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ImpAtom posted:And that is literally the only one you need. There is no reason for Palpatine to bring this up otherwise. He is speaking to Anakin and aware of Anakin. He is offering Anakin the power that Darth Plagueis had. Right after that line he all but says that he killed his Master and stole his techniques. And yet how does Sheev treat Vader in Jedi once Luke appears as a prospective new apprentice? It is a fickle affection lasting only as long as he has need of his apprentice. The "create life" line relates to Anakin's birth only as far as it speaks to Anakin's knowledge of his own conception. Sheev frames the power to preserve Padme's life in the same sphere as creating life with The Force. This makes the power Sheev offers seem less Dark and more Just. For Anakin to condemn the power offered would be to consider himself an abomination. Which he eventually does.
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Dec 13, 2015 13:21
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Reminder that Anakin's sand people massacre comes in over the force radio and we see both Yoda and Windu pick it up. If Anakin wasn't on Sheev's radar for turning before than, he definitely was after.
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Dec 13, 2015 14:20
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Finished up my prequel re-watch with Revenge of the Sith. It was alright. In terms of the emotions put on the screen it's generally decent, and I really love the fall of the Jedi itself, it's just the logic behind it all that's pretty batshit. Anakin is just a stupid, stupid person from start to finish. I do enjoy at the end how baffled Obi Wan is by the poo poo that he comes out with. Also I thought Palpatine was after Anakin as an apprentice from the very beginning? Wasn't part of his plan sending him off with Padme at the start of Clones to trick them into thinking they love each other? And didn't he plant the dream he had about his mother dying? While watching them I assumed that almost everything that happened with Anakin involved Palpatine manipulating poo poo with his evil magic, including Qui Gon meeting him on Tatooine and Padme's death. stev fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 16:40
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ImpAtom posted:Oh yeah, I'm not saying the entire plan depended on the Shmi thing, just that the impression I got from the films is that Maul and Dooku were both basically stand-ins until his primo guy came of age. Naw, Maul was perfectly viable as far as Sidious was concerned. He was the ideal Sith apprentice: young, powerful, full of rage. It was a real blow to Sidious's plan when Maul was lost, and not something he was expecting to happen. Now, Dooku was a stop-gap measure for him until Anakin could be turned. Sidious is obsessed with youth, and with corrupting youth. Dooku was way too old for Sidious. He was really just the best he could come up with on short-notice. TCW implies that prior to Episode I, Sidious had long employed Dooku as a dark side acolyte à la Asajj Ventress--but he never had any intention of making Dooku a true Sith apprentice until circumstances forced his hand. This handily explains how events would have played out had Maul not been defeated by Obi-Wan. Maul would have remained in his role as Sidious's Sith apprentice and enforcer, and Dooku would have played his role as charismatic figurehead for the Separatists, just as he did in the films. But in this scenario, Dooku wouldn't have been made privy to all the Sith secrets that would have given him the ultimate power he so obviously desired. He would have remained a second-rate lackey enticed by the promise of a power he would never be granted. This is why Maul had to be done away with in the first film instead of continuing on as the Darth Vader of the prequel trilogy. Maul was perfect. If he hadn't been cut in half, there would have been no reason for Palpatine to pursue Anakin so aggressively. George Lucas posted:"Ultimately the final story is between Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the Queen. It's really their story. Those four characters. At one point, when Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, he just fell into the pit. I looked at it and thought this isn't going to work because, if people like him enough, they are going to want him to come back and they're going to assume somehow he gets out of it. So I had to cut him in half to say this guy's gone, he's history, he ain't coming back. I'll come up with another apprentice. The whole issue of having apprentices, poor Darth Sidious trying to replenish his apprentice supply, is one of the main plot points." It reinforces the idea that Anakin is nothing more than a tool and a fetish object to Palpatine. It really is all about an old pervert seducing a confused little boy for his own sick gratification. It's no mistake that Ian McDiarmid plays so many of his scenes with Anakin in Episode III with weird sexual undertones.  "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger."  "Good. Good. The Force is strong with you." The man really understood his character and wasn't afraid to go really creepy places with it. quote:I guess a bigger question would be What would he have done if Qui-Gon hadn't ended up there? Though the answer is probably "Wait until Anakin is 14 or so and go and offer a resentful teenage slave the change at ultimate power." I don't think Palpatine had any idea that Anakin even existed until after he blew up the droid control ship in Episode I. I think we're meant to take Palpatine at his word when he says the power to create life was something possessed only by his master. If Anakin was a creation of the Sith (and it's left deliberately ambiguous), then it was Plagueis's secret which he took to the grave. Palpatine was merely able to put two and two together when Anakin showed up on his doorstep a decade later.
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Dec 13, 2015 16:47
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Steve2911 posted:
I think it's kind of like Littlefinger in Game of Thrones - it seems like everything was planned from the beginning, but there's just enough nuance that you can argue that he's just very good at improvising.
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Dec 13, 2015 17:00
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Steve2911 posted:Also I thought Palpatine was after Anakin as an apprentice from the very beginning? Wasn't part of his plan sending him off with Padme at the start of Clones to trick them into thinking they love each other? And didn't he plant the dream he had about his mother dying? Palpatine is a scheming opportunist, not an all-powerful puppet master. He definitely was stacking the deck in his favor, and I totally believe that he was attempting to set up Anakin and Padme to fall for each other, but there not even an implication that he had anything to do with Shmi's kidnapping, torture, or death. That was just, from his stance, a happy accident. Something he could bring up in the future "hey, remember that the Jedi kept you away from home so long that your mom died? Remember that you couldn't save her from death, that you aren't strong enough to protect everyone you love?"
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Dec 13, 2015 17:02
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ImpAtom posted:I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith who lived many years ago. He was so powerful and so wise that he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... I think you make some good points in the rest of this post, but this quote in particular doesn't confirm the circumstances of Anakin's birth. This is a story Palpatine tells Anakin to seduce him to the dark side; we never see any other evidence that the Plagueis powers are real.
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Dec 13, 2015 17:10
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Guy A. Person posted:I think you make some good points in the rest of this post, but this quote in particular doesn't confirm the circumstances of Anakin's birth. This is a story Palpatine tells Anakin to seduce him to the dark side; we never see any other evidence that the Plagueis powers are real. Except that he directly uses those powers to stop Anakin from dying.
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Dec 13, 2015 17:15
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computer parts posted:I think it's kind of like Littlefinger in Game of Thrones - it seems like everything was planned from the beginning, but there's just enough nuance that you can argue that he's just very good at improvising. Palpatine seems to operate on the basis of broad premonitions and a shrewd understanding of human behavior. He doesn't have to micromanage every last detail. For example, he knows he can send Zam after Padme, and that if he also assigns Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect her, she won't be killed. He knows that if he gives Obi-Wan the right clue, he will find his way to Kamino. Palpatine may not know all the exact details, but his premonitions tell him that if he puts the right people in the right places at the right times, things will tend to work out a certain way. He didn't have to arrange Shmi's death. No matter what happened, Anakin's issues with attachment were eventually going to run up against his obligations to the Jedi, and Palpatine would be able to exploit that. He nudged things in a certain direction by reuniting Padme and Anakin and sending them into seclusion in the most romantic place in the universe, but he didn't have to kill anybody himself. Loss is an inevitable part of life. Anakin was going to have to deal with it eventually, in one form or another--and when that time came, Palpatine would be there, ready to exploit Anakin's frustration and anger. And remember, Padme's already been marked for death by the universe itself. Episode II is constantly joking about it and teasing the audience with fake-outs. The very first thing that happens in the movie is a hilariously cheap Padme death fake-out:  Then there's this series of shots, presented one directly after the other, deliberately edited in a deceptive way to fool you into thinking Padme is being incinerated:    Of course the next shot reveals that, despite all rules of cinematic logic, we were looking at the wrong cauldron, and so Padme is still alive:  Immediately afterward, Padme is saved by a literal deus ex machina in the form of R2-D2, who successfully hacks into the assembly line controls and disrupts the sequence, preventing the inevitable by essentially doing the same thing Lucas just did as an editor (R2-D2 is George Lucas's favorite character because he can always use him to get the characters out of irreconcilable plot jams):      And then the last shot is of Padme dumped out of a giant cup onto a chessboard surrounded by aliens with guns:  That's why it's a double entendre when, after Padme yet again manages unaccountably to escape from certain death (this time by somehow producing a lockpick from out of nowhere), Dooku reassures a (quite reasonably) protesting Gunray:  "She can't do that! Shoot her or something!"  *Boba, Poggle, and Jango (the spectators) all turn expectantly to Dooku.*  "Patience, Viceroy, she will die." The Sith know exactly what's up.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:08
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I don't know, going by that logic Palpatine got really lucky quite a few times. I mean for starters did he have a premonition telling him that both Jango and the other assassin would be ridiculously incompetent? The more direct control Palpatine has the more sense the prequels make. Having an evil wizard manipulating everything from behind a curtain is way preferable to random plot convenience.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:15
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Steve2911 posted:I don't know, going by that logic Palpatine got really lucky quite a few times. I mean for starters did he have a premonition telling him that both Jango and the other assassin would be ridiculously incompetent? I think in that case it's again more that he wins either way. Like say that he told Jango to subcontract it off to a worse assassin. Either Padme is saved because the other assassin is bad (like what happens in the movie) or she dies and he can use it as a declaration of war/make Anakin really really angsty because his childhood crush died while he was protecting her.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:23
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We learn in the film that Jango was in Dooku's service. The Kamino saber dart clue is pretty clearly set up in advance: Jango uses an identifiable weapon from an obscure world, a world that Dooku had previously erased from the Jedi archives. So Obi-Wan gets to pat himself on the back for being smarter than everyone else, and he never suspects that he's being deliberately led there. So I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that Dooku instructed Jango to plant the clue. However, if the assassination did work out, then that's not really a problem for Palpatine. He might have to put the Anakin deal on the back-burner, but now he's murdered the Leader of the Opposition, the strongest voice in the Senate against war. If he can pin her murder on the Separatists, he shows everyone that the Separatists are actually militant assholes and he gets the war he's been wanting.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:25
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Steve2911 posted:I don't know, going by that logic Palpatine got really lucky quite a few times. I mean for starters did he have a premonition telling him that both Jango and the other assassin would be ridiculously incompetent? Why wouldn't he? Isn't that the kind of thing premonitions are for? And Jango himself wasn't ridiculously incompetent. Dooku trusted him enough to make him his right-hand man. It's unclear exactly how much Jango really knows about everything, but he was absolutely following orders to a tee on the night of the assassination plot. Give Zam the centipedes, hang back but keep close tabs on her progress, intercede only when the Jedi have caught up with her, silence her with a Kamino saberdart, and then scram.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:28
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Cnut the Great posted:Why wouldn't he? Isn't that the kind of thing premonitions are for? Another thing I was wondering watching RotS: It was a bit of a oval office move to send Leia to live on a lush planet with powerful, wealthy parents and send Luke to live a life of poverty on a lovely desert planet known for slavery and crime. I know they said he should be with his family, but they're not even blood relatives, they don't know Luke exists and it makes no difference at all where he goes. You could say that it's the last place the Empire would ever find him, but it's not like they establish that the Empire's looking for him or anything. As far as I could tell no one (including Palpatine) seems to know or care that Padme successfully gave birth at that point. One quick line about how Palpy senses a new force strong presence that might be worth looking for would have done the job.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:37
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Cnut the Great posted:I think we're meant to take Palpatine at his word when he says the power to create life was something possessed only by his master. This is, of course, not what Sheev actually says so you're not taking him at his word at all. Sheev never claims a relationship with the character in the story he tells Anakin.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:38
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Steve2911 posted:You could say that it's the last place the Empire would ever find him, but it's not like they establish that the Empire's looking for him or anything. As far as I could tell no one (including Palpatine) seems to know or care that Padme successfully gave birth at that point. One quick line about how Palpy senses a new force strong presence that might be worth looking for would have done the job. It's a precaution because they don't know that pretending Padmé's still pregnant will work. And how would a line from Palpatine explain what the Jedi decide to do? They don't know poo poo about what Palpatine senses, so they're just doing their best to keep the twins as safe as possible.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:41
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Zoran posted:And how would a line from Palpatine explain what the Jedi decide to do? They don't know poo poo about what Palpatine senses, so they're just doing their best to keep the twins as safe as possible. I mean in terms of what the audience sees and understands about the situation. From the perspective of the viewer it's clear that they just sent him there because that's where he is in A New Hope. e: And giving Leia to parents who are massively in the public eye on a well populated, politically significant planet isn't exactly the safest thing possible for her. She becomes a loving princess. El Burbo posted:Cnut's post earlier about how Dooku was just a temporary solution between Maul and Vader is a good explanation for why, even though he did have a sith name, he is only ever referred to as Count Dooku, unlike his predecessor and successor. I wonder how Palpatine picks those names anyway. They're all pretty loving stupid names, Anakin really should have said something. Maybe he was just embarrassed. stev fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 18:44
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Cnut's post earlier about how Dooku was just a temporary solution between Maul and Vader is a good explanation for why, even though he did have a sith name, he is only ever referred to as Count Dooku, unlike his predecessor and successor.
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Dec 13, 2015 18:46
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Cnut the Great posted:a dying comedy forum As an aside, why do people say this all the time now? Did I miss something?
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Dec 13, 2015 18:54
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Steve2911 posted:I don't know, going by that logic Palpatine got really lucky quite a few times. I mean for starters did he have a premonition telling him that both Jango and the other assassin would be ridiculously incompetent? Palpatine doesn't get lucky, he's just good at manipulating people and he enjoys the luxury of weak opponents. The Republic is weak and impotent; Palpatine couldn't have brought down the Chancellor in Episode I with some dumb little maskirovka drama if that wasn't true. The Jedi Order is arrogant and blind and their powers are on the fritz because they're so unenlightened they're threatening to fall to the dark side anyway. Obi-Wan's investigation isn't some masterstroke of Palpatine's plotting, it's actually conducted incompetently. Obi-Wan figures out who attacked Padme, but he and the Order are too dumb to follow up on any of the more important leads he turns up. Then he gets himself captured anyway and falls into Palpatine's direct control. It isn't hard to look like a genius when your opponents are weak and stupid. And this does happen in history; it's hardly unrealistic for one guy to come out looking great when in fact his opponents were a bunch of morons.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:04
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computer parts posted:I think in that case it's again more that he wins either way. Like say that he told Jango to subcontract it off to a worse assassin. Either Padme is saved because the other assassin is bad (like what happens in the movie) or she dies and he can use it as a declaration of war/make Anakin really really angsty because his childhood crush died while he was protecting her. Palpatine definitely wanted Padme alive so Anakin would have time to develop an even closer attachment to her. If he was cool with her dying before the war, he could have cut out Zam from the plot entirely and just had Jango shoot Padme with the saberdart. The funny thing about Episode II is that half of it's framed as a detective story, but the whole thing is a farce*, and the detective never actually figures out any of the things he's supposed to. Then you have guys like RLM analyzing all the clues and realizing that none of it makes any sense if the intention of the plot was really what the Jedi thought it was (to kill Padme), and instead of realizing that that's the whole point of the film, they criticize it, because they never thought to question their assumption that Lucas is a blithering idiot completely lacking in the necessary insight to portray the Jedi as being genuinely flawed. RLM is Obi-Wan Kenobi being outsmarted by a child because he was too arrogant to question his assumptions (i.e., that it was impossible for a planet to have been erased from the Jedi Archives). As it happens, Episode II is actually a pretty well-constructed mystery story, one with a solution that is pretty obvious, but which nevertheless had many people stumped because of the assumptions they had going in--namely, that the Jedi were flawless (or that Lucas's intention was to portray them as flawless). And, brilliantly, this is the same set of assumptions that ends up dooming the Jedi themselves, by blinding them to facts that would have been obvious if only they had had a more humble mindset. *(The other half of the movie is framed as a love story, and this is also a farce.) El Burbo posted:Cnut's post earlier about how Dooku was just a temporary solution between Maul and Vader is a good explanation for why, even though he did have a sith name, he is only ever referred to as Count Dooku, unlike his predecessor and successor. Sidious refers to him as Tyranus at the end of Episode II. The reason he's only referred to as Dooku by the other characters is because they don't know his Sith name. If they did, Jango's mention to Obi-Wan of being "recruited by a man called Tyranus" would have tipped the Jedi off that the clone army was part of the Sith plot. As it happens, the Jedi do learn that Dooku is Tyranus in TCW, but by that point they've bonded with the clones over the course of years and been convinced of their trustworthiness, and so see no other alternative but to continue to let the Sith plot play out and hope they'll be able to divine its ultimate aim in time to avert it.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:08
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The above Lucas quote about Maul's death is all the evidence a reasonable person needs to discount everything in the cartoons from being relevant to a reading of the films. They bring back a character that was specifically coded not to be able to come back. Canon is a lie.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:14
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Cnut the Great posted:The funny thing about Episode II is that half of it's framed as a detective story, but the whole thing is a farce*, and the detective never actually figures out any of the things he's supposed to. Then you have guys like RLM analyzing all the clues and realizing that none of it makes any sense if the intention of the plot was really what the Jedi thought it was (to kill Padme), and instead of realizing that that's the whole point of the film, they criticize it, because they never thought to question their assumption that Lucas is a blithering idiot completely lacking in the necessary insight to portray the Jedi as being genuinely flawed. RLM is Obi-Wan Kenobi being outsmarted by a child because he was too arrogant to question his assumptions (i.e., that it was impossible for a planet to have been erased from the Jedi Archives). Nah, their argument isn't so much 'the Jedi are idiots when they should be perfect' but more 'everyone involved in this is way too stupid to be the least bit believable'. That includes Padme, her non-Jedi security staff and everyone surrounding the situation. sassassin posted:The above Lucas quote about Maul's death is all the evidence a reasonable person needs to discount everything in the cartoons from being relevant to a reading of the films. None of the spinoff cartoons are canon so this is fine.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:14
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The Clone Wars and Rebels are canon according to Disney, as meaningless as that is.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:17
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Steve2911 posted:None of the spinoff cartoons are canon so this is fine. Clone Wars and Rebels are both canon. The older Genndy clone wars is not.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:17
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sassassin posted:And yet how does Sheev treat Vader in Jedi once Luke appears as a prospective new apprentice? You'll notice that Luke Skywalker has a certain connection to Anakin Skywalker. Palpatine absolutely wants his grandson. In fact one can even argue this is why Palpatine would be okay with being struck down. Either he gets his grandson, twistedly reaffirms his son's love, or his family takes over after his demise. It's a win for Palpatine in any case and that is what Palpatine is always doing. sassassin posted:The above Lucas quote about Maul's death is all the evidence a reasonable person needs to discount everything in the cartoons from being relevant to a reading of the films. Why? George Lucas has openly admitted that Darth Vader was not intended to be Luke's father and Leia his sister. He changed that. George Lucas saying something is meaningless. Cnut the Great posted:It reinforces the idea that Anakin is nothing more than a tool and a fetish object to Palpatine. It really is all about an old pervert seducing a confused little boy for his own sick gratification. It's no mistake that Ian McDiarmid plays so many of his scenes with Anakin in Episode III with weird sexual undertones. The thing I think you're missing here is that doesn't rule anything anything. Palpatine having a twisted interest in his son would, in fact, mirror the fact that Luke had an uncomfortable twisted interest in his own sister. Arglebargle III posted:. I think we're meant to take Palpatine at his word when he says the power to create life was something possessed only by his master. If Anakin was a creation of the Sith (and it's left deliberately ambiguous), then it was Plagueis's secret which he took to the grave. Palpatine was merely able to put two and two together when Anakin showed up on his doorstep a decade later. He never says that. quote:Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, and then one night, his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic that he could save others from death, but not himself. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 19:27
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Steve2911 posted:None of the spinoff cartoons are canon so this is fine. This is canon.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:29
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Cnut the Great posted:Palpatine definitely wanted Padme alive so Anakin would have time to develop an even closer attachment to her. If he was cool with her dying before the war, he could have cut out Zam from the plot entirely and just had Jango shoot Padme with the saberdart. What? But then he would have just ended up shooting one of her decoys. I don't accept this idea that the bomb on her ship wasn't supposed to kill her. It's just way too unlikely. Isn't it more believable that they intended to kill her, rather than intended to fail to kill her in multiple attacks? Palpatine would probably have preferred Padme's death to be a public terrorist attack that could be blamed on the Separatists, rather than a silent assassination. The ultimate answer to why those attempts failed is that the Fetts are chumps. Palpatine didn't need Obi-Wan to find anything out. He controlled both sides. He could just have maneuvered the Separatists into attacking the Republic in some other way. In fact he came dangerously close to exposure when his double-crossing lackey Dooku straight up told the Jedi that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Palpatine couldn't possibly have planned for the Jedi to be too stupid to look into it further. He didn't particularly leave a trail of bread crumbs. He even covered it up by causing Kamino to be deleted from the archives so that, as we saw, Obi-Wan couldn't put it together without outside help. The reason Obi-Wan ever got there despite his arrogant blindness is that, again, Jango Fett is just a chump, like his clone son. Well and that the Jedi are actually formidable when you point them straight at a problem, so that the shape-shifting assassin in a fast car that Jango thought should have escaped was in fact captured.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:32
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Arglebargle III posted:What? But then he would have just ended up shooting one of her decoys. I don't accept this idea that the bomb on her ship wasn't supposed to kill her. It's just way too unlikely. Isn't it more believable that they intended to kill her, rather than intended to fail to kill her in multiple attacks? Palpatine would probably have preferred Padme's death to be a public terrorist attack that could be blamed on the Separatists, rather than a silent assassination. The ultimate answer to why those attempts failed is that the Fetts are chumps. I'd just say that the fact that the basic motivations and plans of the villain are so unclear that no one has a loving clue is a fault with the film.
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Dec 13, 2015 19:38
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It tells you in the opening crawl that Padme is opposing the military creation bill. And that her life is threapened. Then her ship explodes in the first few minutes, and the characters immediately call it a bomb.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 20:02
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lovely quality grab from a TV spot I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!
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Dec 13, 2015 20:22
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Captain Splendid posted:lovely quality grab from a TV spot http://i.imgur.com/kyLuZey.mp4 
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Dec 13, 2015 20:31
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Captain Splendid posted:lovely quality grab from a TV spot
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Dec 13, 2015 20:35
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I swear to god, I'm gonna have to see this at least 10 times in theaters to really soak up all the cinematography. psssh, he wasn't even aiming for Finn.
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Dec 13, 2015 20:39
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An ancient technique with a proud history 
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Dec 13, 2015 20:41
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Grievous and Vader after putting on the suit are the only lightsaber-wielding characters that never spin in the movies. Cyborgs can't spin. On the Sidious and Plagueis thing, in the script and novelization Palpatine admits Plagueis was his master and that he never actually learned the secret to controlling life. Plagueis is way more likely to be Anakin's father.
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Dec 13, 2015 21:33
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Arglebargle III posted:What? But then he would have just ended up shooting one of her decoys. I don't accept this idea that the bomb on her ship wasn't supposed to kill her. It's just way too unlikely. Isn't it more believable that they intended to kill her, rather than intended to fail to kill her in multiple attacks? Palpatine would probably have preferred Padme's death to be a public terrorist attack that could be blamed on the Separatists, rather than a silent assassination. The ultimate answer to why those attempts failed is that the Fetts are chumps. If he wanted to kill her, he would have sent bounty hunters after her on Naboo. He wouldn't have specifically requested that two of the best Jedi in the Order act as her personal bodyguards. Dooku wouldn't have had to give Nute Gunray a bullshit non-answer when he smartly suggested they just shoot her and have it done with. It's not a coincidence that the bomb didn't kill her. Jango was obviously the one who told Zam to hit the ship, because as we see a bit later, she utterly depends on him for her marching orders. But Jango and his masters knew Padme wasn't dumb enough to ride on the ship herself. They knew she'd use a decoy and travel separately. quote:Palpatine didn't need Obi-Wan to find anything out. He controlled both sides. He could just have maneuvered the Separatists into attacking the Republic in some other way. So the Separatists attack the Republic with a mysterious army from out of nowhere, and then the Kaminoans call up the Jedi and say, "Hey, by the way, we've got a mysterious army from out of nowhere, too. We haven't told you about it before because we were told to keep it a secret until just now, when a mysterious guy in a hood named Tyranus called us up and told us to let the cat out of the bag." The point is to make Obi-Wan work for it, to make it seem like he accidentally found out about something he wasn't supposed to, something which everyone involved was trying to keep hidden. Sure, it's a hell of a coincidence still, but that's exactly it: it still seems like just a coincidence, as opposed to something which somebody else planned to have happen. Then Palpatine maneuvers the Republic into a position where it makes the decision to attack the Separatists with the clones. There's a reason it's the Attack of the Clones, not the Defense of the Clones. This way, the war only started because Obi-Wan discovered the clones, as opposed to the other way around, which would have been much more suspicious. From the Jedi's perspective, the Sith's intended plot is obvious. The Sith hijacked the Separatist movement, built a massive droid army, and intended to overrun the defenseless Republic with it and thus take over. By the will of the Force, Obi-Wan serendipitously discovered the clone army on Kamino (ordered ten years ago by a dissident Jedi), and thus the Sith's plot was, for a time, thwarted. There's no reason for the Jedi to believe the Clone War itself was in any way a part of the Sith's plans, when of course in reality it was absolutely central. quote:In fact he came dangerously close to exposure when his double-crossing lackey Dooku straight up told the Jedi that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. He didn't tell the Jedi that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. He told Obi-Wan that "hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious." First of all, the Jedi don't even think Dooku is telling the truth. Second of all, Dooku's confession is crafted so as not to specifically implicate the Chancellor, or really even draw attention to him as a suspect. There are lots of ways to influence Senators. And if the Jedi are so certain that they would have been able to sense this influence, they're definitely not going to consider the possibility that they failed to sense that the leader of the Republic, whom they've interacted with routinely for over a decade, is in actuality a Sith Lord. What Dooku is doing is sowing the seeds of distrust between the Jedi and the Senate. This leads to the mentality we see in Episode III, where the Jedi are ready to forcibly take control of the Senate, even before they know Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Dooku's revelation is part of the plan. The Sith are cleverly using themselves as a boogeyman to get the Jedi to turn against their own democratic institutions. quote:Palpatine couldn't possibly have planned for the Jedi to be too stupid to look into it further. He didn't particularly leave a trail of bread crumbs. He even covered it up by causing Kamino to be deleted from the archives so that, as we saw, Obi-Wan couldn't put it together without outside help. Kamino was deleted from the archives because it had to stay hidden for ten years, until it was time for the war to begin. Whether it was really Sifo-Dyas, or whether it was Dooku, the Jedi who ordered the army couldn't chance the Jedi Council finding out about the operation on Kamino and putting a premature halt to it. Palpatine's task in Episode II is to reveal Kamino to the Jedi now that the time is ripe, and to make it look like nothing more than a lucky break, or perhaps the will of the Force. quote:The reason Obi-Wan ever got there despite his arrogant blindness is that, again, Jango Fett is just a chump, like his clone son. Well and that the Jedi are actually formidable when you point them straight at a problem, so that the shape-shifting assassin in a fast car that Jango thought should have escaped was in fact captured. Jango and Boba are chumps because they're killers-for-hire who don't believe in anything larger than themselves. They're not idiots. They're both shown to be quite clever, as well as competent. Jango holds his own against a Jedi Knight on Kamino and then single-handedly takes down a Jedi Master on Geonosis. Boba doesn't fall for Han's float-away-with-the-garbage trick, and would have shot a hole straight through Luke's back were it not for the blind (literally) chance that stopped him. It's a meme that Boba Fett doesn't really do anything that cool in the OT, and it's true, but it's just a joke to get a rise out of Fett fans. He's a real threat, and that's how he's presented. That's why it's so funny when he goes out the way he does. This is the only way everything makes sense. Lucas confirms on the DVD commentary that Obi-Wan's investigation is a ploy by the Sith to lead him to the clone army: George Lucas posted:"The other part of this is that Palpatine's maneuvering things and getting Obi-Wan and Anakin to be with the Queen again. And part of it is to get Obi-Wan to find the clones and the Clone Army. Which is part of this set up is for. Because they're being led along this path, the Jedi, toward accepting this Clone Army and for Palpatine to get powers beyond the ones that are the constitution powers for an elected official. He wants to have certain more, uh, more encompassing powers, which an emergency allows him to have." There are only two occasions in the pre-Kamino portion of the film where the Sith could conceivably have exerted their influence on Obi-Wan: 1) When Palpatine has him and Anakin assigned to protect Padme. 2) When Jango fires the Kamino saberdart into Zam's neck right in front of him. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 21:36
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Captain Splendid posted:lovely quality grab from a TV spot That looks like a mini Sheev spin. Wich is awesome. edit: Welcome back weighty lightsabers Viller fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Dec 13, 2015 |
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Dec 13, 2015 21:36
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Steve2911 posted:The more direct control Palpatine has the more sense the prequels make. Having an evil wizard manipulating everything from behind a curtain is way preferable to random plot convenience. Star Wars was pretty keen on happy coincidences: the Empire doesn't fire on the droid pod at the start, they meet up with Jawas who sell them to their master's long lost brother, when it seems the important one isn't getting sold the one that is conveniently malfunctions, etc
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Dec 13, 2015 21:38
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korusan posted:Star Wars was pretty keen on happy coincidences: the Empire doesn't fire on the droid pod at the start, they meet up with Jawas who sell them to their master's long lost brother, when it seems the important one isn't getting sold the one that is conveniently malfunctions, etc Absolutely, but everything that happens in the OT isn't part of some huge elaborate master plan.
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Dec 13, 2015 21:43
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