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Zeether posted:There's a game on Steam Greenlight called Heaven Variant that looks like some kind of cross between Einhander and Thunder Force. The devs have apparently been rehauling the gameplay or something but the game looks pretty awesome. You had me at attack jet swinging energy sword.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:00
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Sizone posted:For other platforms, I really liked Sine Mora, but I have weird tastes. If you play it with a controller that has rapid fire, it goes from being a poorly designed piece of poo poo to instantly being a pretty good game with its share of bullshit moments. Weird to see the entire first page showing so much love for euroshumps, I love Tyrian and Raptor and Jets 'n' Guns, but that's a sub genre that is usually considered anathema. Euro-shmups are some of my favorite shmups, I always found it weird that there was so much dislike for them. Sure most are garbage, but Tyrian and Raptor and Jets 'n' Guns are amazing. UN Squadron is pretty sweet too. I like most non bullet hell Japanese shmups. Raiden 2 is still a classic along with 1942. Jamestown is probably the only bullet hell game that I like. Precise movements and patterns are great and all, but my favorite part of these games is just blasting through baddies with fun weapons.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:14
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Bovineicide posted:I would totally be up for Spriggan, because Compile has the best drat upgrade systems. Bizhawk has a built-in recorder as well, so making videos is a non-issue. I never played it before last night, and holy poo poo this is the best Compile game. Thinking it would be cool to go through all 4 Naxat Summer Carnival games. So that would be Spriggan, Recca, Alzadick (yeah, "all ze dick", that is what it is called), and Nexzr Special. Guess I should probably set up a thread for that, response has been less than overwhelming, but enough to truck on. If those horrible kids that hang out in YCS catch on, there should be some decent competition. Not really sure of the format, either one game a week or one game every other week. Old school score mechanics don't take too long to wrap your head around, being shoot everything and don't die. Probably the biggest obstacles will be the getting the hang of the weapon system in Spriggan and not getting seizures from Recca.
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Dec 8, 2012 08:09
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Giga Wing. Do Giga Wing.
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Dec 8, 2012 08:11
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Giga Wing. Do Giga Wing. Maybe for second or third go. How's that running under MAME? Accessibility is kind of a big thing, that kinda rules out Naomi board stuff and pretty much everything after, also, really, Titan board stuff and everything after. I know Mars Matrix runs decently, even on my awful laptop, so that could definitely be an option.
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Dec 8, 2012 09:39
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Giga Wing is a CPS2 game.
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Dec 8, 2012 10:11
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Giga Wing is a CPS2 game. You are correct. Giga Wing, Progear, Mars Matrix and 1944 for the second go, perhaps?
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Dec 8, 2012 10:40
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For what it's worth, Dangun Feveron has a caravan mode. I haven't seen any other Cave games with that feature, yet.
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Dec 9, 2012 22:12
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Let the Carnival begin. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3521932
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Dec 10, 2012 13:03
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Tezzeract posted:Euro-shmups are some of my favorite shmups, I always found it weird that there was so much dislike for them. Sure most are garbage, but Tyrian and Raptor and Jets 'n' Guns are amazing. UN Squadron is pretty sweet too. The reason people dislike euroshmups is that they're really fairly sloppily designed (often requiring you to tank a few hits, ship intertia) and don't place much emphasis on anything like a 1cc. There's nothing conceptually wrong with "shmup where you can buy upgrades", and Guwange made a lifebar work. A good euroshmup is theoretically possible. It's also down to a little bit of Ikaruga Syndrome where a fairly mediocre game gets a lot of praise because it's all people have been exposed to - Cave's lineup usually being poorly represented by that one poorly compressed video of Futari on God mode. Not the game's fault in of itself. Sizone posted:Maybe for second or third go. How's that running under MAME? Giga Wing is just fine under MAME. Dominic White posted:You're right. It's a great one - one of the best-reviewed shmups in years. Well gently caress me if some shithead games journalist who played Ikaruga once, proclaimed that it was for "fans of the genre" and has never played another shmup in his life gave it 9 out of 10 thumbs up then it must be a good game, right? I'm not saying a drat word about Sine Mora but reviews are the worst thing to turn to in niche genres. These people are barely coming around to accepting that firing an EOTeched assault rifle endlessly at brown people is getting a bit old in the most dominant genre in gaming since Doom, how the hell are they going to know anything worth mentioning in a genre that's been out of the mainstream for decades? danbo fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 13:17
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I like euroshmups for a completely different reason than bullet hell shmups. Euro games usually have an emphasis on getting and equipping new weapons and stuff which is fun, Tyrian was neat for the customization aspects but yeah the actual gameplay in a shmup where your ship does not control like a balloon is a lot more fun. I heard one of the Death Smiles releases has an RPG mode where they combine the two but I haven't played that.
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Dec 10, 2012 13:21
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I like euroshmups for a completely different reason than bullet hell shmups. Euro games usually have an emphasis on getting and equipping new weapons and stuff which is fun, Tyrian was neat for the customization aspects but yeah the actual gameplay in a shmup where your ship does not control like a balloon is a lot more fun. You might want to give Fuzzical Fighter a try. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzical_Fighter
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Dec 10, 2012 15:49
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Tiger Schwert posted:Well gently caress me if some shithead games journalist who played Ikaruga once, proclaimed that it was for "fans of the genre" and has never played another shmup in his life gave it 9 out of 10 thumbs up then it must be a good game, right? It is a niche genre specifically because its players hiss and bat their paws at any and all attention it gets from the lamestream, you get that, right this isn't to say that you can't criticize games, but criticizing games based on how much the filthy casuals enjoyed them is dumb as hell. Say that the hitboxes are indistinct, or that the particle effects distract your focus, but for gently caress's sake dont whine about popular media outlets actually noticing that shmups exists for once.
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Dec 10, 2012 16:02
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DolphinCop posted:It is a niche genre specifically because its players hiss and bat their paws at any and all attention it gets from the lamestream, you get that, right I think the point is is that most mainstream video game reviewers don't know jack poo poo about the genre or what is considered good and bad to fans of the genre so their reviews tend to mean nothing. You see this a lot with some of the more 'technical' genres, too. Fightning Games and RTS's often have completely meaningless reviews to really hardcore fans of the genre because the reiewers don't know what those fans are looking for in games. Which is why a game like Skullgirls which the game reviewer knows is supposed to be a super technical fighting game for fighting game fans but the reviewer doesn't actually know whether its good or not gets great reviews but then the game comes out and most hardcore fans hate it. This is basically the same thing as with Ikaruga.
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Dec 10, 2012 16:26
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ChewyLSB posted:You see this a lot with some of the more 'technical' genres, too. Fightning Games and RTS's often have completely meaningless reviews to really hardcore fans of the genre because the reiewers don't know what those fans are looking for in games. Which is why a game like Skullgirls which the game reviewer knows is supposed to be a super technical fighting game for fighting game fans but the reviewer doesn't actually know whether its good or not gets great reviews but then the game comes out and most hardcore fans hate it. This is basically the same thing as with Ikaruga. From where I was standing Skullgirls seemed more like the opposite: reviewers hated it because they thought they'd been promised a casual fighting game and what they actually got was a highly technical fg with somewhat more comprehensive tutorials than the rest of the genre. The general point stands, though. I think another part of it is that niche genres are often dominated by a few companies, and while mainstream attention may grow the genre, it may also sway those developers into making watered down, simpler, or more casual games, effectively "killing" a specific series for its original audience. I think this fear is generally exaggerated, because some new enthusiast developer will often pick up the slack (like Reverge Labs to Capcom), but it's not entirely misplaced either.
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Dec 10, 2012 16:41
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think another part of it is that niche genres are often dominated by a few companies, and while mainstream attention may grow the genre, it may also sway those developers into making watered down, simpler, or more casual games, effectively "killing" a specific series for its original audience. I think this fear is generally exaggerated, because some new enthusiast developer will often pick up the slack (like Reverge Labs to Capcom), but it's not entirely misplaced either. Even if we admit the barest possibility that this was true once, indie gaming destroyed it years ago. You are safe, shmup game player. The casuals are not amassing at the gates to rip the last hardcore game from your cold dead hands. This is really what defines genre Grognards: the failure to understand that multiple styles can exist in a single genre without edging one out. You should already be aware that the Touhou series failed to pulverize the Gradius style into dust. Last I checked, the Euroshmup hadn't edged out the last single-hit-point shmup and ruined the entire genre forever!! Hardcore and casual games coexist. It's even true in super mainstream genres! Halo's release kicked off a fad where almost every fps game after it featured regenerating health in some way. That didn't stop Serious Sam 3 from releasing to a mainstream audience with a more traditional health/armor system, though! Venuz Patrol fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 16:58
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DolphinCop posted:It's even true in super mainstream genres! Halo's release kicked off a fad where almost every fps game after it featured regenerating health in some way. That didn't stop Serious Sam 3 from releasing to a mainstream audience with a more traditional health/armor system, though! On the other hand you'd be crazy to claim that Quake/UT-style arena games are anywhere near as common, or that the ones that do exist are anywhere near as populated as they used to be. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 17:04
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DolphinCop posted:Even if we admit the barest possibility that this was true once, indie gaming destroyed it years ago. You are safe, shmup game player. The casuals are not amassing at the gates to rip the last hardcore game from your cold dead hands. Who are you even arguing against here?
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Dec 10, 2012 17:05
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Yay, a new shmup thread! Pouring a forty for Sleepy's great OP from the original though. Whenever I'm reminded that shmups exist I spend a month trying to 1cc DDP, then I get frustrated, play Ketsui and have a way better time. Everybody play Ketsui. Sine Mora was really disappointing. The ship is slow and plodding, I keep crashing into enemies, and you have to rely on the bullet time mechanic for the bosses, which means if you run out you're pretty much screwed or have to spam your remaining bombs. Not to mention you have a distracting plot that's totally all over the place. The boss designs are amazing though, so I guess Grasshopper held up their end. Tuxedo Catfish posted:On the other hand you'd be crazy to claim that Quake/UT-style arena games are anywhere near as common, or that the ones that do exist are anywhere near as populated as they used to be. Fair point, when I was a kid arena FPSs were the hot thing, and now everyone's moved on and doesn't want to fire up Q3 anymore 
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Dec 10, 2012 17:12
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:On the other hand you'd be crazy to claim that Quake/UT-style arena games are anywhere near as common, or that the ones that do exist are anywhere near as populated as they used to be. A lot of blame for that falls on id and epic. Doom 3 and Quake 4 were objectively bad as a multiplayer experience compared to their predecessors. Not only was the game play poor but they shipped in a horrible state. Lack of bots, lack of maps, unoptimized, blah blah. Only after a slew of community maps, id maps, fixes, comp mods was Quake 4 anywhere near playable, and it wasn't as good as Quake 3 (which still lives on). UT suffered a similar fate and had other problems. Shmups on the other hand still get cranked out in Japan which has a thriving arcade scene. They show no signs of slowing down and I doubt that say cave is going to screw up that massively any time soon.
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Dec 10, 2012 17:13
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DolphinCop posted:It is a niche genre specifically because its players hiss and bat their paws at any and all attention it gets from the lamestream, you get that, right What does this have to do with what I was saying? Reviews of shmups by mainstream outlets are by and large worthless because most of the time, the reviewers don't know anything about shmups (because shmups are niche as hell, not a bad thing, not a good thing). And, well, we listen to these reviews based on an assumption that these people know what they're talking about. They'll be able to say "I had fun" or "I didn't have fun", might write a paragraph or two about the art style, but any analysis of the game mechanics beyond this is a refreshing, never-before-seen take on a genre? Forget it.
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Dec 10, 2012 21:24
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Tiger Schwert posted:What does this have to do with what I was saying? "People who know nothing about shmups" are going to be the vast majority of the people who play a shmup made for wider release. Those Reviews are relevant to them as people who are new to the genre, and Those Reviews are what Those People look at when they're deciding what they want to buy next. You're pushing against unknowledgeable mainstream reviewers reviewing games in your genre, except that also pushes against introducing anybody to the genre in the first place, and then there's a destructive feedback loop that just tightens up until it's forty sweaty dudes in a basement arguing about hit boxes. I seriously doubt that you need these mainstream reviews in the first place, considering that you are probably ＃１ ｓｈｍｕｐ ｇａｍｅｒ ｕｌｔｒａ and you can watch a trailer for any game and know more or less immediately whether or not its style will appeal to your fine-tuned sensibilities. To put it another way, these reviews just aren't for you. Kick back a bit, accept that brainless monkeys are writing reviews for games you don't like, and maybe hope that the high review scores will at least attract some new people with cool ideas to the genre.
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Dec 10, 2012 21:59
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DolphinCop posted:"People who know nothing about shmups" are going to be the vast majority of the people who play a shmup made for wider release. Those Reviews are relevant to them as people who are new to the genre, and Those Reviews are what Those People look at when they're deciding what they want to buy next. You're pushing against unknowledgeable mainstream reviewers reviewing games in your genre, except that also pushes against introducing anybody to the genre in the first place, and then there's a destructive feedback loop that just tightens up until it's forty sweaty dudes in a basement arguing about hit boxes. To be fair I don't think that was ever his argument. I think his argument was, at the end of the day, saying that 'A mainstream reviewer giving Sine Mora a good review doens't mean jack poo poo to the people in this thread' when Dominic White was defending the game based solely on reviews. I haven't played the game so I don't really know.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:05
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DolphinCop posted:You should already be aware that the Touhou series failed to pulverize the Gradius style into dust. Eh... last I checked, anime girls flying through bullet mazes are far more prevalent than slower-paced side-scrolling shooters with mostly aimed shots and tons of environmental hazards these days. R-Type and Gradius are now the exception, not the rule. There's nothing wrong with this, genres evolve, but it's hard to argue that shmup fans have decided what they want and it involves a shitload of bullets and moe.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:10
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Please do not let us have the loving Video Game Elitist conversation in here. All he was saying is that you shouldn't really be listening to reviewers without a lot of experience in the genre to do a thorough review of the game. There's nothing revolutionary about this. sethsez posted:R-Type and Gradius are now the exception, not the rule. If I remember correctly DariusBurst:AC did gangbusters in japan thanks to it's radical cabinet (and awesome scoring system, so I'm told) and now it has a US Release s I wouldn't be suprised if we see people going back to the Classical Space Shooter well for a while.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:18
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Rejecting reviews as irrelevant to a discussion requires you to reject their experiences with it, which is strictly a Video Game Elitist Thing. I guess this wasn't coming through in my posts? Well, here it is. Dominic White, no poo poo, said "a lot of people are enjoying this game, as evidenced by those there major reviews", and the response was "those people don't matter", so, hmm
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Dec 10, 2012 22:28
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No it means you reject their review of it, which is a written article posted on the internet for the purposes of providing purchase information. Good on them if they liked it, and I honestly thought for a Euroshmup Sine Mora was alright. But you should not listen to them if they say that "this is an objectively good shmup". We don't want another loving Ikaruga situation where an ok but pretty dull game gets hailed as the second coming of Shmup Jesus by a bunch of people who really are not in a position to say such a thing.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:34
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Man what is it with you talking about moe bullet-streaming games replacing spaceship environmental hazard-style shmups when you can have both? I mean check this poo poo out  Aside from watching my dad play Galaga when I was pretty much just a baby, Parodius for the SNES was my first and for the longest time only shmup. While being an air-borne penguin shooting down land-locked penguins and sometimes octopi and cats was pretty loving awesome to l'il kid me, man, did that game ever do a good job of turning me off the genre for years to come. It was always pretty fun at first, when it was nice and easy, but once the difficulty starts ramping up you only need to die once and bam, you lose all upgrades and return to being slow as a snail so you cannot avoid both bullets and environmental hazards at the same time, and the resulting cavalcade of deaths will end a good run in minutes. Hell, I don't even remember ever beating the game as a kid, but I do vividly remember getting bumrushed by cherry trees, and to this day I still have an intense hatred for those weird Japanese ghost umbrellas that ruined literally all my runs. I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea just how representative Parodius is to its style of shmups in terms of gameplay and difficulty, but after playing it I never felt like looking at a Gradius-style shmup ever again, and it hasn't been until a couple years back when I started wondering what this whole weird Touhou thing was about that I started to rediscover the whole shmup genre for myself. Anyway the point of this dumb story is that Galaga is objectively the best shmup ever made.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:55
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sethsez posted:There's nothing wrong with this, genres evolve, but it's hard to argue that shmup fans have decided what they want and it involves a shitload of bullets and moe. This is basically why I can't admit I like modern shoot-em-ups in polite company outside of games like Sine Mora and Jamestown. I've started to look into more recent doujins like Crimzon Clover (which I will have to get when I have the cash to spare again), but some of them just looooooove to sneak the moe/pedophilia/whatever poo poo in there like Hellsinker. Apparently you weaponize naked little girls in that game  I like Cave games, but now that there are other companies making good commercial-grade shmups again, I will usually err on the side of the devs that don't pander to loving pedophiles.And for the record, hating on Treasure is the most eye-rollingly YCS thing I've heard since, "Half-Life 2 is overrated brah  " What the gently caress, SA?
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Dec 10, 2012 23:20
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ZackHoagie posted:We don't want another loving Ikaruga situation Ikaruga wasn't just a game, it was a loving situation that "we" didn't want, man It's perfectly fine to dislike Ikaruga. It ain't perfect. I hardly think that people enjoying it (and in droves, apparently), and shooters like Sine Mora, calling them both "objectively good shmups", is somehow heralding the doom of a genre that was already dying or dead everywhere that wasn't Japan. It just means that there are folks out there with different tastes and expectations from a shmup.
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Dec 10, 2012 23:58
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fivegears4reverse posted:Ikaruga wasn't just a game, it was a loving situation that "we" didn't want, man Shmups are as dead in Japan as they are anywhere else, I'd say. Cave makes more jewelry than they do videogames now, but there is still an adequately-sized, loyal contingent of otaku shut-ins that won't play anything but the freshest fruit from the loins of Akihabara-tan-sama 
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Dec 11, 2012 00:08
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sethsez posted:There's nothing wrong with this, genres evolve, but it's hard to argue that shmup fans have decided what they want and it involves a shitload of bullets and moe. That's really two crowds being pandered to, shmup fans won't look to closely at the cover of Cave's newest game, and anime fans don't care about whats in the box as long as there's an anime girl on the cover. Its not like Touhou became popular in the west because of a huge demand for bullet hell games. Bovineicide posted:This is basically why I can't admit I like modern shoot-em-ups in polite company outside of games like Sine Mora and Jamestown. I'm not so sure if a game with a plot about furries, rape victims, and genocide is such a step up.
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Dec 11, 2012 00:28
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Bovineicide posted:This is basically why I can't admit I like modern shoot-em-ups in polite company outside of games like Sine Mora and Jamestown. I've started to look into more recent doujins like Crimzon Clover (which I will have to get when I have the cash to spare again), but some of them just looooooove to sneak the moe/pedophilia/whatever poo poo in there like Hellsinker. Apparently you weaponize naked little girls in that game I've always explained it away as just these games being so niche these are the depths they must sink to to keep selling games. Which isn't really much of a lie. Probably not going to dip into Muchi Muchi Pork or anything without at least a little bit of mental preparation, though. To be frank, shmups are no worse than most modern fighting games, and I doubt you'd really get judged in front of the average person for playing the latest Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive. (You'd get judged by some people, but probably not for the T&A factor) Treasure's games are perfectly competent, but highly overrated due to underexposure of other games, like I said. HL2 is overrated too, but...
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Dec 11, 2012 00:45
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Bovineicide posted:This is basically why I can't admit I like modern shoot-em-ups in polite company outside of games like Sine Mora and Jamestown. I don't know if you noticed this but Sine Mora interrupts itself every 2 minutes to have text about rape appear next to the portrait of a buffalo between the Battle Garegga inspired shooting. Really I think we'd need a double blind test to find out how "normies" reactby comparing, say, Buffalo Rape to the end of stage splash screen where Palm has his head resting on Recco's boobs, and her boobs are two or three times larger than his head, before deciding which game is more appropriate for water cooler chat.
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Dec 11, 2012 01:07
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Tiger Schwert posted:To be frank, shmups are no worse than most modern fighting games, and I doubt you'd really get judged in front of the average person for playing the latest Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive. (You'd get judged by some people, but probably not for the T&A factor) Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive are creepy, but not nearly as creepy as flying 12 year old maids who show off their ~pantsu~ and blush. Touhou's creepiness mostly exists in the fandom rather than the games themselves (though I haven't touched the series since PoFV), but companies like Cave followed that fandom as hard as they could. I can't think of any fighting game with a tagline half as creepy as "death smiles at us all, lolis smile back." Also, where is this "true shmup fans think Treasure is only okay" thing coming from? Ikaruga was heralded as one of the best things to happen to the genre long before anyone in the relative mainstream caught wind of it. It's only as the years went by that the grognards started turning against it. It's fine to dislike the game, but I'm seeing some people act like the shmup community hadn't embraced it whole-heartedly when it came out and it was only mainstream reviewers going nuts over it. sethsez fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 01:10
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Bovineicide posted:now that there are other companies making good commercial-grade shmups again List them. quote:And for the record, hating on Treasure is the most eye-rollingly YCS thing I've heard since, "Half-Life 2 is overrated brah Treasure makes bad shmups. fivegears4reverse posted:Ikaruga wasn't just a game, it was a loving situation that "we" didn't want, man How many of the people who deify Ikaruga as a watershed in shmup history have ever actually finished it, or any of the games it allegedly superseded? How many of the people who talked about Radiant Silvergun as if it was the holy grail of shooters bothered to buy the XBLA remake? I wager that the answer to both those questions is "almost none". Games like these catch on with people who don't play shmups because there's enough on the surface for them to pontificate about that doesn't require them to understand or even play the games themselves.
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Dec 11, 2012 01:12
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Why does every iteration of this thread have to be like this? 
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Dec 11, 2012 01:14
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I have been wanting to know about a particular game for EVER. I played the arcade game as a kid in South Africa, in maybe 1988-1993? Things I remember about it: -Vertical shmup -First boss was a UFO -second or third boss was two very large fighter jets that shot homing missiles that you had to shoot down -One of the power ups was an extra life, one was an extra bomb -alt fire was a bomb, which, I think, shot a missile ahead of you then exploded. I can't remember if there were shooty power ups. It was not raiden. Not raiden!
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Dec 11, 2012 01:17
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I like shumps, i like Radiant Silvergun, it's a fun shmop. Idk why everyone hates it suddenly?
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Dec 11, 2012 01:22
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:How many of the people who deify Ikaruga as a watershed in shmup history have ever actually finished it, or any of the games it allegedly superseded? How many of the people who talked about Radiant Silvergun as if it was the holy grail of shooters bothered to buy the XBLA remake? I wager that the answer to both those questions is "almost none". Games like these catch on with people who don't play shmups because there's enough on the surface for them to pontificate about that doesn't require them to understand or even play the games themselves. All this, and you still haven't answered what is really wrong with people liking those games. Instead, you're making assumptions of everyone you're disagreeing with. This same conversation played out after people said Einhander/R-Type Delta/Mars Matrix/Gradius V/NameAModernShmup was the best shooter of all time, and it is filled with vitriol every time. Not entirely surprising from a mostly dying genre worshipped by primarily by adherents who see "casuals" as an actual physical threat to their enjoyment of scrolling slowly to the left or vertically while hitting a single button to fight back.
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Dec 11, 2012 01:22
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