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Plant operation regulation in the states is where it needs to be. ONR set a high bar for a long time.
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Mar 11, 2016 16:31
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Occupy the 3% Serious note though, given what a car is doing every drat day -- that is, hurling one ton of metal plus your fat rear end around constantly with ridiculously little maintenance required -- 3% is mind-bogglingly good ...if that's actually an accurate number.
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Apr 11, 2016 19:28
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I'm not "excusing" the automotive industry for X rate of failure given the scope of the challenge that is two-and-a-half standard deviations of non-failing powertrains. I'm saying that there's nothing to excuse. Edit: where does this all tie back to energy generation?
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Apr 11, 2016 19:30
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Phanatic, can you pull from your mind / experience an example of a device with as many working parts and as severe a level of strain through normal use as a car must have and endure that see greater than three sigmas of tolerance? Edit: this isn't rhetorical -- I just can't think of any myself. I want to say stuff like computers, servers, consolidated architecture / blade systems, but they don't compare in any meaningful ways. Metal fatigue is a bitch and I'm trying to think of things that compare. Edit 2: Having done some hobo-grade gas to electric conversions on Rangers and an 2003 TT, I can anecdotally declare that, once you have a good design for clutch-motor interface, 144V DC storage pack, proper digital control of power, optimizations in general, poo poo just runs. Each conversion I've been involved in was over-engineered to hell, however, and probably would probably be unnecessarily costly at commercial scale. Gas cars "just run" as well, but I can easily accept where an electric motor and simplified drivetrain can make physical complexity plummet. Diesel trains discovered this decades ago: petroleum engines drive electric generators under continually-optimal conditions. Electricity is provided to direct-drive electric motors that, with a slew of controllers, also may operate under continually-optimal conditions. The marriage of internal combustion and a need to let car users drive anywhere from 1MPH to 80MPH with what westerners consider "decent" acceleration prohibits continuous optimal operation of the engine and drivetrain while introducing more moving parts that must endure significant strain. A modern train doesn't give a gently caress - a bigass over-engineered diesel engine drives a gearbox and generator. All three can live in harmony and spool up slowly to reduce strain. The motors and drive wheels similarly don't give a gently caress about anything but moving at optimum speed with optimum acceleration. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 11, 2016 |
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Apr 11, 2016 20:01
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Meanwhile, at a higher level, a conductor and some navigation software keep power generation and train acceleration/speed at levels optimizing fuel consumption for the needs of the terrain and schedule. Trains are awesome.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:24
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Meh. With generation, distribution is implicit.
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Apr 12, 2016 12:08
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ITT: rocks as chokes ridiculed with homeopathy 
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Apr 23, 2016 01:01
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All the more reason to start saving up for a space elevator.
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May 11, 2016 21:59
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We've  had ultra premium solar for a long time. poo poo that is earmarked for space or research probably has no place here, though.
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May 18, 2016 15:23
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Silencr_kit, I think you misread this thread. I've only ever seen level-headed discussion on nuclear power based on real-world examples like existing French programs or discussion on problems like a lack of a standardized, pre-approved turnkey reactor design and SOP in the states that make rollout monstrously expensive, slow, and prone to going over budget. What I've definitely not seen is some kind of blind "slam dunk" support. Unless there's something you have in mind I've forgotten about? Edit: vvv I spoke literally one post too soon. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jun 22, 2016 |
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Jun 22, 2016 04:32
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Let he who has numbers on cost per MW cast the first stone.
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Jun 22, 2016 04:51
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I was not going to be as direct, but now that it has been said, yeah Silence_kit I think you have this thread confused with a reddit sub or something.
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Jun 22, 2016 12:49
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You'll have power until the techno-barbarians see that your house had power during the day. (For people lacking the ability to read beyond sarcasm and think this thread is all about the Sierra Club and nuclear waifu full-length anime gently caress pillows, the above is sarcastic. I do not have a current and pressing concern or obcession with techno-barbarians)
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Jun 23, 2016 00:26
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:driving up the death rate... ...reducing pressure on the energy grid... I keep coming back to   KILL as a solution. Silence_kit has yet to call me on it though 
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Jun 23, 2016 14:52
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silence_kit posted:what about using the excess electricity generated by intermittent sources for the electro-chemical generation of fuels?l What sort of efficiency does this kind of process involve, and what does it need as input? Never heard of hydrocarbons from scratch at more than pharmaceutical or other low-volume scale. Regarding the bit about tarring and feathering, the issue I had was with the pretense you came into this thread with -- Sierra club anti-petrol-at-all-costs and what not -- as though some other, uh, politically-slanted / politically-focused thread had poisoned the well. There's nothing to me weird about suggesting hydrocarbons from  in an energy generation thread.
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Jun 23, 2016 21:23
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Infinite Karma posted:How feasible are flywheels for overnight energy buffering, on a single-house scale? They don't need to be perfect, just enough to store 10-20kwh overnight, and spin up again the next day. http://www.calculatoredge.com/mech/flywheel.htm A 1,000kg flywheel (edit: as a disc -- a ring will be 2-3x more efficient if you can put it in a vacuum so spokes don't screw you with drag) with a diameter of 2 meters (biggest I think you're fitting in a house) rotating at 1400 RPM stores 2.8 kWh. The outer surface of the flywheel would be traveling more than 200m/s. Exposure to atmosphere would drain energy at a non-insignificant rate. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jun 23, 2016 |
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Jun 23, 2016 21:31
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Ramp it up to a ten metric ton device with a diameter of 4 meters and you're storing 122 kWh. The raw steel ingots alone to build this are $3,000+ before any consideration for machining. I am finding myself attracted to the gigantic wheel of death method for storing overnight energy for a dozen homes.
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Jun 23, 2016 21:36
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Lead acid batteries poison the planet and may emit explosive gas, hydrogen is literally a bomb waiting to go off, and a flywheel can stroll through the neighborhood killing everyone in its path. Hydrocarbons are starting to look pretty darn safe right now.
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Jun 23, 2016 21:57
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Potato Salad posted:Ramp it up to a ten metric ton device with a diameter of 4 meters and you're storing 122 kWh. The raw steel ingots alone to build this are $3,000+ before any consideration for machining. More on this w/ some kinematics: Were this disk to become free in such a way that it landed on the ground upright -- and it has enough inertia that it's going to land drat-near upright -- it would draw upon its stored rotational energy to accelerate linearly until the velocity of the outer edge of the disk matched its linear velocity. This occurs at VLinear = sqrt( 1/6 VRimOriginal^2) after some kinematics equations. For the given ten-metric-tonne, four-meter-diameter, 209m/s starting rim velocity disc, this point is 85m/s, or 190 mph. This ten-metric-tonne disc takes up 1.24 cubic meters of steel and has a diameter of four meters -- as such, it is actually quite thin at 0.09m. This is a 22,000 pound disk that is thirteen feet across yet less than four inches thick. This gives it incredible penetrating power against pesky things like your hedges or the neighbor's drywall, particularly when traveling at 190 mph. Of course, there's going to be energy loss as the disc first strikes the ground, spitting steel sparks and flame against your concrete foundation as it tries to accelerate to its theoretical maximum of 190mph from its rest state. Further energy is going to be lost if the substrate yields or breaks under its 22,000 pound mass. The device wouldn't hit 190mph immediately but rather keep trying to speed up until its rim speed finally comes down to match its linear speed. It is entirely feasible that this kind of accident will in real life resemble less of a disk doing a burnout until it gets up to speed, but more of an explosion as the thin, sharp wheel spews hellfire as the device leaves your house not even at maximum speed yet, continuing to accelerate as it cuts your neighbor's house in half and continues down the block.
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Jun 23, 2016 22:18
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Debate & Discussion: You Are Racist › The Energy Generation Megathread: There goes the neighborhood
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Jun 23, 2016 22:22
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That engine block afterwards  CommieGIR posted:That or leaking from the transmission. "Leaking clutch fluid" aka peeled open like a sardine can.
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Jun 23, 2016 23:35
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Frogmanv2 posted:What would happen if you had this system buried under your house, capped by a concrete plug? Would it just try to bury itself in the ground? Consider the following: C4 has an energy density of 6.3MJ/kg. At 122kWh stored energy, the disc has 70 kilograms equivalent of C4. Something will happen.
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Jun 24, 2016 03:12
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^ This is the thinking of my Sam Diego grandparents, who have only twice at night drawn power from the grid since 1996. This is with the two of them being night owls, her a surgeon and him a naval officer. Actually, it's just occurring to me that half their roof is actually solar hot water, which superficially seems fairly cool. Adding a recirculation loop to plumbing was expensive, but the paneling itself is way cheaper than PV.
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Jun 24, 2016 03:43
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I'm gong to go out on a limb and say that there's very, very roughly one lead acid battery -- car battery -- per American. That's current lead acid industrial output. Given how pretty much everyone in the States now uses electronics at night, let us say it takes 5 or even 10 batteries per person charged per day to sustain the Xbox, Facebook, and TV consuming masses without getting deep enough into the charge cycle of the batteries at night to prematurely wear them out. Is it even remotely possible to manufacture enough batteries to go to an every-man-for-himself solar / lead acid system?
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Jun 24, 2016 04:09
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"At capacity?" As in there are times of the day when they regularly turn off generation?
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Jun 26, 2016 05:05
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God loving drat it
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Jun 30, 2016 05:15
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I've seen Germany as a holdout with more co2 produced per arbitrary unit of grid energy than most EU states. It's a point of pride in the French press.
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Jun 30, 2016 12:56
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Article should read, "Plant is material example of green impossibility of coal"
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Jul 5, 2016 16:35
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From article above. The company and regulators were eager to qualify for hundreds of millions of dollars in federal subsidies for the plant, which was also aggressively promoted by Haley Barbour, who was Southern’s chief lobbyist before becoming the governor of Mississippi. In the end, the Kemper project is a story of how a monopoly utility, with political help from the Mississippi governor and from federal energy officials who pressured state regulators in letters to support the project, shifted the burden of one of the most expensive power plants ever built onto the shoulders of unwitting investors and some of the lowest-income ratepayers in the country.
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Jul 5, 2016 16:39
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It's not about cost-effective power. This was about meeting criteria for grants on paper then keeping the charade of good faith up long enough to collect enough disbursements to make the farce worthwhile. If the plant goes live, then hey, expensive power bills for a facility paid for by taxpayers are just gravy.
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Jul 6, 2016 02:12
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Energy providers tout competition as their moderating force while glomming into God-level monopolies. See: Southern Company
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Aug 18, 2016 03:26
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Energy is a strategic resource, and we've seen it used as a political lever in the EU two years ago (Russian natural gas pipes, one-way pipes not capable of bidirectional flow at first in states downstream of those with desire to leverage the capacity to interrupt flow to their downstream customers for political gain). There's a difference in immediate impact of deprivation between commodities and strategic resources. We don't grind to an instant and dangerous halt when the flow of cars, toothpaste, and anime is flagging or stopped outright. Grid failure kills commerce and access to money in seconds. Resiliency is not something a private business has a stake in implementing, especially when liability (both financial and PR) is largely compartmentalized in a large web of subsidiaries. Energy is a strategic resource and deserves a better breed of caretakers than your run-of-the-mill post-1980s "Grow quarterly at all cost, siphon the rewards" MBA program graduates.
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Aug 18, 2016 03:51
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Your post inspired my post. I'm supporting some research labs that throw staticians, political scientists, and ex stock researchers in energy industries into a blender with the goal of modeling "How to Kill X State's Energy Infrastructure Legally" reports and other general works on resiliency, so I may have more amateur-on-a-soapbox posts yet
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Aug 18, 2016 04:08
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Trabisnikof posted:When a grid planner checks out the costs per MW spent on additional unplanned capital, O&M, etc this event is yet another in a long string of nuclear events that justifies the creation of a long-term disposal site sooner than later. ^ This is how someone interested in protecting the near and far future populace from waste disasters really needs to look at it, pronto.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:10
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It isn't like cutting back on nuclear power deployment is going to make the waste issue go away. The waste is out there in huge quantities now, and regardless of whether or not we continue operating nuclear plants, it is already going to need a long-term disposal site with expensive maintenance or monitoring and an army of curators with permanent funding behind them. For all those costs, you might as well continue rolling out nuclear, because we are at this point either committed to handling the issue ourselves or guaranteeing serious waste containment failure issues in the near future.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:13
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Trabisnikof posted:That's what WIPP is. They're having to replace the entire ventilation system because a single barrel was mispacked. Aaaah. I think the headline would be different had it happened at Yucca: "Waste incident at Yucca, contained & underground as per planning of disposal facility" and "BULLET DODGED: WASTE ACCIDENT IN UNDERGROUND FACILITY HARDENED FOR EXACTLY THIS THING"
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Aug 24, 2016 20:16
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 "Mr Yucca Supervisor, what is the likely impact on local wildlife? The water table? What are the long-term ramifications of this spill?" "Bacteria in the storage location are in for a rough ride. This is the desert, and we're underground but very high above the water table. In the long term, I am sure glad this happened here instead of somewhere like Hanford or some other above-ground location."
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Aug 24, 2016 20:21
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Trabisnikof posted:: even if it still happened at WIPP you know they'd temporary block new storage at Yucca and spend a few $B on some new systems based on lessons learned US citizens:  Holy poo poo get this stuff to yucca faster.
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Aug 24, 2016 20:22
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Trabisnikof posted:Ok but how do you suggest we improve this process? Get rid of NRC design approvals? Buy French. We can absolutely railroad tried and tested French designs if the political will to do so existed in the US. We could alternately standardize designs -- as the French did -- with money and political will. The existence of political will -- its absence, rather -- is the core issue, I believe, in this thread, the Climate Change thread, and other "we r loving it up lol" threads. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 24, 2016 |
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Aug 24, 2016 20:32
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Trabi, do you have an overarching point?
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Aug 25, 2016 13:26
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