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Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


theroachman posted:

Does a 100g gas bottle fit inside that pot?

Yes, but the 220g does not.

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Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Fitzy Fitz posted:

Wow, y'all are making my stove situation look sad. I just have some little knock-off thing that screws onto a 100g gas can. I have a tin pot that goes on top. No handles though. I stick a spoon into a loop on top and can kinda lift it off without burning myself.

No worries man, I used a pump-up Coleman for about 15 years until it turned into a blow torch.

I do just about all of my hiking food with the freezer bag method. For an insulated coozy I taped up a thermal foam envelope, so far I've been very pleased with how the whole system works.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Verman posted:

I'm the same way with bird hunting. Sometimes I'll drive by an area and think "man of only I had Stanley (my bird dog) with me and free time to hunt it"

A few years back while grouse hunting in the upper peninsula of Michigan, I found myself about a mile deep off the two track and into a quiet wooded area with a good deal of low feed and cover. It just felt perfect. I walked in and put up a bird every 20 feet or so. There were so many birds our dog had never been on that many at one time. He didn't know which one to follow and they just kept coming.

You should really tell me where this is so I can bring my dog and verify your claims....

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Verman posted:

Instead of payment I will gladly accept a photo of said dog.

Thanks! I've hunted pretty drat close to that spot before.



Only one of those dogs hunts, but he won't sit still unless we have a treat and there's no way the fat one can let a treat opportunity pass.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Fitzy Fitz posted:

I have some great new Salomons, but my heel slips in them. I'm gonna try some different socks this week before I go on a backpacking trip next weekend, but do you think heel lifts would help? I've never tried them.

I have this same problem with my new Salomons too. Whatever fabric they used on the new ones is rougher/scratchier where on the older pair I have (and still wear) its much plusher and softer.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Internet Explorer posted:

My wife and I are going snowshoeing for the first time this weekend. We were able to get into an REI class for next weekend but it is intermediate instead of beginner, so we want to at least get to the point where we can put on our snowshoes and not fall over.

It's our first winter sport as we're originally from an area that doesn't get snow. Anyone have any specific pointers? I was going to pick up a pair of snow pants like these since I don't really have anything equivalent. I do have thermals, which I know I will need to wear under them. I have more of a hiking shoe, that's not waterproof, so I was going to pick up a pair of proper winter boots like these. We were planning on renting the actual snowshoeing gear from REI for this weekend, they supply it for next weekend during the class. That includes snowshoes, gaiters, and poles.

Am I missing anything obvious, other than just your standard hiking gear like moisture-wicking shirt, fleece jacket, hat, sunglasses, sunblock, etc? Thanks hiking thread!

Snowshoes tend to be tough on the pants, specifically the inside of your ankle area. Since your gait isn't terribly wide the edge of the snowshoes can rub and tear into it. My MSR's, which have a serrated edge, really tore up my snowpants. For whatever reason it doesn't do that to my wool ones. I had a set of GoLite snowpants with a reinforced inside but it still got shredded. I don't use gaiters, so that might not be an issue for you.

I prefer Baffin boots myself. I've snowshoed in a range of others but the Baffins are well beyond anything else.

Snowshoeing is hard in any kind of snow. Really, really, hard. If you're breaking trail in two feet of powder you'll sweat like you wouldn't believe. Bring plenty of fluids. I was out a few days ago, it was only like 5F, and I was still sweating when I went off trail and we don't have poo poo for fresh snow. On the trail I was pleasantly warm in just a fleece and softshell.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Rime posted:

Gear chat time: I'm thinking of buying a few yards of cordura and making some prototype waxed 30L Klettersacks, something like this:



Because nobody except Topo Designs is making them anymore, and theirs max out at 25L and are gaudy:



I personally like the simplicity of the military style klettersack for backpacking in, uh, "unsavoury" locations. :airquote: Unlike modern tech woo packs, it's not a neon sign screaming "PLZ ROB ME, I HAVE WEALTH".

Think there's a market for this?

Fjallraven makes some very similar packs.



I too like the looks but I've only seen Fjallravens on the backs of proto-hipsters in major airports.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Internet Explorer posted:

In a pinch you can make a tent out of it. As long as you have some steel poles that weigh more than you do.

They can really hold up to some nasty weather though.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Rime posted:

Heh, I went to a presentation last night by Dick Cuthbert and Glenn Woodsworth, where they talked about exploring the unmapped coast range of BC back in the 1960's - in a canvas pup tent which leaked like a sieve and three men had to roll over simultaneously as there was so little room. :allears:

Thanks for the input erryone, I'll explore this market further. I'm really not down on the hipster bullshit bags. Just want something extremely simple which doesn't look like a neon sign.

I've canoed with Duluth Packs before, https://www.duluthpack.com/backpacks/canoe-packs . Until I just went to the website I had no idea they had so many packs. Those are made well but I hated life when portaging with them. They also look like something you'd pull out of the trunk of your Volvo once you arrive at your summer home in the Hamptons.



GoLite made a line of very simple packs. Unfortunately they're gone now but I'm sure someone else makes a light, simple, pack just like it.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


For incredibly nasty poo poo I always go to the laundromat. You can pump in $3 worth of quarters and let their equipment get all gunked up and nasty. Plus it tends to be easier on the fabrics than a top load washing machine.

Also, Fels Naphtha soap. My kid gets his clothes beyond nasty, a couple of days with that stuff on the stain and it's clean as can be.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


gohuskies posted:

I don't know what self-appointed arbiter made this "rule" up but it's absolutely not a rule. Whoever wants and asks for the right of way should get it. I am usually trail running and moving faster than nearly everyone else I encounter - with plenty of warning I politely alert them to my presence and ask for the pass, and I expect to get it 100% of the time no matter which direction anyone is going.

Agreed. I'm a fast hiker and follow the same guidelines. Though usually I can just take a few minute breather and let the opposite side side finish climbing.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


External frame supremacy.

I hate the people who leash their dogs until it shits, then they calmly walk away as if it's "not my dog taking a huge loving dump on the trail."

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Flambeau posted:

I tried a couple different Knorr packets this weekend. Teryaki lo mein with a pouch of thai chili tuna was drat tasty, while red beans and rice with salmon was passable.

Salmon talk. What kind of salmon? I can't stand tuna and most canned salmon I've tried seem to taste strangely tuna-ish. I've brought vac packed smoked salmon on trips before and loved it but I'd like to find a tuna substitute that isn't bad canned salmon.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


nominal posted:

Anybody been up around this area and have any advice?

You're in for a good trip. That's a really nice area. August can be weird, depending on the wind you might get super-hot dry air or freeze your rear end off. It's glacial shield so be prepared for some crazy rocky trails with cedar roots working hard to trip you up. A few weeks later and the pink salmon would be running in that area.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Dukket posted:

Anyone here backpack on Isle Royal? I'm just curious about what routes you took, time of the year and whatnot. We're hoping to go next year for a min of 6 nights with the last night being at the Rock Harbor Lodge. My initial thought was Windigo to Rock Harbor, mostly along the Green Ridge, but I've only just really started looking.

Either the start or end of the season cuz bugs

I've done trips in May and in August. May was nice, no bugs, but August was cool too. You can really fly on the ridges. The stretch from Rock Harbor to Daisy Farm can be pretty gnarly, especially when you're dealing with everyone else on the trail.

The shelters are a double edged sword. The screen doors are a definite bummer. But it's really nice to be in a cozy shelter when a thunderstorm blows through.

McCargo cove is still one of my favorite spots on the island. Lane Cove was cool too.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


ronaldreagan posted:

Oh yeah, this is another thing I didn't really consider when I was planning my trip but I would be more careful of in the future. If you come in on a big boat with a bunch of people, you're all leaving from the same spot at the same time and you end up kind of hiking in a pack to the same campgrounds. Some people are more social and it obviously thinned out eventually but I go into the woods to get away from people. If I was planning another trip I'd probably try to take a smaller transportation option to avoid starting out in a crowd.

Taking the Queen out of Copper Harbor is 3.5 hours on a clear day. On my last trip back it was more like a rolly-polly 5 hours. I had my scopolamine patch and didn't mind it. Unfortunately lots of folks in the back of the boat were quite sick. My next trip is going to be via the floatplane and I plan on doing end to end. Though I'll miss the German restaurant staff doing the dance when you pull back in to the harbor.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Nateron posted:

Has anyone here had any experience backpacking with kids? Besides outfitting them and doing less miles, more snacks, have stuff to do... Any other tips you guys could think of?

I'm planning a hike across the UP and the sons want to join for some of it.

I hiked a few miles into Grand Island with a 6 year old this past spring. 3 miles seemed to be his max. I was conservative with my mileage, but he hiked way less than I thought he could. Then he went in the tent, colored for 20 minutes, and fell asleep. Once he woke he was all good and we hiked the beaches and had fun. I had lots of snacks, a variety of snacks, and a variety of meal options. Whenever possible I had him help me, even if it was just laying stuff out for dinner.

We just did a 3000 ft elevation gain hike in Alaska and the key to getting through that hike was having him explain Pokemon to me. :staredog: That and the fossil bed waiting for us at the end. And goldfish. Lots of goldfish.



Yooper fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 28, 2017

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Hiked out to Pictured Rocks yesterday. Trail was pretty decent, a bit soggy in spots, no real snow yet.





I could hear the waves about half a mile away from the lake. The spray was flying up on top of the cliffs themselves, probably about 30 feet right there. Further down the beach was pretty much gone. You can see what's left of the "steps" heading to the lake. Note the pine trees laying in the water.



The impact of the waves on the cliffs shook everything. It was pretty wild. Ran into one pack of woefully unprepared folks with a bag of beef jerky and a cube of Busch Light. They were cool, shared a beer, but were cold.



Dog did not like dogcicles.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Verman posted:

Those waves look huge. Also it looks incredibly cold.

The waves were pretty monstrous. I'd say 12 feet coming in and bouncing up to maybe 25 feet. The cliffs at that point are all about 40 foot tall. Not so cold, about 28F, though the wind in the open areas was brutal.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Blind Rasputin posted:


3) a coat by Columbia called the wildcard that uses their Omni tech and Omni heat technology (I don’t know how good this stuff is). It is a bit thicker than the MontBell and they swear that silver reflective stuff inside is super warm, but I doubt their waterproofing or the silver stuff is any more than just a gimmick.


Do you guys have any thoughts on what would be the wisest choice here? Or other options that might work really well?

I'd stay away from the Columbia unless you're price sensitive. My wife picked up some boots with that omni tech and it was pretty underwhelming. Beyond that they lacked the fit and finish of a boot that was $40 more. I had an Omnitech toque and the "tech" is just little aluminum foiled printed fabric thingies that would do about nothing. Maybe it'd be a step up from generic department store jacket, but if you're already rocking a Montbell I'd stick with that and layers. My go to lately has been an OR softshell, Patagonia synthetic hoody, light fleece, and a baselayer if it drops below -10. My GoLite winter pants finally shredded so now I have to hunt for something that isn't ridiculous snowboarder setup.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Electoral Surgery posted:

Does anybody here do SAR? Care to share your experiences with it?

I have a funny SAR story that involves a 50k/50 mile trail run.

This was 3 years ago I think. It was a ridiculously hot day for a trail run. We had probably 200 runners for the 50k and about 50 for the 50 miler. It was our biggest year yet and our radio operators handled all the tracking of in-and-out at aid stations. The way the course goes is the 50k and 50 milers all run the same course then the 50 milers go back out and run a portion of it again in reverse. Because of the heat we had tons of 50 milers drop down to the 50k race and drop out. As the day went on our tracking list got more garbled but straightened itself out. Except for runner #34. (Fictional number to protect the idiot)

Runner #34 was shown checked in to all aid stations and back out. Except he never showed up at the 50 mile aid stations. We chalked this up to a busy course. His pace was good and he would've been running through at the same time the slow 50k people were coming back. Those folks tend to need more TLC at the end of the race so we just figured we missed the guy.

Fast forward to dark. He's the only guy on the course. The terrain is rugged. The runners don't have headlamps (they start with them and drop them off so they don't need to run at night). Now our sweeps are going out to clear the course and no one is finding this guy. The undergrowth is dense and we're seriously worried he's fallen off a cliff. So we call in SAR.

First the sheriff shows up with a trailer and 4-wheelers. Then the tacticlol guys (like 20) show up with dirt bikes and horses. They get a mobile HQ set up. At this point we're bystanders, but these guys are like the cover of a Prepper Magazine. Bandoliers. Velcro vests. BDU's. Digital Camo. This terrain is so nasty you have a hard time just hiking it, so I'm not sure what they planned on doing with 4-wheelers, dirt bikes, and horses. Finally the state police show up and then the magic happens.

So we'd kept calling the guys cell phone, but no answer, straight to voicemail. The State Police make a call and tell us that his phone was just pinged south of Milwaukee. They get the Wisconsin State Police to find the vehicle and pull it over just north of the Illinois border. They do a safety check. And there's our dude.

It seems after he checked out of the 50k aid station to head back out he changed his mind and just got in his car and left.

Everyone packed up and left. We realized that the SAR folks were woefully unprepared to actually find anyone on the trail that was incapacitated. They could handle stuff on or near back roads or where a person was known to be injured, but to actually find someone, well, if the dude was unconscious there was no way.

We've since tightened up protocol and changed procedure to prevent this, but basically if you hit your head on a rock and fall under a fern, you're fairly well hosed.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Bottom Liner posted:

You’d be surprised how easy Milky Way shots are when you’re somewhere really dark. 90% is that planning and patience with weather. My go to settings those were shot at: 20mm, f/1.8, 13 seconds exposure, ISO 3200. Focus manually and use the timer and bam, perfectly exposed galactic core.

Moar ultra photos!

I've still got one on my bucket list, either Voyageurs, Superior, or MT50 if I'm not volunteering.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Bottom Liner posted:

Holy poo poo Mammoth Cave

lot's more photos to come!

Moria is looking good since they kicked out those squatters.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Anyone have any recommendations on Isle of Skye, or that area of Scotland? Looking for something a bit out of the way, if possible.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Oakland Martini posted:

The Quiraing and Old Man of Storr are very popular hikes but they are honestly great. Just do them first thing in the morning before the crowds arrive. I also liked Oronsay Island, which I had all to myself for hours. There's nothing really out of the way on Skye, you can drive all the way around it in a day.

Awesome thanks. Enough stuff to do for a small family to spend a week? We're exploring a few different places, Alaska, Minnesota, or Scotland.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Thanks for all the info! Looks like we'll spend a solid week on Skye, southern part, and just explore the island. We'll have one full day in Edinburgh on the way back as well.

Renting a cute stone cottage not far from the water. Half the trip will be hikes, the other half allowing my wife to indulge her garden habit. Our first time in the UK, should be a great trip.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


I miss the old school longbeards hiking with wizard poles. Some of my earliest backpacking memories is running into what I'm assuming are old hippies with something out of a D&D adventure manual.

Speaking of poles, is there an REI equivalent in Scotland I can purchase some cheap hiking poles? I'd like to get a set before I head up to Skye but don't want to fly with mine.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Morbus posted:

Decathlon or Cotswold I guess? There are several hiking/climbing gear shops in Ft William if you pass through there on the way up. I saw a (single) pole of some sort on sale for 6 GBP in Nevisport there a few weeks ago, although that's kind of unusual. You probably shouldn't have any difficulty finding some for 30-40 GBP, maybe less if you look around.

Thanks!

The Ordnance Survey maps came yesterday, talk about some awesome maps.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


charity rereg posted:

They want $2800 up front for 4-6 weeks, and we'd have to drive it back approximately 600 miles when we're done from absolutely loving nowhere Canada/Maine. And the return location is an additional 300 miles from where I live.

I can straight up buy the same canoe (Wenona Minnesota 2) for $2800 cash and sell it when I'm done, but at that point there is literally no reason to buy a canoe new, so I guess I'm in the used market for ~18 foot 2 person canoes in the 30-40 pound range.

The graphite Minnesota looks pretty awesome but even that is 42 lbs. I picked up an older Wenonah for $900 on Craiglist last year. Probably weighs 55 lbs or so. You can also check with an outfitter about buying a previous year's model. I see a lot of places near boundary Waters doing that.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012




Skye Talk! My wife has veto'd too much Skye as she would like to explore Edinburgh a bit longer.

Day 1 : Recovery day, close to cottage. We're staying in Lusta.
Dunvegan Castle
Coral Beach
Broch's near Struan
Oronsay Island
Neist Point

Day 2 : Trumpan Church to Waternish Point (8.5 Miles total, may not go the whole way)

Day 3 : The Storr (Early)
Quirang
Dino Footprints
Portree Tuesday Bagpipes

Day 4 : Camasunary
Sgurr na Stri if weather bad other Blevin

What do you guys think? If need be I can short Edinburgh a day and risk the wrath of my wife.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Anyone have any experience with kid hiking boots? I'm seeing Keens, Merrel's, and not much else I recognize.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Pennywise the Frown posted:

Anyone know of any decent hikes within driving distance of SE Wisconsin? I went to Kettle Moraine Southern Unit last year and that wasn't too bad. I'd like to go backpacking as well. I have a pack from REI that I got maybe 12 years ago or so and I can't identify it. There are no tags or names on it. I got it cheap because I was really poor at the time so I don't even know if it's any good. I mean, it holds stuff just fine.

I want to do a lot of camping this year too. I have no one to go with me though so I'll probably be alone. I've never been backpacking but there has to be someplace in WI that I can do that.

Anyone familiar with the area?

How far north are you willing to go? 4 hours puts you at the Grand Island Trailhead, 5 in Munising at the Grand Island Ferry, 6 hours in Grand Marais to hike Pictured Rocks, 5.5 to the Porcupine's, and 6 to get to Hancock so you can take a floatplane to Isle Royale. :getin: There's also a bunch of NCT plus some shorter hikes like Craig Lake State Park and Mccormick Tract and such.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Nateron posted:

What about them? The selection isn’t as varied as adult footwear obviously but there’s some out there if you dig. Some of the larger retailers will carry house brands (sometimes made by the big names only without all the branded material).

The issues I’ve had is price and durability. I haven’t found a boot my kids won’t destroy in a summer (and I go 5 years). But, to be fair I expect that so I either buy accordingly or lower my expectations. If you take them backpacking like I do I tend to get them a better boot or trail runner. But for normal day to day state park stuff that’s your call.

Or I dunno if that was ur question.

Yup, that answers it. I'd hoped that I was missing something but the selection is just that limited. The reviews really slam the durability so I was hoping to find a better option. Hopefully he outgrows them before they fall apart.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Did a family trip up to Grand Marais, MI today and explored the eastern end of Pictured Rocks.





Grand Sable gorge.



Sable Falls.



Mouth of the Sable River.



Snow! Not enough to prevent a hike but there were still some spots where it was a foot deep.



One of three shipwrecks, we could only find two.





Lake erosion seriously ate away at the shoreline since the last time I visited.



NPS folks haven't been in yet.



At the far end of the dunes is where I took the first photos from. Weather was beautiful, mid 50's. No people. No bugs. Was very nice.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


DreadLlama posted:

Thanks for the info. Before I spend money, does anyone make a pant with a waterproof butt seat and water resistant / breathable fabric everywhere else? If not I'll buy the zions. But I'll feel pretty stupid if I do and it turns out there's pants better suited for $80 or whatever.

I own a variety of pants in that price range, Patagonia, North Face, REI, OR, Icebreaker, Fjallraven, and none of them have a waterproof rear end. The only pants I have with a waterproof rear end is my Marmot and Patagonia rainpants. Even if my rear end is properly soaked the fabric dries so quickly on most of those that I've never had an issue for long.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Skye update. It's awesome here. We're headed out to the Storr and the Quiraing shortly. My original plan was a bit ambitious for a 9 year old so we're toning it back. Looking like loch coruisk tomorrow then back to Edinburgh.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


pointsofdata posted:

It's great we had an amazing time there. The drive to Elgol and boat to Loch Coruisk was one of the highlights of our whole trip to Scotland.
This short walk to the sea was very pleasant, nothing spectacular but a nice break from the crowds at Storr, should be fine with a 9 year old and they will enjoy all the sheep:

https://goo.gl/maps/XZ37NtCGwRLnq1df9

You might find the Quiraing a bit scary with a young kid, it would be OK but there are so many people and it's a narrow, heavily eroded path.

Thanks man! Unfortunately I saw your post after we'd passed by. The Storr was totally shrouded in mist, but the kid liked the climb. Quiraing was packed but visible, though the kid didn't like the trail so we spent time finding dinosaur foot prints in staffin. Then Duntulm and now I'm waiting for the bag pipers in Portree. Loch Coruisk hike tomorrow. Skye is pretty awesome.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012




Loch Coruisk



Loch Coruisk looking back the other way



Quiraing. The mist was so thick at The Storr that one could see about 15 feet. We still hiked as high as we could but saw nothing.



Dun Beag. Hiking out to the various broch's was awesome. The kid really enjoyed it.



A different broch near Trumpan. Not nearly as well preserved as Dun Beag, but still a cool hike.

Skye was really great, though we underestimated how long it takes to get places. Between that and jet lag the hiking plans were scaled back. Loch Coruisk was really amazing and we had perfect weather. Edinburgh was cool to see but the Old Town was filled with tourists. We found out later the Queen was in town that day so that might explain the people.

The only bad experience we had was a Chinese tourist who bullied my wife out of his selfie shot. We just let him be so we didn't make a scene. Had some schadenfreude later when he fell off the National Monument of Scotland right onto his rear end and the whole crowd laughed at him. The obnoxious tourist thing seemed to be mostly the Chinese crowd, glad to see the US didn't take the medal for that one.

All the locals we met on Skye were super awesome. We saw a woman who had just hit and killed a stag with her car. We stopped to help but she was more interested in how our holiday was and what we thought of Skye. The hiking opportunities were endless there. It took some getting used to that one could just walk nearly anywhere on sheeps paths and such. One week wasn't nearly enough time.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Cannon_Fodder posted:

Camping/Hiking trip success!







Went to Marquette and stealth camped around the area.

I couldn't have asked for better weather or nicer spots.

My water bladder was basically unused, as it wouldn't really fit well in the 48L Osprey Kestrel pack. It sits in a funny spot, behind the rigging/frame and I couldn't quite wedge it in there while full. :shrug:

Oh well. It works when I take it mountainbiking so it's not a huge disappointment.


Thanks to you guys, I probably wouldn't have made it out if it wasn't for some of your practical advice.

Nice! You should've hit me up, I'd have bought you a beer up there. It's a really cool area and one that people still routinely get lost in. Almost weekly SAR goes out to get people or guides them in via GPS. You don't have to go very far west to get into the Mccormick Tract and a whole lot of nothing. Probably 600-750 square miles of woods.

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Yooper
Apr 30, 2012


Cannon_Fodder posted:

We were trying to keep a low profile. Stealth camping is less fun when you've got Ore To Shore* to contend with on the same weekend.

* = 2500 person MTB race over 48 or so miles (or so their site claims).

People tend to be pretty chill, even stealth camping and all. This weekend is the Marquette Trail 50 Ultramarathon, I work the aid stations and tend to not care what most folks do as long as they pick up after themselves.

The area has a weird mish-mash of cultures, on one side is the healthy-hiking-outdoorsy types who are mostly white collar or students. On the other is the miners and blue collar folks who you'll find on side by sides, dirt bikes, trucks, and such. Both have a vested interest in maintaining the outdoors but the cultural clash between the two groups can get ugly. Luckily most of the trails are too rough even for the stoutest our 4x4 vehicles. All in all it's a good area.

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