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My cocktail cheat sheet:  I used to work at a well known nightclub in Manhattan and I used to train the new hires. Some of these people were hired simply because they had the right look and seemed like they wouldn't steal, so they often didn't know much beyond opening beers and Cosmos. So I made this thing above. It'd be useful for a brand new bartender, I used it to transition wait staff to the bar as well. (Imgur converted the pdf to png files but whatever, that's good enough. And since I don't know what an easy to use file host is anymore this is what you get.) An Exit Strategy As I mentioned above, I used to work at a well known nightclub in Manhattan. I'd ring 5k a night without breaking a sweat. I was the only non-manager in the building the boss would trust to handle money and do cash-outs. When he opened another club in another location he'd bring the managers from that place to NY and I'd be the one that would indoctrinate them into how this particular club worked from the paperwork perspective to (some of) the back of the house stuff. I was asked on more than one occasion if I'd like to manage one of the new clubs. I didn't, really. For one the out-of-house managers we hired almost invariably quit a few weeks later as the club was run the boss's way and no one elses and that involved paying (literally) for your mistakes, ungodly hours, getting yelled at over the phone for stuff that was just expected at most other venues, etc. But more than that I knew I didn't really want to be a nightclub manager, and I knew I couldn't stay a bartender forever. First of all, how many 40+ year old bartenders do you see that aren't working in a hotel bar somewhere or co-owners of a dive bar that's somewhere in the cycle between hipster-cool, popular, and empty? Second of all, I'd help the boss choose who to hire out of our interviewees and on a particular occasion I remember I suggested one particular bartender who seemed to fit his rubric (willing to eat poo poo, not likely to steal, not a total disaster behind the bar) and he flat out told me "He's too old." He was 30. At the time I was 30 as well. Some people will read this thread with the thought that they want to be bartenders or work in the nightlife industry. It's easy money comparatively. It seems like it's a lot more fun than other businesses. Other people reading this thread are already working in the industry. Regardless, it's important to realize that there's a reason there's easy money in the nightlife industry for young people, especially young female people. The bar is selling your youth and attractiveness right along with the drinks. You see, a bar isn't really a place to get drunk. It's a social place, and people, especially older American people, want to be part of a social circle that includes young, beautiful people. And the clubs? Don't get me started -- clubs are an engine that generates a feeling of importance for people who otherwise don't feel important (or who are addicted to that feeling) and that's how they sell 30 dollar bottles of liquor for 750 bucks. So what do you have to offer a bar? Your skills? Please. They pay you either literally nothing or almost nothing and will happily just put two people back there to replace you. Your dedication? How many bars do you know of in your town that you expect to close within the year? When you get old you can't sell your rear end any more, at least not like you used to be able to, and since it's mostly your rear end that your bar is selling that means as you age your employment choices dry up, your money dries up, and you start running into Hard Choices. You see, the nightlife industry is great. But there are no career options in it. If you want to stay in it the only reasonable option is ownership and if you already work in it you know how daunting that is. Million dollar liquor licenses. A throng of neighbors, police, Church ladies, and competitors that would (and sometimes could!) shut you down. Competition that has it over you in every way -- better deals with distributors, better location, better staff, more capital, lower rent, more experience, celebrity backing. Customers that consist almost entirely of drunks, and, by the time it gets to where you have to interact with them as a manager, usually drunken assholes. Your staff will sometimes have you wondering why they're working in a bar instead of as jewel thieves or cat burglars. And the hours. Holy god the hours. You can't go to anything on the weekends and everything is on the weekends. 5am every night that you close, if you're lucky, and everyone is drinking, on drugs, or loving eachother. Drama. Oh lord the drama. I'm in medicine now. The dregs of medicine, but I'm counting it (I'm an EMT -- soon to be a paramedic). You don't see many 50 year olds on ambulances either but you do see plenty of 40 year olds so I bought myself a few more years to go inside as a nurse or a doc or whatever (I'm a smart guy I swear! I'm just a little lazy. So I guess anesthesiology! harhar medicine jokes). But let me tell you one thing. Ex-nightlife people have people skills in spades and that can be hugely important in other industries. So as you look out into the vast sea of emptiness that now represents possibilities of meaningful employment in the US (banker? someone who cleans a banker's house? oil executive? someone that cleans an oil executive's house? someone that gets shot at? someone that inhales the fumes of either poo poo or toxic chemicals?), if you lack a little direction, turn to your people skills and think "what other businesses can use those?" Here are some ideas. Medicine. Advertising. Sales (including Real Estate once people start buying houses again). Recruiting. PR. Hospitality. Talent agent / manager. Social services. Teaching. "Oh no no no I can't do X because of Y!" You're still young. Fix Y. These days when I get a new EMT on my ambulance I tell them that there's one extremely important thing they have to keep in mind while working as an EMT. Above all else. And that is that you don't want to stay an EMT (mostly because we have to carry 400lb diseased and dying landwhales down five flights of stairs on a regular basis). If you're an EMT and you're not in school or setting up to be in school or otherwise working on another career then you're wasting your time. And if I could go back in time and change one thing about what I'd tell all those people I trained for the bar it'd be the same thing: If you're a bartender and you're not in school or setting up to be in school or otherwise working on another career then you're wasting your time. raton fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Aug 9, 2012 |
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Aug 8, 2012 16:27
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navyjack posted:Welp. And here I've been saying I wanted to turn in my keys and get a daytime grown-up job. Maybe wear a necktie. There might be jobs in America again in 20 years, check back then.
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Aug 9, 2012 01:59
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Baboon Fiesta posted:What exactly is a mixologist? Google doesn't really go into much more depth than 'they are basically bartenders but sometimes engage in cocktail-alchemy'. It's a bartender with facial hair from the 1800s.
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Aug 9, 2012 14:16
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Respekt posted:Is sparkling water and club soda essentially the same thing? People seemed so shocked that we don't stock mineral/sparkling/bottled water at our bar. Can I just serve them club soda and a lemon and say its house sparkling water? Mineral has a flavor, seltzer has a flavor, tonic has a flavor. The others (sparkling/club) are acceptably interchangeable. If someone asked for mineral water I'd say "club soda with a lime is as close as I can get, that ok?"
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Aug 10, 2012 00:17
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I worked in a place before that had a cigar area with vents and all that stuff but they got rid of it because they couldn't use the space fully when it was designated for cigars as they had to keep it available for cigars. On most busy nights it was just a needlessly empty room. Ban all smoking in your bar IMO. Girls don't like it. The staff doesn't like it. Smokers are used to their addiction getting beat on so they won't even  that much.
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Aug 10, 2012 19:41
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Sheep-Goats: used to be a club bartender in Manhattan, in EMS now
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Aug 11, 2012 00:29
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IMO it's often easier for males to get into bartending via serving these days than via barbacking simply because in so many cities now there are no non hispanic barbacks and the hispanic barbacks aren't candidates for promotion. Your first bar job is going to have something wrong with it. Chain restaurant. lovely Indian casino. Boss tries to pozz your neg hole everytime you bend over. Whatever. Maybe you're lucky and you get let into a place through family, friends, or connections. If all else fails though, the bar at Applebees is still a bar. So start somewhere that sucks, and in six months move on. Oh and by the way, servers usually make more than bartenders do and work fewer hours, especially the more high end you go. Most bartenders do that job instead of serving out of pride IMO -- no offense to servers but if I had a shop full of only bartenders everything would go fine, but if I had only servers things would fall apart. leica posted:Our bar is an outside bar that's the problem. Cigs are bad enough, but even outside, cigars are annoying. I can't imagine working an indoor bar where smoking is allowed. A good friend of my wife's who was a bartender passed away from emphysema and never smoked a day in his life. His doctor told him it was from all the second hand smoke he was exposed to over the years Yeah ban the cigars outside. They're bad for business. I smoke a cigar once in a while but I'd never do it in a crowded public place. raton fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Aug 11, 2012 |
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Aug 11, 2012 02:34
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navyjack posted:That might be a regional thing? Around here (Colorado, and Indiana before that), barbacking is still very much a skill position and the pre-bartender job for men. Oh, I'm sure it's quite regional.
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Aug 11, 2012 03:41
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Best overall bar in Manhattan is probably Macao but I don't put up with crowded bars any more so I never go to the best. I haven't had time to go out really for the last year but if I did I'd just crawl around alphabet city or that little cluster of Irish bars near my apartment in Woodside. Most girly drink: Half peach schnapps with half midori, topped with half sour and half OJ. They love that poo poo and it's 100% a shameful thing to put in your mouth. I kinda like it too... raton fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Aug 12, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 02:37
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JawKnee posted:Chocolate martini. Stoli vanilla and Godiva white you mean 
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Aug 12, 2012 02:51
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But then it doesn't look like you're drinking a cup full of icy cum. double There's a friend of mine back in Montana that I always get a Pink Squirrel for and his Irish rear end drinks it like it's manna. Edit: he also ran the length of the bar one time with his hand held out and slapped every single person there in the back of the head and somehow didn't start a fight. In a dive bar. In Montana. raton fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 12, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 02:59
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Ice chips in my Corona, an essay, by Goat.
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Aug 12, 2012 12:04
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Tip pool laws vary by state, but in my opinion the manager should both not be directly involved in service and if he gets dragged into it he should put the tips into the bartenders tip jar (or hand them over to the server for that section) and give them up entirely. The setup you have where because you're a manager you don't split tips from anyone you happen to serve is extremely divisive and too prone to interpretations of abuse. Very bad policy. You're going to serve some regular because you've known him longer, he's going to do his usual thing and tip well, and the whole bar staff is going to feel that you poached him just so you could line your pocket. Now, I could imagine a bar where the manager also is constantly at work behind the bar (not just "when it gets busy") and in that case he should contribute to and share in the tip pool. If you only work for a couple hours of the night what you do is stuff a new bucket into the old tip bucket, start working, and then split the new bucket tips evenly with the bar. When you stop helping out you stuff a third bucket on top and the bar staff then splits that as they will, just like the first bucket. If you're not allowed to participate in a tip pool you should not be in a position where you expect tips, and if you do get roped in then you shouldn't put yourself in a position where anyone is going to think you're twisting the letter of the law and abusing your position to step on their incomes. "I served him so the law requires I keep all of this for myself, sorry guys" is BS. The law, if that's what it is, clearly wasn't made for that purpose. Another shady tip practice (IMO) is where managers take a cut of service staff (including bar) tips because they enable the bar staff or whatever. However the bartenders pay the salary of the manager and the manager doesn't give them a cut of his weekly check. This is illegal in some states (New York) and both legal and commonplace in others (Vegas). nrr posted:oh yeah I forgot to mention, last night I had a guy in the restaurant order his martini shaken and with ice chips in it. Then 5+ minutes after it was delivered, it came back... "this is too watery" Haha martini guys are so poo poo raton fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Aug 13, 2012 |
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Aug 13, 2012 12:46
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Forever_Peace posted:I found the mid-range liquor recommendations from the last thread really helpful. Has there been any change in the best-value gin/whiskey/bourbon/tequila/rum etc. for a home bar over the past two years? Nope! Still the same. navyjack posted:My previous bar experience before this most recent bit was before tip pool laws became such intricate things, so I don't know how other places deal with this stuff, so I'm really interested in what you think and what you've experienced. When you say "the manager" do you mean just the GM, or everybody with the power to "hire, fire, and discipline"? Cause that is the criteria we are told applies to who may or may not participate in tip pools. I think that specific language comes from the Choi vs Starbucks ruling, but I'm not sure. We had to change the title of our shift supervisors to "bar leads" to make it clear that they didn't have that ability. As an assistant manager in the company I work for, I am paid at the lowest legal rate for a salaried employee and expected to sing for my supper behind the bar Friday and Saturday nights. If they paid me at that rate and I couldn't bartend, I'd just quit or take a demotion, because I can make that with 3 decent shifts a week with immeasurably less stress (Hell, I've considered it anyway). A manager is not just the GM. It's anyone with administrative abilities who draws a decent salary for them and for whom those administrative tasks take a significant amount of time. Why are you doing managerial stuff for free? If they want real work ask for real money. They're putting you in a lovely spot. raton fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 13, 2012 |
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Aug 13, 2012 15:49
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leica posted:Sounds like you need to get out from under your "title". IMO, companies use titles and salaries as a way to gently caress over employees more often than not, but if you're happy with your title/salary then you need to stop collecting tips. Otherwise go back to being a bartender, because tipped employees tend to make more money than management (especially assistant management) anyway. This is a really important point to make about the service industry. A title isn't a promotion. More money for less work is a promotion. If they reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllyyyyyyyyyyy neeeeeeeeeeeeeeed your help then they can reaaaaaaaaaaaallyyyyyy paaaaaaaay for it. Otherwise they can pound sand. This issue only becomes slightly cloudy if you're past 35 and still walking the plank. At that point you've probably blown any shot you have at a normal career and need to start thinking about "how can I open my own place ASAP" and start learning the back of house stuff and collecting partners for opening it up. As to why they're managers instead of bartenders, it's usually because they've gotten too old/fat to hold a bar job.
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Aug 13, 2012 20:25
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I know bartenders in their 50s and it ain't no job for an older guy/gal. The only ones that don't seem totally busted are the ones with union casino jobs or ritzy hotel bars, but there's crosshairs on every one of them from management. I agree that opening your own place is a huge risk and a ton of work and probably an immeasurable headache. However, if you've only got one shot then you have to take it.
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Aug 13, 2012 21:42
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odiv posted:Are you supposed to ask what scotch to put in the Rusty Nail? Scotch can be fairly varied and that goes extra for its drinkers. Just use a cheap blend unless they specify. JW red is fine. Anything pricier and the Drambuie just shits it up really. It's supposed to be an affordable low brow kind of scotch drink, something for a blue collar guy. Not a frufru thing. Daric posted:My manager decided it would be best to have a bar meeting on Wednesday at 2pm. I have to be at work at 3pm. I really don't feel like coming into work an hour early when they're not actually going to fix any of the issues I bring up. If she leaves early she gets hourly tips. Take all the server tip outs and divide them up based on a weighted average of hours worked. So if you were service for 3 hours and she was for 6 you'd get 3/9 times the total and she'd get 6/9. This is absolutely standard and if she has the gall to demand all of it then get in her face. raton fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Aug 14, 2012 |
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Aug 14, 2012 08:08
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Daric posted:Not how it works at our restaurant. Oh. Then either she can't leave or mgmt gets to pay you 13 extra an hour while you do two jobs. Or the servers can make their own drinks. But who am I kidding. Someone just goes "HEY YOU AT THE BAR, YEAH, YOU, EAT A PILE OF poo poo" and you have to or else they will take you off your shifts.
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Aug 14, 2012 08:22
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Daric posted:Yeah, the bar portion of the restaurant isn't run very well. I'm going to bring up a lot of stuff at this meeting because there's just too much stuff that's out of control. They keep moving up new people that just aren't getting it. Hell, they're training a new guy now and there's not a single open shift for him to take. The last guy they trained barely has 2 shifts. Don't bother. They bring people in without having shifts for them on purpose. Then they can say "oh Gunther needs shifts" and dilute someone else's. Keeps the staff hungry, which keeps them divided and cheap. Again, let me assure you that this isn't accidental blundering. It's strategy. That's how some places are run. Limit yourself to one thing a meeting and make it something minor and easily fixable. The meetings are just window dressing, management doesn't give two shits what anyone says in those meetings.
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Aug 14, 2012 15:03
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It's blue collar, not bogan. Like the video though.
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Aug 14, 2012 15:26
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I used to scoop ice with the glass a lot at one place I worked as we had those thick walled indestructible Libbey glasses there (though I don't recommend following my example). At my other jobs I used to bring in a huge rear end ice scoop that could ice three tumblers in one shot, but it's more rational to just use the tin. Anyway, despite my bad habits I do think that glass directly in the ice is as close as it gets to a inarguably Wrong Thing in a bar.
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Aug 15, 2012 04:33
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Vegetable Melange posted:Nice. Where I'm from, those are staff meetings. Any team member not present gets saved a copy of the memo. I like how in the 90s companies started using "team member" instead of "worker" or "employee" in their literature (back then it was a obvious shiv against those commie unions) and now people use it without being prompted. And by like I mean don't like. :care:
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Aug 15, 2012 18:57
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I would be absolutely shocked if there were any non-hispanic/unpromotable barbacks in LA, bud. You'll probably have to go either waiter > bar or busboy > waiter > bar or dishbitch > waiter > bar in that area. Try the chain restaurants first, others are quite unlikely to hire without experience. Even pretend experience. Please emphasize in the interview that you will happily eat poo poo forever, are happy just being an entry level guy, etc etc, and don't change your mind about this until you've been there a few months and are already the hardest working/most capable barback/busboy/dishbitch/whatever. It's good to mention in the interview that you currently work as a lowly shiteater and are very happy doing that forever. Like Shooting Blanks said, white barback = whiny, entitled twerp who won't do his job because he feels destined for another. You have to counterbalance that. As for clothes every service industry job I've applied to I've worn black slacks and a collared button down business shirt, tucked in, without a tie. Except for one upper end hotel job I applied to (didn't get hired, have no tits, manager was inexplicitly looking for tits) where I wore a suit/tie. I would only wear jeans/khaki pants to the interview if the place was super blue collar / punk oriented, or if it's one of those places where they're "looking for a certain look" which means you wear a shirt that shows your tattoo and show up with hurricane hair. Shooting Blanks posted:as a white guy that started as a barback in Houston 
raton fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Aug 15, 2012 |
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Aug 15, 2012 21:25
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Bash Ironfist posted:The thing that sucks about here is that even for waiter you gotta have experience. Most places I've seen it's like 2+ years. So I might have to try to get a busboy job. Thems the shakes, buddy, it's like that everywhere. The general public doesn't understand that serving is a skilled profession and requires experience to step into any but the least desirable openings. The good news is that after you have like three months of experience as a waiter you can lie and say you have 2 on your resume and no one will notice when you come in for work. Lying when you have 0 days waiting will get caught on day one, though, usually. The hardest part about getting a job in the service industry is getting your first job in the service industry. Bash Ironfist posted:edit: That new place thing is a good idea. There's always places opening here. Always closing too, but that's a different story! A new place will need more people and people with good jobs will usually be hesitant to leave a known position for something that might be worse, so the requirements are lower at them. However, that doesn't mean they're gone. Worth a shot, but don't expect to waltz in. By the way try to look "good" (a cougar would want to touch your dong) when you go in for the interview. LA is a particularly bad spot for this, they want hot young people scurrying around in their place and not much else. We hired one particular (awful) guy for my club in NY one time because one of the female managers looked at him, and when he left the room said "He's my Superman" and licked her lips. 
raton fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 15, 2012 |
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Aug 15, 2012 21:32
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LA is the worst city in the world.
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Aug 15, 2012 21:40
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Bash Ironfist posted:I'm curious about something. Lets say a customer comes in and orders a rum and coke. The coke part is obvious, but how do you choose which rum to put in? Does the manager/owner tell you what the go-to rum is for something like that, unless the customer requests a specific rum? There's a "rail" next to the ice housing the most commonly used liquors. Generally if someone says "rum and coke" they mean "the cheapest rum you have and coke." The cheapest rum is usually on the rail. Anyone who wants a nicer or particular rum will say "BRAND and coke." So "Meyer's and coke" or "Captain and coke" or "Bacardi and coke" or whatever. These are called "call drinks." You can often upsell someone from a rail drink to a call drink by saying "BRAND?" while slowly nodding your head. So:  "Vodka and cran, please." "Grey Goose?" "Uh, ok."At a restaurant setting they may have midrange liqour in the rail. So a rum and coke will be Bacardi and coke. At most bars the brand will vary from month to month as different distributors make different rums ten or twenty cents cheaper a bottle than another. raton fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Aug 16, 2012 |
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Aug 16, 2012 05:44
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Don't take a "promotion" without a pay raise. Don't take a "promotion" without a pay raise. Don't take a "promotion" without a pay raise.
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Aug 16, 2012 06:25
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leica posted:Why is it so hard for people to figure out who's next? Sorry, I'm busy making drinks so I don't see when everyone walks up to the loving bar, I don't have eyes in the back of my head, and I don't hear your inside voice so speak the gently caress up. The important thing is to be systematic, which gives the illusion of order/fairness, which is more important than actual order/fairness. My spot was the corner of the bar nearest the door ("point") and I would work in a circle (counterclockwise because I'm a contrary fellow) grinding away at the neverending two-deep that formed there any time we were remotely busy thanks to the poor general flow in that place. This is in NY too where everyone will always cut in line at a bar (or in traffic) given the opportunity.
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Aug 16, 2012 21:23
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Hotel hospitality, sales. See my post on the first page.
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Aug 17, 2012 05:09
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Bash Ironfist posted:I can't imagine hating someone THAT much. I wish you had taken a picture of their face after it happened though. First job is a first job and you get it where you can.
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Aug 17, 2012 05:58
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If they don't put you where you want to be after six months they're absolutely not going to. They've decided actively not to promote you for some reason or another (looks? being male?). If you have some money saved up at the meeting I would ask "What am I going to be doing differently here in the next month that shows I'm going to move to the bar?" If they say "oh we need you on the floor" explain that you appreciate it can be hard to run a place, but they need to find someone else to do that, you want to be at the bar now. You've more than paid your dues. Don't be surprised if they just let you go when you tell them this. If you don't have the money saved to take a risk like that it's time to just look for another job and quit when you find it. This is the most likely outcome in my mind, as they've done everything short of hanging a neon sign up in there that says "you're not going to bartend here." To be perfectly clear, I think you're really misreading the situation. They don't value you or consider you an asset. They see you as someone who is good for low level fill in poo poo work. The words they use are just to keep you around. Words are free. raton fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 18, 2012 |
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Aug 18, 2012 03:49
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Dirnok posted:Girl and I arguing about how much alcohol was in her drink. Harvard. 
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Aug 18, 2012 12:46
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Any table over six gets a grat. Any bar tab over 100 gets the same. IMO.
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Aug 19, 2012 13:35
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No one in the industry is going to be befuddled into thinking you're an acceptable bartender because you say or actually did go to a bartending school.
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Aug 21, 2012 00:48
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Dirnok posted:Applications with bartending school listed on them go in their own special place. It's 60 gallons and has a bag in it. The circular file.
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Aug 21, 2012 04:02
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Hoops posted:If you want the truth: yes. The staff will hate you for it. If he's tipping a dollar a drink on dollar drink night I'll make him whiskey sours ALL loving NIGHT compared to the horde of ravenous shits that are going to be in there trying to save dollars. I'll probably use the sour from the gun, but hey, a whiskey sour is just a highball and it's no sweat off my balls to make one even if there's no sour on the gun. Weinertron posted:Bartenders, tell me the etiquette around extreme happy hours. I'm going to a bar tonight celebrating 5 years of being open, and they're doing $1 beer, wine, and wells all night. Yes, I'm expecting it to be completely slammed with people packed in there like sardines. I'm still planning to tip $1 per drink. Would whiskey sours be too much work and they're just wanting to toss out beers and shots? A whiskey sour is almost no more work than a rum and coke. Don't worry about it.
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Aug 23, 2012 23:28
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Septic Knothead posted:Maybe a dumb question, but what kind of whiskey do you usually get if you order a whiskey sour without specifying? What the hell kind of whiskey should I specify? Bourbon? Jack Daniel's? Depends on the bar. Usually it's something in a Jack Daniels looking bottle that's supposed to kinda taste like Jack Daniels. In Vegas the go to is Evan Williams. Elsewhere it changes all the time, even in one bar. With the "sour" in there it isn't going to make a huge different in the end product for dollar drink night.
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Aug 24, 2012 00:41
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Weinertron posted:The sour mix came from a gun, and I didn't give one poo poo because it was dollar drink night and I got to have many of them. I tipped $1 a drink, and the bartender came to me before other people because apparently people weren't tipping at all during cheap-rear end night. Exactly par. nrr posted:gently caress everyone who says they're going to tip you well. At some point. In the future. Not now, but, y'know, like, I'm totally gonna take care of you bro. In my experience people who say that don't know how to tip / behave in a bar to begin with, and their idea of "tipping you well" is that they tip at all. Those people are poo poo.
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Aug 24, 2012 05:19
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Der Luftwaffle posted:Highlights of my night; getting tipped 0.68 on 3 very specific martinis and coming in to work to find random sealed bottles of Absolut and Canadian Club (not normally carried) stashed all over the bar because apparently yesterday some party in the restaurant specially requested them and then never ordered drinks with them. Grandpa party
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Aug 24, 2012 12:06
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leica posted:Apparently "free drink" means "I don't have to tip poo poo" either. If they don't have to get out their wallet they won't tip, since the beginning of time. raton fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Aug 24, 2012 |
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Aug 24, 2012 18:56
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