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the black husserl posted:I find it really tiresome that both 'factions' are such laughable cliches. Well, you see, it's a metaphor for American politics, and uh, you know, I like South Park a lot, they're really the great social commentators of our times, and you see, the... the truth is in uh... the truth is in the middle, y'know? I think half the problem is marketing and making it appeal to as wide a playerbase as possible, hence the caricatures.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:11
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They're afraid of making the game too smart because smart stuff turns off dumb people and dumb people buy video games! Or something. That also explains Elizabeth's magical expanding bust.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:14
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the black husserl posted:I find it really tiresome that both 'factions' are such laughable cliches. You are in a world where the US built a giant sky-city to go around sneering at other nations and where a giant fish-eagle in leather is the guardian of a time-altering teenager and the factions being on the nose surprises you? It's a game about big stupid points that are worth thinking about because these views did exist in a very, very massive way and still exist today in many respects. But it's also worth keeping in mind that the factions exist to facilitate you freezing them in mid-air with your psychic drug-powers and then blowing their brains out with a Jazz Age shotgun. If they were reasonable people they probably wouldn't do this. Also why did you quote factions? Are you not convinced they are factions?
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Oct 21, 2012 22:15
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Overflight posted:I'm afraid the OP is wrong in this regard. Ah, so Vigors are basically like guns with their magazines fused shut and you can toss away old ones if you find something you feel works better for you? That sounds far better than what I feared it was like. Samurai Sanders posted:But like I said, if it's anything like Bioshock 1 and 2, you won't really need those powers, the game will be perfectly fine without them, and furthermore not using them will get you an even bigger gameplay reward just maybe an hour later, so it's doubly pointless. Therefore, the only reason you would do that is if you are deliberately trying to make bad choices. Hopefully you will be allowed to use her powers at least some because some of the things she could do in the trailer looked fun. It could work that using her powers puts them in cooldown and if you force her to use them early, she takes damage based on remaining cooldown. Or that she takes damage only in storybased decision points. Who knows.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:18
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Really, how many characters besides Booker and Elizabeth have we seen so far? Complaining about the NPC factions in this game so far sounds like complaining about the background extras in a Hollywood film. They aren't meant to be characters, they're part of the setting.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:24
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the black husserl posted:I find it really tiresome that both 'factions' are such laughable cliches. It certainly seems unlikely that we'll get as good a look at these organizations to the degree that we got to see Ryan's objectivism and Lamb's cult of personality in the first two. This looks like it will boil down to "racism = bad" and "communism = also bad" without giving any depth.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:25
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Puistokemisti posted:
She does have a cool down on her powers. You can see this in action in the 15 minute gameplay trailer when Booker tries to call in a turret to take down the zeppelin. MoreLikeTen posted:It certainly seems unlikely that we'll get as good a look at these organizations to the degree that we got to see Ryan's objectivism and Lamb's cult of personality in the first two. This looks like it will boil down to "racism = bad" and "communism = also bad" without giving any depth. What are you basing this on? We've already been shown the leaders of the factions, they have faces and names and they talk to the player through the environment. What makes you think they won't play a bigger part in the story? Especially considering Bioshock 1?
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Oct 21, 2012 22:25
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I'm gonna play this and enjoy the poo poo out of it and not think about it too hard because it's an extremely video game-y video game.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:26
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Nilbop posted:You are in a world where the US built a giant sky-city to go around sneering at other nations and where a giant fish-eagle in leather is the guardian of a time-altering teenager and the factions being on the nose surprises you? It's a game about big stupid points that are worth thinking about because these views did exist in a very, very massive way and still exist today in many respects. But it's also worth keeping in mind that the factions exist to facilitate you freezing them in mid-air with your psychic drug-powers and then blowing their brains out with a Jazz Age shotgun. If they were reasonable people they probably wouldn't do this. You're right. Maybe I should just turn my brain off and enjoy it. Thats the problem with gamers these days. Too many on brains.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:30
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the black husserl posted:You're right. Maybe I should just turn my brain off and enjoy it. Thats the problem with gamers these days. Too many on brains. Why do you think the game's going to be black and white from an ethical standpoint? Bioshock 1 wasn't.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:33
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the black husserl posted:You're right. Maybe I should just turn my brain off and enjoy it. Thats the problem with gamers these days. Too many on brains. Uhh, the nature of Satire is generally one of extreme exaggeration. Even 1984 is guilty of this.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:33
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Why do you think the game's going to be black and white from an ethical standpoint? Bioshock 1 wasn't. I liked Bioshock 1 and dude are you seriously gonna say this.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:35
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Bioshock 1 worked because Objectivism itself is almost beyond parody with how ridiculous it and its followers are, but Infinite looks like "hurr cartoonish racism" vs. "hurr a 14 year-old's understanding of anarchy" Which is kind of ironic considering that Bioshock's only non-white character was the mad puppy-killing doctor.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:38
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computer parts posted:Uhh, the nature of Satire is generally one of extreme exaggeration. Even 1984 is guilty of this. Please don't drag Mr. Orwell into this. What shop do you guys think you'll be pre-ordering from? I've always been a Gamestop man, but I've been in an Amazon.com mood this year.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:38
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the black husserl posted:You're right. Maybe I should just turn my brain off and enjoy it. Thats the problem with gamers these days. Too many on brains. Somehow I doubt this. Brains on, minds closed, perhaps. ZackHoagie posted:I liked Bioshock 1 and dude are you seriously gonna say this. There's a lot of morally grey areas in Bioshock 1 - or perhaps to say there's a mix of the reprehensible along with the potentially or academically defensible. For one example, Ryan's objectivism isn't that bad when you think about the starting point of merit for one's honest work and talent; it gets corrupted when self-interest dominates a society of many parts.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:39
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ZackHoagie posted:I liked Bioshock 1 and dude are you seriously gonna say this. Sure, why not? It didn't ever say objectivism was bad or objectivism was good, it said that when you throw human beings into any rigid ideological system it breaks down. I personally strongly disagree with objectivism, but I never got the feeling that Bioshock 1 was preaching one way or the other, rather that people on the whole are flawed. Ryan, in his pursuit of the perfect system became as much of a tyrant as those he built Rapture to escape. The system wasn't the issue, it was Ryan's belief that he and he alone was capable of controlling it.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:39
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I don't get why political unrest is such a staple for Bioshock. It was a good backdrop for Rapture, but it seems really phoned in at this point. Especially since the series highlight is supposed to be good writing and interesting moral choices. And now the series is literally on rails. No thanks, I'll pass.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:39
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So during the game, you're the one who controls whether she uses her powers or not? It's not like in that scene before when she says "I'm not asking for your permission"? What I wouldn't give for more games where the things characters do in cutscenes lined up with what they did during gameplay.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:40
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Ryan, in his pursuit of the perfect system became as much of a tyrant as those he built Rapture to escape. Do you even realize how unbelievably shallow and stupid this is. It's saturday morning cartoons.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:42
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Brother Scrotum posted:I don't get why political unrest is such a staple for Bioshock. I don't see why a video game series shouldn't be doing more of this sort of thing with a triple A budget. I welcome it. Sure from the outside the factions might seem exaggerated and cartoonish, but when you're trying to sell people on ideas through a video game where you're shooting people in war paint and fighting mecha Washington I don't think subtlety is the way to go. Infinite seems tonally suitable in it's presentation of concepts. Brother Scrotum posted:And now the series is literally on rails. No thanks, I'll pass. Again, what is this based on? An E3 'vertical slice' demo from 2011? the black husserl posted:Do you even realize how unbelievably shallow and stupid this is. It's saturday morning cartoons. Yeah it's cartoonish, no question, but i'd rather have a game attempt to explore bigger concepts in a populist manor than than not even try.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:43
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the black husserl posted:Holy poo poo you should write a book or something. Maybe climb down off the ole' horse now.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:44
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I mean, there's every good reason that this game should suck/rule, but if you're still riding 2007 era vibes or backlash then get the gently caress over yourself.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:46
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Samurai Sanders posted:So during the game, you're the one who controls whether she uses her powers or not? It's not like in that scene before when she says "I'm not asking for your permission"? It could be just that you as a player are controlling where she uses them instead of you as a character, because if the two are supposed to have great teamwork, even if they just met, that can be hard to actually code AI for so that the player doesn't get pissed off because she decided to use power for something the AI thought you wanted but actually wasn't and now it's cooldown.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:46
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ZackHoagie posted:I mean, there's every good reason that this game should suck/rule, but if you're still riding 2007 era vibes or backlash then get the gently caress over yourself. Who's this addressed to?
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Oct 21, 2012 22:47
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Who's this addressed to? You, me, this whole loving court's out of order!
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Oct 21, 2012 22:47
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ZackHoagie posted:You, me, this whole loving court's out of order! Attica! Attica! Attica!
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Oct 21, 2012 22:48
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Monster w21 Faces posted:I don't see why a video game series shouldn't be doing more of this sort of thing with a triple A budget. Seriously, political strife is an awesome setting for games. It's a lot less common than the rebels vs. Galactic Empire/oppressive regime environment we're so used to. It's part of what interests me about Assassin's Creed III as well. Two games coming up where we get to possibly kill dozens to hundreds of crazy-rear end "patriotic" Americans who actually play villainous roles? Talk about a paradigm shift in modern games.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:48
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Puistokemisti posted:It could be just that you as a player are controlling where she uses them instead of you as a character, because if the two are supposed to have great teamwork, even if they just met, that can be hard to actually code AI for so that the player doesn't get pissed off because she decided to use power for something the AI thought you wanted but actually wasn't and now it's cooldown.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:49
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Jetfire posted:Seriously, political strife is an awesome setting for games. It's a lot less common than the rebels vs. Galactic Empire/oppressive regime environment we're so used to. It's part of what interests me about Assassin's Creed III as well. Two games coming up where we get to possibly kill dozens to hundreds of crazy-rear end "patriotic" Americans who actually play villainous roles? Talk about a paradigm shift in modern games. It's the route I kinda wish CoD has explored more but Activism seems more interested in getting a war criminal to sell their product.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:50
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Samurai Sanders posted:Well, it wouldn't bother me so much if (correct me if I'm wrong here) "making" her use her powers or not is presented as a moral choice in the game. Like, she can't make decisions on her own and it's your fault if she kills herself by over-using her powers. We don't know the implications (if any) of over-using her powers yet, so there's no way to judge it. It could be subtle, endgame-changing or completely superfluous.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:50
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Yeah it's cartoonish, no question, but i'd rather have a game attempt to explore bigger concepts in a populist manor than than not even try. Why are the only options "cartoonish caricature" and "not even try"? Are you just directly saying that gamers only want to explore concepts in a shallow way?
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Oct 21, 2012 22:51
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I clicked the first link in the OP and literally burst out laughing. You get a picture of a face with hilariously exaggerated goo goo disney/anime eyes, and the face of a 12 year old, then the camera pans down and the 12 year old has gigantic knockers and one of the most ridiculous open-front dresses I've ever seen. What horrible, pandering design. I'm going to assume that the rest of the game follows in that style. No thanks! Especially not after Bioshock 2 pulled that GFWL crap.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:53
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Samurai Sanders posted:Well, it wouldn't bother me so much if (correct me if I'm wrong here) "making" her use her powers or not is presented as a moral choice in the game. Like, she can't make decisions on her own and it's your fault if she kills herself by over-using her powers. What Jetfire said and there's also that we don't know for sure that using her powers in fight is what harms here, it could be that it's resurrecting horses that does it. Or that there's mechanics to heal her somehow. We just don't know, I hope that whatever it is, we can use her powers in fights.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:53
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the black husserl posted:Why are the only options "cartoonish caricature" and "not even try"? Listen, first you get the extremes then you get the meat.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:54
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Taffer posted:I clicked the first link in the OP and literally burst out laughing. You get a picture of a face with hilariously exaggerated goo goo disney/anime eyes, and the face of a 12 year old, then the camera pans down and the 12 year old has gigantic knockers and one of the most ridiculous open-front dresses I've ever seen.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:55
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the black husserl posted:Why are the only options "cartoonish caricature" and "not even try"? It's a populist medium that has to be accessible for a wide audience. It's broad and simple, yes, and I haven't said it isn't, but it ends up being easier pill to swallow and avoids being preachy. If 20% of people who play the game then go on to be more interested in political ideology and investigate their depths further then surely that's a good thing no? Samurai Sanders posted:Come to think of it, I didn't see any other women in the trailers I saw, so I can't tell if its just her or women in the game in general. Or is she like Princess Leia, the only woman in the whole universe? The leader of the Vox is female. Also take into consideration that Elizabeth has been kept, raised and preened to be the 'Song Bird' of Columbia. She's supposed to be the embodiment of the ideology of the cities founders. White, clean, in her place, American. Hence this threads Misogyny tag. Monster w21 Faces fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Oct 21, 2012 |
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Oct 21, 2012 22:57
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Monster w21 Faces posted:It's a populist medium that has to be accessible for a wide audience. It's broad and simple, yes, and I haven't said it isn't, but it ends up being easier pill to swallow and avoids being preachy. We've also just seen trailers and gameplay-centric demos. We don't know much about the small NPC instances or heard any of the audio logs from the ancillary characters yet.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:00
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Jetfire posted:We've also just seen trailers and gameplay-centric demos. We don't know much about the small NPC instances or heard any of the audio logs from the ancillary characters yet. Exactly.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:01
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Monster w21 Faces posted:Also take into consideration that Elizabeth has been kept, raised and preened to be the 'Song Bird' of Columbia. She's supposed to be the embodiment of the ideology of the cities founders. White, clean, in her place, American. Hence this threads Misogyny tag.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:01
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Samurai Sanders posted:Ah, that makes sense then I guess. I wonder if she'll change over the course of the game? Maybe get some more sensible clothes for running around and fighting? In the Beast of America trailer which came out today (and is therefore a newer build of the game) she's wearing a much more conservative dress when her and Booker are falling through the sky.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:03
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