, all in well timed sequence sounds difficult to me. Did anyone else have this problem? An observer fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 16:44
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Abe Froman posted:Stay within your limits. Riding is supposed to be fun,
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Aug 20, 2012 19:41
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An observer posted:I think I'm going to have a bit of trouble getting all the hand and foot operations in order properly. I mean, clutch, shift, throttle, brake, all in well timed sequence sounds difficult to me. Did anyone else have this problem? It's all muscle memory once you've been riding more than about 30 minutes. The MSF instructors and exercises, in my experience, are really good at introducing new things in very small steps, so you're only really conscious of adding one or two new actions at a time.
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Aug 20, 2012 19:48
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Yeah. If it's not fun, don't do it. It's not like dieting and weight training. I think if you take a break and give it some time, you'll start to feel differently about it and remember that it is fun, and you'll want to do it, and you can take it slowly from there.  ) but the actual riding was fun. When the instructor wasn't around I felt in control and confident on the bike, but as soon as he returned I tensed up.I don't know if it was my bike or what (Honda Nighthawk) but shifting up was goddamn hard. It was literally hard, as in I had to loving crank my foot up to not end up in Neutral from first. Is this pretty typical? When shifting, do you typically lift your entire foot up?
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Aug 21, 2012 22:50
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Grimes posted:I have to wait for a new radiator to arrive for my SV-650s anyways (transporting accident When I took my MSF course, August 4th and 5th, I was on a bike that had an identical shifting problem. I kept complaining about it, but the instructors insisted I was simply unskilled in shifting a manual transmission. On the bike I had I would literally have to smack it up as hard as I could with my foot to make it shift up. To downshift I would have to pick my butt up off the seat and my entire foot off the foot peg, then stomp down as hard as I could. That bike had a lot of issues and, during my test, it ended up shooting out from under me while [I thought] it was in neutral and my hand was off the throttle. Initially I failed the test because we're not supposed to drop the bike during the test and they had their back turned to me; but the rest of the students, who had seen the incident, vouched for me. When they inspected the bike they determined it did have issues so they gave me another bike to finish my test on. (I passed) [/rant] Sorry about the rambling, anyway - your MSF bike may have issues from the abuse it's seen from previous students. Just try to work around it unless it is potentially going to cause you injury. Your personal bike, however, should shift pretty easily. I have a Honda Rebel 250 that I ride around town and it shifts pretty easy and naturally. Occasionally I'll accidentally shift it up into neutral instead of second, but that's a non-issue that takes half-a-second to correct. TL;DR - in my experience your MSF bike may suck but your bike should shift naturally (you should need to lift your toes all the way up, but not forcefully or uncomfortably)
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Aug 21, 2012 23:09
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Safety Dance posted:It's all muscle memory once you've been riding more than about 30 minutes. The MSF instructors and exercises, in my experience, are really good at introducing new things in very small steps, so you're only really conscious of adding one or two new actions at a time. That's a relief! Thanks.
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Aug 21, 2012 23:14
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Grimes posted:I don't know if it was my bike or what (Honda Nighthawk) but shifting up was goddamn hard. It was literally hard, as in I had to loving crank my foot up to not end up in Neutral from first. Is this pretty typical? When shifting, do you typically lift your entire foot up? Maybe typical on MSF bikes... my CB400 yesterday at the motorcycle school had the same issue, although maybe not quite as bad. Now have class graduation certificate and "passed the written and practical" certificates in hand, all that's left is to go down to licensing center and get endorsement issued 
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Aug 22, 2012 00:40
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For shifting up, if you're bumping it up and releasing after you feel the click before you release the clutch, sometimes you'll get a false neutral on some of the older bikes (like the one I was on in my class). Next time you go from 1st to 2nd, try keeping your toe pressure on the bottom of the lever and slip the clutch out. I had to do that to the little beat up 125 the whole time I was in the class to get it to go into gear properly.
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Aug 22, 2012 01:45
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