The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

CommieGIR posted:

Meanwhile in the US: NIMBYism haunts Nuclear Power, but Coal, Oil, and Gas apparently has a radioisotope problem:

https://twitter.com/JustinNobel/status/1219605764462874625?s=20

This is loving terrifying, because they were spraying that highly radioactive brine on roads as far away as Missouri to deice roads and in the summer on dirt roads in rural areas to 'keep the dust down' (hint: it doesn't) and ALSO selling it in bottles as liquid de-icer YOU COULD PUT ON YOUR PORCH AND WALK AND DRIVEWAYS.

quote:

Brine-spreading is legal in 13 states, including the Dakotas, Colorado, much of the Upper Midwest, northern Appalachia, and New York. In 2016 alone, 11 million gallons of oil-field brine were spread on roads in Pennsylvania, and 96 percent was spread in townships in the state�s remote northwestern corner, where Lawson lives. Much of the brine is spread for dust control in summer, when contractors pick up the waste directly at the wellhead, says Lawson, then head to Farmington to douse roads. On a single day in August 2017, 15,300 gallons of brine were reportedly spread.
...
The oil-and-gas industry has �found a legal way to dispose of waste,� says Lawson, 65, who worked as a horse trainer but is no longer able to ride professionally because of her illnesses. Sitting in her dining room, surrounded by pictures she has taken to document the contamination � brine running down the side of a road, an Amish woman lifting her dress to avoid being sprayed � she tells me the brine is spread regularly on roads that abut cornfields, cow pastures, and trees tapped for maple syrup sold at a local farmer�s market.

�There is nothing to remediate it with,� says Avner Vengosh, a Duke University geochemist. �The high radioactivity in the soil at some of these sites will stay forever.� Radium-226 has a half-life of 1,600 years. The level of uptake into agricultural crops grown in contaminated soil is unknown because it hasn�t been adequately studied.
...
But the new buzzword in the oil-and-gas industry is �beneficial use� � transforming oil-and-gas waste into commercial products, like pool salts and home de-icers. In June 2017, an official with the Ohio Department of Natural Resources entered a Lowe�s Home Center in Akron and purchased a turquoise jug of a liquid de-icer called AquaSalina, which is made with brine from conventional wells. Used for home patios, sidewalks, and driveways � �Safe for Environment & Pets,� the label touts � AquaSalina was found by a state lab to contain radium at levels as high as 2,491 picocuries per liter. Stolz, the Duquesne scientist, also had the product tested and found radium levels registered about 1,140 picocuries per liter.

CPI Road Solutions, an Indianapolis-based snow- and ice-management company, sells hundreds of thousands of gallons of AquaSalina each winter to the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and Ohio Department of Transportation, says Jay Wallerstein, a company VP. Supporters tout that the product has been approved by Pacific Northwest Snowfighters, the nation�s most-respected organization for evaluating de-icing products. But Snowfighters official Jay Wells says, �PNS has not tested AquaSalina for radioactive elements� and that �radium-226 is not a standard test for de-icing products.�

Yeah eating all that organic Amish-raised food at the farmer's market? Good luck with that.

In Louisiana they also donated used pipes to schools and parks to make into fences, benches and PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT. FOR CHILDREN. Sitting on a fence for an hour would give a kid a year's worth of radioactive dosage. Jesus H. Christ.

quote:

The levels of radium in Louisiana oil pipes had registered as much as 20,000 times the limits set by the EPA for topsoil at uranium-mill waste sites. Templet found that workers who were cleaning oil-field piping were being coated in radioactive dust and breathing it in. One man they tested had radioactivity all over his clothes, his car, his front steps, and even on his newborn baby. The industry was also spewing waste into coastal waterways, and radioactivity was shown to accumulate in oysters. Pipes still laden with radioactivity were donated by the industry and reused to build community playgrounds. Templet sent inspectors with Geiger counters across southern Louisiana. One witnessed a kid sitting on a fence made from piping so radioactive they were set to receive a full year�s radiation dose in an hour. �People thought getting these pipes for free from the oil industry was such a great deal,� says Templet, �but essentially the oil companies were just getting rid of their waste.�

Jesus, seriously, go read this article then light up your goddamn reps' phones, this is horrific.

Oracle fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jan 23, 2020

# ¿ Jan 23, 2020 00:05

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 21:28

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Lurking Haro posted:

It's already happening now. Coal often includes radioisotopes like thorium that just get blown out the stack or sits on open hills of fly ash along with heavy metals.

Its been happening since the 90's. At least with fracking. Coal its been going on for as long as we've used coal. Those cancer causing numbers are baked in I'm assuming.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2020 17:23

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Rime posted:

400MW onshore farm takes 4-12 months depending on how much weather and logistics fuckery is involved and should cost around $500 Million inclusive of all costs.

A Gigawatt offshore used to take about 2-4 years to fully assemble and commission, but the new madlad WTG's from GE and Siemens are hitting 12-15MW so you only need 66 turbines instead of 220 of them to break a gig now which should speed that timeframe up a lot. Unfortunately the cost savings in man hours are absorbed by a 15MW turbine costing $10-$20 Million each instead of $2-$4 Million.

The USA has estimated capacity for 20-30ish Gigawatts of offshore, between the NE where its safe enough from hurricanes and the West Coast where its safe from everything except the efforts of dumbfuck yuppies.

What about the Great Lakes?

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 08:55

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Rime posted:

The only wind farm approved for the great lakes is not going to be built, because they mandated it could only operate between 8am and 6pm for "reasons" (We can't legally deny this project without being sued, so we'll gently caress with it such that it just can't be built instead.)

There's some solid offshore capacity to be found in there.

How long ago was that, and where was it located (just based on the power of NIMBYism I'm going to guess somewhere around Grand Rapids, probably near a DeVos house). Michigan has a Dem governor now, maybe it'll change...

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 18:00

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Rime posted:

That was in 2020, on lake Eerie.

Michigan only borders a little of Lake Erie man, you�re thinking of Ohio. It was off the coast of Cleveland.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2020 05:03

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Grouchio posted:

Thank you. Because quotes like "batten down the hatches; it's going to get a lot worse" are not helpful in the slightest. It has been a rough 36 hours.

Big liberal states like California will have their more strict than federal laws to fall back on, and since a majority of polluting citizens live there that should help mitigate at least some of the potential fallout. Louisiana, Texas and oil producting states may be hosed but they already enjoy higher cancer etc rates so...

# ¿ Jun 27, 2022 23:23

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Wibla posted:

SCOTUS really wants to send y'all into the dark ages in more ways than one, eh?

Death cult.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2022 16:31

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

CommieGIR posted:

https://twitter.com/BrianGitt/status/1544784594301591552?s=20&t=QITYCntUKavEKl-oJM34uA

Japan is reading the room and doesn't want to be in Germany's position in the future.

Good. Let's see if the country Germany used as an example of why they had to shutter their nuke plants now follows their lead. (spoiler: they won't)

# ¿ Jul 7, 2022 00:24

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

This is maybe promising?

quote:

Over the past decade, nuclear power plants across the country have been shutting down early in favor of cheaper natural gas power.

Now, an influx of investment from the government and the private sector is changing the trajectory of the aging U.S. nuclear fleet and spurring development of new nuclear technology.

But many of the same old hurdles to scaling up nuclear power remain.
�
In an effort to stave off more closures, the federal government began subsidizing older nuclear plants, opening up a $6 billion fund authorized in 2021's Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act this year. That law also set aside an additional $2.477 billion for research and development of advanced nuclear reactor technology.

"Have no doubt, President Biden is serious about doing everything possible to get the U.S. to be powered by clean energy," Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Energy Kathryn Huff told conference attendees. "Nuclear energy is really essential to this," she said.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2022 03:21

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Electric Wrigglies posted:

and yet the O&G illuminati are blamed almost entirely for nuclear resistance rather than the green movements that have good intentions but are just horrifically wrong.

This just makes absolutely no goddamn sense whatsoever. Has there ever been any kind of nuclear accident in Germany�s plants ever that might account for this absolutely pants on head stupid approach to environmental activism? Yeah yeah Chernobyl, but IN GERMANY?

This is like religious loon levels of cognitive dissonance.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2022 14:49

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

DTurtle posted:

Germany didn't have a renewables only plan. Germany had a "do nothing and see what happens" plan with a healthy addition of "buy cheap Russian gas in order to promote peace and democracy in Russia" plan.

The doubling down on renewables plan was literally passed this week by the new government.

Nuclear power provides 5-6% of power production. Coal currently provides ~30% of power production. Renewables (despite the "do nothing and see what happens" plan) provides 50% of power production. Gas provides 10-15% of power. How is nuclear supposed to replace gas or coal in the short-term? There is a short-term crunch due to the "buy cheap Russian gas" plan imploding due to a war.

Personally, I would prefer they keep the nuclear plants running. However, that would still require the emergency preparations being put into place, as there isn't enough nuclear power available to replace (Russian) gas.

Germany does not have a large fossil fuel production industry. Germany once had the largest solar and wind production industry in the world. Unfortunately the CDU and FDP decided to destroy it. Despite those gently caress ups by a government that didn't care too much about renewables, Germany is still doing relatively well with regards to decarbonizing its electricity production. That is only going to happen faster with a party in the government that actually cares about that (just like last time we had that - we kickstarted the worldwide renewables industry).

Which portion of that 50% of renewables is wood pellets?

# ¿ Jul 8, 2022 23:46

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

His Divine Shadow posted:

Might as well ask here too, I am on the lookout for historical nuclear construction costs but have had little success in finding what I am looking for.

I know nuclear reactors where built faster and cheaper, in the 70s in particular, in France as well as Sweden, but I am having difficulties tracking down if they where made within budgets and on time based on the project plans when they where built, or if they also ran into overruns of cost and time?

I read one old report that said swedish nuclear plants where built on time and within budget, but found nothing more concrete than that.

That's it.

You'd probably have to be able to read Swedish to find what you're looking for.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2022 14:37

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Dameius posted:

That's pretty cool how it mimics trees. Won't matter though unless they can scale it, of course.

Article say they already scaled it up once and are working on a second generation model, and the components are cheap and the process naturally separates the sodium and lithium salts without using additional chemicals.

quote:

In addition to concentrating the salts, the technique causes lithium and sodium to crystallize at distinct locations along the string due to their different physical properties. Sodium, with low solubility, crystallizes on the lower part of the string, while the highly soluble lithium salts crystallize near the top. The natural separation allowed the team to collect lithium and sodium individually, a feat that typically requires the use of additional chemicals.

quote:

Conventional brine extraction involves building a series of huge evaporation ponds to concentrate lithium from salt flats, salty lakes or groundwater aquifers. The process can take anywhere from several months to a few years. The operations are only commercially viable in a handful of locations around the world that have sufficiently high starting lithium concentrations, an abundance of available land, and an arid climate to maximize evaporation. For instance, there is only one active brine-based lithium extraction operation in the United States, located in Nevada and covering over seven square miles.

The string technique is far more compact and can begin producing lithium much more quickly. Although the researchers caution that it will take additional work to scale their technology from the lab to an industrial scale, they estimate it can cut the amount of land needed by more than 90% compared to current operations and can accelerate the evaporation process by more than 20 times compared to traditional evaporation ponds, potentially yielding initial lithium harvests in less than one month.

Since the materials to produce the strings are cheap and the technology does not require chemical treatments to operate, the researchers said that with additional enhancements, their approach would be a strong candidate for widespread adoption. In the paper, the researchers demonstrated the potential scalability of their approach by constructing an array of 100 lithium-extracting strings.

Ren�s team is already developing a second generation of the technique that will enable greater efficiency, higher throughput, and more control over the crystallization process.

Sounds like a real holy grail improvement.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2023 16:02

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Electric Wrigglies posted:

Eh, energy generation is very far from putting food on the plate (or being a car park spot for the family car) so it is easy to organise against. This is not new. Nuclear in the 80's because of the hundreds of hectares of land it takes and the hundreds of tonnes of waste that needs to be buried, hydro dams ahead of that, solar and wind after and coal throughout. Additionally, like mines/dam developments/etc, companies struggle to get their consultation and community engagement right. Local stakeholders are always the first priority and it seems only now green movements have an issue with them now that it impacts their dreams.

Except he�s absolutely right and if these guys had done the slightest bit of homework they would have discovered this has been happening since at least 2012 and seems to be a concentrated effort by anti wind and solar money (probably the Kochs at least, likely others as well, all tied to oil and coal) to push for these onerous restrictions at rural county level government. They�ve been quite successful at seeding fear and doubt among an already prone to conspiratorial thinking rural populace who are convinced wind and solar are going to poison their land and drive their cows crazy and other batshit bullshit (windmill cancer?!)

# ¿ Feb 7, 2024 10:40

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

cant cook creole bream posted:

As far as I know it's not particularly worse then the farmland in say France. It's just really effectively used to it's full extend in raising those particular crops to the point where the soil is drained. The other posters are mostly saying that it's nonsense to claim that it is an important factor for biodiversity, because aside from some mice and birds of prey, animals don't really live there. Taking some of that away wont cause some rare species of salamander to go extinct.

Do they not practice crop rotation in Germany? Like at least alternating maize and soybeans so the beans can replenish the nitrogen in the soil? That�s like baby�s first farm lesson here and we aren�t exactly a Mecca of hippie dippy farming practices.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2024 16:49

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

SpeedFreek posted:

There is a lot more pollution that results from continued use of coal than just CO2, the coal dust, fly ash, groundwater pollution from the ash, everything else that goes up the stack with the CO2. I'm sure someone in this thread has detailed knowledge on the effects of mining the stuff. There are no good reasons to keep operating coal plants after the 1970s.

Coal plants generate at least ten times the radiation than nuclear plants do for the same amount of electricity produced. The ash contains significant amounts of arsenic, lead, thallium, mercury, thorium and uranium.

Coal is bad.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2024 15:05

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 21:28

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Isn�t sand already becoming a scarce resource since you need it for concrete/cement and it takes a long time to regenerate? (I guess it�s just water-eroded sand; wind eroded sand like in the desert doesn�t work for concrete).

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 15:07

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