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ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Darko posted:

I can't stand Horner at this point - he's ridiculous. If you take any of the composers that popped up from the same era, ie. Zimmer/Elfman/Silvestri, etc., you see some gradual progression and evolution. They might go back to favorites or callbacks from time to time for stuff like action fills, and have a recognizable style, but you can post instances from ANY of them where they sound COMPLETELY different.

Horner just does the same exact stuff over and over again and has actually REGRESSED since the early 90s. With not a single thing he's done going outside of that recognizable style or sounding "unique" in the slightest. He doesn't get creative wit hthe soundtracks, he doesn't experiment - he just copies and pastes bits of one score and another to create a new one. It's ridiculous.

Now here we definitely agree. I used to LOVE Horner, and I maintain that his work in the 80's and early 90's was good-to-great, especially for animated films. But basically right after Apollo 13 he started a downward slide that he never recovered from. He had started showing signs of self-lifting a bit earlier, but was still doing enough original work to forgive it. "Titanic" was the line.

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Darko
Dec 23, 2004

ComposerGuy posted:

This runs to taste (though I take serious issue with your assumption that I dismiss digital and synthetic scoring out-of-hand, which is certainly not the case: I work in that medium often. I take issue with Zimmer, not his medium).

I didn't just say you dismissed it out of hand, I said you placed a value judgment on two different types of scoring, where you default view one as superior to the other. You put a huge emphasis on orchestration, counterscoring, and theme, and a lesser emphasis on synthesis, build, and motif to the point where you view the former as "better" even if they take the same amount of creativity and effort. Or, like in the case of the Batman example above, you don't even recognize a motif progression or the creative elements involved behind the composition because it's not your cup of tea - in which case you are dismissing that type of scoring out-of-hand.

quote:

Whether I love something or hate something, I have at least engaged in the music and had a strong reaction to it. I don't hate what Zimmer does, I just don't find it the slightest bit interesting.

I just find this weird, because, as a composer yourself, I'd think you'd appreciate how he works at modulating singular sounds to provide completely unique sounds, purposely matches an instrument to a character in more creative ways than average (ie. using razor blades on violin strings for the Joker's motif or uses a piano that is purposely out of tune for Sherlock to give the feeling of Sherlock's "out of tune" mind), and who is not afraid to completely change his style or experiment with certain projects.

As said, he's literally, like, one of three composers that applies that much creativity to any project, and is one of the few callbacks to Goldsmith, who did the same in his era. How does that "bore" you?

edit: Don't take this as me jumping on you or attacking you - I just think that you might be a little too harsh on him to the point where you don't really give him his due because of your aesthetic dislike of what he does, that's all. And I'm interested in seeing where you're coming from. It's not me debating so much as sharing my perspective. I'm a pretty poo poo composer, so I'm always interested in the perspective of other composers.

Darko fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Dec 4, 2012

Fatkraken
Jun 23, 2005

Fun-time is over.

Darko posted:


My only problem with McCreary is that he tends to go as far as lift basically entire songs from other composers for some reason.

You can easily do that by accident; I know that I've composed some "awesome sounding songs," only to realize halfway through that I'm just recreating music from Golden Axe or something and not realizing it - but you shouldn't really get to production without realizing what you're doing.

Every composer either lifts, homages, or liberally borrows from classic composition to some degree, but doing it with contemporary composers is just weird. He says it's "coincidental," but...

The most blatant example:

Black Hawk Down - Leave No Man Behind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcxQfCZ_9V8

BSG - Roslin and Adama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG-Js_rMEV4


Yeah, I had heard about this, I considered mentioning it (since there's a lot of Zimmer love round here). It's the only really egregious example I know of for McCreary so as a one off I'm willing to believe it was accidental plagiarism as it's a fairly simple piece (unlikely to be a coincidence, since they're SO similar, especially in the base line, though I don't discount the possibility that both were inspired by an older, more obscure source). Unless more examples come to light I can look on it as an unfortunate accident rather than Yoko Kanno levels of obvious deliberate plagirism/uncredited covers. Anyway I'll stop talking about TV, and sorry fort the derail.

In the vast majority of films I see the score tends to stay in the background and not really stick in my mind. You could play a piece from Skyfall and I wouldn't be able to tell you it was from that movie, even though I only saw it a month ago. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing of course, it can get distracting if the score it too prominent.

The movie I saw most recently where the soundtrack REALLY stuck in my mind was John Murphys work on Sunshine, the Danny Boyle sci-fi/horror movie. The sound design overall was really special, with the creaks, groans and murmurings of the space ship forming a constant ambient backdrop and often incorporated into the score. You can hear a bit of that at the start of this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFvX1a7Yxh4. The scoring in Sunshine reminds me a bit of how the Truman Show was scored, where they used a lot of pre-existing Philip Glass pieces and only had new original music for a few scenes. The music is more standalone and is chosen to match the mood rather than being a beat for beat match to an action scene.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

Fatkraken posted:

The movie I saw most recently where the soundtrack REALLY stuck in my mind was Sunshine, the Danny Boyle sci-fi/horror movie. The sound design overall was really special, with the creaks, groans and murmurings of the space ship forming a constant ambient backdrop and often incorporated into the score. You can hear a bit of that at the start of this piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFvX1a7Yxh4. The scoring in Sunshine reminds me a bit of how the Truman Show was scored, where they used a lot of pre-existing Philip Glass pieces and only had new original music for a few scenes. The music is more standalone and is chosen to match the mood rather than being a beat for beat match to an action scene.
John Murphy is horrendously underappreciated in my opinion. Sunshine's score didn't even get a proper release for some reason, and the stuff he's done for other Boyle stuff (28 Days/Weeks Later) is absolutely terrific. The track you linked is an absolute highlight of Sunshine's score too.

ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Darko posted:

I just find this weird, because, as a composer yourself, I'd think you'd appreciate how he works at modulating singular sounds to provide completely unique sounds, purposely matches an instrument to a character in more creative ways than average (ie. using razor blades on violin strings for the Joker's motif or uses a piano that is purposely out of tune for Sherlock to give the feeling of Sherlock's "out of tune" mind), and who is not afraid to completely change his style or experiment with certain projects.

As said, he's literally, like, one of three composers that applies that much creativity to any project, and is one of the few callbacks to Goldsmith, who did the same in his era. How does that "bore" you?

I spent a great deal of my time in university in the study of electro-acoustic composition, which is basically right in the wheelhouse of Zimmer. Sound design like you describe played a large role, obviously, and as an art form I can appreciate it has merits. But I found it lacked substance, at least as applied by those practicing it in academia, and it never excited me. I can't help that it bores me, it just does.

I can appreciate that Zimmer is creative, but what I find interesting and not interesting is not something that is available for alteration via lightswitch.

I don't mean to sound defensive at all. Obviously everyone's opinion is valid!

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

ComposerGuy posted:

Now here we definitely agree. I used to LOVE Horner, and I maintain that his work in the 80's and early 90's was good-to-great, especially for animated films. But basically right after Apollo 13 he started a downward slide that he never recovered from. He had started showing signs of self-lifting a bit earlier, but was still doing enough original work to forgive it. "Titanic" was the line.

My "line" for Horner was A Beautiful Mind. I had not seen Bicentennial Man at that point, and thought that A Beautiful Mind was a wonderful return to form for him, and actually defended him. Then I heard Bicentennial Man, and saw how he just lifted a fill from that, extended it a couple of bars, and made it the main theme for ABM, and was pretty much like "gently caress you Horner." He does this all the time, and far worse than any other composer - who typically just take fills for action beats and such.

Ugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQd5ueBM5Yk

Titanic is "ok" - he lifts a lot in it, and I don't really -like- it on its own much, but it's still extremely fitting and interesting enough to get a pass.

Horner was literally my favorite composer right around the Braveheart era, which is why it's even more of a shame that I absolutely hate his stuff now. I mean, even on top of reusing his OWN stuff - he basically just seems to use the temp tracks and doesn't even really change much of anything: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMHJlkYlzKE

coffeetable
Feb 5, 2006

TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Stare-Out posted:

John Murphy is horrendously underappreciated in my opinion. Sunshine's score didn't even get a proper release for some reason, and the stuff he's done for other Boyle stuff (28 Days/Weeks Later) is absolutely terrific. The track you linked is an absolute highlight of Sunshine's score too.

Christ, I hadn't even realised Sunshine and 28 Days were both Murphy. Both Surface Of The Sun and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST2H8FWDvEA

I'd never gotten round to adding to my collection. Cheers for the reminder.

ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Darko posted:

My "line" for Horner was A Beautiful Mind. I had not seen Bicentennial Man at that point, and thought that A Beautiful Mind was a wonderful return to form for him, and actually defended him. Then I heard Bicentennial Man, and saw how he just lifted a fill from that, extended it a couple of bars, and made it the main theme for ABM, and was pretty much like "gently caress you Horner." He does this all the time, and far worse than any other composer - who typically just take fills for action beats and such.

Ugh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQd5ueBM5Yk

Titanic is "ok" - he lifts a lot in it, and I don't really -like- it on its own much, but it's still extremely fitting and interesting enough to get a pass.

Horner was literally my favorite composer right around the Braveheart era, which is why it's even more of a shame that I absolutely hate his stuff now. I mean, even on top of reusing his OWN stuff - he basically just seems to use the temp tracks and doesn't even really change much of anything: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMHJlkYlzKE

I consider Apollo 13 to be he best, and his CONSTANT returning to the Apollo 13 well seems to bear that out. He re-uses stuff from that almost literally every score.

I can understand occasionally ripping yourself off here and there. It happens. You have a "sound" that is uniquely you and you're bound to return to some familiar chord progressions and such in projects where you need to fill a lot of time and space, but Horner started strong, got rich, and said "gently caress it".

Fatkraken
Jun 23, 2005

Fun-time is over.
Can we talk about existing classical music being used/adapted for scores? I thought the use of Beethoven's seventh symphony, second movement in The Fall was absolutely wonderful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgHxmAsINDk as was using Purcells Funeral March of Queen Mary for The Young Poisoners Handbook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WKrAQkP6rU. Both used the music at multiple points through the film rather than just in a single scene, and I felt it really tied them together and created a coherent mood and feel.

Snapes N Snapes
Sep 6, 2010

Just going to post this here because everyone should become familiar with the stellar soundtrack to Ravenous, which is a pretty good movie in its own right to boot as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLt98WxrYAw

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
The thing with Horner is that he comes from the Corman factory, and they just went and re-used music in whole to save money, so that may have gotten him in the mindset where he just steals from himself all the time.

He's got his strengths, Star Trek II's music is amazing.

One neat thing about Howard Shore is that for the LOTR films he did a lot of the orchestration/arrangement as well. For the Rohan theme he used the Swedish fiddle, which has sympathetic strings, to give it that quivery feel which fits the mood so well.

I really want to track down a version of the Fellowship score with the actual opening cue. It always bugs me when soundtracks on CD are "off" from what's in the movie- they'll often miss out my favorite part.

(The exception to this is Morricone's soundtrack to Orca, where the CD leaves off the godawful end vocal and the final theme is just pure orchestral beauty.)

Hibernator
Aug 14, 2011

Maxwell Lord posted:

It always bugs me when soundtracks on CD are "off" from what's in the movie- they'll often miss out my favorite part.

A recent example of this is Jon Brion's ParaNorman, which omits the incredible finale (which sounds a great deal influenced by Clint Mansell's The Fountain)

Hewlett
Mar 4, 2005

"DANCE! DANCE! DANCE!"

Also, drink
and watch movies.
That's fun too.

Hibernator posted:

A recent example of this is Jon Brion's ParaNorman, which omits the incredible finale (which sounds a great deal influenced by Clint Mansell's The Fountain)

Are you kidding? Man, that would have been the one track I would shell out for. :smith:

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

Maxwell Lord posted:

I really want to track down a version of the Fellowship score with the actual opening cue. It always bugs me when soundtracks on CD are "off" from what's in the movie- they'll often miss out my favorite part.
Have you checked out the complete editions of the scores? FotR starts with this but doesn't have the "One Ring" strings going like the Two Towers complete edition opening cue does.

And speaking of things left out of the actual albums, there's a cue in King Kong which plays during the whole giant insect scene that's incredibly haunting and creepy, but completely absent from the album, which sucks.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

I'm going to admit that I don't really like the LOTR scores at all.

It has nothing to do with actual QUALITY; it's pure taste, in that I don't like brass as a major instrument in most instances - I like brass purely used in hits or crescendos only. The LOTR soundtracks are so brass-horn heavy that they end up grating on me quite a bit. I'm a big fan of strings, woodwinds, and pianos.

*The exception is the french horn when used John Barry style.

Darko fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Dec 7, 2012

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

Darko posted:

I'm going to admit that I don't really like the LOTR scores at all.

It has nothing to do with actual QUALITY; it's pure taste, in that I don't like brass as a major instrument in most instances - I like brass purely used it hits or crescendos only. The LOTR soundtracks are so brass-horn heavy that they end up grating on me quite a bit. I'm a big fan of strings, woodwinds, and pianos.

*The exception is the french horn when used John Barry style.
I can sort of relate to this; they're largely so all-out that it borders on too much for me as well, and -- as mentioned previously in this thread, I adore the DKR score. But at the same time that's exactly what I expect from a massive fantasy film score and it's pretty much only because it's Shore that I can take it and appreciate it so much. It also helps that I'm a huge LotR fan and learning about the process behind composing for the films and how the themes are woven into the music gives me a thrill.

ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Darko posted:

I'm going to admit that I don't really like the LOTR scores at all.

It has nothing to do with actual QUALITY; it's pure taste, in that I don't like brass as a major instrument in most instances - I like brass purely used in hits or crescendos only. The LOTR soundtracks are so brass-horn heavy that they end up grating on me quite a bit. I'm a big fan of strings, woodwinds, and pianos.

*The exception is the french horn when used John Barry style.

Holy poo poo...I can't get enough brass, and one of my favorite users is David Arnold. His Stargate and Independence Day scores almost single-handedly defined how I approach the brass section. His writing for horn and trumpet especially is fantastic.

As for LOTR...you had to have brass. That instrument section is crucial to the type of setting and mood the films were attempting to create. I understand personal tastes and whatnot (obvious I kicked off by invoking just that).

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

I quite like the way brass is used in the Dances with Wolves theme. It starts out very measured and only jumps to an energetic climax towards the end. The starting trumpet solo is still my favourite among all the soundtracks around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXmfVKZLICg

Sentinel Red
Nov 13, 2007
Style > Content.

Maxwell Lord posted:

The thing with Horner is that he comes from the Corman factory, and they just went and re-used music in whole to save money, so that may have gotten him in the mindset where he just steals from himself all the time.

He's got his strengths, Star Trek II's music is amazing.

Plus the man gave us the pinnacle of 20th century aural art in the form of the steel drum-tastic Commando soundtrack. That and WoK make up for his lifetime of subsequent lazy hackery.

Admiral Snackbar
Mar 13, 2006

OUR SNEEZE SHIELDS CANNOT REPEL A HUNGER OF THAT MAGNITUDE

Sentinel Red posted:

Plus the man gave us the pinnacle of 20th century aural art in the form of the steel drum-tastic Commando soundtrack. That and WoK make up for his lifetime of subsequent lazy hackery.

Interestingly, Horner actually started photocopying himself very early. Compare the second theme that appears in the Krull Main Title (1:42), or one of the main themes from Battle Beyond the Stars (0:14) to the second theme of Wrath of Khan (1:05). In fact, a lot of BBTS is pretty much interchangeable with WoK (and includes one of the best trumpet clams ever, at 3:43 in the above clip). Also, compare Commando to 48 Hours (0:46).

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Horner's score for Aliens also directly lifts from his Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock work. He basically re-uses his Klingon theme at one point near the end of Aliens.

Darthemed
Oct 28, 2007

"A data unit?
For me?
"




College Slice
Since everyone contributing to this thread seems quite well-informed, I have to ask: who are the worst offenders when it comes to overuse of tinkly piano? It seems like this trend has died down quite a bit since the '90s (I'm looking at you, Forrest Gump score), but I don't see as many modern movies as I used to, so I'm curious if any contemporary composers are carrying on with this tradition. (And although it certainly does indulge in this practice, Jerry Goldsmith's score for A Patch of Blue is the one score I can think of that manages to overwhelm my usual objection to that style.)

Also, was anymore of Hans Zimmer's Cool Runnings score ever released beyond the two tracks at the end of the soundtrack that Disney issued?

Hewlett
Mar 4, 2005

"DANCE! DANCE! DANCE!"

Also, drink
and watch movies.
That's fun too.

Darthemed posted:

Since everyone contributing to this thread seems quite well-informed, I have to ask: who are the worst offenders when it comes to overuse of tinkly piano? It seems like this trend has died down quite a bit since the '90s (I'm looking at you, Forrest Gump score), but I don't see as many modern movies as I used to, so I'm curious if any contemporary composers are carrying on with this tradition. (And although it certainly does indulge in this practice, Jerry Goldsmith's score for A Patch of Blue is the one score I can think of that manages to overwhelm my usual objection to that style.)

Also, was anymore of Hans Zimmer's Cool Runnings score ever released beyond the two tracks at the end of the soundtrack that Disney issued?

It's tough, but from what I can tell Alexandre Desplat is going crazy with the tinkly piano in a lot of his scores now (King's Speech, Benjamin Button), but most of his stuff is still incredibly solid - especially his action scoring. The aforementioned Horner is also doing plenty of the tinkly piano; I seem to remember quite a bit of it in ASM.

ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Hewlett posted:

It's tough, but from what I can tell Alexandre Desplat is going crazy with the tinkly piano in a lot of his scores now (King's Speech, Benjamin Button), but most of his stuff is still incredibly solid - especially his action scoring. The aforementioned Horner is also doing plenty of the tinkly piano; I seem to remember quite a bit of it in ASM.

Randy Newman has been known to employ this as well, though it certainly doesn't dominate his works. Pleasantville comes to mind as a stand-out example, which is also an example of his lean towards Americana-style scoring (he's basically New Aaron Copland in that regard).

BrooklynBruiser
Aug 20, 2006

Hewlett posted:

It's tough, but from what I can tell Alexandre Desplat is going crazy with the tinkly piano in a lot of his scores now (King's Speech, Benjamin Button), but most of his stuff is still incredibly solid - especially his action scoring. The aforementioned Horner is also doing plenty of the tinkly piano; I seem to remember quite a bit of it in ASM.

Mentioning Desplat, what do most people think about his score for The Ghost Writer? I thought it was a phenomenal score for a damned good movie, personally.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Darthemed posted:

Since everyone contributing to this thread seems quite well-informed, I have to ask: who are the worst offenders when it comes to overuse of tinkly piano? It seems like this trend has died down quite a bit since the '90s (I'm looking at you, Forrest Gump score)

You should probably forgive Forrest Gump, given that it's a change in style from the composer of Back to the Future and Predator. I actually like that score quite a bit because of the break in tone from Silvestri at the time.

Darthemed
Oct 28, 2007

"A data unit?
For me?
"




College Slice

Darko posted:

You should probably forgive Forrest Gump, given that it's a change in style from the composer of Back to the Future and Predator. I actually like that score quite a bit because of the break in tone from Silvestri at the time.

Yeah, it's a change in style, but I watched Back to the Future and Who Framed Roger Rabbit? so often as a kid that the similarities between Silvestri's cue style in those started to get just a bit too noticeable for me (e.g., the tunnel scenes in BttF2 and WFRR?), and dropping the bombastic elements of that era of his work wasn't quite enough to un-sour me. I'd go with his score for Flight of the Navigator as the score that diverges most from his usual style (though I feel I should qualify that I'm not very familiar with the bulk of his work; Silvestri is seriously prolific).

Silvestri's Flight of the Navigator score also appeals to me on a personal level because it feels like he was trying to channel Jerry Goldsmith with the electronics that it incorporated, and I've got a soft spot even for Goldsmith's weaker scores (Sebastian and The Swarm jump to mind).

Past Tense Ragu
Oct 17, 2005

I really like the score in Joon-ho Bong movies. Especially Memories of Murder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o_F8org4vs


The score for The Host is pretty similar despite a different composer. They seem to have a pretty defined taste right now in South Korea.

Fatkraken
Jun 23, 2005

Fun-time is over.
Turns out James Horner doesn't only copy from himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXQ-eZqnVe0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisCy_raxGA&t=240s

One of the main themes from Willow is based very closely on a Bulgarian folk song. I know a lot of composers do this especially in film music (there's a Joe Hisashi piece in Nausicaa which literally lifts a good solid 10-15 seconds from Handel's Sarabande, down to arrangement and instrumentation), but it's frustrating to see people praised for their abilities as composers of melodies when too much of the time they are rearranging or directly quoting an existing melody without proper credit.

Fatkraken fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Dec 20, 2012

headrest
May 1, 2009
My personal favorite film score of all time has to be from The Mummy (1999). Jerry Goldsmith's score is just perfect. Sure, its Egyptian-sounding (half steps, slidy-strings, etc) but it just seems to carry the weight of 3000 years of ancient history in it. From the very opening shot down the pyramid, you know that Egypt is loving powerful and scary. Great use of brass and choir.

My absolute favorite moment in the score has to be O'Connel's hero theme (7:09 here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh8ihtzzNtU). To me, this is more iconic and memorable than Indiana Jones' theme. Christ, my nine-year old self ran around the house fighting imaginary mummies with this blasting in the background.

Definitely an example of a score that is vastly superior to the film it was in (though I do love me some Mummy).

I also find it interesting when film scores follow rock chord progressions; an example of this would be the main hereo's theme in Lord of the Rings (I don't know the track name, but it's bombast and plays during Fellowship when the 9 of them get together and walk by the camera). That main chords of that song are quite rock based: you have a Am C Am, and then it goes in to the all-too-typical four chords Am F C G (as seen in MGMT's Kids, Avril Lavrigne's Complicated, Toto's Africa, etc etc). It's sneaky, but it definitely hits those chords and I'm sure that has a lot to do with how memorable and thrilling the tune is.

Hewlett
Mar 4, 2005

"DANCE! DANCE! DANCE!"

Also, drink
and watch movies.
That's fun too.

The Mummy score is the third CD I ever owned; it's a winner. I could probably hum that whole thing from memory. The best part is, Silvestri's Mummy Returns score is just as good, even though he self-plagiarizes from it later (the themes for both this and The Avengers are practically the same at different tempos).

Dissapointed Owl
Jan 30, 2008

You wrote me a letter,
and this is how it went:

headrest posted:

My personal favorite film score of all time has to be from The Mummy (1999). Jerry Goldsmith's score is just perfect. Sure, its Egyptian-sounding (half steps, slidy-strings, etc) but it just seems to carry the weight of 3000 years of ancient history in it. From the very opening shot down the pyramid, you know that Egypt is loving powerful and scary. Great use of brass and choir.

My absolute favorite moment in the score has to be O'Connel's hero theme (7:09 here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh8ihtzzNtU). To me, this is more iconic and memorable than Indiana Jones' theme. Christ, my nine-year old self ran around the house fighting imaginary mummies with this blasting in the background.

Definitely an example of a score that is vastly superior to the film it was in (though I do love me some Mummy).

I also find it interesting when film scores follow rock chord progressions; an example of this would be the main hereo's theme in Lord of the Rings (I don't know the track name, but it's bombast and plays during Fellowship when the 9 of them get together and walk by the camera). That main chords of that song are quite rock based: you have a Am C Am, and then it goes in to the all-too-typical four chords Am F C G (as seen in MGMT's Kids, Avril Lavrigne's Complicated, Toto's Africa, etc etc). It's sneaky, but it definitely hits those chords and I'm sure that has a lot to do with how memorable and thrilling the tune is.

Haven't seen that movie since I was 14. Was immediately overcome with a nostalgia rush from O'Connel's theme :3:

It's a really solid soundtrack.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



ComposerGuy posted:

Randy Newman has been known to employ this as well, though it certainly doesn't dominate his works. Pleasantville comes to mind as a stand-out example, which is also an example of his lean towards Americana-style scoring (he's basically New Aaron Copland in that regard).

I feel this is slightly unfair to Copland.

And, I'll say it, and I prepare to be mocked : I god drat love the soundtrack to The Last of the Mohicans. Yes, I know the main theme is trad (heavily modified from The Gael), but it just works so well and ughhhhh... If you haven't heard it, try this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pCv7k_Hzvg

Yeah, I am a giant god drat cliche, but I still love it.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

One of my most annoying pet peeves is people who judge a score based on how "hummable" it is. Essentially, there's an "it's only good if I remember it" way of determining quality that doesn't make much sense.

The scores people remember as hummable are actually the "chorus" sections of movies they already love, and have seen 50 times, typically. And are also typically played constantly in the advertising for said movie.

It's especially obvious in that some of the better sections of the scores for said movies wouldn't even be "hummable" for the same person. Everyone knows the Empire March from Star Wars, as marching bands and media for the film and other commercials play it over and over, but how many people, relatively, would be able to hum the asteroid theme, as amazing as it is ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZTnA0ESKMI )?

The first time I remember this starting was around the time of Spider-man when people were complaining that he didn't have a recognizable theme you could "hum" like Elfman's Batman, ignoring that Batman's theme was embedded in the public consciousness with the advertising for the movie before the movie even came out (and then the secondary theme was drilled into our heads via it being made into the main Animated Series theme which we watched daily). Modern movies typically don't have the same type of advertising and marketing tie ins as movies in the 80s/90s did, so you don't as often have cartoons that play the themes over and over again ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hFoR0ziYFc ), or as many tie in commercials playing themes with visuals from the films ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10RkOeiBnGE ), in a relative sense - so themes are less "hummable" for that reason in general (unless you're already attached to them).

ComposerGuy
Jul 28, 2007

Conspicuous Absinthe

Darko posted:

The first time I remember this starting was around the time of Spider-man when people were complaining that he didn't have a recognizable theme you could "hum" like Elfman's Batman, ignoring that Batman's theme was embedded in the public consciousness with the advertising for the movie before the movie even came out (and then the secondary theme was drilled into our heads via it being made into the main Animated Series theme which we watched daily).

The funny thing is that Spider-Man absolutely DID have a theme...and it played all the drat time in those movies. It's eight notes long and consists exclusively of whole and half notes, but it's there, and I always thought it was staggeringly obvious (though obviously others did not), and it can certainly be hummed.

headrest
May 1, 2009

Darko posted:

One of my most annoying pet peeves is people who judge a score based on how "hummable" it is. Essentially, there's an "it's only good if I remember it" way of determining quality that doesn't make much sense.

The scores people remember as hummable are actually the "chorus" sections of movies they already love, and have seen 50 times, typically. And are also typically played constantly in the advertising for said movie.

It's especially obvious in that some of the better sections of the scores for said movies wouldn't even be "hummable" for the same person. Everyone knows the Empire March from Star Wars, as marching bands and media for the film and other commercials play it over and over, but how many people, relatively, would be able to hum the asteroid theme, as amazing as it is ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZTnA0ESKMI )?

Whoa whoa, I could hum the asteroid field song all day. Needless to say, I often overwhelm people and make them feel uncomfortable when I do, also the key changes are tricky.

I think "hummable" scores are perfectly reasonable to expect when the characters or situations the score is trying to represent are equally "drawable"... That is, iconic characters (spider-man, Indiana jones), easily recreated in the minds eye, seem to go best when there are memorable auditory representations as well. Whereas non "drawable" characters or movies, like Pride and Prejudice or The Kings speech, don't have the same expectations for what the score should do. I'm not saying a score can't be great without being hummable (although I find your asteroid field example misses the mark, perhaps maybe Gandalf's death suite in Fellowship, or Galadriels theme? Apologies for using only LOTR songs), I'm just saying I understand the criticism when it's aimed at movies like ASM.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

headrest posted:

Whoa whoa, I could hum the asteroid field song all day. Needless to say, I often overwhelm people and make them feel uncomfortable when I do, also the key changes are tricky.

I think "hummable" scores are perfectly reasonable to expect when the characters or situations the score is trying to represent are equally "drawable"... That is, iconic characters (spider-man, Indiana jones), easily recreated in the minds eye, seem to go best when there are memorable auditory representations as well. Whereas non "drawable" characters or movies, like Pride and Prejudice or The Kings speech, don't have the same expectations for what the score should do. I'm not saying a score can't be great without being hummable (although I find your asteroid field example misses the mark, perhaps maybe Gandalf's death suite in Fellowship, or Galadriels theme? Apologies for using only LOTR songs), I'm just saying I understand the criticism when it's aimed at movies like ASM.

You missed the point. I asked how many people, relatively, can hum the Asteroid theme as compared to the Star Wars march, not if -anyone- can hum it. "Hummable" comes from repetition, more than anything, and what peopel call "hummable" is simply the scroe they listened to the most (normally from seeing the movie or related media a ton).

Fatkraken
Jun 23, 2005

Fun-time is over.

Darko posted:

You missed the point. I asked how many people, relatively, can hum the Asteroid theme as compared to the Star Wars march, not if -anyone- can hum it. "Hummable" comes from repetition, more than anything, and what peopel call "hummable" is simply the scroe they listened to the most (normally from seeing the movie or related media a ton).

I disagree with this. There's a lot more to "hummableness" than just repetition. A catchy theme really can get into your head just from a couple of repetitions, while a more subtle one can play for hours and still depart from your mind seconds after it's over. You see it within the same movie, some bits of the score are substantially more memorable than others even if they get the same amount of play within the film (from seeing the film only, not being exposed from related media). I'm sure there are a hundred tricks composers use to write a memorable riff or leitmotif, but denying some are more memorable than others is silly.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Fatkraken posted:

I disagree with this. There's a lot more to "hummableness" than just repetition. A catchy theme really can get into your head just from a couple of repetitions, while a more subtle one can play for hours and still depart from your mind seconds after it's over. You see it within the same movie, some bits of the score are substantially more memorable than others even if they get the same amount of play within the film (from seeing the film only, not being exposed from related media). I'm sure there are a hundred tricks composers use to write a memorable riff or leitmotif, but denying some are more memorable than others is silly.

I'd agree with that - but the counterpoint is showing me one person who has ever made that "hummable" statement that isn't actually basing it on a film that they already like.

Since some bad movies have some of the best scores, why are those scores never as "memorable" as the ones from movies those people have watched over and over again?

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Hewlett
Mar 4, 2005

"DANCE! DANCE! DANCE!"

Also, drink
and watch movies.
That's fun too.

Darko posted:

I'd agree with that - but the counterpoint is showing me one person who has ever made that "hummable" statement that isn't actually basing it on a film that they already like.

Since some bad movies have some of the best scores, why are those scores never as "memorable" as the ones from movies those people have watched over and over again?

I can't really relate to this, since there are days when I still get Black Hole, John Carter, ASM and Wing Commander themes in my head.

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