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I just bought these books for my Kindle, how is the setting/writing/level of violence/character development? More A song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings or neither? My main question is it more adult oriented than Tolkien?
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Jan 12, 2014 01:23
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Honestly it's pretty acceptable for teens+, but the writing is good enough that adults can enjoy it. There is a lot of descriptive writing and character development, but nothing about the writing should make you struggle. The plot can get dense and confusing, but that's due to it being 13 books of material.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:29
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Wizard of Wang posted:I just bought these books for my Kindle, how is the setting/writing/level of violence/character development? More A song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings or neither? My main question is it more adult oriented than Tolkien?
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Jan 12, 2014 01:31
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Much more like Lord of the Rings, in fact as other posts here have noted, the first half of Eye of the World is very much an homage/spin on LOTR. And really the only part that is similar to SoIaF is that by the second WoT book you get multiple story lines from different characters perspectives, and many moving pieces across the WoT world. The violence, sex, and cynical world-view is nowhere near SoIaF-levels, either. I find Jordan's writing to be better than Martin's, too. And most importantly, while I'm only on the 5th book right now, I enjoy that every book has a climactic scene that is built up from the beginning and ACTUALLY HAPPENS in that book (as opposed to SoIaF's much maligned never-ending and never-happening impending doom). Edit - and I agree with the above poster, the characters get fleshed out over the course of the books. Xenochrist fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jan 12, 2014 |
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Jan 12, 2014 01:34
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Wizard of Wang posted:I just bought these books for my Kindle, how is the setting/writing/level of violence/character development? More A song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings or neither? My main question is it more adult oriented than Tolkien? It's more adult oriented, but it has more in common with Tolkien. Characters have plot armor a foot deep and the characterization is usually very black/white.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:36
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Ithaqua posted:It's more adult oriented, but it has more in common with Tolkien. Characters have plot armor a foot deep and the characterization is usually very black/white.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:38
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Wizard of Wang posted:I just bought these books for my Kindle, how is the setting/writing/level of violence/character development? More A song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings or neither? My main question is it more adult oriented than Tolkien? It's about halfway between the two. The writing style is more modern and closer to GRRM; the level of violence and grimdark is far closer to Tolkien (for example, rape happens offscreen and only by implication in WoT, and only to the bad guys). Character development is significantly more complex than Tolkien and in some ways more complex than GRRM (especially when you start comparing what's happening from different character's viewpoints). The best way to sum up the series is take a set of Standard Fantasy Protagonists -- heroic farmboys and farmgirls -- who are facing Standard Fantasy Antagonist (The Dark One), then explore what being in that position would realistically do to their heads and how the rest of the world would realistically react to such goings-on. One thing to remember is that in a sense these books were a forerunner of Martin -- ASoIaF came out several years after WoT began.
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Jan 13, 2014 15:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's about halfway between the two. The writing style is more modern and closer to GRRM; the level of violence and grimdark is far closer to Tolkien (for example, rape happens offscreen and only by implication in WoT, and only to the bad guys). Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 16:08
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*cough* Morgase *cough I started my first, last, reread just over two years ago. Then I had to move cross-country, get a job, get another job, etc, you know how it goes. On the bus down south I was halfway through the series finishing off Lord of Chaos. My paperback of MoL arrives tomorrow. I'm scared to get the mail. 
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Jan 15, 2014 01:28
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Willie Tomg posted:*cough* Morgase *cough Also, by implication, a bunch of victims of Padan Fain and the Shaido and so forth.
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Jan 15, 2014 06:03
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Nihilarian posted:Well, there's Tylin and Mat, though I get the feeling that RJ didn't think of it as rape. I'm not so sure about that. I'm actually reasonably sure (maybe 75/25) that that bit was actually intended to show the state of rape culture in the setting. I'm not sure how well it was done, but I'm fairly sure the fact that no one takes him seriously is the point. There's definitely stuff put in there for fetishistic self-gratification (all the spanking) but I think that's not it.
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Jan 15, 2014 06:23
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neongrey posted:I'm not so sure about that. I'm actually reasonably sure (maybe 75/25) that that bit was actually intended to show the state of rape culture in the setting. I'm not sure how well it was done, but I'm fairly sure the fact that no one takes him seriously is the point. There's definitely stuff put in there for fetishistic self-gratification (all the spanking) but I think that's not it. I'm never going to be able to shake the thought that said event is more of an illumination into the state of rape culture in the mind of RJ himself.  Good storyteller, weird ideas about women.
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Jan 15, 2014 11:20
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Umbra Dubium posted:I'm never going to be able to shake the thought that said event is more of an illumination into the state of rape culture in the mind of RJ himself. He had tons of weird ideas about writing women yeah but I think on this specific issue it's important to remember that the world was pretty explicitly intended (and fairly poorly conveyed, given that I know I never really got this until it was explicitly spelled out for me listening to a Sanderson podcast) to have female privelege rather than male. So you have this happen to this character and it's set up so nobody takes him seriously when he tries to voice his objections (because he's a man, and because they assumed he was asking for it, and because they think of him as kind of a slut) so I think it's pretty nakedly the intent of that bit. How successful it is, ymmv, but after looking at that bit, I'm fairly sure that's what's going on there. The reason I don't think it's something weird on the part of the author is because you can pretty easily find that elsewhere in the series, and that reads pretty differently.
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Jan 15, 2014 11:46
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It's also about royal privilege and showing how coercive that is. I'm betting nobody at all batted an eye when Mat's cards buddies in the High Lords of Tear were talking about "tumbling" the maids 3-4 books earlier.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:47
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I'm not sure what you mean by poorly conveyed; it seems obvious to even the casual reader by halfway through The Eye of the World that the story's most important setting point is that it's set in a thoroughly matriarchal world.api call girl posted:It's also about royal privilege and showing how coercive that is. I'm betting nobody at all batted an eye when Mat's cards buddies in the High Lords of Tear were talking about "tumbling" the maids 3-4 books earlier. I'm not sure if I ought to be reading more into the world "tumbling" than I am (I took it as just another of Jordan's euphemisms for sex, like Mat going on and on about how much he enjoys "cuddling") but I assumed when reading the "tumbling" was consensual. Maybe I'm forgetting something important.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:50
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'm not sure what you mean by poorly conveyed; it seems obvious to even the casual reader by halfway through The Eye of the World that the story's most important setting point is that it's set in a thoroughly matriarchal world. Exactly. Robert Jordan said that he originally conceived of The Wheel of Time by wanting to write a fantasy world that was run by women instead of men, and what it would take to make that happen. The solution he came up with was that women had the use of magic powers and the men who also did were hunted down and killed "for some reason". The entire plot kind of spread from that original idea.
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Jan 15, 2014 15:04
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'm not sure if I ought to be reading more into the world "tumbling" than I am (I took it as just another of Jordan's euphemisms for sex, like Mat going on and on about how much he enjoys "cuddling") but I assumed when reading the "tumbling" was consensual. Maybe I'm forgetting something important. Think about the power structures and how "consensual" that poo poo is.
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Jan 15, 2014 16:59
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A request you don't dare refuse basically, and one of the few options for advancement too, catching the eye of a person in power.
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Jan 15, 2014 17:19
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thrawn527 posted:Exactly. Robert Jordan said that he originally conceived of The Wheel of Time by wanting to write a fantasy world that was run by women instead of men, and what it would take to make that happen. The solution he came up with was that women had the use of magic powers and the men who also did were hunted down and killed "for some reason". The entire plot kind of spread from that original idea. On the other hand I've read some interview where he states that it's not simply a straight up "Matriarchy" (as one might picture the stereotype). Pretty funny he didn't think of the Age of Legends as socialist though  e: For the tumbling, yeah, ESPECIALLY considering how noblility vs commoners work in Tear. Sandersons own take would probably have been more in the line of the Mistborn novels nobles/skaa thing. Jordan was just more subtle about those things in general. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 19:03
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Willie Tomg posted:*cough* Morgase *cough Yeah, fair point, when I said "good guys" I was thinking primary characters and forgot that one. Basically I just meant that rape in WoT is (mostly) offscreen or by implication only.
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Jan 15, 2014 19:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, fair point, when I said "good guys" I was thinking primary characters and forgot that one. Basically I just meant that rape in WoT is (mostly) offscreen or by implication only.
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Jan 15, 2014 19:48
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I'm halfway through Lord of Chaos. Loving the series so far, but uhhh, is this around the time the series "slows down" that everyone speaks of? I ask because the non-Mat chapters are starting to feel like a little bit of a chore. Not that much has happened during Mat's chapters either, I just think his character is interesting enough to make dull things sound interesting. It's like the man is constantly asking himself "Which route requires me to give the smallest amount of fucks possible?" without a hint of irony despite being unable to stop himself from eventually-sorta-doing-the-right-thing. Also, I'm getting an endless amount of amusement out of (mild Lord of Chaos spoilers here in case someone hasn't read up to that point yet)Rand's version of Hogwarts. I know this is intentional, but I just find the contrast between it and the White Tower hilarious. "This is a barn. This is a man who can channel. Channeling will get you killed in a very short amount of time. HAVE AT IT." "YES SIR."
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Jan 16, 2014 04:28
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Hopeford posted:I'm halfway through Lord of Chaos. Loving the series so far, but uhhh, is this around the time the series "slows down" that everyone speaks of? Yes, after Lord of Chaos the series slows way down until the 11th book. There are still some high points, but they're spread pretty far apart. It's not so bad when you can read them back-to-back without waiting years between books.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:49
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'm not sure what you mean by poorly conveyed; it seems obvious to even the casual reader by halfway through The Eye of the World that the story's most important setting point is that it's set in a thoroughly matriarchal world. I say poorly conveyed because despite all that, especially in like Eye of the World, it still pulls poo poo like the groups of women going 'well we'll let the men think they're in charge'. It's there if you look, but I know for me it did take it being pointed out so I could go 'oh, huh, yeah, I see that'.
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Jan 16, 2014 05:12
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I'm in the middle of Crossroads of Twilight. Looking forward to being through the slog that everyone mentions. According to publication date, New Spring should be next. Is this worth picking up and reading, or do you recommend going next to Knife of Dreams.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:12
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Raimondi posted:I'm in the middle of Crossroads of Twilight. Looking forward to being through the slog that everyone mentions. You don't NEED to have read New Spring to move on, but it's worth picking up and reading at some point.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:14
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I couldn't even bring myself to finish New Spring, it was so bad. And given how short it is that's really saying something. I was really looking forward to seeing how the White Tower operated in ordinary times, but what little I did learn detracted so much from my appreciation of the series that I generally choose to forget it.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:14
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McNerd posted:I couldn't even bring myself to finish New Spring, it was so bad. And given how short it is that's really saying something. I was really looking forward to seeing how the White Tower operated in ordinary times, but what little I did learn detracted so much from my appreciation of the series that I generally choose to forget it. The second part actually has a reason behind it if you look to the formation of the Tower. It was seven Ajahs forming an alliance out of mutual desperation, and authority had to work through strength in the Power or they'd not only refuse to obey, but kick the would-be leader's rear end to boot. Still is that way really.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:01
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Besides, there were more unspoken Aes Sedai rules than the one mentioned in spoilers: it's just that in the main series White Tower life is not very important until the search for the 'traitors' / 'Black Ajah' and then no one's concerned about violations of centuries-old customs but rather suspicious behavior and the ability to lie. Did you have the same "uh, that's it?" reaction to the Kin's way of handling rank (age)? Because that seemed just as arbitrary and unimpressive. As far as the main characters of New Spring goes, it's not really that Moiraine, Siuan, and Elaida are special snowflakes and then the characters of the main series supersede them: they just happen to be the main characters of that story. They're not described as "the first strong channelers since Cadsuane!!", the way Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are (not to mention the Aiel, Sea Folk, and Seanchan channelers). If anything, it felt like Jordan was making an effort not to make them too special, lest the Supergirls seem less special themselves.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:18
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zonohedron posted:Did you have the same "uh, that's it?" reaction to the Kin's way of handling rank (age)? Because that seemed just as arbitrary and unimpressive. My reaction was "yeah, that's a great way to guarantee constant assassinations."
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Jan 17, 2014 03:18
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What would be a good way to determine hierarchy? The point was that all methods all have flaws. Age doesn't gain wisdom and neither does power.
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Jan 17, 2014 03:46
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Spermy Smurf posted:What would be a good way to determine hierarchy? Well, age has the weight of experience and practice. Strength in the Power comes with strength of will. From that you can see the priorities of the Kin and Aes Sedai. The Kin are focused on doing things the way it's always been done. As primarily healers and self defense in their use of the Power, they are conservative, because a mistake means a dead guy. Aes Sedai are focused on control, on getting what they want. They value strength of power and strength of will, because that is what allows you to ignore the control of others. Windfinders are focused on success. They are attached to a ship, and from there, gain recognition from their ship's accomplishments. They value partnership and the support they can grant their partner. Wise Ones having no formal leadership, the strong willed rise to the top. Since they don't fight amongst themselves(unlike the early Aes Sedai), strength in the power is less important. It's important to remember that these organizations formed out of a post apocalyptic collapse. The Aes Sedai rules are more to avoid outright murders in the halls than a true social hierarchy.
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Jan 17, 2014 08:09
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Eric the Mauve posted:My reaction was "yeah, that's a great way to guarantee constant assassinations." Not really. Leadership of the Kin is an administrative position, not a position of power. You don't see people killing each other over who gets to organise Women's Institute meetings.
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Jan 17, 2014 10:21
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Jedit posted:Not really. Leadership of the Kin is an administrative position, not a position of power. You don't see people killing each other over who gets to organise Women's Institute meetings. Quite the opposite really. "Dammit if I have to manage all this crap one more time..."
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Jan 17, 2014 10:29
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And hey, guess which secret faction is totally behind the "Strength trumps all"? rule That's like... 1/5 to 1/3 of the tower actively enforcing that rule, even if everyone else was all mellow (which they are obviously not, ambitious people power-tripping and all that) that's a pretty big hurdle to reform right there. (Isn't this even stated in the books?) Can bet your rear end that Ishamael had a finger in that pie back around year... 1000? Or even setting the scene around the time of the breaking. I recall this too being mentioned when Ishamael goes a-braggin' Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 18:50
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Pimpmust posted:And hey, guess which secret faction is totally behind the "Strength trumps all"? rule Would love a reference for all of these claims. None of them sound familiar to me, but I haven't read any of the books besides 14 in ages.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:16
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Grundulum posted:Would love a reference for all of these claims. None of them sound familiar to me, but I haven't read any of the books besides 14 in ages. I think his argument is based on stuff referred to in the big book of bad art, mostly. It's implied Ishy was able to get mostly free about every thousand years, hence his appearances at LTT's death, the trolloc wars, and the hundred year's war after Hawkwing.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:25
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Well, these are also pretty much specific claims Ishamael has made. He appears to Lews Therin even after he's supposed to have been sealed, he DEFINITELY claims to have had a hand in the Trolloc Wars, claims to have started the Black Ajah which was around that time, and claims to have turned Artur Hawkwing against Aes Sedai as his trusted advisor. Sealing - 1000 years - Trolloc Wars - 1000 years - Hawkwing's reign - 1000 years or so - "modern" Wheel of Time. He's apparently been active for a few years even before the events of the books.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:29
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veekie posted:Strength in the Power comes with strength of will. Counterpoint: Sorilea
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Jan 18, 2014 03:41
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api call girl posted:Well, these are also pretty much specific claims Ishamael has made. He appears to Lews Therin even after he's supposed to have been sealed, he DEFINITELY claims to have had a hand in the Trolloc Wars, claims to have started the Black Ajah which was around that time, and claims to have turned Artur Hawkwing against Aes Sedai as his trusted advisor. I don't really remember where exactly in the books I read it, maybe during one of his early bragging sessions to get Rand to jump ship around book 1-3? + Guidebook (which isn't exactly straight up "this is the truth"). A couple of dozen years of freedom each time I believe, because he was around a *lot* during Hawkwing (to the extent that people started noticing that he didn't age). Strength in the Power comes with strength of will. <--Seems to be entirely "bootstraps"-like self-reinforcing argument to justify the rank structure and entirely bullshit from what we actually see in the books. Well obviously the strong are also the most wise and 
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Jan 18, 2014 10:44
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