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punk rebel ecks posted:Good. The more pressure on the PSUV and their government the better. They have to realize that blaming the big bad businessmen can't distract the population from their incompetence. Speaking of incompetence, what is the endgame of PSUV? Is it to force business into a command economy model by applying price controls left and right? Is it to squeeze them out entirely? Either way it doesn't seem to be going well.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:06
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Guacamayo posted:Enrinching themselves as much as they can, then leave. So same as it ever was, basically.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:24
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I usually like Al Jazeera for news, but this article irritated the hell out of me. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/02/towards-another-coup-venezuela-201421952658348169.html While the author follows the opinion here that the what Chavez did to give the poor a voice was a step in the right direction, she completely discounts the protestors. She claims that because the majority of the press is privately owned, there's no problem with undue government influence. She throws a strawman at the shortages of basic necessities by making a snarky comment about how some blogger wrote about having to visit 10 supermarkets to get enough supplies to bake a cake. She ignores inflation and corruption entirely. She claims security isn't a problem because "Honduras is worse". And, of course, she tries to make it about the United States as much as possible without making it about the United States to paint the protests as an imperialist plot. There're enough things that piss me off about the article that I don't know where to start, but the whole "United States = bad so anti-United States = good" poo poo and the rest of the article makes her sound like the left wing equivalent of a Fox News talking head.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:20
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I hadn't seen the comments, but they even read like a bizzaro left-wing version of yahoo news's comments section.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:57
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Bob le Moche posted:Are people in this thread contesting the legitimacy of last year's elections? I don't understand the issue is with stating that the majority of the Venezuelan people wants PSUV to stay in power when the polls have actually shown this, that is unless the elections were actually not done fairly (I don't know much about this personally besides reading an article by independent international observers at the time the elections happened that praised them for being way better than most) Your best bet for understanding how people feel is to read posts by El Hefe, Hugoon Chavez, and Labradoodle. I think saying "it's either PSUV or the opposition" is a misunderstanding of what's going on. With the skyrocketing crime (including police beating and robbing people on the streets), massive inflation, lack of access to basic goods, destruction of the free press, and so on, there's a lot of reason to be angry at the current government. Again, this is just a white, leftist American talking, but it seems like this is more about society collapsing than what their favorite political system is.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:35
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I think it hurts to think about this as PSUV or opposition. It could be a goal is just to get Maduro to back off. It's not just economic decisions, it's destroying the freedom of press, arresting opposition politicians, setting up parallel governmental institutions when the opposition does win, voter intimidation (stories of people being watched by folks wearing chavista shirts while voting), etc. Making the right economic decisions is a lot more difficult, but it seems like Maduro is listening to an echo chamber and just stopping that would be a positive change. As for the Venezuelan posters here, I think some have said they're students/middle class? I remember one person talking about how you used to feel safe on campuses, now you have kidnappers grabbing people who're going on a walk and there's nothing you can do but pay the ransom.
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Feb 19, 2014 23:07
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How much would acknowledging the actual inflation rate save? Selling dollars at a shop discount to what they're actually worth just to claim their inflation statistics are accurate can't be doing the government any favors.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:27
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Ardennes posted:Depends on what you mean by save since the real cost of those items would go up. I assume you are talking about markets/house hold goods. Also that the government selling currency at the official exchange rate probably costs a decent amount to supplement corruption, but I have no idea about volumes.
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Feb 20, 2014 02:03
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V. Illych L. posted:That's actually a point - why the discrepancy in the government response? The big Caracas demo seemed to go down fairly peacefully, what's the difference between that and the other ones? Is it just local paramilitaries/police chiefs being differently trigger-happy, or what? It sounds like the colectivos armados at least are acting semi-autonomously in how they're cracking down on demonstrators.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:15
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Doc Neutral posted:Who are these Colevtivos Armados, are they some government sactioned paramilitary thugs or are they part of some cartel the po-pos turn a blind eye to(sorry for being ignorant but I'd like to know)? My understanding is they're basically community based paramilitaries that the government helped establish. Sort of a local empowerment thing at first but it sounds like they're also meant to be parallel to the military and to support the government if a coup attempt happens. One of the Venezuelans would probably have an answer, but that's what I've read.
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Feb 20, 2014 19:31
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If I remember correctly, the United States refines most of Venezuela's crude oil already, and, due to its composition, is the only country where that's feasible. Is that the case or am I wrong/has that changed? All these posters claiming that the whole thing is backed by the US, couldn't the United States just put some sanctions in place and wreak havoc if they wanted to? Beyond providing some modest support for protesters, is there really a need for 11th dimensional CIA chess when the US already has access to Venezuela's most valuable resource and can pull the trigger whenever they want?
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Feb 20, 2014 19:38
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Omi-Polari posted:
I agree with you. The US isn't going to overthrow Maduro, but a lot of posters keep coming in and claiming that this whole thing is some mysterious, US backed conspiracy to install a neo-liberal government. My point in discussing the oil issue is that the US already has access to Venezuela's oil and, through that, is basically holding a gun to the government's head. If they really wanted to, they could cite the violent crackdowns and impose sanctions and probably collapse Maduro's government, but people keep insisting on looking for poison in the food when the gun is already visible.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:15
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punk rebel ecks posted:Seems that the article was taken down. Good, Al Jazeera should be above that. It was still up for me. I like Al Jazeera in that they report on issues no other news organization will, but you need more than a few grains of salt for their opinion pieces a lot of the time.
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Feb 21, 2014 18:50
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Belen Fernandez is an excellent and incisive journalist and I've heard a lot of good things about her book on Thomas Friedman http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Mess...riedman+at+Work but if that piece upsets you enough there's plenty of stuff in the New York Times, The Economist, and Foreign Policy magazine to reinforce your preconceived conceptions of Venezuela. Just recently the Washinton Post had a great editorial calling for regime change and American intervention in Venezuela while lambasting Maduro for his paranoid conspiracy theories of the US working to overthrow the government. No, she's not, at least not in this case. I think anyone claiming this article represents the real situation without looking at the viewpoint of the protestors is approaching this with preconceived notions rather than the other way around. She is basically pushing a narrative where the whole thing is a US conspiracy and therefore the Venezuelan government is fine and the opposition is bad. There are multiple people in this thread who live or are from Venezuela and they have spoken about very real concerns about the availability of basic human necessities, a collapsing economy, press censorship, and extreme brutality. Many of them seem to be uncertain or against regime change as well. Even if the United States is supporting the protests, and certainly there are parties in the US which want a regime change, any article about the protests which ignores or discounts the very real problems that have lead to the protests and the injustices the government has executed against protesters is a bad one. There are examples of governments in Latin America that are doing an excellent job of managing their countries while following socialism. It seems like a lot of people are defending Venezuela because they feel an attack on their political agenda is happening without considering if it's worth their defense.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:19
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Install Windows posted:The thing is the the opposition as such is very fragmented, and doesn't seem to agree on much besides 'don't have everything run solely by PSUV' and 'Maduro is a dick'. That's why I phrased it as "PSUV not getting a majority" rather than the opposition getting a majority, as the opposition will likely split as soon as that happens. The only way to get a working legislative majority is going to be groups teaming up with pretty sizeable chunks of the PSUV. It sounds like the only thing the opposition can agree on and would be generally viewed as a favorable outcome is for Maduro to back off on censoring the media, state supported violence, setting up "parallel" governments when the opposition does win, etc. A lot of the other problems, those involving security and economy, don't have clear answers other than Maduro's been doing a bad job.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:40
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Finnin posted:The fumes of insanity that continue to emanate from your mouth are intoxicating. Holy gently caress how do you live with yourself? Yeah, whenever I read poo poo like that, I can't help but think that no matter how much I may sympathize with many of their views, I should never support actual leftists from getting power in this country.
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Apr 5, 2014 05:48
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Rogue0071 posted:Equating babychoom with all "actual leftists" is about as stupid as his equation of all Venezuelan protesters with fascists. Yeah, it's more an emotional reaction. Though he's a useful reminder of what sort of people dream of violent revolution.
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Apr 5, 2014 06:20
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Chuck Boone posted:
What a nice way to start a dialogue.
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Apr 11, 2014 17:07
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Sometimes I wish it was possible to embed music in people's avatars so Babychoom's could play "Holiday in Cambodia". There's been a lot of protests, but very little violence from the opposition, yet your reaction is that they should be grateful that they're not being shot in the streets? As for participating in the process, that's sort of hard when the government is more interested in using them as a scapegoat.
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May 1, 2014 20:57
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I don't think he ever had the realization that most sensible leftists had which is that any government that declares a large portion of its populace to be enemies in order to sustain itself is probably a really bad one, regardless of what it calls itself on the political spectrum.
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May 2, 2014 17:03
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Remember that people can have all sorts of reasons for opposing a government, and not all resistance is to government is unhealthy to the government or a country. More so, peoples' stances towards a government can change back and forth depending on the actions. Declaring segments of the population to be enemies of the state kills any chance for healthy change to be instigated by opposition. Second, the enemies of a government or political party are not necessarily the enemies of a country; often the goal when political parties declare enemies is to falsely equivocate the two. Third, time and time again we've seen that institutions which deal with "enemies" tend to be self-sustaining. When they might otherwise become unnecessary, they find new enemies to sustain themselves. Finally, a proper government should be for everyone in a country, not just those that agree with its ideology. Also, the vast majority of the time, when a government goes on a witch hunt they're trying to distract from their own fuckups.
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May 2, 2014 22:07
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I consider myself left wing, but I've never had fantasies about dragging reactionaries off to Kublinka's basement to be shot in the back of the head, so maybe I'm a bad one.
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May 2, 2014 22:59
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BabyChoom posted:I have yet to see you post anything that isn't partisan horse poo poo that isn't jack off material to WW3. Well, other then you calling people names and belittling those that don't agree with your bloodlust, pure hate, and ignorance. When you turn my worlds as calling meat sweats "a neonazi" (which he could be) Yes I agree that posters that express bloodlust, pure hate, and ign.... BabyChoom posted:First off liberal is a catch all term for political D-bag. Second off, if this was a leftist dictatorship then everyone would have a government job by now. oops the only moral bloodlust is your bloodlust?
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May 19, 2014 23:18
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The fact that he was a bus driver is pretty independent from the fact that he is a terrible, incompetent, borderline crazy leader with authoritarian tendencies. I'm not sure it's really relevant at all to this thread.
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May 19, 2014 23:24
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Are you saying an article that claims that Venezuela's political system is a threat to capitalism rather than a terrible mess that discredits socialism, that coups and conspiracies against the Venezuelan government are real rather than a convenient excuse to imprison opposition members and distract from an imploding economy and society, and that Obama is using sanctions against Venezuela to distract from internal problems when I doubt more than 1% of Americans are even aware of Venezuela's problems is... good?
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Mar 19, 2015 22:06
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This is the dude that wrote that article. Here's a link to a book he wrote: http://www.amazon.com/We-Created-Ch...ccariello-Maher He's a sad little post-modern academic engaging in a weird type of left wing imperialism, where, instead of countries being expected to provide raw goods and cheap labor with no regard for their own people, countries are expected to provide an anti-American narrative, also with no regard for their own people or their wishes. It's the same reason why so many left-wingers love Putin and support the invasion of the Ukraine. It doesn't matter that Russia is even more of a capitalist kleptocracy than the US, they're oppressing homosexual and minorities, and they're killing thousands and making tens of thousands homeless in the Ukraine, or that they're threatening global stability. They're sticking it to the US. This guy focuses on how these sanctions relate to America and pays no attention to the persecution of the opposition beyond them being an extension of America. For a leftist academic, you'd think he'd at least touch upon the human rights abuses, but this is a man with an agenda, not an opinion formulated from facts. To him, Venezuela and the fact that things are very bad for the people there means nothing, getting attention as a man fighting the excesses of American imperialism from atop the ivory tower means everything. What's hilarious is, as Zeroisanumber said, America can break Venezuela any time it wants to by refusing to refine Venezuelan oil, since I believe we're still the only country that has the refineries capable of handling it. We're not going to do that because Venezuela really isn't an ideological threat and it would cause the amount of human suffering there to explode before it brought the government down. Sometimes a few minor sanctions are just what they appear to be - a few minor sanctions. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Mar 19, 2015 |
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Mar 19, 2015 22:50
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Nintendo Kid posted:To clarify, there is, I believe, one or two other countries that can refine it. But they're both half way around the world with all the attendant expense involved. And since Venezuela's transport fuel is 99% refined int he US, having to switch to the one or two other places globally that can refine it could mean suddenly going weeks before refined product comes back. Ah, ok. I imagine capacity would be an issue as well?
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Mar 19, 2015 22:59
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Borneo Jimmy posted:So Venezuelans have had no choice in the matter? Like there hasn't been internationally monitored elections and grassroots support And the arrest and torture of protestors, shutdown of independent media, arrest and torture of opposition figures, removal of opposition figures from elected posts, intimidation by government sponsored gangs, etc, etc...
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Mar 20, 2015 00:45
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Tony_Montana posted:American leftists are the worst. They combine the traditional difficulties that Americans have at grasping the dynamics, culture and their general ignorance of other countries with the ideological biases and mental gymnastics that the leftists have worldwide. Then you get the previously pointed out scenario of academics in whose eyes lovely, repressive regimes are A-Ok so long as they have a general anti-American position.dwam ideologically aligned with you and also because your backwards government is an acceptable effort from your country. Here, let me pat you in the back." (Imagine Oliver Stone, Sean Penn, the crazy U. Penn professor in the plane, etc). I used to consider myself a leftist, but I kept seeing leftists justify things like torture, repression, and plenty of other things I thought we shouldn't support in the name of an anti-capitalist and anti-America agenda. I tried to justify it to myself by saying they were misguided or not really leftists, but then I realized I was just pulling a no true Scotsman fallacy to comfort myself. So I decided I wasn't a leftist anymore. It's made life clearer. Edit: My point is I think a lot of leftists, especially younger ones, haven't reached that point. When they do, they'll break themselves away from the groupthink or they'll double down and become another example of a bankrupt ideology. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 01:05
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Lol as if the United States government and the beltway pundit class haven't been guilty of this way way more. Tu quoque sure makes it easy to keep your standards low. And, once again, Venezuela's problems are less important than sticking it to the US.
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Mar 20, 2015 01:18
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Borneo Jimmy posted:BTW way more people have been tortured by the U.S. and it's client regimes than whatever number is alleged by the Venezuelan opposition, but yeah keep raging against those leftists responsible for so much injustice throughout the world. Tuuuuuuuuuuuuu quoque. Blah blah Stalin blah blah Mao. What does the behavior of the US have to do with the Venezuelan government being bad? Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 20, 2015 |
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Mar 20, 2015 01:42
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Perhaps another nation or race should send the "best ye breed" to lift up those "half devil and half child" people and civilize them. Isn't Tony Montana, in fact, Venezuelan? Anyhow, have we moved from Tu Quoque to strawmen now? SedanChair posted:Probably that it's seen as ridiculous to casually suggest the leader of the US should be deposed as a result of being bad. But in Venezuela's case it's seen as a Serious Proposal. In some quarters I suppose it is, but I think most folks here understand it's a bad idea for a lot of reasons, including the fact there's no group ready to replace him or any real plan for the country afterwards.
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Mar 20, 2015 18:17
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SedanChair posted:You're not exactly reassuring me here. I don't think I can reassure you. FeedingHam2Cats posted:Who cares if he's Venezuelan? Would you claim that the Koch brothers speak the truth about American society when they claim it's overridden with weak willed welfare queens and demand that "wealth creators" have even less regulation and more power over employees? Borneo Jimmy was implying that Tony Montana's statement was a racist rant, I was pointing out that was silly. I don't know enough about Venezuela to say whether Tony's statement is valid or not. Nintendo Kid posted:I've said it before but I honestly think Cuba's government could do a good job administering Venezuela. No idea, I just hope there's someone competent out there. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 00:28
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Yes because there is no racial divide in Latin America, especially in Venezuela. Uh huh. You just said: Borneo Jimmy posted:Perhaps another nation or race should send the "best ye breed" to lift up those "half devil and half child" people and civilize them. Which is pretty much saying that you're dismissing his comments as those of a racist foreigner. Now, you could've done the intellectually honest thing and argued about his statement being classist, or even trying to understand how Maduro's policies have caused class issues to explode, but that strawman was too drat easy to pass up, right?
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Mar 21, 2015 01:04
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Okay please explain this, I really wanna hear how class divisions in Venezuela are the fault of the poor. Where did I say that they were the fault of the poor?
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Mar 21, 2015 01:12
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I thank Math Debater for his opinions and hope he enjoyed posting in this thread.
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Mar 21, 2015 06:47
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Do you have an issue with Jacobin other than it's political leanings? The fact that it twists some facts horribly and exaggerates others to justify its leanings. Borneo Jimmy posted:Well who do you think supports Maduro? Quit trying to twist what I said around. I blame Maduro and his cronies for the mess that the country is in. Did poor people support Chavez originally? Sure they did, he was promising to improve things for them. Now, Maduro's approval rating is estimated to be at about 20% and the country is falling apart. A lot of the poor have lost faith, especially since many of the programs have failed to deliver while prices have exploded, but there isn't a plan to get them out of this mess. I'll be upfront about my own viewpoint. I only know what I read in the news, read in this thread, hear from co-workers with Venezuelan relatives, and occasionally hear from someone in Venezuela. I sure as hell don't fully understand what's going on there, what it's like, or what can be done about it. I'm just following things because I do know a lot of people from South America and it's important to me. Usually I do that silently. It just offends me when someone else who is clearly an outsider waltzes in and tries to twist things to support an obvious agenda or pretends to know better than everyone else, because it cheapens the experiences of those who're actually going through it. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 21:54
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Better stop reading the Washington Post and similar outfits then. Actually, I'm a socialist. Just the boring, egalitarian sort of socialist that likes making sure everyone gets health care, education, and their needs met, and doesn't really care much for shouting on TV about the enemies of the people. I dislike authoritarian, kleptocratic governments no matter what banner they wave around, and I don't care much for the idiots who support them just because of that banner. Honestly, I really recommend you step back and reconsider your worldview a bit. There's more nuance to the world than for us or against us, more to socially and economically progressive ideology than being anti-American, and more important things to a government than what ideology they claim to follow. What they actually do, for instance. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 21, 2015 |
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Mar 21, 2015 23:24
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Okay let's put this in context The context is that you are mentally incapable of separating "American issues" from "Non-American issues"
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Mar 22, 2015 03:56
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Effectronica posted:Fishmech, Borneo Jimmy is a dumbass, but he was specifically referring to someone talking about how Chavistas are bad because they use crude language and act like thugs. His response is still Americentric, but you're also misrepresenting the context. Yeah, the problem was that he was using words stated by a non-American about a non-American political group and claiming it was racist because groups in the US have said similar things about black politicians. It's not that words like thug haven't been dogwhistles before, but they also apply to people who ride around on motorcycles and open fire on anti-government protestors or just beat the poo poo out of them while security forces stand by. Borneo Jimmy posted:So you believe there is no racism in Latin America? Where did I say there wasn't? The class issues are more important in this scenario, but, as I've said, they're more complex than just "these guys are good and these are bad". Anyways, would you please stop grasping at straws? They're not going to win you any points. You're embarrassing yourself. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Mar 22, 2015 |
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Mar 22, 2015 04:08
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