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objects in mirror posted:This is just as ugly a statement as telling a gay man that he's gay because women won't touch him. Shame on you. You might feel like Badge telling you to eat a bullet was some sort of hyperbole for the sake of internet argument. To be perfectly clear, the world would be a better place were you to take a gun and blow your brains out. There are also many other options available to you I'd be happy to suggest more if you need ideas for how to make this world just a little bit of a better place. 
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Jun 14, 2016 03:13
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fishmech posted:Acetaminophen is also one of the few painkillers/fever reducers that people with a wide range of other conditions can take - ibuprofen, aspirin, and most other OTC level pain medications can have disastrous consequences. If it didn't have that aspect, we probably would have banned acetaminophen from mass market sales! Acetaminophen itself is very useful but pre-combining it with other things is really stupid. Acetaminophen has no earthly reason for being in cough syrup short of pure convenience. Banning pre-combined OTC preparations would be the sensible thing to do, but because drug bans aren't about preventing harm in the first place, it hasn't been done. quote:They are not really extremely well funded, and a lot of LGBT fundraising is for direct aid to members of the community. Often for things like homeless shelters and other services where it's still legal for governments and other organizations to not serve people who need help just because they're gay. Local level organizations get funding based on the local community but national LGBT organizations get plenty of funding. Per http://www.charitynavigator.org HRC pulled in 15m in charitable donations in the last year they have tracked. Compare this to Norml (completely absurd, of course) who pulled in less than $500,000. The ACLU pulls in 80m/yr (though admittedly not all of this goes to LGBT activism, they do spend more than HRC does according to their website) There is a lot of money that goes into LGBT charities! This is certainly a far cry from where it was ten years ago.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:17
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objects in mirror posted:Again, the desire to partake of marijuana can be as passionate and encompassing as the desire for a same sex relationship, I'm not sure why you keep belittling this stance and it strikes me as prejudiced and intolerant as distaste for homosexuals. Actually, shitstain, the real prejudice and intolerance lies equivocating the consumption of a non-addictive drug with innate human sexualities that have been discriminated against for thousands of years. You are a disgrace to society, and it would be better were you not a part of it.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:19
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Mirthless posted:Acetaminophen itself is very useful but pre-combining it with other things is really stupid. Acetaminophen has no earthly reason for being in cough syrup short of pure convenience. Banning pre-combined OTC preparations would be the sensible thing to do, but because drug bans aren't about preventing harm in the first place, it hasn't been done. Uh, the very purpose of cough syrup is "pure convenience" so that seems like a weird reason to look down on its use. And no, lots of drugs are in fact banned from sale to prevent harm. That's like, the entire reason that the FDA requires testing of drugs, so that we aren't all taking drugs that kinda worked to fix symptom X in mice but turned out to cause something horrible in humans! There are tons more drugs banned for being harmful "legit medicine" than there are drugs banned because they're recreational things that Nixonian assholes didn't approve of. The ACLU isn't an LGBT charity, LGBT stuff is only one minor facet. And really it's not like giving all the ACLU's money to NORML would have solved anything.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:22
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Rollofthedice posted:Actually, shitstain, the real prejudice and intolerance lies equivocating the consumption of a non-addictive drug with innate human sexualities that have been discriminated against for thousands of years. Here we see why social justice causes are in fact zero sum, because they become wrapped up in identity politics and people go "my issue is paramount and important" even when they're sufficiently being addressed and selfishly advocate for the hogging of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:25
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objects in mirror posted:Here we see why social justice causes are in fact zero sum, because they become wrapped up in identity politics and people go "my issue is paramount and important" even when they're sufficiently being addressed and selfishly advocate for the hogging of resources that could be better spent elsewhere. sufficiently being addressed? tell that to transgendered individuals, unable to use the bathrooms they wish. Tell that to the victims of Orlando. Tell that to the closest cliff to you before you jump off of it, you irredeemable pile of FYGM sentiment composed into the vague shape of a person with dogshit for brains.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:31
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objects in mirror posted:Here we see why social justice causes are in fact zero sum, because they become wrapped up in identity politics and people go "my issue is paramount and important" even when they're sufficiently being addressed and selfishly advocate for the hogging of resources that could be better spent elsewhere. I'm sure the 49 dead people in Orlando, all the homeless LGBTQ youth, the people fired or thrown out of their homes for being gay, are happy to know you think their causes are being sufficiently addressed, you piece of garbage. Mirthless posted:Local level organizations get funding based on the local community but national LGBT organizations get plenty of funding. Per http://www.charitynavigator.org HRC pulled in 15m in charitable donations in the last year they have tracked. Compare this to Norml (completely absurd, of course) who pulled in less than $500,000. The ACLU pulls in 80m/yr (though admittedly not all of this goes to LGBT activism, they do spend more than HRC does according to their website) There is a lot of money that goes into LGBT charities! This is certainly a far cry from where it was ten years ago. So what do you think they should have done instead of taking that money? Do you think the fight for gay rights is over?
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Jun 14, 2016 03:33
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Badger of Basra posted:I'm sure the 49 dead people in Orlando, all the homeless LGBTQ youth, the people fired or thrown out of their homes for being gay, are happy to know you think their causes are being sufficiently addressed, you piece of garbage. Thank you for bringing up the rampant issue of homelessness among LGBTQ individuals. I'm kicking myself for not mentioning it previously. It's an issue that's often ignored, and deserves to be brought up if we're cataloguing the many problems still facing gay individuals today. Chelb fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 03:34
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Rollofthedice posted:sufficiently being addressed? tell that to transgendered individuals, unable to use the bathrooms they wish. I'm sorry, but this is pretty ridiculous. More harm is coming to society due to marijuana prohibition than stems from a very tiny minority of people with possible mental issues not being allowed to use the restrooms of the opposite sex.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:36
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objects in mirror posted:I'm sorry, but this is pretty ridiculous. More harm is coming to society due to marijuana prohibition than stems from a very tiny minority of people with possible mental issues not being allowed to use the restrooms of the opposite sex. This is some pathetic trolling.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:37
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fishmech posted:Uh, the very purpose of cough syrup is "pure convenience" so that seems like a weird reason to look down on its use. uh what are you talking about? cough syrup isn't acetaminophen. They just put that poo poo in there as a fever reducer so they can market it as a one hit superdrug. It's horribly dangerous to put acetaminophen in cough syrup because people tend to just drink the poo poo, even when they're not trying to deliberately abuse it. Cough syrup is usually Dextromethorphan or Codeine/Promethazine. Acetaminophen does not belong in either preparation. quote:And no, lots of drugs are in fact banned from sale to prevent harm. That's like, the entire reason that the FDA requires testing of drugs, so that we aren't all taking drugs that kinda worked to fix symptom X in mice but turned out to cause something horrible in humans! There are tons more drugs banned for being harmful "legit medicine" than there are drugs banned because they're recreational things that Nixonian assholes didn't approve of. The FDA doesn't ban drugs that don't make it through clinical trials. They just refuse to legalize their sale as a drug. There is a reason research chemicals crop up - something has to be banned deliberately, on purpose. The overwhelming majority of the things that have been banned deliberately were banned because of their recreational use. quote:The ACLU isn't an LGBT charity, LGBT stuff is only one minor facet. And really it's not like giving all the ACLU's money to NORML would have solved anything. It's really not a minor facet. It's a pretty big chunk. The ACLU spends a lot of resources on LGBT (justly, I might add) (*edit: figured i'd better be a little more broad I haven't looked at schedule 1 in a while)
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Jun 14, 2016 03:38
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"I couldn't possibly take this money, sir. We can get married now so there's not really anything left to do! We'll be winding the organization up shortly. Might I direct you to other worthy causes, such as NORML or the latest Gamergate kickstarter?"
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Jun 14, 2016 03:39
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Badger of Basra posted:I'm sure the 49 dead people in Orlando, all the homeless LGBTQ youth, the people fired or thrown out of their homes for being gay, are happy to know you think their causes are being sufficiently addressed, you piece of garbage. There's nothing the government can do about people being thrown out of their homes for being gay, just like there's nothing government can do about people being thrown out of their homes for smoking pot. What government can do is stop prosecuting homosexuals, which the Western nations have done, but they need to stop prosecuting marijuana aficionados as well. LBGTQ advocates are sucking up political capital and oxygen in the hope of creating a utopia where humans are all tolerant and accepting of gays and in the process perhaps block progress on other issues that actually stem from direct government action. Rollofthedice posted:This is some pathetic trolling. Splutter.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:41
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Rollofthedice posted:sufficiently being addressed? tell that to transgendered individuals, unable to use the bathrooms they wish. Tell that to the victims of Orlando. Because people with minority drug preferences/addictions have never been systematically and deliberately mistreated, discriminated against, denied medical care, harassed and murdered etc? You're on the same side fool.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:41
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dupe
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Jun 14, 2016 03:42
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Badger of Basra posted:So what do you think they should have done instead of taking that money? Do you think the fight for gay rights is over? Mirthless posted:Again. I never said anything of the sort. You're taking this point to an ideological conclusion when I am stopping way short of that. I never said anything should or shouldn't be done with anything. I was playing devil's advocate.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:43
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Rollofthedice posted:Thank you for bringing up the rampant issue of homelessness among LGBTQ individuals. I'm kicking myself for not mentioning it previously. I completely agree but I'm still pretty sure that's not what the drug legalization thread is here for. And talking about basic constituational freedoms is gonna involve some comparisons you might just have to get the gently caress over. Killhour you have the right to ingest literally anything you want in the privacy of your own closet but that doesn't give you the right to a market to buy it in. You just have to make it yourself. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 03:44
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KingEup posted:Because people with minority drug preferences/addictions have never been systematically and deliberately mistreated, discriminated against, denied medical care, harassed and murdered etc? This would be a good or at least better point, if we were not at the moment discussing marijuana specifically. Users of which have been discriminated against, yes, but not in a way that calls for equivocating discrimination against weed users and discrimination against LGBTQ individuals. Nevvy Z posted:I completely agree but I'm still pretty sure that's not what the drug legalization thread is here for. And talking about basic constituational freedoms is gonna involve some comparisons you might just have to get the gently caress over. I don't happen to be the one who first compared marijuana prohibition to LGBTQ rights. Chelb fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 03:45
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Mirthless posted:I never said anything should or shouldn't be done with anything. I was playing devil's advocate. And you thought today was a good day to do that why?
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Jun 14, 2016 03:45
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Badger of Basra posted:And you thought today was a good day to do that why? I admonished him in the first post I made on the subject for that very reason I was simply trying to explain what I perceived to be the point in his lovely argument.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:48
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Rollofthedice posted:This would be a good or at least better point, if we were not at the moment discussing marijuana specifically. No you are egging on the insane people and their stupid lovely oppression olympic slapfight. Jesus christ. Badger of Basra posted:And you thought today was a good day to do that why? Because you are just some psycho on the internet who is making up insane poo poo about people because of your own issues. Well, that's why I'd be trolling you about pedantic facts.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:50
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Mirthless posted:uh I'm talking about the primary usage of cough syrup, which is people buying it as an "all in one" thing to take for many minor illnesses. I mean let's face it: cough syrup really doesn't do too much to suppress coughs even if that's what it's nominally for. If we didn't already ahve modern cough syrup and it was being newly introduced today, it'd probably be branded as like "cold syrup" or something. And no, just drinking a whole bottle of cough syrup over the course of a few days every once in a while isn't a major danger, nor is it common except with particularly small bottles. Refusing to legalize their sale as a drug effectively blocks them out of reach and bans them. Very few people are going to black market import or synthesize Generic Failed Blood Cholesterol Medicine or some random attempt at a new arthritits drug that turned out to not alleviate any symptoms nor come up with a useful side effect for off label use. I mean where exactly do you think people are buying random rejected medicines in the first place? They're not for sale because they're not allowed to be for sale, that's a ban. There's been less than 2500 new medicines approved by the FDA since it was founded, and quite a bit more than that have been worked on and attempted to take to trial, or have made some trials and failed others, in that time - leaving them unapproved, illegal to sell on the human market, and thus banned. I'll mention again, very few people have the time, skill, resources, will, and desire to manufacture most of those rejected drugs at that. Being a big chunk doesn't make it make sense to count all of the ACLU's money as going to LGBT stuff - especially when it's mostly been donated to the general goal of rights in general. fishmech fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 03:51
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Rollofthedice posted:Thank you for bringing up the rampant issue of homelessness among LGBTQ individuals. I'm kicking myself for not mentioning it previously. There's a really excellent book on this called Kicked Out by Sassafras Lowrey. It's really heartbreaking to read through though, full of firsthand accounts from kids in these very situations.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:54
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LorrdErnie posted:There's a really excellent book on this called Kicked Out by Sassafras Lowrey. It's really heartbreaking to read through though, full of firsthand accounts from kids in these very situations. Thanks for the rec.
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Jun 14, 2016 03:55
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Nevvy Z posted:No you are egging on the insane people and their stupid lovely oppression olympic slapfight. Jesus christ. Hmm yes daring to suggest that the horrible horrible oppression pot smokers face isn't quite equal to the situations LGBTQ individuals are in the day after one of those two groups was targeted with the deadliest mass shooting in US history is definitely useless oppression olympics. 
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Jun 14, 2016 03:58
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Rollofthedice posted:This would be a good or at least better point, if we were not at the moment discussing marijuana specifically, which has only been systematically prohibited for the last century. Laws that criminalise same sex sex and laws that criminalise cannabis consumption both wrong and morally egregious for the same reason. They both violate the equal liberty and equal protection principle. Here is a whole paper on the subject: https://wpsa.research.pdx.edu/meet/2012/carcieri.pdf Entering into a debate about who has been victimised for longer is pointless. Both groups are being victimised for essentially the same reason and be equally supportive of each groups struggle for justice.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:02
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fishmech posted:I'm talking about the primary usage of cough syrup, which is people buying it as an "all in one" thing to take for many minor illnesses. I mean let's face it: cough syrup really doesn't do too much to suppress coughs even if that's what it's nominally for. And no, just drinking a whole bottle of cough syrup over the course of a few days every once in a while isn't a major danger, nor is it common except with particularly small bottles. The primary usage of cough syrup to relieve the effects of a cough or cold. DXM suppresses the poo poo out of coughs. Promethazine eliminates nausea and Codeine is a pain reliever, and in the case of a bad sore throat pain is often the source of the cough in the first place. I get strep infections yearly. I am well intimated with the usage of cough syrup. If you drink a whole bottle of extra strength cough syrup with Acetaminophen in it you need to get to a loving hospital immediately because you just took a dose large enough to severely damage your liver. The harm in acetaminophen is in it's perceived safety. It shouldn't be pre-mixed with cough syrup. There is no point. If they really want to package them together, bundle a bottle of tylenol with the cough syrup. quote:Refusing to legalize their sale as a drug effectively blocks them out of reach and bans them. Very few people are going to black market import or synthesize Generic Failed Blood Cholesterol Medicine or some random attempt at a new arthritits drug that turned out to not alleviate any symptoms nor come up with a useful side effect for off label use. I mean where exactly do you think people are buying random rejected medicines in the first place? They're not for sale because they're not allowed to be for sale, that's a ban. There's been less than 2500 new medicines approved by the FDA since it was founded, and quite a bit more than that have been worked on and attempted to take to trial, or have made some trials and failed others, in that time - leaving them unapproved, illegal to sell on the human market, and thus banned. That's not a ban! A ban requires enforcement and consequence. The only thing that is being enforced here is a prohibition of sale as a drug. I am not at all opposed to the prohibition of the retail sale of many, if not most drugs. There's a difference between making something hard to get and making it illegal to have. quote:Being a big chunk doesn't make it make sense to count all of the ACLU's money as going to LGBT stuff - especially when it's mostly been donated to the general goal of rights in general. I specifically said they didn't spend all of their money on LGBT stuff! It is my understanding that they spend more than HRC, so the point of the number was to illustrate that it is somewhere between point a and point b. It would be foolish to imply that the majority of the ACLU's spending is on LGBT issues. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jun 14, 2016 |
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Jun 14, 2016 04:03
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objects in mirror posted:There's nothing the government can do about people being thrown out of their homes for being gay, just like there's nothing government can do about people being thrown out of their homes for smoking pot. What government can do is stop prosecuting homosexuals, which the Western nations have done, but they need to stop prosecuting marijuana aficionados as well. LBGTQ advocates are sucking up political capital and oxygen in the hope of creating a utopia where humans are all tolerant and accepting of gays and in the process perhaps block progress on other issues that actually stem from direct government action. You should probably stop trying to draw an equivalency between these two things, since pot smokers haven't faced nearly the same degree of persecution as LGBT people, for utterly immutable aspects of their being.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:06
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KingEup posted:Laws that criminalise same sex sex and laws that criminalise cannabis consumption both wrong and morally egregious for the same reason. They both violate the equal liberty and equal protection principle. Here is a whole paper on the subject: https://wpsa.research.pdx.edu/meet/2012/carcieri.pdf Marijuana smokers and gay people are not victimized for essentially the same reason. People being put into prison for marijuana possession or sale is certainly an injustice but it really isn't particularly difficult to see how your argument is incredibly offensive. Nobody is gunning down pot smokers for being pot smokers.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:09
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LorrdErnie posted:Hmm yes daring to suggest that the horrible horrible oppression pot smokers face isn't quite equal to the situations LGBTQ individuals are in the day after one of those two groups was targeted with the deadliest mass shooting in US history is definitely useless oppression olympics. quote:In February 2003, the Thai government, under then Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, launched a 'war on drugs', purportedly aimed at the suppression of drug trafficking and the prevention of drug use. In fact, a major outcome of this policy was arbitrary killings. In the first three months of the campaign there were some 2800 extrajudicial killings. In 2007, an official investigation found that more than half of those killed had no connection whatsoever to drugs.1 Apart from the thousands who lost their lives, thousands more were forced into coercive "treatment" for drug addiction.2 https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/12/thailands-war-drugs Are you aware about what's about to take place in the Philipines?
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Jun 14, 2016 04:11
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objects in mirror posted:Here we see why social justice causes are in fact zero sum, because they become wrapped up in identity politics and people go "my issue is paramount and important" even when they're sufficiently being addressed and selfishly advocate for the hogging of resources that could be better spent elsewhere. Uh, you were the one who initially couched it as zero-sum, where recognizing LGBT rights implicitly means we can't also push for marijuana decriminalization: objects in mirror posted:I'm not saying to be provocative or offensive, but it's curious how an issue like gay marriage can become part of the Democratic party platform and yet most Democratic politicians are very resistant to taking up favoring marijuana legalization KingEup posted:Laws that criminalise same sex sex and laws that criminalise cannabis consumption both wrong and morally egregious for the same reason. They both violate the equal liberty and equal protection principle. Are you...under the impression that one can be born a pothead, as one can be born gay? 
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Jun 14, 2016 04:12
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Majorian posted:You should probably stop trying to draw an equivalency between these two things, since pot smokers haven't faced nearly the same degree of persecution as LGBT people, for utterly immutable aspects of their being. More total harm has been done to society in the past 60 years because of drug prohibition than because of anti-gay agitation. In fact the numbers of lives ruined because of marijuana is probably greater than the number of lives ruined because of prejudice against homosexuals, which are a tiny minority of which a substantial number has a hard time growing up in an intolerant society. 8.8 million people were arrested for marijuana from 2001 to 2010. The total harm imposed on society because of that can be argued to be greater than if in the same period 1 million people faced homelessness (usually a temporary condition) due to homophobia, or at the very least we can see these as being equivalent harms. Stressing that homosexuality is immutable and drug usage is merely a preference gives a tacit justification to the punishment those 8.8 million people received as if to say "break the law and pay the price" which is quite hosed up IMO.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:18
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KingEup posted:https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/12/thailands-war-drugs What the gently caress does the Philippines have to do with this? I assumed we were discussing US drug laws????
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Jun 14, 2016 04:19
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objects in mirror posted:More total harm has been done to society in the past 60 years because of drug prohibition than because of anti-gay agitation. In fact the numbers of lives ruined because of marijuana is probably greater than the number of lives ruined because of prejudice against homosexuals, which are a tiny minority of which a substantial number has a hard time growing up in an intolerant society. 8.8 million people were arrested for marijuana from 2001 to 2010. The total harm imposed on society because of that can be argued to be greater than if in the same period 1 million people faced homelessness (usually a temporary condition) due to homophobia, or at the very least we can see these as being equivalent harms. Stressing that homosexuality is immutable and drug usage is merely a preference gives a tacit justification to the punishment those 8.8 million people received as if to say "break the law and pay the price" which is quite hosed up IMO. uhhhhh
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Jun 14, 2016 04:20
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objects in mirror posted:More total harm has been done to society in the past 60 years because of drug prohibition than because of anti-gay agitation. In fact the numbers of lives ruined because of marijuana is probably greater than the number of lives ruined because of prejudice against homosexuals, which are a tiny minority of which a substantial number has a hard time growing up in an intolerant society. You're going to have to back this up with evidence, because I'm pretty sure you're talking out of your rear end here.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:21
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KingEup posted:https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/12/thailands-war-drugs I really don't think you actually want to compare the global situations of pot smokers and the LGBTQ community but then you do seem to be a moron so I guess you actually might. I'm not going to look through the enormous well of misery to illustrate to you how much of a losing argument that would be it doesn't really seem necessary. It would be kinda like putting together sources to prove that the sun is in fact larger than the earth.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:22
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Mirthless posted:I assumed we were discussing US drug laws???? How would that matter? The fight for GLBTI and drug user rights is global the last I checked.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:23
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objects in mirror posted:More total harm has been done to society in the past 60 years because of drug prohibition than because of anti-gay agitation. In fact the numbers of lives ruined because of marijuana is probably greater than the number of lives ruined because of prejudice against homosexuals, which are a tiny minority of which a substantial number has a hard time growing up in an intolerant society. 8.8 million people were arrested for marijuana from 2001 to 2010. The total harm imposed on society because of that can be argued to be greater than if in the same period 1 million people faced homelessness (usually a temporary condition) due to homophobia, or at the very least we can see these as being equivalent harms. Stressing that homosexuality is immutable and drug usage is merely a preference gives a tacit justification to the punishment those 8.8 million people received as if to say "break the law and pay the price" which is quite hosed up IMO. hmm interesting point but have your considered killing youreself (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2016 04:24
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objects in mirror posted:More total harm has been done to society in the past 60 years because of drug prohibition than because of anti-gay agitation. In fact the numbers of lives ruined because of marijuana is probably greater than the number of lives ruined because of prejudice against homosexuals, which are a tiny minority of which a substantial number has a hard time growing up in an intolerant society. 8.8 million people were arrested for marijuana from 2001 to 2010. The total harm imposed on society because of that can be argued to be greater than if in the same period 1 million people faced homelessness (usually a temporary condition) due to homophobia, or at the very least we can see these as being equivalent harms. Stressing that homosexuality is immutable and drug usage is merely a preference gives a tacit justification to the punishment those 8.8 million people received as if to say "break the law and pay the price" which is quite hosed up IMO. Also, by the way, it shows extremely poor taste on your part to make this brain-dead argument one day after 49 people were shot and killed because they were lgbt. What in God's name is wrong with you?
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Jun 14, 2016 04:26
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LorrdErnie posted:I really don't think you actually want to compare the global situations of pot smokers and the LGBTQ community but then you do seem to be a moron so I guess you actually might. I'm not going to look through the enormous well of misery to illustrate to you how much of a losing argument that would be it doesn't really seem necessary. It would be kinda like putting together sources to prove that the sun is in fact larger than the earth. Holy gently caress the GLBTI community marched in Sydney (Australia) for the rights of drug users and helped establish our first drug consumption room because they saw the parallels with their own struggle. It would be loving bizarre for anyone in the queer rights movement in this country to diminish the importance of drug user rights. Drug users and the GLBTI communities are natural allies.
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Jun 14, 2016 04:28
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