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Groke posted:Cyteen. Oh, man, Cyteen. The sequel is not one of her better efforts. Edit for content: As much as I love Cherryh, I will be the first to admit that her work is uneven. Her last two (Forge of Heaven and Regenesis) were quite forgettable and actively annoying at points. Her biggest strength as a writer is her concision, which to my mind really aids in the exposition of her novels and makes you want to know more about her worlds, but the same quality can leave her climaxes feeling rushed and unsatisfying. The Paladin is an example of when her style can go horribly wrong. Some Cherryh I haven't seen mentioned here that I can recommend: Serpent's Gate (A very early novel, where you can see many of her later thematic predilections taking shape: strong female protagonists, alien psychologies, programmable people, power politics) Heavy Time (Very tightly-focused A-U novel) Port Eternity (Ghoulishly awesome) Gate of Ivrel (Elric is a girl! Also bodyswapping) E. Nesbit fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 3, 2012 23:28
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E. Nesbit posted:Some Cherryh I haven't seen mentioned here that I can recommend: I think you mean Serpent's Reach here. I found it harder to get into than the Chanur or Faded Sun books, but once I actually did? It owns owns owns. quote:Heavy Time (Very tightly-focused A-U novel) It's worth noting that this has an immediate sequel in Hellburner and the two are meant to be read as one piece, although I don't remember them being quite as tightly coupled as the central Chanur trilogy. quote:Port Eternity (Ghoulishly awesome) And this I haven't read yet but I did just finish Voyager in Night and it's easily the most "ghoulish" Cherryh I've yet read. I also found much of the climax worrying and incomprehensible, which is actually something I really like about CJC's writing when she's on form: she's good at presenting things outside the ability of human thought to process or comprehend, and in doing so, evoking the same emotions in the reader that it evokes in the (human) characters encountering it. (Next up: Sunfall. I've had The Collected Short Fiction sitting on my shelf for a while.)
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Dec 4, 2012 00:27
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Yeah I swapped those two titles in my mind (they came in an omnibus as I recall). Port Eternity has a similar premise to Voyager In Night, without the death and personality copying. I am sometimes sad that Cherryh has never optioned her works for a movie or mini-series. Downbelow Station would make a fantastic mini-series or movie trilogy if done right. Hell, you could probably wring two or three seasons of a teledrama out of her Merchanter books.
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Dec 4, 2012 02:21
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E. Nesbit posted:Yeah I swapped those two titles in my mind (they came in an omnibus as I recall). Port Eternity has a similar premise to Voyager In Night, without the death and personality copying. I think her plotlines are far too intricate and involved in convoluted psychology/politics to work as a movie or even a miniseries. Merchanter's Luck might work, or Hestia, but Cherryh's never really done a straightforward "here is the hero cycle" book like, say, Bujold's Vorkosigan saga.
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Dec 4, 2012 03:39
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E. Nesbit posted:The sequel is not one of her better efforts. I enjoyed Regenesis, but I felt like there was another book in the wings yet--it seemed oddly unfinished. Definitely it didn't break any new ground, but then again, Cyteen is an awfully hard act to follow.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:29
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Zola posted:I enjoyed Regenesis, but I felt like there was another book in the wings yet--it seemed oddly unfinished. I think a lot of people got a bad vibe off of Regenesis because it is not as epic in sweep as Cyteen It covers a shorter time period in closer detail, and relies on the reader having read the first book to get them fully invested in the setting and characters. I enjoyed it, myself, but I can definitely see where it would read like a sequel is in the wings.
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Dec 9, 2012 16:04
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Liquid Communism posted:I think a lot of people got a bad vibe off of Regenesis because it is not as epic in sweep as Cyteen It covers a shorter time period in closer detail, and relies on the reader having read the first book to get them fully invested in the setting and characters.
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Dec 9, 2012 16:33
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Regenesis has a fair amount of discussion of Ari's sociogenesis problem, mostly in her discussion with Yanni about Everwinter and where/how to stretch out Union. My complaint about the book is that is just feels kinda padded. Why I am I reading these extensive passages about Ari's awesome new playhouse and it's construction and room decoration and arrrrrrrgh. There was a good 30-50 pages of Cyteen HGTV that didn't need to be there. I just finished her foreigner short story on Closed Circle and it was good if very short. I was expecting to be underwhelmed by Tabini/Illisidi viewpoints because they're both so damned much smarter and more ruthless than me or any other Cherryh POV character except maybe Ari, but they delivered pretty well. I just wish it had been longer - less than a hundred pages on iBooks on my phone was a shame, and you only really get two scenes.
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Dec 9, 2012 19:32
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I guess I'm condemned to waiting mode this week, rumor has it that the copy of Forge of Heaven I requested from Paperback Swap has finally been put in the mail, but I'm not holding my breath, being as it's media mail and Christmas is only a couple of weeks away. I'm also waiting not so patiently to read my copy of Cold Days, which arrived right after release but was earmarked for the Christmas Tree. The temptation was getting pretty bad even without opening the Amazon box, so the better half kindly took away said box and returned with a beautifully wrapped gift that of course I won't open until Christmas. *Looks longingly at the 749 unread posts in the Dresden thread* So I spent some time poking around CJ Cherryh's web site, and discovered she has posted some advice for writers: Cherryh's Law: No rule should be followed off a cliff. It's very information-dense, so I haven't read all of it, but I think that it gives a good glimpse of why just about everyone likes at least one CJ Cherryh book, even if they hate all the others.
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Dec 12, 2012 01:48
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If you're a fan of the Foreigner series, the latest installment, Protector, will be released on April 2nd
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Mar 10, 2013 01:01
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I just started Cyteen, it's my first Cherryh book. drat, it's like reading Dune for the first time! (This is a compliment/good) Just drops you right in the middle of everything, and the worldbuilding is superb. Not many books can make made up politics interesting, let alone with no buildup or prior background. drat.
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Mar 10, 2013 01:25
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Prolonged Priapism posted:I just started Cyteen, it's my first Cherryh book. drat, it's like reading Dune for the first time! (This is a compliment/good) Just drops you right in the middle of everything, and the worldbuilding is superb. Not many books can make made up politics interesting, let alone with no buildup or prior background. drat. Keep reporting your reactions. I came to the series from the Alliance side, I'm interested in how someone who starts with Cyteen reacts to... everything.
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Mar 10, 2013 20:05
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I definitely become more and more pro-Union as I read and reread more into the Company Wars-era novels. Or at least I get more pro-Emory. Come to think of it, Cherryh has a bit of an authoritarian streak, what with most of her societies and political powers being held together and dragged kicking and screaming by a few women who know how to wield power - Ilisidi, Mallory, Emory, Pyanfar, etc.
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Mar 10, 2013 20:17
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mllaneza posted:Keep reporting your reactions. I came to the series from the Alliance side, I'm interested in how someone who starts with Cyteen reacts to... everything. Well I'm about 2/3 through and I still like it a lot. Young Ari is both fun to follow and sympathetic. I don't mind reading about smart kids at all. Reseune is very well set up as a defense contractor of questionable morals but unquestionable utility. The ethics of azi production/treatment is handled really interestingly - she doesn't try to push any one viewpoint on you. Or at least it doesn't seem overt. I haven't seen enough about Alliance to make any judgement about it, but Union seems to be set up in a very forward thinking way - from the bottom up, instead of top down. At least nominally. It seems to have devolved a bit in to bureaucratic and corporate fiefdoms, but the idea that places can govern themselves how they want is a good one. I haven't minded the slow pace of Cyteen at all, but I do hope there's some Florian/Catlin rear end kicking action at some point. It's also an interesting that it takes the villains from the start and turns them in to the protagonists, while maintaining the original protagonists as sympathetic characters.
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Mar 27, 2013 01:29
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Protector has arrived! I read it all the way through the day I got it, and I enjoyed it very much, although I did have to laugh--poor Cajeiri still hasn't had his ninth birthday by the end of the book. This was a lot of fun, as some of Cajeiri's human friends at last arrive for their long-anticipated visit. We also get to see a side of Tatseigi that hasn't been in evidence before. With the usual list of suspects causing trouble, the pace is picking up as Bren and his aishid begin to get to the bottom of the plot that began with Murini. The story ended too soon, meaning that I'm going to have to wait a whole year now to find out what happens next. If you are a fan of the Foreigner series, this one is a welcome addition.
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Apr 5, 2013 04:58
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"The story ended too soon" is about how it felt to me; it felt very much like the first half or first third of a story. It was good, it just felt imcomplete. That complaint over with, I loved seeing Cajeiri's human friends, especially Irene, though I am seriously wondering whether Irene and Gene might ask (and/or attempt) to stay on the planet, and whether if they do Artur will want to join them, actually-functional-seeming family on the station or not. I also thought it was particularly interesting that Banichi was reassigned from obscurity at Tabini-aiji's request, more or less; it makes me very curious how his daughter ended up his partner, too, unless the guy in Assignments whose name I don't recall thought that'd keep him out of trouble or keep her out of 'better' assignments later. And, uh, fortunate three, Tatiseigi warming to Irene because she appreciated his art collection was really cute. 
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Apr 5, 2013 14:51
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zonohedron posted:And, uh, fortunate three, Tatiseigi warming to Irene because she appreciated his art collection was really cute. I cracked up when Tatseigi mentioned seeing the taxidermy specimens by lamplight and then arranged for the kids to see them the same way--I guess an appreciation for scary fun is common to both humans and atevi
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Apr 6, 2013 03:37
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Bass Concert Hall posted:I think her plotlines are far too intricate and involved in convoluted psychology/politics to work as a movie or even a miniseries. Merchanter's Luck might work, or Hestia, but Cherryh's never really done a straightforward "here is the hero cycle" book like, say, Bujold's Vorkosigan saga. A small necroquote here because the Morgaine series has been optioned. Apparently the screenplay for the first novel is already complete.
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Apr 14, 2013 03:58
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Zola posted:A small necroquote here because the Morgaine series has been optioned. Apparently the screenplay for the first novel is already complete. Oho, that's interesting. I think those were the first Cherryh books I read; I've always had a soft spot for them, although I still haven't read the fourth. Hopefully the movie won't be terrible  Sidenote, I wonder if the guys at Blizzard read the books before making World of Warcraft. The series involves interdimensional gates, and the third one has a location named Azeroth, so it seems likely.
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Apr 15, 2013 21:36
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zonohedron posted:"The story ended too soon" is about how it felt to me; it felt very much like the first half or first third of a story. It was good, it just felt imcomplete. Cherryh has a penchant for abruptly ending her novels with a long dangerous bus ride into a gunfight Protector is really one of the better modern foreigner novels. She's started to break out of some of her recent ruts by bringing back Jase and his bodyguards, the kids, and Geigi and reintroducing the Phoenix-Reunion tensions as a plotline. While it's kinda obvious that she hasn't written these characters in nearly a decade - Jase doesn't sound like Jase, has one short conversation about how things are going upstairs, and has very little to say to anyone but Bren; poor Kaplan and Polano don't even get any lines beyond "yes sir" and "no sir" - my favorite thing about the foreigner universe was always the human-atevi cultural friction and Bren's attempts to keep multiple competing human and atevi factions cooperating instead of plotting to destroy each other, and it's great to see that back. I also liked that Cherryh gave Ilisidi a back seat in favor of fleshing out Tatiseigi beyond the prickly stalwart conservative grump. Not to mention some great new characters in the kids and some great born-spacers-gawking-at-planet-life scenes, which were also some of my favorite parts of the original books. All in all a great ride and I can't wait for Peacemaker. Though I hope it's the last Foreigner book and Cherryh spends the rest of her career writing more awesome A-U novels.
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Apr 24, 2013 17:40
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I've recently gone on a Cherryh binge, specifically reading a bunch of her books that I somehow hadn't read yet. So far I've blown through Cyteen, Regenesis, Forty Thousand in Gehenna, and Brothers of Earth. Cyteen I was actually kind of intimidated by, because I was expecting something very much like Downbelow Station and that book was hard. Not so - it's one of her longest books, but also a very smooth and enjoyable read! It was also nice to see things from the Union side for once, since pretty much everything else in A-U that I've read is Alliance (or pre-Alliance Earth Company). From there I went straight on to Regenesis. I enjoyed that a lot, too, although as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, it's a lot smaller than Cyteen - it covers a shorter time period and doesn't really address the big questions from Cyteen, like will the sociogenesis project go sproing horribly later on. I certainly wouldn't mind a sequel, although I do feel that Cyteen and Regenesis can stand on their own. Forty Thousand in Gehenna actually reminds me a lot of Hestia in some ways - a human colony struggling, often futilely, against an alien ecosystem that they don't understand and can't even classify, before eventually reaching an accord with it - but felt a lot more polished, and had the added bonus of filling in the details of the Gehenna Project mentioned in Cyteen just two books earlier. The timeline and policies given don't always match up with what I read in Cyteen, though Brothers of Earth I'm not sure what to think of. Like Gehenna it reminded me strongly of some of her other work, but what it reminded me most strongly of is the Faded Sun trilogy and that is a very, very difficult bar to clear. Brothers of Earth doesn't manage it. It was a good read, but it's probably not one of the books I keep reading over and over again like Faded Sun or the Chanur series. Next up, I'll probably keep reading unread stuff of hers - Hunter of Worlds, Finity's End, and Forge of Heaven in particular - and then, well, probably re-read the Chanur or Faded Sun books 
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May 9, 2013 03:43
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I can't believe I missed this thread. I've been meaning to do a huge effortpost about how valuable Downbelow Station was to the development of science fiction as a whole. I've often wondered whether Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica drew on it for inspiration, or whether it was a case of convergent evolution.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:12
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General Battuta posted:I can't believe I missed this thread. I've been meaning to do a huge effortpost about how valuable Downbelow Station was to the development of science fiction as a whole. I've often wondered whether Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica drew on it for inspiration, or whether it was a case of convergent evolution. Please do this post! I'm going to read Downbelow Station very soon so I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:27
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I'm about to be out of town for a couple weeks, but in brief and without spoilers these are, I think, the most important things about Downbelow: It is almost absolutely committed to narrative pluralism. Most genre writing pays lip service to the notion that 'every character has a motivation', that nobody's evil in their own mind. But, in general, the narrative betrays its preference for the protagonist(s), who is right about something, whether an ideal they cling to or a certain moral fortitude. Asimov's Foundation, even when it blunders, clearly remains the right path; we never see it from another angle and find that it is suddenly ugly, or realize that we've profoundly misunderstood the opposition. Downbelow's characters and political factions all look at each other through lenses that distort their perception. Union and Alliance each have unsettling traits best seen from the other's point of view; even stock characters, like the self-important and obstructionist bureaucrat straight out of Honor Harrington, become genuinely sympathetic and compelling when we're in their heads. Science fiction stories, when they attempt moral ambiguity, are also fond of suggesting that both sides are equally terrible, and that the only way out is some third path - but Downbelow forces us, again and again, to question whether even that path leads to the moral high ground, or even a desirable utilitarian outcome. This pluralism applies as much to individuals as to the broad sociopolitical forces at work, and that's pretty remarkable. Downbelow did the gritty, naturalistic SF thing long before Battlestar brought it to the small screen. One of the most important sources of tension in Downbelow (set aboard the titular station) is the sense that the place is incredibly fragile - but not just fragile in the well-worn sense of cold hard vacuum and tiny ships, but in a more intuitively dramatic way. The human systems aboard Downbelow are the most potentially catastrophic. The threats of riot and disease are bad enough in a city setting; on a space station they feel more like forces of nature than any manmade disaster. The fact that Downbelow's environmental and human ecosystems are so entirely artificial, that they've been built painstakingly and have small tolerances, reinforces how easily everything could come apart. A lot of hard SF, like Reynolds, makes space threatening by painting it as cold, vast, and empty. Downbelow makes space threatening by rendering it sweaty, hot, cramped and crowded. The space action, too, is pretty reminiscent of BSG, and it displays a similar refusal to allow the straight heroic narrative. There's been a trend towards 'dark, gritty' SF/F lately, with Game of Thrones as the poster child. I think I'd compare Game of Thrones and Downbelow in the same way I'd compare Game of Thrones (the TV show) and The Wire - though I'm not going to call Downbelow that good. Game of Thrones is dark and gritty and interested in competing factions with their own defined agendas and a lot of moral ambiguity. But while Downbelow is certainly interested in multipolar conflict between factions with incompatible but still relatable motives, and it doesn't achieve quite the same heights of narrative savagery, it shares with The Wire a certain interest that Game of Thrones lacks - in the world as a system and the way that vast historical and political forces perpetuate cycles of individual and global conflict. I dunno, now that I write that it sounds super pretentious. Maybe I should've found a different show to use as an analogy! I will warn you that Downbelow is a bit of an uncomfortable read at first. It opens with a gaping desert of exposition and Cherryh's style is a little stiff. For all that I've written about the importance of the book here, I'd need to read it again to figure out how much of my appreciation is purely intellectual and how much is genuine joy at the execution. But it's a book I strongly recommend checking out, because it does so many interesting things that the rest of the genre doesn't often manage well - consequence, pluralism. e: apparently I am dyslexic
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Jul 9, 2013 07:46
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General Battuta posted:I will warn you that Downbelow is a bit of an uncomfortable read at first. It opens with a gaping desert of exposition and Cherryh's style is a little stiff. For all that I've written about the importance of the book here, I'd need to read it again to figure out how much of my appreciation is purely intellectual and how much is genuine joy at the execution. But it's a book I strongly recommend checking out, because it does so many interesting things that the rest of the genre doesn't often manage well - consequence, pluralism. Agreed on this. I finally sat down and read the entire book fairly recently, and I did find it a little dry at the beginning, but it really shed a lot of light on the politics that in part were responsible for the birth of Reseune and the rise of an Ariane Emory. This one is definitely on my re-read shelf, Cherryh is a complex writer and I find that I never catch all the nuances the first time around.
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Jul 10, 2013 19:26
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I should probably re-read Downbelow at some point, but like you I feel that "an uncomfortable read" is a good description of it, and most of her other stuff isn't. Speaking of which, I've finished my Cherryh bender for now - added on Hunter of Worlds, Tripoint, and Finity's End, none of which I'd read before, and then re-read all five Chanur books to wash it down. Hunter of Worlds is, in a way, the most interesting. I've always felt that one of Cherryh's strengths is her ability to write alien aliens, beings that fundamentally don't think or feel the way we do, rather than just being humans with funny foreheads and an unusual cultural background, and I think the Iduve and the Kallia are actually some of her best - especially the Iduve, which are full of emotions that appear superficially to have human analogues but which are wired up so differently that no human instincts for social interaction apply. Unlike, say, the T'ca, which are so alien that communicating at all is an accomplishment, the Iduve are just human enough to feel very, very alien indeed. The problem is that as a book it feels like some of her weakest work. The plot never really grabbed me and the whole thing just kind of felt like it meandered around pointlessly. It left me desperately wishing that she'd write another, more interesting book in the same setting. Tripoint and Finity's End I don't really have a lot to say about. They were fun, reminded me (unsurprisingly) of Merchanter's Luck. Nice to have a bit more of a merchanter-oriented perspective on the Alliance-Union conflict, since I've been reading more Unionside stuff of late. The Chanur series is excellent as always; The Pride of Chanur is the book that got me into science fiction, in fact, and is still just as good. I've been running around recommending them to everyone.
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Jul 14, 2013 23:11
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How well does Downbelow Station stand alone? I've only read one of her Morgaine books.
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Oct 27, 2013 21:11
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House Louse posted:How well does Downbelow Station stand alone? I've only read one of her Morgaine books. Completely standalone. One of its weaknesses, honestly, because it opens with an enormous savanna of exposition.
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Oct 27, 2013 21:18
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House Louse posted:How well does Downbelow Station stand alone? I've only read one of her Morgaine books. It's set in a larger universe (Alliance-Union), but isn't otherwise connected to any of the other books in that setting. That said, it's also quite heavy and kind of hard to get into; I would honestly recommend starting with almost any of her other SF, but especially the Chanur series, the Faded Sun trilogy, or the A-U books set after Downbelow Station on the Merchanter (Merchanter's Luck, Tripoint, Finity's End) or Union (Cyteen, 40,000 in Gehenna, Regenesis) sides of the conflict. I suspect I personally would have enjoyed Downbelow Station a lot more if I had read it last and thus had an existing context to fit it into, rather than reading it first of all the A-U novels.
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Oct 27, 2013 23:11
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Agreed. I read DB first, a long time ago, and couldn't make heads or tails out of it. I read it again after reading Heavy Time and Hellburner, which themselves were not the lightest reads ever, and found it much improved. Downbelow Station also holds up as well on rereading as any book I've ever read.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:18
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You guys are weird, Downbelow was my first Cherryh and it didn't seem to need any supporting material. 
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Oct 28, 2013 04:43
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I just finished a re-read of Cuckoo's Egg, and I agree with the review that calls it the quintessential Cherryh novel. I liked it when I read it the first time, and it's even better on the re-read because things that didn't seem significant on the first time through mean a lot more when you know what's going on. I just went over to Closed Circle and picked up some new reading material for my Kindle: Heavy Time, Hellburner, and Invitations, which is a new story in the Foreigner Universe. I'm really looking forward to these.
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Oct 28, 2013 05:07
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General Battuta posted:Completely standalone. One of its weaknesses, honestly, because it opens with an enormous savanna of exposition. Zorak of Michigan posted:Agreed. I read DB first, a long time ago, and couldn't make heads or tails out of it. I read it again after reading Heavy Time and Hellburner, which themselves were not the lightest reads ever, and found it much improved. Downbelow Station also holds up as well on rereading as any book I've ever read. ToxicFrog posted:It's set in a larger universe (Alliance-Union), but isn't otherwise connected to any of the other books in that setting. Well, I'll have a crack at it when I have a chance, and maybe try something else. But... a savannah of exposition, you say? Covered in herds of infodumping zebras and prides of geeky lions? How scary. I hope there are some watering holes of exciting action sequences.
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Oct 28, 2013 22:29
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Once it gets through that intro it's pretty tense.
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Oct 28, 2013 22:33
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Bass Concert Hall posted:Though I hope it's the last Foreigner book and Cherryh spends the rest of her career writing more awesome A-U novels. You shut your whore mouth. She's the best alien-psychologies writer out there, and the atevi are great.
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Oct 29, 2013 06:59
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GreyjoyBastard posted:You shut your whore mouth. Well, her blog keeps track of what she's working on in a column on the right, and according to that, Peacemaker is turned in (it has an April 2014 pub date according to Amazon) and she is halfway through the outline of "unknown Foreigner book". Given that she usually does sets of three in this series, that would mean at least three more after Peacemaker comes out.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:38
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I highly doubt there will be much more from her in the Alliance-Union setting, alas. Maybe a third Cyteen book if we're lucky. My understanding is that she no longer works with the publisher that owns the rights to her universe.
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Oct 30, 2013 00:49
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Bass Concert Hall posted:My understanding is that she no longer works with the publisher that owns the rights to her universe. My recollection from her blog circa 2008 or so was that the Foreigner books make a moderate but reliable profit for both Cherryh and her publisher, so there's no real appetite to take the comparative risk of doing anything else.
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Oct 30, 2013 01:21
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GreyjoyBastard posted:You shut your whore mouth. As much as I like the Foreigner books, I do wish she would mix things up a bit more. I wouldn't mind reading more A-U stuff, especially a Cyteen 3 - Regenesis felt a lot like it was tidying up all the small loose threads from Cyteen so that an as-yet-unwritten future book could tackle the big ones. I'd also love to read more Compact Space books, and more books in the same era as Faded Sun and Serpent's Reach; she's barely scratched the surface of the Mri/Regul and Majat timelines.
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Oct 31, 2013 02:05
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ToxicFrog posted:As much as I like the Foreigner books, I do wish she would mix things up a bit more. I wouldn't mind reading more A-U stuff, especially a Cyteen 3 - Regenesis felt a lot like it was tidying up all the small loose threads from Cyteen so that an as-yet-unwritten future book could tackle the big ones. I'd also love to read more Compact Space books, and more books in the same era as Faded Sun and Serpent's Reach; she's barely scratched the surface of the Mri/Regul and Majat timelines. Yeah, I like what she's writing now, but miss A-U stuff. We know at least some Compact ships visited Earth (well, Sol Station): I'd love to see that. Alternately, more books about the Gehennans leaving Gehenna - the little taste at the end was really intriguing.
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Oct 31, 2013 02:27
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